Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[atreya]

Shows that Indian Governments do not have shady foreign policies.####, Rusty and AmeerKhan are notorious for the same.

This guy just got caught, thats it. Every government engages in such spying activities. They can't go around declaring that their men in Bakistan or Cheena have uncovered secret military technology, can they? Anyways, we do hear once in a while about Pakistani spies caught in India and vice versa, right?

[rohitvats]

thanks rohit for ur reply...

so basically only special forces will be trained to do the same right...?

but what abt the soldiers in our parachute regiment , i mean soldiers of all ranks, they will be trained only for low altitude jumping...?

There are two kind of jumps - Static Line and Free Fall.

Mass airdrops use Static Line Jump - here a chord is attached to the plane and your parachute. The moment you exit the a/c, the chord rips open the parachute and opens it. That is why you see those mushrooms opening up one after the another during mass jumps. All paratroopers are qualified in this - there is a basic requirement of X day and Y night Static Line jumps to get Para badge. The maneuverability of such chutes is limited and they tend to happen at fairly low altitude.

Check static line jump pics here: http://www.google.co.in/images?hl=en&q= ... 59&bih=595

Free fall is what u see in movies and show jumps - where the jumper opens the chute himself. Normal Paratroopers have to do a specialized course for qualifying the same.

SF is per force free fall qualified. HAHO and HALO are different things all together.

[vaibhav.n]

Adding to that,

HAHO is operationally conducted using RAM cell parachutes where the use of own aircraft is denied due to enemy air defences. Then SF units will use HAHO techniques to infiltrate enemy territory. Because a HAHO team may travel more than 40 Kms using parachutes, a common rate of descent is a critical factor in keeping the team together to ensure the glide slopes are as uniform as possible. Whereas, HALO also referred to as MFF (Military Free Fall) is primarily used to cover the threshold altitudes fast, though low altitude parachute openings are loud. HALO involves jumpers jumping at around 20,000 feet and freefalling down to 3,000 feet. Regular Parachute units use static line jumps to deploy en-masse on the ground. The SF units are trained at the army's new Airborne School for HALO/HAHO insertions while the PTS at Agra handled the same earlier.

Not all the military SF units are trained for HAHO ops. These are highly specialized ops. Imagine a nightime HAHO jump for an SF team, with the rest stacked behind following their lead's chemlights infiltarting some 40-50 Kms. Phew!!

[Gaur]

^^
Thanks to vaibhav.n and rohitvats for very informative posts. Can you also educate us regarding the usual and max loads with which HALO & HAHO jumps can be performed? Also, you mention that HALO jumps are performed at nearly 20,000 feet. Can you tell us the altitude at which static line jumps are performed?

[Dmurphy]

Are the hovercraft "tubes" or whatever you call them, bullet proof? And what about rubber dinghies used by SFs?

[rohitvats]

^^
Thanks to vaibhav.n and rohitvats for very informative posts. Can you also educate us regarding the usual and max loads with which HALO & HAHO jumps can be performed? Also, you mention that HALO jumps are performed at nearly 20,000 feet. Can you tell us the altitude at which static line jumps are performed?

Gaur, you're more than welcome.

I cannot comment on the load carried during HAHO/HALO jump - this will be a mixture of gear for these jumps as well as stuff to sustain the trooper during his mission. My guess is that with ~45-50kgs for the sustainance, the load can easily reach 70-80kgs.

Wiki links the following equipment for HALO Jump;

In a typical HALO exercise, a parachutist will jump with:

an altimeter
an automatic [parachute] activation device (AAD).
a parachute
a knife
a helmet
a pair of gloves
a pair of military free-fall boots
oxygen available on board the aircraft
bailout oxygen
a 50–100+ pound combat pack with fighting and sustenance gear

You can check the HALO jump rig on Indian Para(SF) here:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... /Para3.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... /Para1.jpg

You can check interesting graphic on HALO/HAHO here:

http://www.ayeshaairbd.com/products/parachute.htm

Static Line jumps happen at 1,000-1,500 feet.

[jimmy_moh]

so basically HALO jump is very expensive considering their equipments right......?

[saurav.jha]

How advanced is JHMS in US f-16,F-18s that Pukistan has ordered in comparison to the Elbit Su 967 we use in our Su-30...A detailed analysis will be very much appreciated...

[shiv]

Are the hovercraft "tubes" or whatever you call them, bullet proof? And what about rubber dinghies used by SFs?

Murphygaru - those rubber side things on hovercraft are "skirts" and do not have to be 100% airtight - in fact air escapes from below. I am sure a few bullet holes will make little difference.

