Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Dec 2011 12:36

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote:IT is 22nd already what is happening in bluru
Goundnut festival (kadalekayi parishe) happened a couple of weeks ago. People preparing for Sabarimalai now. Getting colder.

Pilots should make the trip to Sabarimala in LSP7 &/or NP1

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 24 Dec 2011 12:05

So much is being said about the Read Estate bubble in China. A weakening of Chinese economy could have both good and bad implications for India.
Is there a thread here in BR on Chinese economy (especially the problems of it)?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Dec 2011 17:35

You might want to check the technology and economic forum. We have a vibrant thread on the Chinese economy with a good deal of participation from the Chinese themselves . The older thread has been closed down as it reached 100 pages. A newer one has recently been started. The thread is fairly informative .

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 25 Dec 2011 00:19

^Thanks gakakkad

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2011 04:58

US Borden Institute publications on Military medicine:

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/published.html

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 28 Dec 2011 18:13

Got Missiles?

Dock workers in the port of Kotka were suspicious of ill-packed crates labeled "fireworks" on a ship bound from Germany to Shanghai. While adding to the existing cargo on the British-owned Thor Liberty, they found the explosive picric acid in open containers as well as the Patriots. Picric acid is a propellant (making one wonder where the radars and command-and-control systems are that complete the Patriot package). Traffic safety authorities took control of the ship and Finnish officials are questioning the two senior officers.

The head of Finland's National Bureau of Investigation said that although there are customs documents showing a valid transaction and a legal end-user – South Korea – there are at least two crimes involved: the shippers did not request permission to transit missiles and explosives via Finland; and the explosives were not properly packed and safeguarded.

There are probably more crimes than that. If the missiles were moving legally, why were the crates labeled "fireworks" and why was the packing insecure to begin with?

Dr. Stephen Bryen, former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense and first head of the Defense Technology Security Agency, noted that Patriot missiles do not move routinely or easily. "If South Korea wanted to buy them, it would have had to ask the Germans (where the missiles came from) to ask the US for permission. Because of the sensitivity of the shipment and the fact that these missiles are controlled under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MCTR), the movement would also need Congressional approval. And it is unlikely the South Koreans would need propellant.

"No German export official," he added, "would issue documents of this kind without the government's approval, and there is no reason to believe that the German government would authorize such a transfer without American approval. American law says that arms exports need to be shipped in U.S. flagged ships." More likely than South Korea, Bryen posits the customs documents as forgeries and Iran as the end-user, planning to get not only the missiles, but also technical support from China.

FWIW, it is a US based site that doing the reporting.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 30 Dec 2011 21:52

Newbie question:

What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2011 21:54

devaraj_d wrote:What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?

A rhetorical answer to that would be the same thing that stops you from breaking the law of the land, or raping your neighbors wife - respect for the law

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Dec 2011 23:19

devaraj_d wrote:Newbie question:

What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?

morals and belief in democracy.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 31 Dec 2011 04:32

Rahul M wrote:
devaraj_d wrote:Newbie question:

What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?
morals and belief in democracy.

I suspect you asked this question on BR from an operational rather than philosophical/moral perspective. To the other responses I would add, also pragmatism, realism and a strong institutional desire to remain a professional fighting force(s). This is a very risky task in a country like India and several things have to go right for it to work. Its just not feasable and even if it went flawlessly would severely impact their ability to do their main role. Can I emphasise, there is ZERO desire amongst the forces for a takeover. Its not even crossed their minds.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Dec 2011 16:57

What kind of bombs are secured by clutch like this ? I've never seen something like this in use before.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 31 Dec 2011 17:01

jamwal wrote:What kind of bombs are secured by clutch like this ? I've never seen something like this in use before.

The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) GBU-31 is a tailkit under development to meet both USAF and Navy needs, with the Air Force as the lead service. The program will produce a weapon with high accuracy, all-weather, autonomous, conventional bombing capability. JDAM will upgrade the existing inventory of general purpose and penetrator unitary bombs, and a product improvement may add a terminal seeker to improve accuracy. JDAM can be launched from approximately 15 miles from the target and each is independently targeted.

Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) GBU-29, GBU-30, GBU-31, GBU-32

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 01 Jan 2012 15:01

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
I suspect you asked this question on BR from an operational rather than philosophical/moral perspective. To the other responses I would add, also pragmatism, realism and a strong institutional desire to remain a professional fighting force(s). This is a very risky task in a country like India and several things have to go right for it to work. Its just not feasable and even if it went flawlessly would severely impact their ability to do their main role. Can I emphasise, there is ZERO desire amongst the forces for a takeover. Its not even crossed their minds.

It was an open question from my side. I wanted to know what the Gurus thought. Thanks for all of your replies.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2012 11:45

Lots of info on mortars etc:

http://www.inert-ord.net/index.html#home

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 03 Jan 2012 10:26

Rahul M wrote:
devaraj_d wrote:Newbie question:

What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?
morals and belief in democracy.

With due respect to the army, I think many factors collectively act to prohibit such a move. some of them being cultural diversity within the army, a strong constitutional framework which also makes it the lengthiest amongst all soveriegn countries, command & structure of the Army and most importantly a rational civilian society.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2012 12:43

to 'prohibit' something that desire has to exist in the first place. there is no such desire in our military that needs to be prohibited. the military is the ultimate protector of India and by extension, her democratic structure.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 03 Jan 2012 14:24

Rahul M wrote:to 'prohibit' something that desire has to exist in the first place. there is no such desire in our military that needs to be prohibited. the military is the ultimate protector of India and by extension, her democratic structure.

certain desires are prohibitive in nature in certain communities. However the same desires may be perceived lieniently in other places. In this context desire may be the effect and strength of prohibitive forces be the cause. Although i agree there is no such desire in our military. but why is this so ? isnt morals and belief in democracy itself a prohibitive force?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 03 Jan 2012 14:27

Hi, I have a very rudimentary question about OROP. I have tried to understand this issue based on the news articles. Following is my understanding: A Lt.Col retiring in 1960 who is alive (or anyone entitled to his/her pension) and a Lt. Col retiring in 2011 will get different pension amount. The 1960 retiree will get pension based on his final salary at the time of his retirement whereas 2011 retiree will get a pension based on his final salary.

This implies due to the fall in Rupee and tremendous inflation, a 1960 retiree Lt.Col might not be able to maintain even basic standard of living in 2011. How is the pension paid for other govt. officials? (ex. IPS, IAS, IFS retirees? do 1970s retired IFS officers also struggle to meet basic expenses like Defense officers?) Is the OROP applied only to Army or is it applicable to IAF and IN?

I am unable to grasp this problem, on one hand we want young people to join defense forces and the ones who retired are in this shitty situation. Basically, it seems our forces need to depend on Emotional Commitment for recruiting without sufficient Rational-commitment support from GOI.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2012 15:56

>> isnt morals and belief in democracy itself a prohibitive force?

as much as goodness of heart is a prohibitive force against thievery.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Jan 2012 16:20

Very nicely put, Rahulda

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 03 Jan 2012 17:40

prahaar,

the biggest difference is the military almost "forces" one to leave after 20 years of service- so generally the actual retirement age works out to around 39-46 for most military officers. This early retirement is what keeps the army young. In civil services, one works till age 60.

So proportionally there are many more people from military who have retired in 1980, since their age is now 75 where as for civil their age would be 90.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 03 Jan 2012 20:16

Virupaksha,
My question is more related to pay structure commonality i.e.
(IA Officer retiring in 1960 and IA offer retiring in 2011 at the same rank) vs (IPS officer retiring in 1960 vs 2011 at the same rank), and if possible the wage equivalence between equivalent rank.

And if you can indulge me further:
Pension amount earned in 2011 by = (IA Officer retiring in 1960 at Rank X) vs (IPS officer retiring in 1960 at an equivalent Rank X)

I am unable to understand the problem still. Also how is OROP related to retiring age (I am assuming situation where people are retired by the Army, it is not voluntary retirement)? My impression is that the whole debate is about a SM (or any rank/officer) who is WW-II veteran earning pittance compared to a SM who is a Kargil veteran. Until recently I was in a dreamland where all Major or SM or Col or Hawaldaar were equal irrespective of their retirement date.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 03 Jan 2012 21:37

Rahul M wrote:>> isnt morals and belief in democracy itself a prohibitive force?

as much as goodness of heart is a prohibitive force against thievery.

