Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[Dmurphy]

Gurus,

What do the CPMFs and Army do with the all the stash of arms they keep recovering from militant hideouts every now and then?

[krishnan]

Gurus,

What do the CPMFs and Army do with the all the stash of arms they keep recovering from militant hideouts every now and then?

Not a guru, but i _think_ , they store it for investigation purpose and then use it.

[Neilz]

ah, thanks for explaining bob. do you have a pic somewhere ?

p.s. why call it an exaggeration though ? looks real enough !

you mean a pic of dhruv on tows? lemme check if its safe to post it here.
--------------------
exaggeration in the sense that those aren't the tows.
This is a better explanation.

Hi,

I guess what Bob mentioned about the "pentagonal" structure is in linked picture(from livefist). Watch the right most heli..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... h/1111.jpg

[Mayuresh]

I can't figure out how they lift the helicopter on to the trolley in India. It's a good bet that they make the pilot lift the craft and then some intrepid soul has to push the trolley under the skids and then let the pilot settle down on it . But these other gadgets put some bar between the skids and jack it up, or attach wheels and then jack up the wheel attachment.

Surely, you are joking, Mr. Feynman... Sorry Enqyoob I am sure they have something similar to the F1 pit-lane analogy, just thinking how they would do it if they ever need to tow the helicoptor in an operational scenario (away from home station)

The second question is:
How much of a cost and weight savings do the skids provide, given that the landing gear in the helicoptor does not need to be retracted? I am sure the designers would have worked the cost+weight savings vs. the advantages of the landing gear before designing the Dhruv, just want to get a peek into the guesstimated numbers if we have any

[Bob V]

Hi,

I guess what Bob mentioned about the "pentagonal" structure is in linked picture(from livefist). Watch the right most heli..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... h/1111.jpg

yes, that was what I was talking about.....do you have any close-up pics? If you find any, then just check on the rear portion of the frame....you'll find a metallic bottle attached which supplies compressed air for the jack-up.

[Bob V]

btw, could you have a look at the supercruise discussion in LCA thread and add your inputs ?
TIA.

reading that entire thread in one go has given me a terrible headache....will try to post my views whenever I get time.

[enqyoob]

Ah! Then they may have a few jacks also for the skid machines, put 2 bars (any good I-beam will do) across, use 4 jacks to push them up enough to slide the trolley under the skids. They can probably take off straight from the trolley as long as the wheels are stopped with good rocks, desi ishtyle.

Or maybe you tie a Pakistani to the aft endof the tailboom and cause the front end to lift, then use 2 Pakistanis on the front to drag the front over the trolley. But this sounds a bit risky.

Landing gear causes significant drag, and you cannot land on any slope at all if you have wheels. So skids are good for mountain operations.

[Mayuresh]

Thanks Guys!

Another Newbie Question:

Why do we have the IAF roundell and / or "ARMY" written in bold letters on the tail of the Dhruv when it is painted in camoflage colours? Will that not give it away?

For that matter, all aircraft, even when painted in camoflage colours, our aircraft have IAF roundels that may give them away. Why is that done? Most of the US fighters have their airforce markings in colours that blend in the a/c colour. Eg.
1. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 6_USAF.jpg
2. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... ert_lg.jpg
3. http://pilot.strizhi.info/wp-content/up ... 485_sm.jpg

Why do we not do it?

[Sachin]

I will be a Newbie here...

Can any one tell me the name of the tune (or better still, a downloadable version) of the 'General Salute' tune played by the band here.
General Salute

This would make an awe-some mobile phone ring tone at least for me .

[shiv]

Why do we have the IAF roundell and / or "ARMY" written in bold letters on the tail of the Dhruv when it is painted in camoflage colours? Will that not give it away?

For that matter, all aircraft, even when painted in camoflage colours, our aircraft have IAF roundels that may give them away.

If you are so close to an aircraft that you can see its markings - you might shoot it down if you don't know whom it belongs to. But if you are far away the markings don't matter and what matters is a reliable IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system.

[anirban_aim]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 248472.cms

Sirji is going over the top with almost every ball.

3 days 3 sixes.

At this rate I'm afraid your honor will soon find himself going the Vishnu Bhagwat way.

[biswas]

Regarding ballistics missile.

On wikipedia it shows in the Agni II article:

Unit cost Rs 250-350 million (INR) or $ 5.6-7.9 million (USD)[1]

Why does it say unit cost, does it mean that ballistics missiles can be mass produced? :O

Forgive the newbieness please

[enqyoob]

Why not? One is not enough...
For any system, the "unit cost" is figured by adding up all the R&D and baksheesh and Tooling and Staffing costs for the production line, and dividing by the projected "run size".