[andy B]

How advanced is JHMS in US f-16,F-18s that Pukistan has ordered in comparison to the Elbit Su 967 we use in our Su-30...A detailed analysis will be very much appreciated...

Aiyooo on BR when one asks a queschun for detailed analysis, BRfites expect the said person to do some basic research themselves....suggest ask google chacha phirst and see what he says....

AFAIK the one used on ze Rambha is not an elbit sight but a sura k something the elbit is ze HUD onlee...

Also the effectiveness of HMDs is also tied directly to what wvr aams they are using onlee....no point in being able to see extreme off boresight if your aam is not able to turn and burn to engage ze relevant target onlee...which then brings the queschun to how effective are the relevant aams mated to these HMDs? IMO ze 9x, P5, R73/74 and ze iris-t would be matched very closely onlee....

Also these days HMDs are not only used for air to air work but very imp for mud moving roles too...the new mantra is displaying as much info heads up so as to spend minimum time heads down this can be seen in the newer sights for ze 35, ef, rafale, ityadi...

[Gerard]

queschun onlee ze phirst Aiyooo

Please note that the forum language is English

[Anshul]

Rohit, it may be something on the lines of Indian commission ? didn't pre independence officers get KC for king's commission ?

Rahul Bhai...it is "Indian Commission" indeed.Confirmed from a serving major .

[Tanaji]

Static Line jumps happen at 1,000-1,500 feet.

Er, this may be true for military for which I have no idea.

For civilian use, static lines occur at 3000 feet or so. 1000 feet is the bare minimum with no margin for error, in fact most AADs will deploy at 1000 feet - 750 feet.

Since static lines are mostly used in training for parachute control, and getting basic jumping form correct, 1000 feet leaves no margin of error.

[Mayuresh]

Team, the newbie is back -

How feasible would it be to produce an armoured vehicle capable of defeating Man-portable ATGMs? I am assuming that Man-portable ATGMs would not be as potent as vehicle mounted ones.
Such a vehicle could be used to fire long range ATGMs (say range of around 15 km) and could move along with tank columns - much like the NAMICA is intended to do. However, the NAMICA, being based on BMP-II, would have weaker armour and be extremely susceptible to man-portable ATGMs carried by enemy infantry special forces which could move much ahead of their advancing tank columns to destroy our tanks / NAMICAs.

Such a vehicle (assuming it has a powerful engine, etc. and weighing much more than tanks) would be able to take out enemy tanks at much larger distances due to long range ATGMs

[neerajb]

Crossposting from LCA dhaga:

This is a bit OT...

But, I don't think we should look at a Military Industrial Complex as a good thing. At least not in the American Capitalist model.

India can create a Military Industrial Complex in total control of the government. It is slow, but steady. Involving private contractors into defense industry will give you results initially, but they will grow into huge monsters with unbeatable lobbies securing their survival through sucking tax money for stupid projects that the nation does not need.

Good points to chew at, Shivji what's your take on this one?

Cheers....

[Bala Vignesh]

Gentlemen,
I have a noob doubt...
why can't we make a cruise missile out of the Lakshaya PTA??? I mean what all things would need to be added to make it happen??? Someone please throw some light on it...

[shiv]

Crossposting from LCA dhaga:

This is a bit OT...

But, I don't think we should look at a Military Industrial Complex as a good thing. At least not in the American Capitalist model.

India can create a Military Industrial Complex in total control of the government. It is slow, but steady. Involving private contractors into defense industry will give you results initially, but they will grow into huge monsters with unbeatable lobbies securing their survival through sucking tax money for stupid projects that the nation does not need.

Good points to chew at, Shivji what's your take on this one?

Cheers....

Neeraj I have no specific take on this. It's an opinion with valid points.

If you go back to say the 50s and 60s you will find that a lot of the innovations in aircraft were from private companies. In fact "Avro" (A.V.Roe and company) goes even further back. Avro became Hawker Siddeley and a whole slew of great aircraft were produced. Similarly across the Atlantic were Boeing, McDonnell, Northrop, Douglas, Gen Dynamics etc- all of which were pvt cos that individually came up with some great designs. France had GAM Dassault.

What actually happened to aircraft industries was as follows. Despite so called "capitalism" the same capitalist economies were fiercely protective of their aircraft industries and there was bias and government support and under the circumstances some private companies could not survive. That led to a massive consolidation where the smaller old private companies were all bought up or merged with others forming multinational mega companies.

