Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 08 Jul 2010 20:25

OMG! after 7000+ posts I expected a better attitude than snobbery! :rotfl:
Honest! Here goes.........

Next Generation Jammer
The USMC is considering replacing their EA-6B Prowler Electronic Attack aircraft with F-35s that have stealthy jammer pods attached.[101]

On 30 September 2008, the United States Navy outlined the basic requirements of the NGJ and stated that the design must be modular and open.[102] Kent, John R. et al. The Navy has selected four companies to submit designs for the Next Generation Jammer.[103]

The NGJ will also have cyber attack capabilities where the AESA radar is used to insert attack codes into remote systems.[104]

The ITT-Boeing design for the NGJ includes six AESA arrays for all around coverage.[105]!

So may be you should know that sophisticated weaponry runs on software and hence can be vulnerable to Bot/virus attacks!! :rotfl:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shameek » 08 Jul 2010 20:26

Rahul M wrote:
JSF will have a few unique features : ..... Capability of Cyber Warfare(Can launch a virus/bot attack)
on what ?
:eek: 8) :rotfl:


Duh! On the kafir BRF server of course. :twisted:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2010 21:18

kanan, I'm too old and hard-shelled to care for all those barbs. I read the original report and most likely the reporter got confused on what was reported to him. it is damn difficult to corrupt a simple PC with near zillions of loopholes unless the user goofs up/co-operates. to corrupt a relatively isolated system with a limited number of nodes of data transfer over encrypted channels with a very restricted number of allowed file types as well, not to mention the myriad varieties of the systems, it is quite difficult to see how this is supposed to be achieved. spoofing is one thing, this quite another. unless we see a plausible explanation about how they intend to go about this thing I will put it down to unobtanium and journalistic ignorance.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2010 21:47

http://rapidshare.com/files/377207669/c ... impler.pdf

Stealthy aircraft are maintenance heavy. If India buys the F 35 who will maintain the skin when it peels. Who will take care of dents that reduce stealth? Will Obama send a man to live on an Indian navy ship to do that?

Once the F 35 becomes unstealthy - its two bomb carrying capacity will make it only a little better than an Su 7 with avionics. Indian fanboys living in America are the usual source of salesmanship for American ripoffs.

The Indian navy has sent an "RFI" request for information about the F 35. Expressing an interest does not mean marriage otherwise all those kids Angelina Joile has would be mine. But as an Angelina Jolie fanboy i will always root for her.

Oh by the way - the vertical landing F 35 C has an even lower payload even as it heats the deck of a ship to 1000 plus deg C as it lands (or some such ridiculous figure)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 08 Jul 2010 21:58

Rahul M wrote:kanan, I'm too old and hard-shelled to care for all those barbs. I read the original report and most likely the reporter got confused on what was reported to him. it is damn difficult to corrupt a simple PC with near zillions of loopholes unless the user goofs up/co-operates. to corrupt a relatively isolated system with a limited number of nodes of data transfer over encrypted channels with a very restricted number of allowed file types as well, not to mention the myriad varieties of the systems, it is quite difficult to see how this is supposed to be achieved. spoofing is one thing, this quite another. unless we see a plausible explanation about how they intend to go about this thing I will put it down to unobtanium and journalistic ignorance.

Even if by some godly miracle such a thing was achieved, is there any possibility that it would be encorporated in export variants of JSF?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2010 21:59

Kanan wrote:
So may be you should know that sophisticated weaponry runs on software and hence can be vulnerable to Bot/virus attacks!! :rotfl:


Naah. They all have antivirus installed. :P

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2010 22:03

Newbie question. My uncle who works in the radar section of BEL asked me if I have heard of an operating system called Linux which has built in resistance to virus attacks. I once knew a telephone system operator called Linda, but not Linux. And she used to get colds regularly - so she was not resistant to viruses.

Any idea about this?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Vinu » 08 Jul 2010 22:25

Thank you to all re your comments on JSF.

shiv wrote:Newbie question. My uncle who works in the radar section of BEL asked me if I have heard of an operating system called Linux which has built in resistance to virus attacks.
Any idea about this?


Indeed my very first question in BRF is about Linux. :eek:

I came across the below by googling..

"In Linux, Newly deposited files from your email client or Web browser are not given execute privileges. Cleverly renaming executable files as something else doesn't matter, because Linux and its applications don't depend on file extensions to identify the properties of a file, so they won't mistakenly execute malware as they interact with it. "

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Carl_T » 08 Jul 2010 22:31

shiv wrote:Expressing an interest does not mean marriage otherwise all those kids Angelina Joile has would be mine. But as an Angelina Jolie fanboy i will always root for her.