Thus, say the project cost of reaching production of the first "production line" Agni is Rs. 1,700,000 crores. If the production is stopped with one item, then the "unit cost" is that much. OTOH, if 2 are built, then the total cost may be 1,700,000.05 crores, so the unit cost becomes that divided by 2. IOW, Rs. 850,000.025 crores, per my madarssa math.

And so on. As the total number increases, the total cost goes up by only a small amount, so the unit cost keeps dropping. This is why AK-47s are down to some $20 each in Pakistan. Suicide bombers are even cheaper.

And each additional item should not cost 0.05 crores either. The "Learning Curve" for weapon systems predicts that doubling the production run size will only cost 80% more per unit because you cut mistakes and number of rejections. In India it costs 80% more because the commies will have figured out that you are actually working, and put up red flags and "dharna" outside and "gherao" the engineers.

[abhik]

Bit of a geeky artillery question.
Can someone explain how this MRSI thing works. I know that to land multiple shells at one place at the same time you need to do two things simultaneously 1)fire at different angles 2)fire at different speeds (Of course with only changing the firing angle you can land only a max of two).
Now no1 can be achieved very easily but how is no2 done?
I imagine that charges of different sizes or strengths can be used but this will mean that a whole load of different types of charges will have to be carried and then carefully used in the correct order.Some thing like this would require a lot of preparation and seems like a serious pain in the a.
Modular charges can be used too but that would require each charge unit to be composed of many modules(for example using a thee part modular charge you use all three in the first shot(and the last short)and in the next shot using only two parts you have only 66% of throwing energy which may be good enough for targets at short ranges only,so totaling in 4 shots at relatively less range)
Also is there a bleed off system that can reduce the velocity of the projectile .

[Mayuresh]

If you are so close to an aircraft that you can see its markings - you might shoot it down if you don't know whom it belongs to. But if you are far away the markings don't matter and what matters is a reliable IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system.

I always thought it was only the IFF that was used and with the advances in technology, I used to think that the roundells and markings would be redundant. I think they are still around to aid the man-portable SAMs that would not have the IFF system

Anyways, the point of having a camoflage is to prevent the enemy from spotting it. If the IAF roundell is huge / in colours that so not blend with the camoflage patterns or colours, it is a give-away. Look at the markings on USAF planes, they use camoflage colours to create the markings, so that they are visible at close range, but blend in with the pattern at long ranges.

[shiv]

Anyways, the point of having a camoflage is to prevent the enemy from spotting it. If the IAF roundell is huge / in colours that so not blend with the camoflage patterns or colours, it is a give-away. Look at the markings on USAF planes, they use camoflage colours to create the markings, so that they are visible at close range, but blend in with the pattern at long ranges.

Mayuresh every air force does what suits its operational conditions. The USAF currently operates everywhere in the world with absolute air superiority so every aircraft in the air is an ally for both ground forces and air forces except for the enemy for whom any aircraft is a threat. No need to even look look. And in any case I think the US has completely stopped close in low attacks. Everything is stand off. If they need to - they will paint markings on soon enough

[Rahul M]

If you are so close to an aircraft that you can see its markings - you might shoot it down if you don't know whom it belongs to. But if you are far away the markings don't matter and what matters is a reliable IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system.

I always thought it was only the IFF that was used and with the advances in technology, I used to think that the roundells and markings would be redundant. I think they are still around to aid the man-portable SAMs that would not have the IFF system

Anyways, the point of having a camoflage is to prevent the enemy from spotting it. If the IAF roundell is huge / in colours that so not blend with the camoflage patterns or colours, it is a give-away. Look at the markings on USAF planes, they use camoflage colours to create the markings, so that they are visible at close range, but blend in with the pattern at long ranges.

IAF markings are nowhere large enough or in extra visible colours that would make them visible at long ranges. have you ever tried looking at an aircraft from some distance away ?

[Vishnu]

Hi .. on an utterly miscellaneous note .... may I invite all of you to JOIN my page as Friends .. ndtv.com/vishnu ... I do reply to tweets ... particularly those of people who hit JOIn on the top right of the screen. There have alread been a few discussions defence related ... and I welcome more.

