Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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Dmurphy
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 20 Oct 2008 17:56

What is the difference between the terms 'Lazer Illumination', 'Lazer Designation' and 'Target Acquisition'?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 21 Oct 2008 08:04

I was reading this:

At about 6,200 feet, we heard an almighty bang and the entire aircraft filled up with mist. We had lost pressurisation with the main passenger door having blown off.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... -Avro.html

Correct me if I am wrong but commercial passenger liners are pressurized to atmospheric pressure at 8000 feet height for passenger comfort. So in this Avro 748, the inside pressure must be less than the pressure outside at 6, 200 feet. Is this 6,200 meters instead of 6, 200 feet?

Cheers.....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Drevin » 22 Oct 2008 08:30

There was an article on NatGeo recently. A passenger airline lost the roof section of the plane above the business class area. Amazingly the pilot landed the plane with only one casualty .... Real amazing accident when watched on video.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby andy B » 22 Oct 2008 09:25

Dmurphy wrote:What is the difference between the terms 'Lazer Illumination', 'Lazer Designation' and 'Target Acquisition'?


Dmurphy Laser Illumination is used in medicine, night vision illumination, etc. It is also considered very hazardous when associated with planes coming into land. There have been quite a few accidents where a plane's cockpit was illuminated by a laser and caused loss of vision for the pilots, unfortunately I dont know any more on this topic.

Laser Designation is when a laser designates a target for e.g. a spec ops soldier will designate a particular target i.e. the laser will be on some part of the potential target. The incoming LGB/Missile will sniff this laser and guide itself onto the target.

Target Acquisition can be simply defined as when a potential target is positively identified, its exact position is known in time and place. This could be visual or electronic.
Visual: A soldier eye balls the potential target and calls in stating target acquired co-ordinates are...blah blah blah
Electronic: Radar sweep confirms a target and dislpays the co-ordinates on the screen.

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6422713.html

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby enqyoob » 22 Oct 2008 17:42

There was an article on NatGeo recently. A passenger airline lost the roof section of the plane above the business class area. Amazingly the pilot landed the plane with only one casualty .... Real amazing accident when watched on video.
In the real incident, which I doubt was on video, an Aloha (or Hawaiian) airlines plane was the one that suffered this. One passenger lost his/her head, and another an arm, as I understand, along with the roof. A very gruesome incident, but it is true that the aircraft was landed safely, saving everyone else.

As for pressurization, hey, it takes power to pressurize. So if the altitude is below 8000 feet, no power is required, and the pressure is equal to the outside. The pressurization to 8000 feet level is not exactly for "comfort" as in "low pressure = comfortable", but to keep people from dying if the pressure goes any lower than that for extended periods. In general, humans breathe better at sea level than at high altitude.

Many people suffer various ailments if pressure decreases (or increases) over short periods (like in an ordinary airplane flight). Ear aches were common in the older days. Sinus problems are common nowadays. Asthma patients probably don't enjoy low pressures either. People get fatigued from just breathing, even though they are sitting down. Tummy feels bloated.

Pressurization to 5000 feet level would be a lot better, but it takes more power, and causes more stress on the fuselage, so the airline is saving $$ by pressurizing only to 8000 foot level. Maybe soon they will go to 14,000 foot level to save even more, because that is the allowed limit for not using oxygen masks to breathe. Then they can toss out the dead passengers in midflight and save even more fuel. Somewhere in the fine print on your ticket it will say"
Airline nat responsible onlee if passenger conks out due to low pressure

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 23 Oct 2008 07:38

Dmurphy wrote:What is the difference between the terms 'Lazer Illumination', 'Lazer Designation' and 'Target Acquisition'?


It is LASER, not lazer. Laser is an acronym.

My take:

If you have a laser pointing at any target, you are "illuminating" that target.

In theory you can have a laser illuminating a target from one source and someone else picking up the reflected laser from the illuminated target and hitting that target with a PGM (Precision guided munition)

Laser designation is similar - but it designates a target and says - OK hit this guy.

A target must be illuminated by laser for subsequent laser designation. The designated target is acquired by a munition with a suitable sensor that then guides the munition to the designated target that is illuminated by a laser.