Rahul, i do agree certain values stand guard against misdeeds. but the dilemma is why does corruption manage to seep in while hostility doesn't. is it the magnitude of offence or certain informal norms within an institution that leads us to this paradox ? also would it be appropriate to generalise that each and every member in an institution posses the same intensity of values and beleifs. if yes why would there be a few bad apples ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2012 23:07

I get your point. the answer IMO is that you need a lot more than a few bad apples, an institution wide basket of bad apples rather to create a desire for a military takeover.

in that, the military reflects the nature of Indian society at large, corrupt or not, we do have widespread grassroot support for democracy. in addition, the people who get selected are carefully chosen and put through a grind that inculcates a strong moral value.
while it isn't 100% successful, the output is considerably less corrupt than Indian society at large. and when the desire for a non democratic form of government is miniscule in Indian society, it is unsurprisingly even lower in the ones who get selected into the military.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 04 Jan 2012 00:31

Rahul M wrote:the answer IMO is that you need a lot more than a few bad apples, an institution wide basket of bad apples rather to create a desire for a military takeover.

This was the nail in the coffin. Now i understand what you meant by 'desire being nonexistent' by and large and hence inevident in the 'institutional setup

'

Rahul M wrote:in that, the military reflects the nature of Indian society at large, corrupt or not, we do have widespread grassroot support for democracy. in addition, the people who get selected are carefully chosen and put through a grind that inculcates a strong moral value.
while it isn't 100% successful, the output is considerably less corrupt than Indian society at large. and when the desire for a non democratic form of government is miniscule in Indian society, it is unsurprisingly even lower in the ones who get selected into the military

Perhaps an ideal soceity is envisioned in the constituitional framework. Although dysfunctinal in some aspects democracy by virtue of constitutional setup does guard the core interests of citizens. Nevertheless i stand convinced with your view.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 06 Jan 2012 17:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort
Letters of last resort
Interesting thing,maybe we should incorporate it in INS Arihant.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 07 Jan 2012 07:35

devaraj_d wrote:Newbie question:

What is stopping / has stopped the Indian military taking over the government?

This might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faXldROcQso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EbOqj9- ... ure=relmfu

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 07 Jan 2012 11:51

Didn't know if i could ask this in LCA thread (probably discussed to death) so asking it here.

Gurus please enlighten,The LCA in its current form AFAIK is having only one major issue of being under power at certain altitudes.

1.) not that i know much about Jag, but as a mangoe man If Jag which is under powered for its current role can used effectively
with some unique Jag specific tactics developed by IAF, then why not LCA in current form. why this obsession of MK-2

2.) As far as AESA radar is concerned why does MK-2 or for that matter any LCA require it. why cant LCA be used as last line of defence and also we have AWACS that changes scenario for good.

3.) was it the IAF that asked for an MK-2?

4.) wouldn't it make more sense to use the current form of LCA to be mass produced instead of waiting for MK-2 which i suppose once made will require another FOC

Thanks in advance.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 14 Jan 2012 13:48

How is the Nerpa expected to arrive in India - by barge or self-powered?

if the latter, who would be the crew for the duration of the journey? IN, perhaps, hasn't yet mapped the complete ocean floor of the route that would need to be taken.
Russians would have. Will the data be shared for this journey, or will it be Russian personnel at stations needed for navigation, and once moored in India, Indian crew will be wholly in-charge?

Found this pic of a few sailors from INS Chakra 1. The one, second from left appears Caucasian, Russian

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 16 Jan 2012 15:55

during the winter time.. still there will be millitary presence in siachin out posts.... or they will retreat to basecamp

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Jan 2012 18:41

Ganesh_S wrote:
This was the nail in the coffin. Now i understand what you meant by 'desire being nonexistent' by and large and hence inevident in the 'institutional setup
............
Perhaps an ideal soceity is envisioned in the constituitional framework. Although dysfunctinal in some aspects democracy by virtue of constitutional setup does guard the core interests of citizens. Nevertheless i stand convinced with your view.