Best,
Vishnu Som
Senior Anchor and Associate Editor, NDTV

[Dmurphy]

Hi .. on an utterly miscellaneous note .... may I invite all of you to JOIN my page as Friends .. ndtv.com/vishnu ... I do reply to tweets ... particularly those of people who hit JOIn on the top right of the screen. There have alread been a few discussions defence related ... and I welcome more.

Best,
Vishnu Som
Senior Anchor and Associate Editor, NDTV

WIll do Vishnu. And a nice initiative for noobs like me, if I may say.

[VijayKumarSinha]

I was wondering if Indian soldiers and other forces are allowed to buy their own flak jackets and other body armor?

I am asking this because sometime back I saw a news report in American media about an American soldier who bought additional body armor from states by himself and had it delivered to him through Fedex because he didn't want to take any chances.
Other soldiers did it too: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... rmor_x.htm
But that guy got EXTRA armor shipped to him in Iraq

Also, because I saw images of Indian policemen, soldiers standing in the middle of a railway station, with just an INSAS and no armor at all.


Because if they are allowed to do so I want to get in touch with a few and try to deliver them body armor.
If they have just one or two flak jackets and one helmet they could rotate it between shifts while guarding soft/sensitive targets.

[enqyoob]

Isn't this whole thing a really bad trend? I am going to do a fedayeen and point out what should be obvious.

Firstly, I suspect that the prime reason for ppl not wearing a helmet or body armor all the time is that they are very uncomfortable, and India still takes pride in not having gone into a Bunker Mentality. Policemen especially are supposed to be there to assist the people, and deter the occasional badmash. If you tell the policeman standing at a rail station to wear Body Armor and a Helmet and WMD Gas Mask etc., they will ask you how fast you can run to catch the urchin stealing a handbag. The kind population standing around will at the fat, slow ulloo policeman and admire the speed of the urchin.

In the US they would simply yell "FREEZE!" and in the next second, fire 3 shots. India is not there **yet** in "advancement".

The most powerful and most effective anti-terrorist pictures that came out of the Mumbai carnage of Nov. 2008 was not the Black Cats looking fierce. They were (1) of the policeman, with (probably empty) rifle shouldered, leading an old man, gently by the elbow through the carnage of the railway station, and (2) of the unarmed policeman bringing a baby out to safety.

I do think that when special operations are conducted, proper equipment should be provided, and USED. But, say, when a message comes out to the policemen standing in the heat of the street corner, to stop a pair of terrorists in a car speeding that way, is there time to go looking for the Kevlar Vest and stuff metal pieces into it?



***********************************

Sure, I can see the merit in saving even one life, but are we inducing the Police and Armed Forces to go into private enterprise and turn into something like a band of mercenaries? Appu here with the helmet and Night Vision goggles sent to him by his relatives in the Gulf, Mehta over there with the Kevlar body armor and Reebok hiking boots, and Narayanan over here with only the tin pan helmet and canvas shoes and saada uniphorum is who gets sent in through the door to face the AK-47 because, hey, Appu and Mehta also made sure to give a small baksheesh to the platoon commander saar?

These things are absolute disasters for unit morale.

yeah, yeah, I can hear the calls for Action Against Admins (A^3) for Crossing All Bounds in Insulting Our Brave Jawans.. When are we coming out with the LCAs with the Bharat-Rakshak Logo on them?

The "blood-clot kits" venture (and who could protest against THAT?) is another example (no endorsement intended). At least there I would hope those go to the unit's medical person, not be just in the pockets of some soldiers and not for use by others. You can't do that with helmets and body armor.

A forum such as this surely has a role to play, but I submit that it is more in informing and perhaps even demanding from the government(s) that they move their butts and do the development and procurement and deployment of things where the technology has been developed and shown to exist, not just be possible.

The times have changed. India is not poor, and India does collect taxes these days. If there is money for the Mantris to scoot around in Lexus or BMWs, there is surely money to buy (or in fact, develop) blood-clot kits, body armor, whatever.

As for US forces' body armor, IMO, that is also a scam. It shows the US Army in a very poor light, if soldiers have to get protective equipment shipped from home. Some units have indeed got innovative concepts implemented to protect HUMVEES and other vehicles against IEDs - that is the nature of "unconventional warfare" where the units in the field have to improvise faster than the bureaucracy can get stuff to them. Most important effect of that is to embarass the government into "action". Most of the time, the reason why the units don't already have those innovations, is that those innovations will kill the soldiers in some other circumstance, and that won't be shown on CNN.

