Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3518
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby fanne » 09 Oct 2008 00:18

RayC Sir,
I want to know how do I handle say really a pig without saying him/her so and 1) Either make him see my viewpoint or 2)Really insult him into silence. This is really a serious question, I would really like to learn. Of course you have your way with words.
Thanks,
fanne

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Oct 2008 18:40

Ok here are some newbie questions...

1) What does one mean when the flight strategy is set to lo-lo-lo config. For that matter whats lo-lo-hi config and perhaps any other config with similar 'nameology'?

2) What are constraints of using an aircraft in a maritime role? I'm referring to the Jaguar-IMs. What special structural/aerodynamic changes does it have to undergo before it can used for ASW or anti ship warfare? That also brings me to another question...

3) Why are some missiles (cruise and A2G) designed specially for marine use? On land or over the sea, they have to perform the same role, isnt it?

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Oct 2008 18:45

Here's more... :-o

The Gripen boasts of being able to take off and land on vehicular roads. Is it only because of its light weight or any other aerodynamic config? What makes the other aircrafts (similar/heavier) incapable of the same?

Please dont get pissed with me guys..I'm still just taking my first steps towards Guruism :lol:
Ofcourse, I try and look for info on these topics before i stick my neck out here.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10094
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby sum » 10 Oct 2008 19:44

To all jingoes,
What is RoP?seems to be a new BRF formulation!!!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby RayC » 10 Oct 2008 22:12

fanne wrote:RayC Sir,
I want to know how do I handle say really a pig without saying him/her so and 1) Either make him see my viewpoint or 2)Really insult him into silence. This is really a serious question, I would really like to learn. Of course you have your way with words.
Thanks,
fanne


By calling a pig a pig, you are not saying anything that will shock a pig. If by calling a pig so, and if it makes no difference to a pig's status, you are merely huffing an puffing.

Why must you force people to see your viewpoint? Just say your case and then debate it out, even if the other person does not see your viewpoint, as you obviously in turn, would not be seeing his viewpoint!

Why have you to insult people into silence? You could silence them without insults and instead present irrefutable facts that would leave him spellbound!

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 831
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Oct 2008 08:45

Yesterday noon I saw an IL-76 type AWAACS over Kuala Lumpur, most probably it was going to land over KLIA. Can some guru shed some light whether that was russian A-50 or Chinese KJ-2000? I have never seen that plane before over here. Is it standard for airforces to send their AWAACs to other countries like this? One more observation, the rotodome looked like it was rotating.

Cheers....

malushahi
BRFite
Posts: 351
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 03:08
Location: South of Berkshires

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby malushahi » 13 Oct 2008 09:54

neerajbhandari wrote:One more observation, the rotodome looked like it was rotating.


Any chance it looked like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -13416.jpg

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Oct 2008 10:45

malushahi wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote:One more observation, the rotodome looked like it was rotating.


Any chance it looked like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -13416.jpg


He said he saw an Il-76! You gotto give him the benefit of doubt.

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 831
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Oct 2008 11:21

malushahi wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote:One more observation, the rotodome looked like it was rotating.


Any chance it looked like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -13416.jpg


It was not an E-2. What made that special was that only Russian and Chinese (India in near future) are known to operate such type of aircraft. So what does a chinese/russian AWAACS doing in Malaysia?

Cheers....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Oct 2008 11:35

neeraj, are you sure it was an Il-76 or could it had been any other turbofan equipped civvy ?
could it have been the E-3 sentry ? it also has a rotating radome.
http://www.flygplan.info/images/NATO%20E-3%20AWACS.jpg

AFAIK, the chinese A-50 equivalent uses AESA and doesn't feature a Rotodome.

malushahi
BRFite
Posts: 351
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 03:08
Location: South of Berkshires

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby malushahi » 13 Oct 2008 11:37

neerajbhandari wrote:It was not an E-2. What made that special was that only Russian and Chinese (India in near future) are known to operate such type of aircraft. So what does a chinese/russian AWAACS doing in Malaysia?

Cheers....


neeraj/DMurphy: My comment was in the context of recent Malaysian interest in acquiring 8 AWACS. I could be wrong, but I think, Malaysians still have some way to fall to the levels of Pakis buying Han hardware. My guess would side on the A-50, if it indeed was an IL airframe (but then I recollect they were pitching for the E-2C).

malushahi
BRFite
Posts: 351
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 03:08
Location: South of Berkshires

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby malushahi » 13 Oct 2008 11:49

neerajbhandari wrote:Chinese KJ-2000


BTW, forgot to mention that KJ-2000 per Han propaganda has an "electronically steered phased-array", and therefore does not have a rotating radome.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Oct 2008 11:53

OK malu bhai, got your point :D

By the way, somebody please come up with some answers to these queries i posted earlier...