I came across a book that you should find very interesting.

Militarism in India: the army and civil society in consensus
Apurba Kundu

http://books.google.co.in/books/about/M ... 9uAAAAMAAJ

it tackles the very question you are asking, why does the Indian military, unlike most other militaries of the 3rd world not interested in taking over power. in it, the author interviews over a 100 senior officers and covers the full gamut of military's position in society since independence.
most interestingly, there's a chapter on whether military would have agreed if IG wanted to continue her emergency rule with forces' help. till that time the emergency was still technically constitutional. the overwhelming consensus (90% of the officers) was that they won't have, with a significant portion saying they would have considered bringing down a despotic govt and help hold elections.

In many states in the developing world, tensions between the armed forces and a civilian government have sometimes led to the extreme sanction of a military coup d'etat. India remains one of the exceptions. Despite great ethnic, religious, regional and economic challenges to the existing order, her military officers have remained loyal to the legitimate government of the day.

Based on extensive work with senior military figures, this book examines the remarkable consensus of purpose between Indian officers and their civil counterparts in the construction and maintenance of civil supremacy-of-rule.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 05:04

PDF on instructions to NDA freshers

LINK

koti · Post by **koti** » 17 Jan 2012 17:28

Russian camo pattern.
http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?atta ... 1326654667
Visual camo from both top and bottom

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 18 Jan 2012 05:03

Rahul M wrote:
Ganesh_S wrote:
This was the nail in the coffin. Now i understand what you meant by 'desire being nonexistent' by and large and hence inevident in the 'institutional setup
............
Perhaps an ideal soceity is envisioned in the constituitional framework. Although dysfunctinal in some aspects democracy by virtue of constitutional setup does guard the core interests of citizens. Nevertheless i stand convinced with your view.
I came across a book that you should find very interesting.

Militarism in India: the army and civil society in consensus
Apurba Kundu

http://books.google.co.in/books/about/M ... 9uAAAAMAAJ

it tackles the very question you are asking, why does the Indian military, unlike most other militaries of the 3rd world not interested in taking over power. in it, the author interviews over a 100 senior officers and covers the full gamut of military's position in society since independence.
most interestingly, there's a chapter on whether military would have agreed if IG wanted to continue her emergency rule with forces' help. till that time the emergency was still technically constitutional. the overwhelming consensus (90% of the officers) was that they won't have, with a significant portion saying they would have considered bringing down a despotic govt and help hold elections.

In many states in the developing world, tensions between the armed forces and a civilian government have sometimes led to the extreme sanction of a military coup d'etat. India remains one of the exceptions. Despite great ethnic, religious, regional and economic challenges to the existing order, her military officers have remained loyal to the legitimate government of the day.

Based on extensive work with senior military figures, this book examines the remarkable consensus of purpose between Indian officers and their civil counterparts in the construction and maintenance of civil supremacy-of-rule.

That should be a good read. Thanks for the courtsey.

One amateur thought on this. Is there any role the military establishment can play on behalf of the citizens in case india heads towards a political monopoly which threatens to destabilise the interest of our nation, in the sense that a wide spread system failure prevails. can the military intervene in any way ? (assuming the president acts as a puppet)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jan 2012 06:17

Ganesh_S wrote:
One amateur thought on this. Is there any role the military establishment can play on behalf of the citizens in case india heads towards a political monopoly which threatens to destabilise the interest of our nation, in the sense that a wide spread system failure prevails. can the military intervene in any way ? (assuming the president acts as a puppet)

That would be called a military coup. The military is an arm of the government, not a separate body. If you remove the military discipline and loyalty the military operates exactly like the government with the same bureaucratic procedures and babu like referring back to rules and procedures.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jan 2012 11:11

as long as a govt is democratically elected and sticks to its constitution mandated terms and holds elections in time, the military would stay loyal, or so precedence tells us.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jan 2012 21:24

Here is a topical article about civil-military relations
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 527513.cms