:rotfl:

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 08 Jul 2010 22:32

Shiv,
Linux has a kernel which is hard to crack but remember that nothing is invincible! Plz read this:http://www.ask.com/wiki/Linux_malware!

shiv wrote:http://rapidshare.com/files/377207669/caseforsimpler.pdf

Stealthy aircraft are maintenance heavy. If India buys the F 35 who will maintain the skin when it peels. Who will take care of dents that reduce stealth? Will Obama send a man to live on an Indian navy ship to do that?

Once the F 35 becomes unstealthy - its two bomb carrying capacity will make it only a little better than an Su 7 with avionics. Indian fanboys living in America are the usual source of salesmanship for American ripoffs.

The Indian navy has sent an "RFI" request for information about the F 35. Expressing an interest does not mean marriage otherwise all those kids Angelina Joile has would be mine. But as an Angelina Jolie fanboy i will always root for her.

Oh by the way - the vertical landing F 35 C has an even lower payload even as it heats the deck of a ship to 1000 plus deg C as it lands (or some such ridiculous figure)


I will have to admit that stealth aircraft are HEAVY Maintanence! But the tech can not be ignored, right? I like PAKFA for IAF and F-35 for IN! Its my opinion, yours could differ! but Jolie & you, man, keep me out of it! :mrgreen:

Hi Gaur, India would need to negotiate for the NGJ. but your concern is well founded!

Rahul M wrote:
kanan, I'm too old and hard-shelled to care for all those barbs. I read the original report and most likely the reporter got confused on what was reported to him. it is damn difficult to corrupt a simple PC with near zillions of loopholes unless the user goofs up/co-operates. to corrupt a relatively isolated system with a limited number of nodes of data transfer over encrypted channels with a very restricted number of allowed file types as well, not to mention the myriad varieties of the systems, it is quite difficult to see how this is supposed to be achieved. spoofing is one thing, this quite another. unless we see a plausible explanation about how they intend to go about this thing I will put it down to unobtanium and journalistic ignorance


In war, nodes would be active most of the time and hence more vulnerable to a cyber attack! I would love to see such capability on the Flankerz!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 08 Jul 2010 22:54

Kanan,
No disrespect, but it seems evident that your knowledge of all things related to IT is non existant. This was evident even in MRCA thread when you argued that missile specific jammers/ electronic attack systems are possible without knowledge of missile systems and software code.
Let me explain in most layman terms possible how malware and hacking works (lets say on windows PC). The windows is a huge software with tens of millions of lines of code. This is because it is a multipurpose OS which is required to perform numerous functions. Obviously, each code cannot be verified multiple times with 100% certrainity. This leaves with loopholes or backdoors which is taken advantage by hackers. And it becomes possible for hackers to hack only because they have the target OS with them with unlimited leisure time to study its code. Plus, the target PC is connected to internet which gives direct network connection and access to the hacker. Even with all these advantages enjoyed by hackers, it becomes near impossible to gain access to a PC or network with a good commercial security software. Now consider, if you will, an aircraft. The OS of various systems of an a/c have limited functions and their codes are "tiny" as compared to multipurpose OS like Windows/MAC OS. Also, the software code is written in a "much" rigid programming language than PC softwares. Eg: Ada is a programming language used to write avionic software. It is so rigid that it leaves virtually little room for flexibility unlike other languages like, say Visual Basic. It is a pain in the ass to program in Ada. Even with most negligible deviation, the code refuses to compile. Such languages are used mainly so that there is no possibility of mistake by the coder. This makes the resulting software much stable and secure. Thats why a/c pilots are not found pressing ctrl+alt+del in their cockpit.
Now, this alledged hacking software in JSF has to break through a network connection it is not connected or has access to, try to break down the code which it has never seen before, a code which is verified thousands of times, a code written in the most rigid programming languages in the world and protected by heavy encryption and security software. And oh! I forgot, it has to do all this in a matter of few minutes.
And dont even get me started on putting a virus into the enemy software. It has not only to do all the above for that but also build a universal virus which should work against any unknown code.
Now, I have explained this in the most elementary way as possible. Now, if you cannot even now see how absurd this whole scenario is, then nobody can help you understand this.