Dmurphy wrote:Ok here are some newbie questions...

1) What does one mean when the flight strategy is set to lo-lo-lo config. For that matter whats lo-lo-hi config and perhaps any other config with similar 'nameology'?

2) What are constraints of using an aircraft in a maritime role? I'm referring to the Jaguar-IMs. What special structural/aerodynamic changes does it have to undergo before it can used for ASW or anti ship warfare? That also brings me to another question...

3) Why are some missiles (cruise and A2G) designed specially for marine use? On land or over the sea, they have to perform the same role, isnt it?


Dmurphy wrote:Here's more... :-o

The Gripen boasts of being able to take off and land on vehicular roads. Is it only because of its light weight or any other aerodynamic config? What makes the other aircrafts (similar/heavier) incapable of the same?

Please dont get pissed with me guys..I'm still just taking my first steps towards Guruism :lol:
Ofcourse, I try and look for info on these topics before i stick my neck out here.

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 831
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Oct 2008 12:12

What I saw was:

1) A military green 4 engined (turbofan) jet with anhedral wings. It was IL-76 and I can bet my life on that.

2) It had a dome above it with a single black stripe in middle. I guess that was rotating (not sure).


Cheers....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Oct 2008 12:25

any insignias or anything ?

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 831
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Oct 2008 12:47

No sorry. It was flying high. Barely manage to see the rotodome. Anyways AWAACs not common in this area (infact it was the first time). C-130s and Mig-29s are more common site. I guess they use Subang airbase.

Cheers....

Vivek Sreenivasan
BRFite
Posts: 133
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 09:20
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 13 Oct 2008 13:26

I want to know how those poor soldiers survive in the extreme heat of the Thar desert in summer where temperatures are always above 40 degrees celsius. They have to carry all that material such as backpack, rifle(obviously) ammunition i cant imagine it must be hard :shock: .
Do the older tanks such as T-72 have airconditioning. I think it would be unberable if it did not heh?

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10094
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby sum » 13 Oct 2008 16:49

Do the older tanks such as T-72 have airconditioning. I think it would be unberable if it did not heh?

If you had followed the Arjun threads, you would have noticed that after great dithering that the IA has agreed for ACs in the T-90s(our FMBTs for next 30 yeats till T-100 comes along).So, safely forget about the T-72 having even a hand held fan. The reasons against AC till few years back was: soldiers got too comfy with AC and might fall asleep at the wheel. :roll: :roll:

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Oct 2008 17:51

sum wrote:
Do the older tanks such as T-72 have airconditioning. I think it would be unberable if it did not heh?

If you had followed the Arjun threads, you would have noticed that after great dithering that the IA has agreed for ACs in the T-90s(our FMBTs for next 30 yeats till T-100 comes along).So, safely forget about the T-72 having even a hand held fan. The reasons against AC till few years back was: soldiers got too comfy with AC and might fall asleep at the wheel. :roll: :roll:


Huh! On the contrary the cement company that i work for has started inducting some highly sophisticated/costly German loaders at mines which have ACs installed in the operator cabin. The mines are notorious for desert like conditions during summers. The reason being: The operator halts for a tea break every 5 hours instead of 1-1.5 hour in the case of non-AC loaders. The time saved in long term in huge which has resulted in better profitability and capacity at the end of the year!! But never heard of the operator falling asleep. :roll:

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Oct 2008 17:54

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:I want to know how those poor soldiers survive in the extreme heat of the Thar desert in summer where temperatures are always above 40 degrees celsius. They have to carry all that material such as backpack, rifle(obviously) ammunition i cant imagine it must be hard :shock: .
Do the older tanks such as T-72 have airconditioning. I think it would be unberable if it did not heh?


Trivia: Ajai Shukla once mentioned on his blog that during some summer trials of the T-90s or T-72s, the test driver actually fainted due to the heat!

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Oct 2008 18:01

Dmurphy wrote:
sum wrote:
Do the older tanks such as T-72 have airconditioning. I think it would be unberable if it did not heh?