Most informed commentators know India does not follow a declassification policy, with disastrous if less widely known consequences.
<snip>
The significance is twofold. Current and future generations are unaware about their past and, more crucially, existing bureaucracies are unable to self-analyse. The latter is a particularly debilitating flaw as even correctives to existing bureaucracies are personality-based and opinion-driven. It is not surprising therefore that, with every change of service chief, we have new ideas and opinions on what ails the system. As all policy change is opinion-driven, the system lacks stability.
<snip>
The final consequence stemming from a lack of declassification is visited upon members of the armed forces. Without scholarly and neutral accounts, most Indians are unaware of the tremendous sacrifices made by the men and women in uniform. Thus uniquely India does not have a national war museum and its national war memorial was one built by the British to honour those who died for the empire. Simply put, there is a distance between Indian society and its soldiers.

India`s case is not unique among developing countries. But it indicates a truism missed by most political scientists. Declassification helps bridge the gap between civilians and the military and, more importantly, enhances civilian control. Hence, studies of the military based on official documents will enable a more informed civil-military dialogue and not allow senior military officers to maintain a monopoly on policy with claims of special expertise. While this is a chicken-and-egg problem, one way to consolidate civilian control in countries with this problem - think Pakistan and Egypt, for instance - is to insist upon this procedure.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 19 Jan 2012 10:02

shiv, Is this blog about the same report mentioned in your article

http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... penditure/

The Arun Singh Committee’s report, known to be excellent, still bears the “top secret” classification and continues to gather dust in some official pigeon-hole.

The parliamentary standing committee on defence in the tenth Lok Sabha (April 1994, Second report, page 13) had asked the government to declassify the report. The demand has been repeated ad infinitum since, but governments of all political shades — Congress, BJP and Third Front — have chosen not to bring that report out

this being from your article

Eventually the request for the documents was denied but, when i appealed to the CIC, there was an even more alarming development. The ministry claimed that it could not locate five of the six documents including the critical 1990 Committee on Defence Expenditure report. In other words, documents that were not declassified on account of national security could not be found!

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 20 Jan 2012 14:50

shiv wrote:Here is a topical article about civil-military relations
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 527513.cms
Most informed commentators know India does not follow a declassification policy, with disastrous if less widely known consequences.
<snip>
The significance is twofold. Current and future generations are unaware about their past and, more crucially, existing bureaucracies are unable to self-analyse. The latter is a particularly debilitating flaw as even correctives to existing bureaucracies are personality-based and opinion-driven. It is not surprising therefore that, with every change of service chief, we have new ideas and opinions on what ails the system. As all policy change is opinion-driven, the system lacks stability.
<snip>
The final consequence stemming from a lack of declassification is visited upon members of the armed forces. Without scholarly and neutral accounts, most Indians are unaware of the tremendous sacrifices made by the men and women in uniform. Thus uniquely India does not have a national war museum and its national war memorial was one built by the British to honour those who died for the empire. Simply put, there is a distance between Indian society and its soldiers.

India`s case is not unique among developing countries. But it indicates a truism missed by most political scientists. Declassification helps bridge the gap between civilians and the military and, more importantly, enhances civilian control. Hence, studies of the military based on official documents will enable a more informed civil-military dialogue and not allow senior military officers to maintain a monopoly on policy with claims of special expertise. While this is a chicken-and-egg problem, one way to consolidate civilian control in countries with this problem - think Pakistan and Egypt, for instance - is to insist upon this procedure.

grave concerns exist but difficult to assume declasification policy alone might be significant in determining civil military relationship. IMO reforms are primarily needed in the political system. for eg in the civilian set up power and money goes hand in hand, collectively they determine the outcome of a discourse. while this exist it is difficult to visualise a political system that responds to an ethical perspective, in the sense a dedication towards long term development of the society.

while many of us (including myself) blame corruption for the pathetic state of affairs, we often fail to ask one fundamental question. what legal provision do politicians have in order to recover their expenditure incurred during elections? would it make sense to assume that honesty prevails under such circumstances ? IMO it is because of this inherent weakness, we see political parties contesting on the basis of capabilities rather than ideologies. this is to say the latter would be an ideal state. IMO political instability prevailing due to inherent weakness in the political system happens to be the root cause for military takeovers in many states.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 20 Jan 2012 16:19

The army chief age saga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... RlT4dIPehs#!