The most important effect of sending combat/protective equipment to field units is that they will either toss them or sell them, and go back to what they have trained with. IF the stuff ever reaches there.

The most important effect of these "Save Poor Ambika For 5 cents per day!" type Pleas For Action is to stuff the pockets of the persons running the scam. For instance, see where "World Vision", the "famous" Global Charity caring for Third World Children etc., is located. Precise location.

Secondary effect is that if you send combat-relevant equipment to India from abroad, the person receiving it, receives a free visit to government facilities to explain, and probably gets guided tours of Narco Test facilities, nail treatments etc. In the first place, soldiers are government employees. They are under an oath not to receive gifts from those they serve. Sweets and letters from the family are one thing, but receiving Special Armor, Special Uzi gun etc. is quite another.

Several years ago, there was a recurrence of attempted 'visits' to the usually unoccupied upper floor of my ancestral home. I sent a cheap battery-powered motion detector alarm to my aged relatives. With a Customs Declaration, etc. etc., through the postal service.

They got a summons from the Customs to Explain why she was Receiving Prohibited Items From Foreign Sources. Took quite an effort to get that cleared up.

So if you hear of these great Deals where someone promises to send this or that to the Indian Army if you Send Money Now, pls note that India has strict rules on receiving stuff or money from abroad. Maybe they are not enforced 90% of the time, but if you are lucky enough to be in the other 10%, hey, the jails are getting more comfortable all the time...

Cheers
**********************

And what good will Body Armor do against radiation? Shouldn't every policeman also be carrying Anti-Radiation Pills and Chemical Warfare Gear as well? And then, how to counter Anthrax or Plague?

If all that leaves you very unhappy at the State of Unpreparedness of the Police, remember, there is still one and only one effective solution - and the job of a Forum is to keep hammering that into the thick musharrafs of the Mantris, through the plush seats of their Lexuses:

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE. DESTROY PAKISTAN.

[VijayKumarSinha]

Secondary effect is that if you send combat-relevant equipment to India from abroad, the person receiving it, receives a free visit to government facilities to explain, and probably gets guided tours of Narco Test facilities, nail treatments etc. In the first place, soldiers are government employees. They are under an oath not to receive gifts from those they serve. Sweets and letters from the family are one thing, but receiving Special Armor, Special Uzi gun etc. is quite another.

Several years ago, there was a recurrence of attempted 'visits' to the usually unoccupied upper floor of my ancestral home. I sent a cheap battery-powered motion detector alarm to my aged relatives. With a Customs Declaration, etc. etc., through the postal service.

They got a summons from the Customs to Explain why she was Receiving Prohibited Items From Foreign Sources. Took quite an effort to get that cleared up.

So if you hear of these great Deals where someone promises to send this or that to the Indian Army if you Send Money Now, pls note that India has strict rules on receiving stuff or money from abroad. Maybe they are not enforced 90% of the time, but if you are lucky enough to be in the other 10%, hey, the jails are getting more comfortable all the time...

Thanks, that’s what I wanted to know. The whole Idea of giving body armour, as a semi-official donation (if ever there was such a thing) was to create awareness among security personnel, about how body armour saves lives and letting them know that there are Indians out there who value their lives through this small gesture.
I wasn’t gonna give it to a random personnel while the rest would only get to see how pretty he looked in that. I was thinking more in terms of making a suggestion that they rotate the armour from shift to shift. So, if they had 4 sets of vests and helmets then the 2 guys manning the entrance of CST would wear them (because that would be a crucial location) and hand it back in after their shift. While the next shift goes in with the other set of body armor.

I don’t agree with your take that wearing body armour at Airports, railway stations and other places is akin to carrying anti-radiation pills and anthrax medication. When was the last time that an anthrax attack or nuclear attack was carried out? Compared to that, when was the last time when proper body armour saved the life of security personnel? I would venture a guess and say, in the Fort hood shooting. Ofcourse, I don’t think that every policemen (at least in India) needs to wear body armor. I was talking about the personnel guarding locations and especially those that are often attacked. The picture that I mentioned was probably of a policeman with INSAS standing on CST(who by the way don’t chase after pocket maars). I was thinking more in terms of these soldier being able to survive a first attack and fire back with some confidence.

Nor do I agree with your comment on the whole U.S. body armor thing. If you watch military channel docs you would know the countless times when body armor saved a soldier’s life. What I want to do is to change the way things work by using more than one avenue of pursuit. Using forums, to generate opinion in intelligentsia and otherwise is one thing but doing something proactively on the ground is something another altogether.

