Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 03 Dec 2009 13:11

oops...my bad...apologies for the oversight enqyoob ji.

Back to me hole I scamper back to

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 03 Dec 2009 19:47

rohitvats wrote:
AdityaM wrote:I am reading "Param Vir" by MajGen Ian Cardozo.
However i feel i would appreciate the tales of valour better if i could understand what is a Company, brigade, regiment, platoon, division etc.
I know i have asked this once earlier, but unable to get any search results here on it.

So can anyone point me to the BR page on 'Company, brigade...' definitions.
And if it doesnot exist, then can the knowledgeable please construct one.

Not sure if this is relevant to Indian context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization
That page is relevant to Indian Army as well. Just ignore the Cavalry and Regiment definitions and their associated organization. IA does not have equivalent of the same. In IA Regiment has different conotation and is administrative, rather than, operational concept. Also, IA does not have "Army" designation/formation. Our equivalent of same will be various Command formations like Northern Command, Western Command etc.

Give me some time, I'll post a quick reference of hierarchy of formations.

Yes. Even I am confused sometimes by the whole hierarchy thing. Thank you in advance rohit ji!

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 03 Dec 2009 20:01

AdityaM wrote:I am reading "Param Vir" by MajGen Ian Cardozo.
However i feel i would appreciate the tales of valour better if i could understand what is a Company, brigade, regiment, platoon, division etc.
I know i have asked this once earlier, but unable to get any search results here on it.

Not a knowledgeable one but as per my understanding....

BODY -- STRUCTURE -- TROOPS -- LED BY
ARMY HQ -- 6+1 COMMAND -- blank -- GENERAL (COAS).
COMMAND -- 2/+ CORPS -- blank --LT.GEN (G-O-C in C).
CORPS -- 2/+ DIVISIONS -- blank --LT.GEN (G-O-C).
DIVISION -- 3-4 INF BRGD -- 15500 SOLDIERS -- MAJOR GENERAL.
INF BRIGADE -- 3-4 BATTALIONS -- 3500 SOLDIERS -- BRIGADIER.
BATTALION -- 4 INF COMPANY -- 1000 SOLDIERS -- COLONEL.
INF COMPANY -- 3 INF PLATOONS -- 120 SOLDIERS -- MAJOR .
INF PLATOON -- 3 SECTIONS -- 33-36 SOLDIERS -- SUBEDAR (JCO).
SECTION -- blank -- 11 SOLDIERS -- HAVILDAR (NCO).

I hope this is what u asked...

PS: This needs a verification by Rohitvats...

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Dec 2009 20:15

The table is simple.

Infantry section.

Three sections makes a platoon

Three platoons makes a Company

Four Companies plus Administrative and Support Companies (this has kept changing) makes a Battalion

Three Battalions and support elements make a Brigade

Three Brigades make a Division along with administrative elements/ administrative combat support and combat service support battalions/regiment.

Three Divisions along with Corps assets make a Corps

And then comes the Command (Field Armies)

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Dec 2009 22:13

Thank you for all the info!

@Webmaster: Can this info please be captured on the BRF main site.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 04 Dec 2009 17:55

In DRDO's parlance, how important would documents be if they have been marked Restricted on every page?

TIA

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 04 Dec 2009 18:02

BATTALION -- 4 INF COMPANY -- 1000 SOLDIERS -- COLONEL.
INF COMPANY -- 3 INF PLATOONS -- 120 SOLDIERS -- MAJOR .

My madarssa calculus failed me at that point

Upto 8 companies in a battalion? Is there a shortage of Colonels or are some types of battalions very different from others?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 05 Dec 2009 05:11

Hiten wrote:In DRDO's parlance, how important would documents be if they have been marked Restricted on every page?

TIA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information

Code: Select all

(State)	Top Secret	      Secret	           Confidential	    Restricted
India	   परम गुप्त (Param Gupt)	गुप्त (Gupt)	गोपनीय (Gopniya)	प्रतिबंधित/सीमित (Pratibandhit/seemit)

Restricted
Such material would cause "undesirable effects" if publicly available. Some countries do not have such a classification.