In the video linked below a Litening pod from an unseen IAF Mirage has illuminated a mountaintop Pakistani army camp during the Kargil war. The designated target is "acquired" by the Paveway sensor attached to a dumb bomb (not seen) that then glides accurately down to hit the target and shaheedize some Pakis before they can ski downhill.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=c2IVCRWGhtw

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 23 Oct 2008 12:09

As for pressurization, hey, it takes power to pressurize. So if the altitude is below 8000 feet, no power is required, and the pressure is equal to the outside. The pressurization to 8000 feet level is not exactly for "comfort" as in "low pressure = comfortable", but to keep people from dying if the pressure goes any lower than that for extended periods.


That was exactly my question. I asked whether it is a mistake and is it actually 6, 200 meters? Moreover there is no dearth of pressurized air in a jet engine airliner. High bypass jet engines, typical of modern commercial airliners, have abundant bleed air for pressurization and airconditioning. I didn't mean low pressure = comfort, I know that this limit is the minimum practical for humans to feel comfortable.

Pressurization to 5000 feet level would be a lot better, but it takes more power, and causes more stress on the fuselage, so the airline is saving $$ by pressurizing only to 8000 foot level.


I am not sure about power but yes it does cause stress on the fuselage. That's why fuselage design of a 737 (short haul) and a 747 (long haul) is different since the former is supposed to undertake more take-off/landing cycles (and hence more stress) than the latter.

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby andy B » 23 Oct 2008 16:23

LASER - Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 23 Oct 2008 16:33

shiv wrote:In the video linked below a Litening pod from an unseen IAF Mirage has illuminated a mountaintop Pakistani army camp during the Kargil war. The designated target is "acquired" by the Paveway sensor attached to a dumb bomb (not seen) that then glides accurately down to hit the target and shaheedize some Pakis before they can ski downhill.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=c2IVCRWGhtw


Are those dumb bombs JDAMS? I was under the impression that only Pakistan has been offered the same and we didn't have it.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 23 Oct 2008 17:18

India used Paveway kits and not JDAMs. Paveway is LGB kit whereas JDAMs are purpose built bombs which use GPS/Inertial guidance.

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Oct 2008 19:19

neerajbhandari wrote:India used Paveway kits and not JDAMs. Paveway is LGB kit whereas JDAMs are purpose built bombs which use GPS/Inertial guidance.

Cheers....


isnt JDAM also a kit, i.e. steering fins and gps driven steering tail unit that strap onto a 1000lb'er or 2000lb'er dumb bomb?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 23 Oct 2008 20:26

Sorry my bad. Yes you are right, its a kit too for MK 84, MK 83 and MK 82.

Cheers...

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shankar » 25 Oct 2008 16:16

India used Paveway kits and not JDAMs. Paveway is LGB kit whereas JDAMs are purpose built bombs which use GPS/Inertial guidance.


paveway uses refelected laser beam from another air or ground source for making in flight corrections to the flight trajectory and as such has the limitations like other pilot or the same aircraft or specil forces on ground need to stay in position till the bomb impacts and also weather dependent like in a foggy or smokey battle field environment may not get good target guidance because of the attenuation of the reflecetd beam

JDAM frees USAF from all this -the guidance from seperation to impact is from dedicated military GPS sats and as such a true stand along weapon system and also many times more expensive than a laser guided smart bomb . The guidance signal is not weather dependent or assistance from an illuminator like a man on ground or another aircraft or the launch aircraft

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 25 Oct 2008 18:56

Why EXACTLY do we need the ADMIRAL GORSHKOV, sounds like a massive white elephant to me, its going to cost $2b to refit and another $1.5b for the MIGs, $3.5b is a ALOT of money, i dont see the strategic sense in having 2 aircraft carriers, were already building one. Surely 1 aircraft carrier is sufficient for India's interests. Remember that an aircraft carrier has to be deployed as part of a 'battlegroup', well need to deploy a destroyer and a couple of anti sub frigates to protect the AC, plus well need submarine protection. 2 aircraft carriers will stretch the IN ability to provide effective protection.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 25 Oct 2008 19:08

you are close enough to the required operational figure but not the actual one.

to ensure IN has one AC at all times it needs 3 in total. the CBG with its centerpiece and all associated vessels constitute an unique Indian Navy combination for an unique Indian requirement.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 25 Oct 2008 19:13