If you had followed the Arjun threads, you would have noticed that after great dithering that the IA has agreed for ACs in the T-90s(our FMBTs for next 30 yeats till T-100 comes along).So, safely forget about the T-72 having even a hand held fan. The reasons against AC till few years back was: soldiers got too comfy with AC and might fall asleep at the wheel. :roll: :roll:


Huh! On the contrary the cement company that i work for has started inducting some highly sophisticated/costly German loaders at mines which have ACs installed in the operator cabin. The mines are notorious for desert like conditions during summers. The reason being: The operator halts for a tea break every 5 hours instead of 1-1.5 hour in the case of non-AC loaders. The time saved in long term in huge which has resulted in better profitability and capacity at the end of the year!! But never heard of the operator falling asleep. :roll:

there's a history behind that comment, ask if you don't know.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Oct 2008 20:04

Which comment Rahulji?
I quite understand whats being discussed here. I've been following the artillery and armour thread regularly. I was just adding my 2 cents to what sum mentioned: About the fear that the drivers fall asleep in presence of an AC.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Oct 2008 21:18

the driver falling asleep at wheels one. if you know then nothing further on this.

Vivek Sreenivasan
BRFite
Posts: 133
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 09:20
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 14 Oct 2008 05:55

All i have to say is 'INSANE', i cant imagine a T-72 crew working for long periods in the stifiling heat of the Punjab and Thar desert area in summer. If its like 40degrees air temperature imagine inside the hold of a steel tank! It must get easily above 50degrees, no woder some people fainted. Glad to hear T-90s have got ACs. As to the notion that operators may fall asleep :rotfl: , that is hilarious. Cooling from 50 degrees to 25 degrees will make them more alert, at 50 degrees they wont be able to concentrate and may get heat stroke!

Hey Rahul i dont know can you tell me about the story?

Another question, what are the best (most decorated) regiments in the Indian army?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby shiv » 14 Oct 2008 06:53

Dmurphy wrote:OK malu bhai, got your point :D

By the way, somebody please come up with some answers to these queries i posted earlier...

Dmurphy wrote:Ok here are some newbie questions...

1) What does one mean when the flight strategy is set to lo-lo-lo config. For that matter whats lo-lo-hi config and perhaps any other config with similar 'nameology'?

2) What are constraints of using an aircraft in a maritime role? I'm referring to the Jaguar-IMs. What special structural/aerodynamic changes does it have to undergo before it can used for ASW or anti ship warfare? That also brings me to another question...

3) Why are some missiles (cruise and A2G) designed specially for marine use? On land or over the sea, they have to perform the same role, isnt it?


Dmurphy wrote:Here's more... :-o

The Gripen boasts of being able to take off and land on vehicular roads. Is it only because of its light weight or any other aerodynamic config? What makes the other aircrafts (similar/heavier) incapable of the same?

Please dont get pissed with me guys..I'm still just taking my first steps towards Guruism :lol:
Ofcourse, I try and look for info on these topics before i stick my neck out here.



Not an expert but will tell you what I think I know.

lo lo lo or lo lo hi etc refer to the flight approaching a target, altitude over target and altitude for getaway/return to base.

A "lo" approach is great to avoid radar detection. There have been stories of IAF aircraft flying so low that the jet exhaust would cause a ripple on standing crops below. But low has the disadvantage of reducing range.

The altitude over target may be dictated by the munitions carried and the targets to be hit.

For the return phase - hi may be better for speed and range, given that the attack itself would have alerted an enemy to the presence of hostile aircraft and the stealth of a lo getaway is unnecessary.

Going back to WW2 the British conducted their bomber raids at lower altitudes for better accuracy, but lost a lot of aircraft. The Americans preferred high altitude bombing. After the war it was imagined by planners in the West that future air wars would be fought at high altitudes with missiles. This was wrong as shown by subsequent wars.

The India Pakistan wars featured action literally at tree top height and I have heard personal accounts from my late cousin (Wg Cdr Suresh) of how low the action was. Both of his accounts are on BR - one is of a Sabre he shot down over Talhar in Pakistan - he recalled that the gun camera footage showed the cockpit being hit - but the Sabre keeled over and hit the ground. Also - in the action at Lonegwala (recounted in BR in Suresh's words) he was so low that he managed to scrape the bottom of his plane on a sand dune after a near miss.

I have put up that story on YouTube for posterity.
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=9fy3XLnWsok

I don't think any structural changes are required for a maritime role, but the avionic must be different, and the ability to fly long ranges (drop tanks, refuelling probes) would be useful. Perhaps cannon is less useful than the ability to carry standoff munitions for the maritime role.