In other words, do not post it in BR and it is better not to talk about it publicly.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 05 Dec 2009 06:46

The Infantry Bn, and Armoured Regt are covered here.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... /Misc.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Dec 2009 07:28

vasu_ray wrote:when the first crash of MKI happened, it was the failure of FBW and the aircraft couldn't be controlled by manual piloting

yet for Tejas the manual controls exist in addition to the FBW, will the pilot be able to save the plane if the FBW were to fail?

vasu_ray you need to buy and Read "The Tejas Story" by Air Marshal Rajkumar. Kapil (of BR) may stil have a few copies left

Here is a sample page that is relevant to your question

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Dec 2009 00:05

Another noob question -

Given that we seem to be lacking in naval heavy hardware suppose GoI decides to build a shipyard today. How many years would it take to build one to get it ready to start building ships?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 06 Dec 2009 00:10

shiv wrote:vasu_ray you need to buy and Read "The Tejas Story" by Air Marshal Rajkumar. Kapil (of BR) may stil have a few copies left

Thanks Shiv, will read that, better if it is a e-book

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Dec 2009 00:21

Given that we seem to be lacking in naval heavy hardware suppose GoI decides to build a shipyard today. How many years would it take to build one to get it ready to start building ships?

The Cochin shipyard could build 80KT-displacement ships way back in the 1980s, hey (I seem to remember that one of the wimmens where I studied was referred to as 80KT, actually a very nice and decent person).

An good-sized aircraft carrier is only 75KT or so, upwards. So what's the big deal?

IOW, the long-lead-time infrastructure is there. The urgency is not there. Since WW-2, India has not really faced any REAL "war-phooting ephort". If it HAS to be done, and can be done before the facilities get bombed out, I would say 2 years flat to launch heavy aircraft carriers.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 00:33

sumeet_s wrote:
Not a knowledgeable one but as per my understanding....

BODY -- STRUCTURE -- TROOPS -- LED BY
ARMY HQ -- 6+1 COMMAND -- blank -- GENERAL (COAS).
COMMAND -- 2/+ CORPS -- blank --LT.GEN (G-O-C in C).
CORPS -- 2/+ DIVISIONS -- blank --LT.GEN (G-O-C).
DIVISION -- 3-4 INF BRGD -- 15500 SOLDIERS -- MAJOR GENERAL.
INF BRIGADE -- 3-4 BATTALIONS -- 3500 SOLDIERS -- BRIGADIER.
BATTALION -- 4 INF COMPANY -- 1000 SOLDIERS -- COLONEL.
INF COMPANY -- 3 INF PLATOONS -- 120 SOLDIERS -- MAJOR .
INF PLATOON -- 3 SECTIONS -- 33-36 SOLDIERS -- SUBEDAR (JCO).
SECTION -- blank -- 11 SOLDIERS -- HAVILDAR (NCO).

I hope this is what u asked...

PS: This needs a verification by Rohitvats...

If a Company is led by a Major, shouldn't a Platoon and Section be led by a Captain and a Lieutenant respectively??

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Dec 2009 09:28

enqyoob wrote:
Given that we seem to be lacking in naval heavy hardware suppose GoI decides to build a shipyard today. How many years would it take to build one to get it ready to start building ships?
The Cochin shipyard could build 80KT-displacement ships way back in the 1980s, hey (I seem to remember that one of the wimmens where I studied was referred to as 80KT, actually a very nice and decent person).

An good-sized aircraft carrier is only 75KT or so, upwards. So what's the big deal?

IOW, the long-lead-time infrastructure is there. The urgency is not there. Since WW-2, India has not really faced any REAL "war-phooting ephort". If it HAS to be done, and can be done before the facilities get bombed out, I would say 2 years flat to launch heavy aircraft carriers.

Hmmm. So if I understand it right, a thorough a$$-whupping to the various shipyards in our country to deliver on time is enough for our purposes? If only..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 06 Dec 2009 12:52

Nachiket,

Section is of 10 soldiers.

The Engineers have 11.

An Inf Battalion is around 800 and it depends on the Mod they are on.

Coy 2IC is a Captain. Lts are too raw to actually have independent command compared to the JCOs and Havs.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 22:56

RayC wrote:Nachiket,

Section is of 10 soldiers.

The Engineers have 11.

An Inf Battalion is around 800 and it depends on the Mod they are on.