Also, it doesn’t have to be sent from abroad, I think there are companies in India that manufacture body armor. And it doesn't have to be for the big cities instead it could be for the soldiers and police who patrol the naxal affected areas and naxals use a wise assortment for many of them their rounds could be stopped by vests and helmets.

[enqyoob]

Your heart is in the right place. But more effective way of doing these things, if I may venture a suggestion, is to visit a university, and find a young assistant professor who hasn't yet found the glories of the Cafeteria.

Offer them this project: Do a thorough study of the issues, the actual conditions, interview plenty of soldiers and policemen, and get agreement to conduct some trials (separately) of how the body armor/whatever is to wear and stand around. Also, separate tests to destruction in a firing range (with only a dummy inside it!)

Document the results, publish them. THEN and ONLY then, contact some journalists and tell them the story, of how a dedicated citizen pursued the idea, found a dedicated faculty member and excellent students, and in turn some dedicated police and army personnel who conducted the research trials, and how the results show that so many lives could be saved, how much it would cost, etc. etc.

This approach can generate 100 times the amount of money that you put into it, and make a REAL difference.

As you say, lots of things can be learned from watching the TV channels. Even more can be learned if you spend some time investigating exactly why these brilliant ideas have not yet been implemented, and THEN you can find out the proper approach. Since you have previously explained where you live etc (see the dangers of doing so, even just one mention once in a post long ago? ) I know there are enough Central govt. R&D institutions around, where they can tell you why they have not adopted the advancement in question (or why they will be delighted to take your suggestions and run with them).

One obvious question:

If there are Indian companies making this stuff in India, why aren't they successful in selling them to the armed forces/ police? Who else are their customers?

Can't ONE State govt be persuaded to buy a few thousand of these and give them to their police? Say Gujarat? I am assured by several people that Shri Modi's govt is proactive and receptive enough to do these sorts of things.

But my bottom line warning remains: private citizens going into buying combat equipment is a recipe for disaster.

As for "doesn't every policeman wear these in Amreeka?" the answer is, well... since so many guns and nuts are around, nearly as many per thousand population as in Pakistan, I wish they DID. Most policemen in the US spend much more of their time in vehicles, not on their feet, compared to policemen in India. And it's cold and dry enough most of the year to wear protective equipment comfortably. But, few do, except for the SWAT teams. And way too many policemen die each year, who could have been saved if they were wearing them. But, you'll see that gun deaths are only about 40% of the deaths. You really have to think through the "why" of that before disagreeing with me on how many will wear these in India (well.. too late now..)

[SagarP]

Could anyone please enlighten if the BVR AAMs or LR SAMs have any in-built self-destruct switches in case they are fired by mistake on friendlies...or is it oops, sorry onleee

TIA

[shiv]

Could anyone please enlighten if the BVR AAMs or LR SAMs have any in-built self-destruct switches in case they are fired by mistake on friendlies...or is it oops, sorry onleee

TIA

It is oops sorry onlee

[atreya]

I have some newbie doubts regarding The Parachute Regiment.

1) The Parachute Regiment includes 7 SF and 3 Parachute battalions. So, personnel in these 3 battalions are parachute qualified, but not special force qualified, right? I read the BR article, and this what I inferred. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2) Those in Para SF battalions go through a rigorous qualifying course. So, when they are sent on deputation to NSG, do they undergo training again? If yes, then why so? The Para SF training is grueling enough, and only the toughest emerge from it. No need to test their toughness again in NSG, is there?

[uddu]

Cannot find the India-South America thread, hence posting it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbv8hUGEc4


Never knew that they taught about India in Brazilian schools.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NelyGarcia# ... TWDJO4fLQM

[andy B]

Diyar Ncubus Maximus Ul Spider Master...I have a humble question for thou:

Recently I was going through all my old AFM, Air Int & ACM mags in search for IAF relevant articles anyhow there was a very interesting article about the EF 18 Growler...now this bird uses the same ALQ99 jamming pods as the Prowler/Queer .

Anyhow my question is that some time back I distinctly remember the discussion on the Kaveri Injun thread where you had mentioned that although the airframe is going supersonic the way they design and make the inlet ensures that the pankha of the injun thinks that its going at 400 knots and thus is able to function ityadi. (I cant seem to remember the exact wording apologies )

Now the Growler is currently limited to mach 0.95 onlee due to its external stores ityadi what I was wondering was that the ALQ99 pods have ram air turbines infront of them that power the pods in flight so would it be possible that they can design specialised inlets for these turbines and encase them instead of the turbines being open if so would it then be able to function in supersonic flight? So even if the jets going supersonic the turbine feels like its going sub sonic/transonic and is still able to function?

