Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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krishna_krishna
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 09 Jun 2010 06:49

I found this idea very amazing of having balloon blip as an awacs , Consider following scenarios :

- group of marcos ( 2-3 seperate teams)are dropped with their flatable boats from seaking few distance away from battle group and constantly changing their position, and when in attack wrap up the ballon and run away and the next team waiting somewhere fills up the air and start transmitting thereby confusing predators on the location cause every time they would be swapping their turns there by creating an false sense of probable locations confusing as that battle group is in that false loop( triangle or rectangle or circle in whichever manner the teams are deployed) . Meanwhile the battle group is watching show from side and blasting those away before they knew what hit them.

- Second scenarios will be one or more than one of the battle group destroyers or frigates doing this away from carrier there by giving the flexibility as well as some protection when it is under attack.

any gyan from gurus.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gyle_S » 09 Jun 2010 07:32

shiv wrote:
sgyl wrote:Shiv Saar,
AN32:IAF :: Vikrant(AC):IN (This ratio proportion equation does not work out)


I believe you are missing the point, and with respect may I point out that you have applied madrassa math. I will explain. By madrassa math I mean "I have have 6 sons. It is OK if two of them die. If I had only one son, I want him alive"

Apply the same logic to Air Force and you are saying "The ratios of An 32s to other aircraft is higher so the Air Force can afford/will not mind the loss of An 32s but because the ratio is different the navy cannot afford to lose the Vikrant". In other words if the Navy had 5 aircraft carriers they might say "Hey OK we will let one be sunk cheaply"

This has nothing to do with ratios. You do not go about putting your assets at increased risk just because you have more assets or different proportions. Soon you will not have that many, that's all. Your enemy will adjust your ratios/proportions and open your eyes even as he chews off your backside.


Shiv Saar,
With due respect, I understood your point but did not like the analogy that you gave. By the way, I did not apply the Madarssa arithmetic here. I meant usage/functionality. Even if IAF loses all AN-32 we have other aircrafts that may substitute as bombers (you defined AN-32 usage as a bomber). If we lose the sole AC we lose the force projection capability in true blue waters (far off from land).

Sure you take more risks as numbers increase. For one, an asset's relative value decreases as its number increases. 1 AWAC with IAF will probably be used very defensively. Maybe they keep it 1000kms inland and not even airborne it unless 100% sure of survivability. Once we have 10+ AWACs they will be deployed in increasingly risky scenarios.

Anyways, this debate is off-topic from my question. I will pick my reading glasses now rather than using my typing fingers. Thanks for all the Gyan.
Last edited by archan on 09 Jun 2010 18:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 09 Jun 2010 07:43

^^
Well saar that is the problem with arguing against an analogy rather than the point being made. The point really was that the amount of risk one can take with an asset is purely dependent on the cost benefit ratio as calculated by the people on the spot at the time based on the information they have at that time. It was never an argument to say that the An 32 should be used as a bomber. The An 32 too can be used as a bomber if that is deemed appropriate in the situation.

I do not think any sensible armed force invests in spares (like having 6 spare cellphones) so that they can take extra risks and possibly fritter away one or two of those assets cheaply. I continue to disagree with you on that contention.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Raman » 09 Jun 2010 07:46

krishna_krishna,

With all due respect, there seems to have been a spate of newbies proposing new and fantastic techniques and technologies that seem to have eluded the best defense research institutions with billion-dollar budgets, such as switching off engines to elude IR missiles and using thrust vectoring nozzles to point the engine flame away from a missile's seeker.

One can only surmise that there is probably some reason why defense planners don't consider a pack of guys whizzing around in inflatable boats raising and lowering balloons to be a sound doctrine for a carrier battle group's AEW&C tasking.

More seriously, I fully encourage curiosity and the natural process of learning, but rather than just raising an idea for the heck of it, please try to follow up by doing some research. Rather than half-hearted curiosity and then asking for spoon-feeding, take your curiosity to the extreme. Try to read up about how AEW&C is performed in a real battle group. How is fleet air-defense performed? How far and fast does the battle group move? How does the AEW&C keep up? What are the platform endurance requirements? How much electrical power is required to operate the radar? How heavy is the radar? How are the radar's signals processed and distributed? Even if you want to use your motorboat buddies just as decoys, what is the power requirement? Lurk in forums where people in the know post. Google and read documents. Visit your library. The answers will become more apparent.

I do not want to come off as some super smart guru, because I'm just about as ignorant as any other dude. I have lurked on BR since 1998, and still post extremely rarely because I don't feel qualified to comment on most of the discussions. However, I have picked up some knowledge by lurking around and reading articles whenever I'm curious about something, and (I would like to believe) have made the odd contribution.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby wig » 09 Jun 2010 08:48

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City ... 026040.cms
On June 9, 1999, NK Kalia had received the body of his son – Captain Saurabh Kalia – with evidence of torture by the Pakistan Army. Eleven years later, 62-year-old Kalia is still fighting for justice – he wants the act to be declared a war crime by the UN.