As regards targeting air to ground versus air to sea, I think there are two major differences. The first is that the target on the ground is more difficult to detect with all the clutter on the ground, unlike a target that may stand out on the sea so I think ground targeting is a much bigger deal.

For similar reasons - a "cruise missile" over the sea hardly has obstacles to fly over and can fly steadily at wave top level unlike an overground cruise missile that would hit trees and obstacles unless programmed to fly slightly higher. A very low flying missile would be difficult to detect until it comes very close and may only be vulnerable to last minute measures like filling the air with steel using a Phalanx type defence.

If you make your roads as broad an as strong as runways and have stretches that are long enough - they any aircraft can operate off a road.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Oct 2008 09:10

Thank You Shiv!
To me you ARE an expert!

Such questions kept popping up in my mind since childhood and BRF has finally given me a chance to resolve them! Here's a big THANK YOU to all the Gurus from me and on behalf of all other newbies.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2475
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby manjgu » 14 Oct 2008 10:16

no structural changes for maritime role IMHO but special paints and different maintenance procedures..

during WWII, i think brits favoured night time bombing whereas USAF preferred day time bombing....

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2475
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby manjgu » 14 Oct 2008 10:18

shiv, i am not so sure if targetting at sea is easier.. since targets at sea are always moving targets and not stationary..

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Oct 2008 10:25

shiv wrote:Also - in the action at Lonegwala (recounted in BR in Suresh's words) he was so low that he managed to scrape the bottom of his plane on a sand dune after a near miss.

Yeah i've heard of some accounts about the 1971 war where the people were literally looking down from their buildings to watch the Migs...lol!

Will lap up Wing Cdr Suresh's essay now.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 14 Oct 2008 12:39

@ vivek sreenivasan

in an interview on DD one retired IA officer, a Lt. Gen IIRC forwarded the opinion that AC on tanks was counter-productive and could lead to lazy and sleepy people at the wheels. the comments drew lot of flak on BR and has become a part of BRspeak ever since.


Dmurphy wrote:1) What does one mean when the flight strategy is set to lo-lo-lo config. For that matter whats lo-lo-hi config and perhaps any other config with similar 'nameology'?

to add to what shiv ji has said, aircrafts are usually equipped with relevant avionics and powerplants to suit its envisaged role. for example a low flying attack aircraft like the jaguar (whose first segment of operation would always be 'lo' and probably also the second one, the one over the target) would be equipped with an engine that gives better performance and efficiency at low altitudes(usually at the cost of performance at higher altitudes)
navigation instruments form the other necessity for lo-lo aircraft.
in the olden days it used to be just a good compass and a pilot's skills.
nowadays there are tailor made equipment like terrain following radar and other instruments doing similar jobs.

Dmurphy wrote:2) What are constraints of using an aircraft in a maritime role? I'm referring to the Jaguar-IMs. What special structural/aerodynamic changes does it have to undergo before it can used for ASW or anti ship warfare? That also brings me to another question...

nothing much but special paints and coatings are applied as the sea air is corrosive and may damage the long term life of an a/c, especially if it has to fly close to the surface, like the jag.
however, carrier operation requires strengthened undercarraige and an ability to dump fuel at sea.
Dmurphy wrote:3) Why are some missiles (cruise and A2G) designed specially for marine use? On land or over the sea, they have to perform the same role, isnt it?

not quite. over land the most advanced cruise missiles use TERCOM or terrain contour matching i.e they check with a pre-recorded contour map to the target. obviously they can't do that on the seas ! :P naval cruise missiles therefore use different methods to navigate to the target kill zone and thereafter use their on-board seekers to guide themselves to the targets.

Dmurphy wrote:The Gripen boasts of being able to take off and land on vehicular roads. Is it only because of its light weight or any other aerodynamic config? What makes the other aircrafts (similar/heavier) incapable of the same?

the ability to land and operate from roads is a very unique swedish requirement from the cold war days. the swedes calculated that the chances were slim that their air bases would survive a soviet onslaught and they had to have a dispersed force holding structure if they had to retain any offensive ability.

the MOST important factor behind tyhe gripen's ability to operate from roads is its turn-around time and ability to operate without the support of a full fledged military installation.
of course decent STOL ability is a must but that is not something unique to the gripen.

what is unique is the ability to operate with the support of a handful of support staff operating from a mobile vehicle.
that is what makes the gripen unique in fulfilling this requirement.
manjgu wrote:shiv, i am not so sure if targetting at sea is easier.. since targets at sea are always moving targets and not stationary..

it is easier to operate radars at sea due to the fact that absence of ground clutter at sea requires simpler softwares in look down mode.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Oct 2008 14:32

manjgu wrote:no structural changes for maritime role IMHO but special paints and different maintenance procedures..

during WWII, i think brits favoured night time bombing whereas USAF preferred day time bombing....