Those mega companies are massively important to Western economies. Why? There was a time when "high tech" meant "west. Gradually the manufacture of many hi tech items went east to Japan, Taiwan and Korea. And now China. These included TVs, cameras, cars and consumer items. In the meantime western markets were choked full. Everyone had a car. Everyone had a TV. Ultimately the only real money earning clout in manufacturing retained by the West was in aircraft and aero engines and arms of various types. These are now under pressure from Russia and to a minor extent from China.

India's problem is that in many areas our private companies are just not there yet. And n areas where they are managing to catch up the government has to make sure that payments are made quickly and fairly. But my belief is that private industry is grossly under represented in the Indian arms scenario. Reasons are lack technical ability and lack of market.

[jamwal]

How many members are attending IndeSec 2010 in New Delhi next month ?

[Dmurphy]

Hey did you guys know Suresh Kalmadi was an Air Force Pilot? I just discovered it....

1960 – 1963National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla,Pune
1964Air Force Flying College, Jodhpur and Allahabad
1965Joined the Indian Air Force as Pilot
1964 – 1972Served in the Indian Air Force
1972 – 1974Instructor Air Force Training Team at NDA
1965 – 1971Participated in the Indo-Pak war
Recipient of eight medals in his career with IAF

Source: http://www.sureshkalmadi.org/biography/

[S_Pawar]

Hey did you guys know Suresh Kalmadi was an Air Force Pilot? I just discovered it....

1960 – 1963National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla,Pune
1964Air Force Flying College, Jodhpur and Allahabad
1965Joined the Indian Air Force as Pilot
1964 – 1972Served in the Indian Air Force
1972 – 1974Instructor Air Force Training Team at NDA
1965 – 1971Participated in the Indo-Pak war
Recipient of eight medals in his career with IAF

Source: http://www.sureshkalmadi.org/biography/

also his Father Dr. Shamrao Kalmadi was a freedom fighter.

[ranjithnath]

just got this tit-bit from a friend of mine who had an IV to brahmos plant in tvm.he said he saw kaveri engine parts being produced in small numbers in 5 axis CNC machines(had a long arguement with him when he said it was being mass produced based on the fact that GTX35VS is still undergoin high altitude trials in russia.later he settled for limited production)he also claims to have seen an airbooster rocket for K15/sagarika missile.(PS:hes not a military buff nor a jingo )

[vivekmehta]

hi
i just jot this link while surfing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_class_submarine it talks about INDIA CLASS SUBMARINES in Russian navy .
though it dosent have any link with India. i just want to know does any one hav info that why it was called India class

thanks

[neerajb]

Planning to visit IAF museum, Palam. Cameras are not allowed inside the museum premises. Is there any way ( special permission etc) by which I can take the camera along?

Cheers....

[Rahul M]

hi
i just jot this link while surfing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_class_submarine it talks about INDIA CLASS SUBMARINES in Russian navy .
though it dosent have any link with India. i just want to know does any one hav info that why it was called India class

thanks

those are NATO reporting names. it doesn't mean anything. there was a yankee class as well.

they usually used words from the phonetic alphabets like alfa, charlie, juliet, hotel, India, yankee, zulu etc.

[Bala Vignesh]

Hey Rahul sir, what's with the maths tables as your location???

[Natt]

Planning to visit IAF museum, Palam. Cameras are not allowed inside the museum premises. Is there any way ( special permission etc) by which I can take the camera along?

Cheers....

I think you can ask at the gate. I have taken a camera inside once. Even if you are not allowed to take your camera, there is an official photographer inside who can take your pics, you just have to buy the prints from him.

[Aaryan]

Sir I have a question, what is the difference between a regular infantry regiment and a light infantry regiment.. I hope its not a very childish question..

[ronjon.d]

I am not quite sure for the Indian Army, but usually the difference between "regular" and "light" infantry would be that the latter is moving without organic transport (trucks, infantry combat vehicles, armored personell carriers, etc). Light infantry could be rifles, paratroopers, air assault, amphibious or mountain.
Infantry usually fights on foot, whereas light infantry even moves to combat on foot


I hope this answers your very good question.

[ronjon.d]

hi
i just jot this link while surfing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_class_submarine it talks about INDIA CLASS SUBMARINES in Russian navy .
though it dosent have any link with India. i just want to know does any one hav info that why it was called India class

thanks

The term "India"-class is derived from the NATO-Alphabet, where W denotes Whiskey and I denotes India, look for Oscar or Papa class soviet submarines. Exception Typhoon class, because Tango for T had already been taken.