3? Surely at the most 2?, if one is in refit or upgrade the other can take over in the event of emergency, why do we need 3 CBGs?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 25 Oct 2008 21:42

no, the number is three. stress on the word ensure.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 25 Oct 2008 22:55

Shankar wrote:JDAM frees USAF from all this -the guidance from seperation to impact is from dedicated military GPS sats and as such a true stand along weapon system and also many times more expensive than a laser guided smart bomb . The guidance signal is not weather dependent or assistance from an illuminator like a man on ground or another aircraft or the launch aircraft


GPS receivers are not that expensive. The cost of JDAM and LGB kits is nearly same around 30K USD. Now they have introduced L-JDAM which has a laser seeker at the nose that combines the terminal accuracy of LASER with the fire and forget capability of GPS. The addittion of LASER seeker allows it to engage mobile targets which was not possible earlier.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shankar » 26 Oct 2008 12:20

Why EXACTLY do we need the ADMIRAL GORSHKOV, sounds like a massive white elephant to me, its going to cost $2b to refit and another $1.5b for the MIGs, $3.5b is a ALOT of money, i dont see the strategic sense in having 2 aircraft carriers, were already building one. Surely 1 aircraft carrier is sufficient for India's interests. Remember that an aircraft carrier has to be deployed as part of a 'battlegroup', well need to deploy a destroyer and a couple of anti sub frigates to protect the AC, plus well need submarine protection. 2 aircraft carriers will stretch the IN ability to provide effective protection.


There are several reasons why need the "white elephant carriers " like Goroshkov

1) protect our ships both military and civil type from hostile aerial attack by missile or bombs far from home shores
2) to project air power on distant hostile shores in a limited way
3) to protect our off shore assets like Bombay High -24x7 directly and also indirectly by giving friendly air cover to other coast guard and navy ships doing the patrols
4) to escort our troop ships and tankers in high seas

An air craft carrier has a much larger protective bubble because of the aircraft it carries . For example a Delhi class can protect by its brahmos say a circle of 3.142 x 300 x 300 sq km compared to that Goroshkov with its Mig29k can theoretically protect 3.142 x 1000 x1000 sq km and that too much more effectively an surely

The difference is enormous and justifies the extra cost

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Neshant » 26 Oct 2008 15:20

I'm glad the Fin Ministry finally stepped in and put an end to the EXTORTION racket that is the gorshkov deal.

If the extortion is going on now, you can only imagine what kind of extortion awaits when spare parts are needed or if war breaks out.

Ask for a refund now and cut it loose. Put the money towards acclerating the indegenous carrier program.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shankar » 29 Oct 2008 12:29

I'm glad the Fin Ministry finally stepped in and put an end to the EXTORTION racket that is the gorshkov deal.


surely the cost of refurbishment have gone up way beyond initial estimate but dont think it can be termed as an extortion .Too many factors are involved from currency fluctuation to work quantum to inadequate data available at the time of signing contract

Vick when it joins the Indian navy will be a significant addition to its power projection capability and at the moment nothing like it is available anywhere else in the world -that is the ground reality

Look at the Sukhoi deal too -only real state of the art aircraft we have is the Su 30 and its deal was also mired in quit a lot controversy but once the bird joined the IAF the whole perception changed and not just in India

while developing this carrier to our needs will I think give our navy engineers lot of practical inputs which will make the ADS even more formidable

a billion is a small price to pay for that knowledge input

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby rudradeep » 29 Oct 2008 18:15

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:3? Surely at the most 2?, if one is in refit or upgrade the other can take over in the event of emergency, why do we need 3 CBGs?


The number '3' comes from one each for the Eastern & Western Naval Fleets plus one in refit at any given time.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2008 22:07

skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:


That is not called somersault. It is called a 180 deg roll.

Most civilian aircraft are not designed to do this deliberately mainly because passengers cannot be treated like cornflakes to be poured out of a container.