I do understand that the 0.95 speed may be limited also due to the massive drag + weight of the pods + efts + ordanance (agm 88 Harms)

Apologies if this seem overtly eshtupid, it might have been a brain phart on my part.

[andy B]

Could anyone please enlighten if the BVR AAMs or LR SAMs have any in-built self-destruct switches in case they are fired by mistake on friendlies...or is it oops, sorry onleee

TIA

Sagar google is a BRFites best friend below all I have done is search for BVR missile + friendly fire. Seek and thou shall find...

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&r ... =&aq=f&oq=

[enqyoob]

So even if the jets going supersonic the turbine feels like its going sub sonic/transonic and is still able to function?

I don't know what said AlQaeda Ram air turbine looks like, but offhand, there is no reason why a turbine cannot be designed to function in a supersonic air stream - it will be a bit less than perfect in efficiency, but it can power whatever it powers.

Why can't they just put Energizer batteries on this AlQaeda whatever, I wonder. Or give a USB power cable.

Turbine .ne. compressor, so the inlet stuff does not apply here.

[abhishek_sharma]

From : http://www.indianexpress.com/news/For-k ... alk/546833

It’s learnt that US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has conveyed to the Prime Minister that it will be difficult for the US to provide related and ancillary equipment for any military platform it sells to India unless it signs the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and another agreement related to exchange of satellite data. The Indian side is said to have responded that the matter is under New Delhi’s consideration.

The CISMOA is already pending with the Defence Ministry and had been put on hold by the first UPA government because of Left pressure. But there has been no review of that decision after the second UPA government took over. In fact, the latest line from the Defence Ministry is that the government could consider developing some of these equipment indigenously.

Hello gurus: What are the security implications of signing CISMOA? And why does USA need our satellite data? Thanks.

[KiranM]

I have some newbie doubts regarding The Parachute Regiment.

1) The Parachute Regiment includes 7 SF and 3 Parachute battalions. So, personnel in these 3 battalions are parachute qualified, but not special force qualified, right? I read the BR article, and this what I inferred. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2) Those in Para SF battalions go through a rigorous qualifying course. So, when they are sent on deputation to NSG, do they undergo training again? If yes, then why so? The Para SF training is grueling enough, and only the toughest emerge from it. No need to test their toughness again in NSG, is there?

Not a guru, but the commonaliy of SF and Paras stop at parachute/ heliborne training (airborne deployment should be the correct word) alone. SF is trained to operate mainly in small units behind enemy lines using mainly unconventional tactics. Paras though are to be deployed by air behind enemy lines, are trained to fight on ground using conventional tactics like regular infantry. So the difference between Paratroopers and SF.

Coming to SF training vs NSG training. Training along with honing your skills, also imbibes unit cohesion. NSG attracts people from various Army/ CPO/ Police units. They need to train together to learn to fight together. Also, Army SF may have Urban CQB as part of its training. But NSG is primarily tasked for the same and will have a more comprehensive syllabus. NSG and Army SF may have different tactics, procedures, etc, requiring SF deputed to NSG to undergo NSG specific training again.

Question to Gurus. Can IN Marcos also be deputed to NSG like Army SF?

[atreya]

I have some newbie doubts regarding The Parachute Regiment.

1) The Parachute Regiment includes 7 SF and 3 Parachute battalions. So, personnel in these 3 battalions are parachute qualified, but not special force qualified, right? I read the BR article, and this what I inferred. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2) Those in Para SF battalions go through a rigorous qualifying course. So, when they are sent on deputation to NSG, do they undergo training again? If yes, then why so? The Para SF training is grueling enough, and only the toughest emerge from it. No need to test their toughness again in NSG, is there?

Not a guru, but the commonaliy of SF and Paras stop at parachute/ heliborne training (airborne deployment should be the correct word) alone. SF is trained to operate mainly in small units behind enemy lines using mainly unconventional tactics. Paras though are to be deployed by air behind enemy lines, are trained to fight on ground using conventional tactics like regular infantry. So the difference between Paratroopers and SF.