[Gaur]

Sir I have a question, what is the difference between a regular infantry regiment and a light infantry regiment.. I hope its not a very childish question..

I am not quite sure for the Indian Army, but usually the difference between "regular" and "light" infantry would be that the latter is moving without organic transport (trucks, infantry combat vehicles, armored personell carriers, etc). Light infantry could be rifles, paratroopers, air assault, amphibious or mountain.
Infantry usually fights on foot, whereas light infantry even moves to combat on foot


I hope this answers your very good question.

Light Infantry does not use vehicles and moves to combat on foot!
Well, this is definitely not how it is in IA. In fact the difference b/n regular infantry and light infantry is very minimal. Much was discussed regarding this topic in the IA thread:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1680
Look for the similar question raised by Atri in the above link.

[Rahul M]

..........

username changed to 'ronjon.d' . you can request for a human sounding name of your choice if you want.
Rahul.

bala, just put it in google and see what you get.
why sir though ?

[shiv]

quote="Dmurphy" Hey did you guys know Suresh Kalmadi was an Air Force Pilot? I just discovered it....

1960 – 1963National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla,Pune
1964Air Force Flying College, Jodhpur and Allahabad
1965Joined the Indian Air Force as Pilot
1964 – 1972Served in the Indian Air Force
1972 – 1974Instructor Air Force Training Team at NDA
1965 – 1971Participated in the Indo-Pak war
Recipient of eight medals in his career with IAF

Source: http://www.sureshkalmadi.org/biography/

also his Father Dr. Shamrao Kalmadi was a freedom fighter.

I knew his father and Suresh and his brothers well and have played with the younger ones as a boy. Suresh was the oldest I actually attended Suresh Kalmadi's wedding in the 1960s. I had a sip of champagne despite being underage. He was a transport pilot and used to fly An 12s in those days. I am not sure if his father was a freedom fighter or not - but he was a practising doctor and a fun man - always the life of the party. He was called Dr Rao and not Dr Kalmadi. Suresh's brothers too did well and end up owning petrol pumps, restaurants and car dealerships in Pune.

[rohitvats]

Sir I have a question, what is the difference between a regular infantry regiment and a light infantry regiment.. I hope its not a very childish question..

There are two ways to look at that question: Regimental Sytems (and historic context) and Operation deployment requirements in modern times.

Under Regimental System, definition of Light infantry Regiments is this (from Wiki):

Traditionally light infantry (or skirmishers) were soldiers whose job was to provide a skirmishing screen ahead of the main body of infantry, harassing and delaying the enemy advance. Light infantry was distinct from medium, heavy or line infantry. Heavy infantry were dedicated primarily to fighting in tight formations that were the core of large battles. Light infantry often fought in close co-ordination with heavy infantry, where they could screen the heavy infantry from harassing fire, and the heavy infantry could intervene to protect the light infantry from attacks of enemy heavy infantry or cavalry. Heavy infantry originally had heavier arms and more armour than light infantry, but this distinction was lost as the use of armour declined and gunpowder weapons became standardized.

Light infantry were equipped more lightly than regular line regiments, and marched at 140 paces per minute.

Rifle Regiments (like Rajputana Rifles or The Rifles or Royal Green Jacket- British Army) can be considered as cousins of Light Regiments.

In present Indian Army, Sikh LI or Maratha LI is same as Sikh or Rajput Regiments. Equipped on same scale and for same task.

Light formations in modern context are forces which are equipped for expeditionary roles - like US Army 101st and 82nd Airborne Divisions.

PS: Just read the reason behind the bugle in the Badge of most of the Rifle/Light Regiments - read this:

While most regiments fought in tight formation, allowing easy administration of orders; with light infantry working in small groups, in advance of the main line, complicated bugle calls were developed to pass orders. Because of the use of the bugle, rather than the standard line infantry drum, the bugle horn had been the badge of light infantry regiments since 1770, adapted from the Hanoverian Jaegar regiments, and became standard for the newly formed Light Infantry regiments, since it represented the bugle calls used for skirmishing orders

Check the badges here:

http://www.euttaranchal.com/education/i ... rifles.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... aratha.gif
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5DTFKMhWm9E/S ... ifles2.gif

Another thing - the rank stars on officers and side arm ranks on PBOR are black on color.

[neerajb]

Planning to visit IAF museum, Palam. Cameras are not allowed inside the museum premises. Is there any way ( special permission etc) by which I can take the camera along?

Cheers....