Coy 2IC is a Captain. Lts are too raw to actually have independent command compared to the JCOs and Havs.

Ok..I get it now. JCO's and Havildars have a lot more experience. This actually puts another question in my mind. Since the Army is facing a shortage of officers, wouldn't it be prudent to pick out good JCO's and provide them with sort of a shortened Ofiicer training in the IMA so that they can be commissioned as full-fledged officers? (shortened since they have already received weapons and physical training). With their experience they would have a really good potential to become first class officers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2009 23:05

yes, that procedure is also in place. RayC might give you the details.
you may find it in the army thread too. search the official army site for 'ACC'.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Dec 2009 08:22

nachiket wrote:
RayC wrote:Nachiket,

Section is of 10 soldiers.

The Engineers have 11.

An Inf Battalion is around 800 and it depends on the Mod they are on.

Coy 2IC is a Captain. Lts are too raw to actually have independent command compared to the JCOs and Havs.
Ok..I get it now. JCO's and Havildars have a lot more experience. This actually puts another question in my mind. Since the Army is facing a shortage of officers, wouldn't it be prudent to pick out good JCO's and provide them with sort of a shortened Ofiicer training in the IMA so that they can be commissioned as full-fledged officers? (shortened since they have already received weapons and physical training). With their experience they would have a really good potential to become first class officers.

There are avenues where PBOR can aspire to become officers.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 07 Dec 2009 16:27

RayC,

So if a Lieutenant joins a company, what is their role, What I mean is, as they are trained to be leaders, what additional responsibility they carry ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Dec 2009 18:07

2IC means second in command, that is quite a responsibility !

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 07 Dec 2009 18:40

^ Yes but 2IC is a Captain as per RayC's post . What about Lieutenant? Extremely sorry if this question seems foolish

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Dec 2009 18:46

there are no foolish questions, only foolish answers ! that's what a much-respected teacher of me used to say anyway !

I'll be interested to know as well.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Dec 2009 22:58

One has to be taught while still holding the command!

Any better ideas how to train?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 07 Dec 2009 23:36

If I can add another question.....if JCOs are commanding platoons, then is the Lieutenant "under" their command? Never heard of a JCO commanding a commissioned officer

Ravi Kumar · Post by **Ravi Kumar** » 08 Dec 2009 00:39

Guys,

I am looking for the BR discussion on UN securtiy council reform (about veto in particular). But could not find any related threads. Can some one point me to the related thread, if it exists.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Dec 2009 09:21

JCO does not command an officer.

Yet the Lt is an understudy and has to undergo the Training Cycle training where Havildars are instructors and who have to be obeyed. When the Lt is at the squad post, he is just another student as the sepoy next sitting or practising as him.

An example -

When I had just joined the unit, my Coy Cdr was the Offg 2IC and so I was the defacto Coy Cdr.

Yet, I knew nothing what to do when an OR was being marched up to me for a disciplinary case. My Senior JCO advised me as to the procedure, what questions to ask and what should be the punishment.

So I was commanding as an officer, but actually I was being taught the ropes by the JCO.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Dec 2009 13:37

Another question, this time about the Air force (or Aviation in general). Any idea how the Rank First name nick-name last name originated? Like for example AVM Narayan "Nana" Menon. If I am not mistaken this tradition is followed in civil air lines as well. And I have not noticed such a system in any other defence forces.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Dec 2009 16:42

I figure those are only for pilots. my guess would be those are call-signs.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 08 Dec 2009 20:05

RayC sir....forgive me for my analogy, but for the sake of understanding, JCO-lieutenant relationship is like that of young Akbar-Bairam Khan, right?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Dec 2009 21:45

Rahul M wrote:I figure those are only for pilots. my guess would be those are call-signs.

Are call signs allocated based on the names of the pilots? Atleast in Civil Aviation that is not the case, as they are identified with the flights they are commanding

.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Dec 2009 21:51

atreya wrote:JCO-lieutenant relationship is like that of young Akbar-Bairam Khan

Let us await for a better worded message from RayC

. But JCOs of Indian Army are a unique tradition. Read more about them here. You can read about some of the unique traditions in IA, with regards to JCOs

.