Even if passengers were willing to be cornflakes, there is the little matter of having to blow the roof off. One could design a plane with no roof, but at 600 kmph it would be a bit breezy. A system of explosive bolts to blow the roof off and dump passengers could be conceived, but that would present the problem of the passengers rolling over each other as the plane flips 180 degrees. Unrelated women would be touching strange men and this would be a no no for Gulf airlines ruling out a huge chunk of market

Far simpler would be to have trapdoors below every seat that could be opened at the flick of a switch to dump passengers in the direction that Isaac Newton wanted them to go. Business class seats could have parachutes and cattle class a prayer book

Being mostly unimaginative, aircraft designers for civilian aircraft are mostly working on almost foolproof safety so that none of the above would be required - so a lot of innovation and original thought from people such as yourself are going down the drain. :((


Designers are even more stupid with military aircraft. Instead of simply turning the plane over and dumping the pilot - they blow off the canopy with explosives (dangerous! Bombs in the cockpit!). At least then they could dump the pilot no? But the wont. They then blow the seat out, upwards using a rocket charge going against the laws of nature. :evil:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 29 Oct 2008 22:11

:lol:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Nitesh » 29 Oct 2008 22:44

pardon my ignorance, but is the rockets carrying our satellites and the chandrayaan are completely indigenous? I mean are we self sufficient in cryogenics? Or we are still using Russian engines here?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2008 00:29

your best post ever Shivji ! :rotfl:
:rotfl:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 30 Oct 2008 00:57

Nitesh wrote:pardon my ignorance, but is the rockets carrying our satellites and the chandrayaan are completely indigenous? I mean are we self sufficient in cryogenics? Or we are still using Russian engines here?

you may like the space page arun has painstakingly created for the benefit of us jingoes.
would answer many of your questions.

btw, chandrayan rocket which is a modified PSLV doesn't have any cryo stage, nor does the plain vanilla PSLV. IIRC russia supplied seven cyro stages w/o any ToT that are used in gslv mk1. gslv mk2 will use desi cyro. tentative launch date is sometime later this year.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby RamaY » 30 Oct 2008 01:47

:rotfl:
crystal clear explanation shiv-ji...

you must show this side of you once in a while in other threads tooo... that makes the discussion more interesting.. :)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby samuel » 30 Oct 2008 03:49

It is not common, generally speaking to get into a spin. Sometimes, it happens. Just within hours of my checkride many years ago for a PPL (ASEL), I decided to go back up in my tomahawk and practice stalls.

You don't do power on stalls on a tomahawk for a reason.

Whilst bringing the nose up smoothly as I pushed the throttle forward, I jammed the right rudder in a tad bit too much. That's where the term, stepping on the ball comes from, but this was a thump.

I was already slipping when she stalled. Before I knew it, I was hearing a scream, the sun was spinning around me, and I was screaming, WAAAH, WAAH WAAH.

I was alone. About that time I realized the plane was pitching a bit over the vertical and starting to flatten out and this is the dreaded flat spin that woke me up. I was three turns in already and I had started at a mere 4500ft when this happened. 3000 ft to go to meet the maker, approximately.

Instead of worrying about getting out of the spin I wondered, why I could not just fall out by opening the damn hatch and if I had a parachute, that would've been that. 2000ft left to the maker.

Sun going left, I am going right, so right no left rudder. Full opposite rudder! mofo! Nose down, nose down. Stop rotation, OK, rudder neutral, power back, power back, pull! Don't stall, easy, easy, easy. Back on the power goddamn it. 2200rpm, straight and level, barely 500 feet from the maker and violating airspace rules presently and white knuckled.

Still wondering about the canopy, why not!

Then it occured to me.

There would not have been much time.

The seat belts usually get stuck in these things and it is a pain to get em off, even on the ground.

Not a good idea, me thinks, but shiv said it infinitely better.

S

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2008 04:03

A colonial weapon unique to India.

Howdah Pistol

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby RayC » 30 Oct 2008 10:27

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:3? Surely at the most 2?, if one is in refit or upgrade the other can take over in the event of emergency, why do we need 3 CBGs?


The strategic importance of the Bay of Bengal in addition to the Arabian Sea, is growing by the day.

The Straits of Malacca is an important strategic chokepoint.

To offset this disadvantage, China has embarked on its strategy of 'string of pearls'.

Therefore, naval strength is essential on either flank of the Indian peninsula.