I think you can ask at the gate. I have taken a camera inside once. Even if you are not allowed to take your camera, there is an official photographer inside who can take your pics, you just have to buy the prints from him.

Thanks. Last time I had to click the Mig-25 with a mobile camera and the photo quality was crap. I just wish that they allow me to take the camera inside. Anyway I need the pics of the aircraft in digital format and not me.

Cheers....

[rohitvats]

[quote="neerajb

<snip>

Thanks. Last time I had to click the Mig-25 with a mobile camera and the photo quality was crap. I just wish that they allow me to take the camera inside. Anyway I need the pics of the aircraft in digital format and not me.

Cheers....[/quote]

neerajb, can you tell me how to reach the Museum? Where is it? Thanx.

[neerajb]

Rohit the Museum is near Indian Oil Depot on Dwarka road (leading to Dwarka flyover). If you are coming from Gurgaon side, take a right at the roundabout on Airport road towards Dwarka (straight one goes to domestic terminal). After crossing the underpass, take a left from the red light (actually a U turn) (Indian oil depot on right) towards the Palam road. You need to go back towards the domestic terminal on Palam road. It will be on the right hand side. Museum is open from 10 am to 5 pm on all weekdays except monday and tuesday.

Cheers....

[Mayuresh]

Team, the newbie is back - I had posted this before but with no reply

How feasible would it be to design an armoured vehicle capable of defeating Man-portable ATGMs? I am assuming that Man-portable ATGMs would not be as potent as vehicle mounted ones due to their smaller size.
Such a vehicle could be used to fire long range ATGMs (say range of around 15 km) and could move along with tank columns - much like the NAMICA is intended to do. However, the NAMICA, being based on BMP-II, would have weaker armour and be extremely susceptible to man-portable ATGMs carried by enemy infantry special forces which could move much ahead of their advancing tank columns to destroy our tanks / NAMICAs.

Such a vehicle (assuming it has a powerful engine, strong armour etc.) would be able to take out enemy tanks at much larger distances due to long range ATGMs. - The only danger to such a vehicle is from man-porable ATGMs (and probably tank-fired ATGMs if they have the range)

That actually is the second Q - I tried to do some research, but could not find the range of ATGMs fired from the tank's main gun.

[Bala Vignesh]

Gentlemen,
I have a noob doubt...
why can't we make a cruise missile out of the Lakshaya PTA??? I mean what all things would need to be added to make it happen??? Someone please throw some light on it...

People I am asking this question again in light of the the following..
Iran's New Unmanned Bomber Drone 'Karrar' Unveiled


Could someone please shed some light on this???

[andy B]

Bala saar, IMVHO kind of a moot point to convert Lakshya into a CM considering we have brahmos and now nirbhay in the pipeline.

Besides let us wait till the pic clears up a bit on nirbhay who is to say that stuff from Lakshya (parts and knowledge) is/was not used in Nirbhay?

On another note look at the design of CM from past and present, they have a long slender body with thin short wings and tail fins, IMO the Lakshya's wings are too broad for a CM.

I do think that a more useful way to utilise the Lakshya is that given it has a decent payload and range pack a nice big jammer into it and send a pack over tibet then send terrain hugging nirbhays and supersonic brahmos and watch the big bird of tongchi go... JMT onlee

[shiv]

Gentlemen,
I have a noob doubt...
why can't we make a cruise missile out of the Lakshaya PTA??? I mean what all things would need to be added to make it happen??? Someone please throw some light on it...

People I am asking this question again in light of the the following..
Iran's New Unmanned Bomber Drone 'Karrar' Unveiled


Could someone please shed some light on this???

Well thanks for putting this up

Here is a news item from the Deccan Herald
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/906 ... death.html

The goal of the aircraft, named Karrar or striker, is to “keep the enemy paralysed in its bases,” he said adding that the aircraft is for deterrence and defensive purposes.

The president championed the country’s military self-sufficiency programme, and said it will continue “until the enemies of humanity lose hope of ever attacking the Iranian nation.”

Iran launched an arms development programme during its 1980-88 war with Iraq to compensate for a US weapons embargo and now produces its own tanks, armoured personnel carries, missiles and even a fighter plane.

Iran frequently makes announcements about new advances in military technology that cannot be independently verified.

State TV later showed video footage of the plane taking off from a launching pad and reported that the craft travelled at a speed of 900 km per hour and could alternatively be armed with two 250-pound bombs or a 450-pound guided bomb.

Over the years I have collected some info about Iran's mysterious but seemingly sophisticated efforts. Click on images