However, numerous letters to the Centre have failed to move the government to pursue the matter with the world body. Five other soldiers were tortured and killed along with Capt Kalia


gurulog: what are the technical aspects that prevent the Govt of India from pursuing the matter with the UN. Why is the govt. lax in such issues?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Carl_T » 09 Jun 2010 08:56

I am curious about that, weren't there like 4-5 other soldiers who were tortured and killed with him that time? Why do we not hear about them in the media and elsewhere? I am asking.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Raye » 09 Jun 2010 11:24

DELETED

Fantastic article.

Didn't see this article or reference to this website, admin plz delete in case of repost.
Last edited by Jagan on 09 Jun 2010 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: DELETED

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 09 Jun 2010 13:22

I am trying to ID an aircraft which was seen in a picture hanging on a wall in Modern Marvels :?: aired on History channel. It's a Su-7 type aircraft with cone intake at the nose but it was flying with two overwing drop tanks. The show goes through the history of fighter planes evolution from straight wing to swept wing and usage of composites in fuselage. Eurofighter Typhoon is shown prominently in the show as an example of modern fighter.

Apologies in advance if the decription is too vague.

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jun 2010 13:32


neerajb
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 09 Jun 2010 16:41

Thanks Rahul. I should have guessed it by the british flavour of that program but was so engrossed by the looks that I kept searching for some Su derivative.

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby K_Rohit » 09 Jun 2010 16:46

^^^^^^^^^
Stupid question. Did overwing "drop" tanks mean that the aircraft had to be inverted to drop them?

Obviously not, so what was the mechanism? What other issues does overwing deployment of ordanance face?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 09 Jun 2010 17:06

Raye wrote:
Fantastic article.

Didn't see this article or reference to this website, admin plz delete in case of repost.


You're a sneaky little prat aren't you Raye? You have yourself posted the same idiotic article in the missiles thread and here you are pretending to be innocent and asking admins to delete "in case of repost". And this same article was linked several times by another chap. You guys are in a tag team.

I think we have a bunch of guys who are parasiting off BRFs huge hit count to spread some stuff they want to spread.
Last edited by shiv on 09 Jun 2010 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 09 Jun 2010 17:08

K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Stupid question. Did overwing "drop" tanks mean that the aircraft had to be inverted to drop them?

Obviously not, so what was the mechanism? What other issues does overwing deployment of ordanance face?



Actually - I think that's a good question.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby KrishG » 09 Jun 2010 17:30

K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Stupid question. Did overwing "drop" tanks mean that the aircraft had to be inverted to drop them?

Obviously not, so what was the mechanism? What other issues does overwing deployment of ordanance face?


In case of Lightning the over wing drop tanks were never actually "dropped". It was just used during long ferry flights and the fuel tanks themselves weren't jettisoned. But there was an overwing fuel dump system.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 09 Jun 2010 18:10

OK gurus, here's a question: Which commando unit wears camouflage T-shirts on regular sentry duty? I'm asking because i spotted a couple of "commandos" outside an upcoming base and they were wearing Army camo T-shirts and carrying jet black MP5s. Couldn't ID which unit they belong to.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 09 Jun 2010 18:19

The only SF unit I have seen wearing t-shirts is Garud. Garud personnel were wearing t-shirts both at AI-2009 and vayu shakti.
Image
But I have never seen any pic of any Garud commando equipped with mp5. They always seem to be equipped with either Insas or AK.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Marut » 09 Jun 2010 18:25

K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Stupid question. Did overwing "drop" tanks mean that the aircraft had to be inverted to drop them?

Obviously not, so what was the mechanism? What other issues does overwing deployment of ordanance face?


I am not entirely sure of this either but here's my take what might happen:

For the over wing drop tanks, it may be as simple as releasing the locking bolts and letting the drop tanks float away. They usually big enough to generate some lift to carry them away when the aircraft is flying. Downside is that this 'flying' tank can hit the aircraft itself. So there has to be a better way of doing it, if it was ever qualified on an aircraft. The EE Lightnings had 'jettisonable' over wing fuel tanks but but doubt if they were ever tested for actual separation.

With regards to the over wing ordinance release, they will have to missiles only. Dummy bombs can't be used due to same reason as drop tank. Unlike the under wing release where the missile drops for a second or two to get clear from the aircraft before the motor ignites, the over wing release will need the motor to ignite prior to releasing the locking bolts. See this pic of IAF Jag firing the Matra Magic II. This requires some precise coordination of the firing mechanism and needs to be qualified for each missile. There will also be some restriction on flight envelope for such missile launches. Due to this unique condition, the over wing surface will also need be adequately protected for the missile motor exhaust.