Personally I feel that the system is a good thing to have. The IMA/NDA gives a young officer lots of military stuff, but it is always better to have a veteran helping you out. A veteran who can say "been there and done that". More like the series of Sergeants they have in the US Army, or the Warranted Ranks in UK.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 08:40

RayC wrote:JCO does not command an officer.

Yet the Lt is an understudy and has to undergo the Training Cycle training where Havildars are instructors and who have to be obeyed. When the Lt is at the squad post, he is just another student as the sepoy next sitting or practising as him.

An example -

When I had just joined the unit, my Coy Cdr was the Offg 2IC and so I was the defacto Coy Cdr.

Yet, I knew nothing what to do when an OR was being marched up to me for a disciplinary case. My Senior JCO advised me as to the procedure, what questions to ask and what should be the punishment.

So I was commanding as an officer, but actually I was being taught the ropes by the JCO.

The relationship here seems to be an exact analogy of my own experience as a young surgical specialist taking charge of an existing surgical ward. The running of the ward was essentially taught to me by the senior nurse in charge even as my own training and experience allowed me to stand above everyone else when it came to handling surgical problems. The same relationship is echoed in an operating theater with an old hand surgeon and his favorite old nursing assistant to whom he can say irritably "Don't give me the instrument I asked for. Give me what I need" and get exactly that.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Dec 2009 11:10

atreya wrote:RayC sir....forgive me for my analogy, but for the sake of understanding, JCO-lieutenant relationship is like that of young Akbar-Bairam Khan, right?

Akbar and Birbal would another analogy.

Yes, to the extent that Bairam Khan trained young Akbar, it would be correct.

Bairam Khan was dismissed by Akbar. It is a very dangerous thing to slight a JCO.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Dec 2009 11:16

Sachin,

Could not get the nickname last name bit.

It is a British tradition to give a chap a nickname and it lasts.

For instance Gen 'Muchu' Chaudhuri, Lt Gen 'Bogey' Sen, Lt Gen 'Dick' Dias, Brig 'Toothy' Saigal, 'Cocky' Kochar, 'Daku' Singh, 'Lattu' Gopal etc etc.

And to troops every officer is a Singh. Ivor Satur, an Anglo India General was called Satur Singh Sahab! PD Halur was Hullar Singh Sahab and so on!

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Dec 2009 21:23

RayC wrote:Could not get the nickname last name bit.

Eg: Narayan "Nana" Menon, where Narayan is the first name, "Nana" is the nick name, and Menon is actually the surname. Good to see that Army also has some what similar system. But in the Army way of notation, the original first name (from which the nick-name may have originated) is ignored.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 12 Dec 2009 11:33

Team,

An extremely newbie question: Why are the first 2 squadrons of the LCA using GE-404 when they can use Kaveri, which has almost similar capabilities?

Wikipedia says:
For Thrust,
Kaveri is 52kn (81kn with afterburner) ; TWR = 7.8
GE-404 is 49kn (79kn with afterburner) ; TWR = 7.8
GE-404 IN20 is 54kn (85kn with afterburner) ;

For Weight,
Kaveri is 1,110kg
GE-404 is 1,036kg (do not know if this is the same engine, as n
GE-404 IN20 : Weight not available on wiki

Ofcourse, I am asking this question on the assumption that the wikipedia numbers are correct (they may be wrong, for all I know, because the numbers differ in the GE 404 engine page and the LCA page)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 Dec 2009 13:59

^^
First of all, the max thrust that Kaveri has managed to achieve is suspect.
Contradicting 80KN figure, Ajai Shukla has several times mentioned 65KN as the max thrust.
But even if the thrust is 80KN, the bypass ratio of Kaveri is really low.
And even if all was hunky dory with the figures, integrating Kaveri with Tejas would require the testings to begin from scratch (most of them anyways), significantly delaying the IOC.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Dec 2009 13:39

Guys, humble request:

Does anyone have a e-copy of Itty Abraham's " Making of atomic bomb" or Raj Chengappa's " Weapons of Peace"??

If so, please indicate. Will give my mail ID then.

SagarP · Post by **SagarP** » 13 Dec 2009 18:22

Army should be confident of N-arsenal: Kakodkar...don't know where else to put this as the POK-2 threads are closed i guess. Looking forward to Karan Thapar grilling Mr. Kakodkar