The third aircraft carrier is to keep both the fleets operational all the time, even when one is in the dry dock for refit.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shankar » 30 Oct 2008 11:22

pardon my ignorance, but is the rockets carrying our satellites and the chandrayaan are completely indigenous? I mean are we self sufficient in cryogenics? Or we are still using Russian engines here?


There is no such thing as complete self sufficiency in space - quite a few of the components are procured from abroad and assembled here to allow a particular mission profile be it remote sensing ,communication or chandrayan

Having said that PSLV has the maximum indegenious component till date almost all basic systems are made in India -GSLV MK3 wil be even better

Regarding cryogenics as used in GSLV program only (PSLV ) does not use a cryo stage everything is being done from scratch or rather fundamentals here in India -the rocket engines ,the vacuum jacketed multilayer insulated piping system fro liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping ,the liquid oxygento liquid nitrogen sub cooling heat exchanger ,the liquid nitrogen vaporizer for payload bay purging before launch ,the associated control system and development of operating logic ,the turbo pumps ,the combustion chamber etc etc -in short GSLV mk3 will be the most indegeniuos of all rockets till date and also most powerful

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby dhruvarka » 31 Oct 2008 00:05

Neshant wrote:I'm glad the Fin Ministry finally stepped in and put an end to the EXTORTION racket that is the gorshkov deal.

If the extortion is going on now, you can only imagine what kind of extortion awaits when spare parts are needed or if war breaks out.

Ask for a refund now and cut it loose. Put the money towards acclerating the indegenous carrier program.


As of 1997, US Navy paid $4.06 billion per carrier with a mid life updation cost of $ 2.38 billion according to Federaration of American Scientists. If Gorshkov comes to us at a cost of $3.5 billion and good for another 10 years, I would considerer it a good value for the money. Probably, many of us are still living in the days where we could get a squadron of MiGs from USSR for a shipload of tea Leaves and and spare parts free for verbally bashing the US of A in UN unable to reconcile to the fact that the world has changed a lot since Auyld Lang Syne.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby ticky » 04 Nov 2008 01:25

Can somebody help me out here please? what kind of support/logistic equipments are required to operate the different types UAV that the armed forces have it its inventory? just need to check against something i saw at imphal airport

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby ChandraS » 04 Nov 2008 01:54

shiv wrote:
skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:

....
Unrelated women would be touching strange men and this would be a no no for Gulf airlines ruling out a huge chunk of market

Far simpler would be to have trapdoors below every seat that could be opened at the flick of a switch to dump passengers in the direction that Isaac Newton wanted them to go. Business class seats could have parachutes and cattle class a prayer book
...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Too much..nah..three much, Shiv. Hope we see more of these, now that you are free!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 04 Nov 2008 14:25

Read the report suggesting Chabua as the next Sukhoi base. My question is, now that we have already decided to place a squadron of sukhois at tezpur, why are they placing one more just 250 kms away at chabua?

Isn't it a logistical headache? Won't it be simpler to place 2 squadrons at Tezpur itself like we've done at Lohegaon. Excuse my lack of knowledge please.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 04 Nov 2008 15:18

I have seen some movies where the pilot of an aircraft knows when an enemy aircraft locks on to his aircraft. Hows that possible?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Nov 2008 15:33

Dmurphy wrote:I have seen some movies where the pilot of an aircraft knows when an enemy aircraft locks on to his aircraft. Hows that possible?


the attackers aircraft radar switches modes from sweep/scan to focused pulses during lock and the radar signal received by the target aircraft changes. you can detect this change and know if you've been locked on to

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby sum » 04 Nov 2008 16:52

Lalmohan wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:I have seen some movies where the pilot of an aircraft knows when an enemy aircraft locks on to his aircraft. Hows that possible?


the attackers aircraft radar switches modes from sweep/scan to focused pulses during lock and the radar signal received by the target aircraft changes. you can detect this change and know if you've been locked on to

What exactly does a RWR do then? I thought RWR warns against radar lock?
(Just a n00b to all this)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 04 Nov 2008 17:28

Lalmohan wrote:the attackers aircraft radar switches modes from sweep/scan to focused pulses during lock and the radar signal received by the target aircraft changes. you can detect this change and know if you've been locked on to

OK. But what if that aircraft is locking on to some other aircraft in the vicinity? Then would all the aircrafts in the vicinity receive warning signals?


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