Coming to SF training vs NSG training. Training along with honing your skills, also imbibes unit cohesion. NSG attracts people from various Army/ CPO/ Police units. They need to train together to learn to fight together. Also, Army SF may have Urban CQB as part of its training. But NSG is primarily tasked for the same and will have a more comprehensive syllabus. NSG and Army SF may have different tactics, procedures, etc, requiring SF deputed to NSG to undergo NSG specific training again.

Question to Gurus. Can IN Marcos also be deputed to NSG like Army SF?

Thank you. That cleared out things for me. And your question was exactly what I had intended to ask next! Can IN Marcos also be deputed to NSG like Army SF?

[jamwal]

Image
From IITF 2009, New Delhi
In lower right corner, is the text Bromos correct?
(Sorry for poor pic quality, used a camera phone)

and is it launcher for Konkur?

ATGM launcher
What happens to fins if it's a launcher for Konkur?
How come Indian companies were displaying foreign arms in their pavillions?
Konkur and Milan are not Indian missiles.

[Rahul M]

^^^
license produced by BDL.

[VijayKumarSinha]

One obvious question:
If there are Indian companies making this stuff in India, why aren't they successful in selling them to the armed forces/ police? Who else are their customers?

I can only make an educated guess in that regard. It is possible for us to research companies and their products sitting in the comfort of our house but an airport guard doesn’t have that luxury. We certainly don’t have a ‘bunker mentality’ but there is certainly the ‘this will not happen to us‘ mentality compounded by the fact that the security personnel are just not provided these and can’t afford to buy it themselves even if they know about it. So, if I was to tell a sentry that a level 3 armour like dragon skin stops 9mm fired point blank and it will also stop a 5.56 and 7.62 and shrapnel’s from grenade it will get him thinking.

if I may venture a suggestion, is to visit a university, and find a young assistant professor who hasn't yet found the glories of the Cafeteria.

Conducting a research in a college or university to garner attention to the cause is a great idea. Although, I think in the end it would be akin to re-inventing the wheel because it is an established fact in the western world that body armour saves lives. There is so much highly publicized information available on the topic. It would be a matter of determining what kind of armour is best suited for Indian armed personnel’s patrolling soft targets such as bus/train stations and airports.

As for "doesn't every policeman wear these in Amreeka?" the answer is, well... since so many guns and nuts are around, nearly as many per thousand population as in Pakistan, I wish they DID. Most policemen in the US spend much more of their time in vehicles, not on their feet, compared to policemen in India. And it's cold and dry enough most of the year to wear protective equipment comfortably. But, few do, except for the SWAT teams. And way too many policemen die each year, who could have been saved if they were wearing them. But, you'll see that gun deaths are only about 40% of the deaths.

I know what you mean here. But, look at this picture:
http://www.idruna.com/images/PhojoCusto ... axNash.jpg
If it is logical for Amirkhan police officers to wear vests because of the plethora of weapons they have in civilian hands than inversely by the same logic it should be logical for Britainistani police officer not to wear vests because they have strict gun control laws there. But, not only do they wear vests on the street but I know through a udta hua parinda that all armed police officers wear vests even in subways. Also, I can assure you even though Khanadda has much much fewer arms and nuts than Amirkhan but not only all policemen wear vests but also MALL COPS with no lethal weapons wear it too.
Also, Indian weather is not the same everywhere. Not to mention that even the hottest places are pretty cold for certain months of the year. If it is weather that is preventing them for wearing vests than they should also be happy to wear it in Delhi ki sardi. 26/11 happened in November which is not the hottest month of the year. So many attacks happen in J&K and North-east which are not the hottest places in India.


Once again sir, it’s not the average policemen with a lathi or a chaukidaar shouting, “Jaagte Raho!” that I am saying should be wearing a vest and a helmet when on duty. It’s the armed policemen that I am saying should be wearing a vest.
My idea is simple. If you are carrying a gun you should be wearing a vest – at least. Because if it will save a life in 40% of cases than that’s 40% too many to lose.

[bodhi]

I know what you mean here. If it is logical for Amirkhan police officers to wear vests because of the plethora of weapons they have in civilian hands than inversely by the same logic it should be logical for Britainistani police officer not to wear vests because they have strict gun control laws there. But, not only do they wear vests on the street but I know through a udta hua parinda that all armed police officers wear vests even in subways. Also, I can assure you even though Khanadda has much much fewer arms and nuts than Amirkhan but not only all policemen wear vests but also MALL COPS with no lethal weapons wear it too.

enqyoob ji...would like to differ on your opinion on this a bit. While the image you have attached shows them wearing anti-ballistic body armour aka bullet proof vests, these are worn only by special squads and is not a standard for all police officers...especially the ones you see in the streets and subways.