RAF started day time raids with light bombers in 41 and 42 which were torn to pieces by the Luftwaffe, which forced them to switch to night raids by mid 42. americans arrived a little later with new technology - i.e. B-17, which carried heavy defensive firepower and flew in tight formations to enhance their success rate. the british were also using an early version of airborne radar to help with night raids, which americans did not initially have. the usaaf took very heavy losses during 43 in their daylight raids because of effective german interception tactics. however what finally made the difference was massive numbers of american daylight escort fighters through '44 with very long range - lightnings, mustangs, thunderbolts which engaged and neutralised the luftwaffe interceptors; soon usaaf had 50:1 numerical advantage in the skies over germany - then on daylight raids were much easier and extremely successfull

eitherway, allied air raids were very indiscriminate - carpet bombing cities

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 14 Oct 2008 19:11

two things had massive impact on allied bombing effort -- the norden bomb sight for the bombers and drop tanks for fighters which allowed them to escort the bombers all the way to the target.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7522
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Prasad » 14 Oct 2008 22:25

I have a rather basic question. Given that planes, be it fighters, transports or even helicopters are produced one by one and not exactly delivered as a bunch in a box, how do air forces go about raising squadrons?

Do they wait for the manufacturer to deliver a minimum set of aircraft and then go about raising them or they do it as and when they get these aircraft? Apologies if its a lame-ass question.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 14 Oct 2008 22:32

depending on the production rate, aircrafts are usually commissioned in small batches of 4-6 to full squadron strength .
for example go back to the original su-30 induction, it was a batch of 8 followed by one of 10.

one by one induction won't make much sense for an unit like a squadron.
a couple of flight crews and a couple of ground crews can probably train on a single a/c. what would the rest do ? fly a different a/c ?
that would be very unsystematic !

Nandan D
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 19 Jul 2001 11:31
Location: Austin, Tx

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Nandan D » 14 Oct 2008 22:43

No sorry. It was flying high. Barely manage to see the rotodome. Anyways AWAACs not common in this area (infact it was the first time). C-130s and Mig-29s are more common site. I guess they use Subang airbase.

Cheers....


Probably an A-50 being evaluated by the Malaysian Air Force.

I remember seeing and Mi-24 Hind over mumbai, at least 3 years before they were inducted.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 15 Oct 2008 12:27

One look at what we're acquiring these days and what we're developing 'indigenously' simultaneously and its quite obvious that there's quite a lot of commonality between them. This gets me thinking as to whether what we order from others is just for the sake of giving our R&D a push. I know its a lame guy question, but doesn't it tend to take away some international credit when we finally come out with our own versions. I'm proud of our scientists, but still....Am i thinking wrong guys?

Here's a small list of projects and deals that have much commonality between them.

LCA-MMRCA (the ToT)
MRTA - C-130J
DRDO's AEW&C - Phalcon AWACS
MCA - PAK-FA
LCH - 22 attack Helos
IAC - Admiral Ghorshkov
NLCA- MiG-29K
Advanced Attack Trainers - AJT Hawks

I'm sure there are many more instances that i've missed from the list. Any comments gurus?

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7522
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Prasad » 15 Oct 2008 12:56

Thats what I thought too. Thanks Rahul!

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17038
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Rahul M » 15 Oct 2008 14:11

dmurphy what are you talking about ? most of the foreign projects you've mentioned don't include ANY ToT and even the selection hasn't been done in many cases.

it is ridiculous to think that items that are yet to land up on Indian shores have any inputs on Indian projects that are already in progress. when there are foreign inputs HAL/DRDO always readily acknowledges them.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 15 Oct 2008 16:13

Point accepted Rahul saab. i guess i WAS wrong afterall and happy to be so :)

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4047
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby kit » 19 Oct 2008 22:51

Warning .. have a pinch of salt with you !

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12935.asp

Breakthrough Propulsion guides to Hyperspace physics - reverse engineering UFO propulsion from outer edge of the Universe


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sagrawal, yensoy and 52 guests