JM2P.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Marut » 09 Jun 2010 18:29

Dmurphy wrote:OK gurus, here's a question: Which commando unit wears camouflage T-shirts on regular sentry duty? I'm asking because i spotted a couple of "commandos" outside an upcoming base and they were wearing Army camo T-shirts and carrying jet black MP5s. Couldn't ID which unit they belong to.


NSG hub on the jvlr :)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby K_Rohit » 09 Jun 2010 19:00

Marut wrote:I am not entirely sure of this either but here's my take what might happen:

For the over wing drop tanks, it may be as simple as releasing the locking bolts and letting the drop tanks float away. They usually big enough to generate some lift to carry them away when the aircraft is flying. Downside is that this 'flying' tank can hit the aircraft itself. So there has to be a better way of doing it, if it was ever qualified on an aircraft. The EE Lightnings had 'jettisonable' over wing fuel tanks but but doubt if they were ever tested for actual separation.

With regards to the over wing ordinance release, they will have to missiles only. Dummy bombs can't be used due to same reason as drop tank. Unlike the under wing release where the missile drops for a second or two to get clear from the aircraft before the motor ignites, the over wing release will need the motor to ignite prior to releasing the locking bolts. See this pic of IAF Jag firing the Matra Magic II. This requires some precise coordination of the firing mechanism and needs to be qualified for each missile. There will also be some restriction on flight envelope for such missile launches. Due to this unique condition, the over wing surface will also need be adequately protected for the missile motor exhaust.

JM2P.


Hmmm... I think the explanation that they were used only for ferry makes sense....

On overwing weapons, conceptually, even rocket pods can be overwing? So can, ESM Pods or say a podded radar?

I mean a Jag can potentially use its overwing pylon for carrying an ESM pod?

Does overwing have drag/performance/RCS issues which outweigh any potential benefits?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 09 Jun 2010 19:26

Marut wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:OK gurus, here's a question: Which commando unit wears camouflage T-shirts on regular sentry duty? I'm asking because i spotted a couple of "commandos" outside an upcoming base and they were wearing Army camo T-shirts and carrying jet black MP5s. Couldn't ID which unit they belong to.


NSG hub on the jvlr :)

NSG wearing t-shirts? This is surprising. Even regular army personnel wear t-shirts during PT but I have never seen anyone other than Garuds wearing t-shirts on duty.
Dmurphy, could you do us a favour and take a photograph of the NSG personnel next time you go there? Of course, ask them first if it is ok or not.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 09 Jun 2010 20:59

Marut wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:OK gurus, here's a question: Which commando unit wears camouflage T-shirts on regular sentry duty? I'm asking because i spotted a couple of "commandos" outside an upcoming base and they were wearing Army camo T-shirts and carrying jet black MP5s. Couldn't ID which unit they belong to.


NSG hub on the jvlr :)

That was my guess too. But aren't they supposed to wear black dungarees only? Any chance of them being Force One?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 09 Jun 2010 21:09

Taliban bullet ricochets inside RAF pilot's helmet
The Chinook landed and picked up seven injured Afghan and American soldiers but came under heavy and sustained fire during which Flight Lieutenant Fortune was hit in the head as a round smashed through the windscreen :shock: hitting his helmet and causing facial injuries.
Aren't chopper windscreens bullet proof?
Image

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Marut » 09 Jun 2010 22:01

^ Chopper windscreens aren't usually armored/bulletproof. Adds to weight. The interesting part in this episode is that the pilot was lucky enough for the bullet to pass through the NVG into the helmet and not hit him as such! One lucky son of a gun, I tell you.

Btw, F1 is based in srpf, goregoan and a couple of other locations for smaller rapid response teams. The SAG being army only, they may allow army camo tee-shirts. But MP-5 is the giveaway! F1 doesn't use them.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 09 Jun 2010 22:13

SELF DELETED.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 09 Jun 2010 22:16

Marut wrote:Btw, F1 is based in srpf, goregoan and a couple of other locations for smaller rapid response teams. The SAG being army only, they may allow army camo tee-shirts. But MP-5 is the giveaway! F1 doesn't use them.

Sorry, but what is F1? :-? If you mean Force1 then there are hardly any pics where they are "not" equipped with mp5.

http://beta.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00014/IN25_FORCE_ONE_14160f.jpg
http://stbjp.msn.com/i/11/C3EF43B2EB10663BA41731FF303945.jpg

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby chetak » 09 Jun 2010 22:36

Dmurphy wrote:Taliban bullet ricochets inside RAF pilot's helmet
The Chinook landed and picked up seven injured Afghan and American soldiers but came under heavy and sustained fire during which Flight Lieutenant Fortune was hit in the head as a round smashed through the windscreen :shock: hitting his helmet and causing facial injuries.
Aren't chopper windscreens bullet proof?