The regular police officers wear what is called as a stab-proof vest....it provides good protection for knife attacks but perform poorly when shot at with even low calibre bullets. The is in line with the increasing knife crimes that we have seen in the UK over the past decade.

http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/storage/foodcafe.jpg

The black sweater like thing under the reflective jacket with the police sticker on it is the typical outfit for 90% of the "Britainistani" police officers

I have myself used these vests as i used to work as a Door Steward (slang - Bouncer) for a number of clubs and bars/pubs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and unfortunately in Aberdeen as well for over 3 years and we were issued stab proof vests in certain clubs. Its handy for knife attacks and you dont feel punches at all and it was similar to the ones used by the police. Cost was about 85-90 GBP.

But i agree with you on what you said...every policeman equipped with a fire arm should be wearing bullet-proof vests.

[AdityaM]

I am reading "Param Vir" by MajGen Ian Cardozo.
However i feel i would appreciate the tales of valour better if i could understand what is a Company, brigade, regiment, platoon, division etc.
I know i have asked this once earlier, but unable to get any search results here on it.

So can anyone point me to the BR page on 'Company, brigade...' definitions.
And if it doesnot exist, then can the knowledgeable please construct one.

Not sure if this is relevant to Indian context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization

[VijayKumarSinha]

I know what you mean here. If it is logical for Amirkhan police officers to wear vests because of the plethora of weapons they have in civilian hands than inversely by the same logic it should be logical for Britainistani police officer not to wear vests because they have strict gun control laws there. But, not only do they wear vests on the street but I know through a udta hua parinda that all armed police officers wear vests even in subways. Also, I can assure you even though Khanadda has much much fewer arms and nuts than Amirkhan but not only all policemen wear vests but also MALL COPS with no lethal weapons wear it too.

enqyoob ji...would like to differ on your opinion on this a bit. While the image you have attached shows them wearing anti-ballistic body armour aka bullet proof vests, these are worn only by special squads and is not a standard for all police officers...especially the ones you see in the streets and subways.

The regular police officers wear what is called as a stab-proof vest....it provides good protection for knife attacks but perform poorly when shot at with even low calibre bullets. The is in line with the increasing knife crimes that we have seen in the UK over the past decade.

http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/storage/foodcafe.jpg

The black sweater like thing under the reflective jacket with the police sticker on it is the typical outfit for 90% of the "Britainistani" police officers

I have myself used these vests as i used to work as a Door Steward (slang - Bouncer) for a number of clubs and bars/pubs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and unfortunately in Aberdeen as well for over 3 years and we were issued stab proof vests in certain clubs. Its handy for knife attacks and you dont feel punches at all and it was similar to the ones used by the police. Cost was about 85-90 GBP.

But i agree with you on what you said...every policeman equipped with a fire arm should be wearing bullet-proof vests.

bodhi, I think that you thought that enqyoob said that, but it was me.

The police officers you showed in the pictures were UNARMED.

And what you said is exactly what I am saying, NO VISIBLY ARMED cops in UK or rest of the western world go out without a high quality vest most of the time.

And rest of them, on most occasion wear the stab proof vest as you said.

But, in India it is a common thing to see guys without ANY ARMOR guarding a whole bunch of locations from soft targets to sensitive locations.

I believe that if the ARMED policemen at last year’s attack(those who were present there from the start of the firing) were wearing vests of ANY kind. I believe that they would have had the confidence of at least trying to engage the Paki’s even from their .303 or revolvers from very early on and we would have had fewer casualties both in the police forces and the civilians.

[rohitvats]

I am reading "Param Vir" by MajGen Ian Cardozo.
However i feel i would appreciate the tales of valour better if i could understand what is a Company, brigade, regiment, platoon, division etc.
I know i have asked this once earlier, but unable to get any search results here on it.

So can anyone point me to the BR page on 'Company, brigade...' definitions.
And if it doesnot exist, then can the knowledgeable please construct one.

Not sure if this is relevant to Indian context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization

That page is relevant to Indian Army as well. Just ignore the Cavalry and Regiment definitions and their associated organization. IA does not have equivalent of the same. In IA Regiment has different conotation and is administrative, rather than, operational concept. Also, IA does not have "Army" designation/formation. Our equivalent of same will be various Command formations like Northern Command, Western Command etc.

Give me some time, I'll post a quick reference of hierarchy of formations.