Higher calliber shell than bullet proof glass designed for ??

Point blank range??

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 10 Jun 2010 00:16

Newbie Question:

How much use is the expeditionary force being proposed by the Army and Navy going to be for India at this point of time when all our wars (if any) in the near future shall be fought defending our own teritory?

Admiral Arun Prakash mentions the need to protect 1,200 island teritories + humanitarian relief + protection of assets as the major reasons. Aren't these already covered by the special forces? For eg. I read somewhere that the Marcos are often deployed to protect offshore assets like oil-rigs. I am sure the Garuds are protecting the Farkhor air-base in Tajikistan. What other overseas assets do we have that need protection? And for hostage situations and the like, aren't these handled by the special forces? I fal to understand the need for mechanized and armoured elements in the expiditionary force given our country's requirements. I was wondering if the Army / Navy could utilize these funds more efficiently... Probably to create more Special forces batallions or buy better equipment.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 10 Jun 2010 09:03

If MKI (or any two seater) shoots down a bogey, who gets the credit for the kill, The pilot or the WSO?

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 10 Jun 2010 09:41

KrishG wrote:
K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Stupid question. Did overwing "drop" tanks mean that the aircraft had to be inverted to drop them?

Obviously not, so what was the mechanism? What other issues does overwing deployment of ordanance face?


In case of Lightning the over wing drop tanks were never actually "dropped". It was just used during long ferry flights and the fuel tanks themselves weren't jettisoned. But there was an overwing fuel dump system.


Wiki says that those tanks were "jettisonable in an emergency".

The interesting thing to me is that I first saw a photo of a Lightning in 1962 in that year's copy of "The Observer's Book of Aircraft"(I still have it). But for 48 years that question never occurred to me 8)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jun 2010 10:06

neerajb wrote:If MKI (or any two seater) shoots down a bogey, who gets the credit for the kill, The pilot or the WSO?

Cheers....
Yeah, we better this cleared out right now before we have a brawl in the locker room :mrgreen:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jun 2010 10:19

Mayuresh wrote:What other overseas assets do we have that need protection?
If I may adventure a guess, we're planning to have a radar station in Male and thereabouts. There will be more such "arrangements" which may not be revealed to the public for security/operational reasons.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 10 Jun 2010 11:38

Dmurphy wrote:
neerajb wrote:If MKI (or any two seater) shoots down a bogey, who gets the credit for the kill, The pilot or the WSO?

Cheers....
Yeah, we better this cleared out right now before we have a brawl in the locker room :mrgreen:


Whoever locks on to the target with his Helmet-mounted sight :mrgreen: :rotfl: :mrgreen: :rotfl: :mrgreen:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jun 2010 11:49

Mayuresh wrote:Whoever locks on to the target with his Helmet-mounted
Hold on a minute! Both have HMS?? Even the WSO sitting at the back?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby khukri » 10 Jun 2010 11:55

krishna_krishna wrote: any gyan from gurus.


I'm not a guru - as for the gyan - don't give up the day job........yet....!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 10 Jun 2010 12:58

Dmurphy wrote:Hold on a minute! Both have HMS?? Even the WSO sitting at the back?


Could not find any reference on the internet which either confirms or denies the WSO having HMS. I assumed he would have it because:
1. He too has full controls of the A/c in case the pilot is not able to control the a/c for whatever reasons
2. Since he is the Weapon System Officer, he would have all the tech. needed for firing weapons!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jun 2010 13:14

Mayuresh wrote:Since he is the Weapon System Officer, he would have all the tech. needed for firing weapons!
But does he have the visibility to use the HMS well enough, thats my pooch?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 10 Jun 2010 14:19

the A2A part of an aircraft is usually the sole responsibility of the pilot, not counting ECM and ECCM etc. HMS will be slaved to the pilots helmet.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby neerajb » 10 Jun 2010 14:34

Hmmm so that means a WSO will never get to become an Ace. Poor chap.

Cheers....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 10 Jun 2010 15:28

neerajb wrote:Hmmm so that means a WSO will never get to become an Ace. Poor chap.

Cheers....
WSO wannabe's, remember, you still get to touch and fly in Sukhois while the rest of us mortals only get to dream and talk endlessly about it :)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 10 Jun 2010 15:52

Dmurphy wrote:
neerajb wrote:Hmmm so that means a WSO will never get to become an Ace. Poor chap.

Cheers....
WSO wannabe's, remember, you still get to touch and fly in Sukhois while the rest of us mortals only get to dream and talk endlessly about it :)

One more thing, the WSO is usually the senior officer in the pair, so he would have had his time as a Pilot. However, since the MKIs are yet to see any action, the MKI pilots who have graduated to become WSOs won't get to be aces anymore :(


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