Added later: And in home PCs, there are numerous other softwares installed, which again may leave the comp vunerable. This is not an issue with an a/c.

Added Later: I forgot to mention the most important point. Hacking is done by a person (in most cases a group of persons) with virtually unlimited time and attempts at their disposal. Now, you are telling me that within a few years such AI tech will be created which will be able to do all this in a matter of minutes without the help of any human?
Last edited by Gaur on 08 Jul 2010 23:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shameek » 08 Jul 2010 22:57

Kanan, assuming all the tech you mention works perfectly, the question still remains whether they outweigh the negatives in performance and cost that have been pointed out by many here. You may want the F-35 and thats your opinion, but being a forum most people feel it is not an ideal choice for the IN.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 08 Jul 2010 22:58

Kanan,
Answer me this. Even if this miraculous hacking tech in JSF would one day work, would it be present in the export versions of F-35?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2010 23:01

kanan, being active has nothing to do with the objections Gaur or I presented.

not to mention that the SW will effectively isolate any incoming data and not allow it any executive functions whatsoever. as Gaur mentioned this kind of code is very rigidly written and will do exactly what it has been asked by the authorised user 99.999999% of the time. it is not built to accept any alien instructions and will automatically reject anything that doesn't fit its limited file definitions to the t.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 08 Jul 2010 23:10

shiv wrote:Newbie question. My uncle who works in the radar section of BEL asked me if I have heard of an operating system called Linux which has built in resistance to virus attacks. I once knew a telephone system operator called Linda, but not Linux. And she used to get colds regularly - so she was not resistant to viruses.

Any idea about this?

:oops: Need to take sarcasm 101 classes. Thaks RahulM for the heads up.
Last edited by Gaur on 08 Jul 2010 23:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2010 23:14

Gaur, shiv ji's Q was rhetorical, he is no n00b to linux. ;)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 08 Jul 2010 23:21

Do you think IN will go for a new aircraft for IAC-2&3? If yes what should it be? AFAIK, the RFI was for fighters for IAC-2! Don't you think three different fighter types are too much for IN?
MiG-29k+LCA-N+(F-35/Rafale/Super Hornet)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2010 23:29

^^^
it's a no-brainer that IN will need 5-gen fighters in the future, whether it be 10 or 15 years from now or even later (remember the urgency will also be dictated by what potential adversaries have). only three possible candidates emerge, N-FGFA, N-AMCA and JSF. IN's backing of NLCA clearly points out they are indeed thinking about N-FGFA and/or N-AMCA. F-35 could be the hedging the bets candidate.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 08 Jul 2010 23:34

and Rahul what do you think is the better fighter: MiG-29k/Naval-LCA? how would their roles differ?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2010 23:36

allow me to ask a rhetorical question,
which is the better fighter, F-22 or F-35 ? which one should USAF have ? how would their roles differ?

if you can answer that you will be one step closer to answering your own question. ;)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2010 05:54

Kanan wrote:
I will have to admit that stealth aircraft are HEAVY Maintanence! But the tech can not be ignored, right? I like PAKFA for IAF and F-35 for IN! Its my opinion, yours could differ!


Thank you for being so gracious as to admit that opinions could differ. That is a fundamental requirement for survival and exchange of info on here. You think what you think. I think what I think. Others who read what each of us thinks decide for themselves what they want to believe.

For any machine with embedded software there two requirements for meddling with the software. the first is to have access to a way of writing something into memory. The second is to make the system execute something that you have placed in memory. This is true for all operating systems. Like me and all my possibilities with Angelina Jolie - just because something is possible does not mean that it can be done in practice.

Once we confuse possibilities with the practicable - we would have defeated a US-China combine in war.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby JimmyJ » 09 Jul 2010 06:38

Well the moment I type the question I see it bit dumb but still,

Why are the high altitude airbases not employing a Catapult Assisted Take Off for fighters if the airbase is secured [at least to an extend \] against a cruise missile kind of attack? The question is especially w.r.t Tibet

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Gaur » 09 Jul 2010 07:48

^^
Catapult assisted take off is used in Carriers because the runway is too short to achieve the required speed for take off. At high altitude, the problem is two fold. First problem is that the depreciation of engine performance and the second is reduction of lift provided by control surfaces. First problem can be better countered with longer runway (because assisted take offs put stress on the undercarriage). As for the second problem, the catapult would not provide any help. I am only hazarding a guess here so members are welcome to correct me if I am wrong.

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Questions on WingTip Rails

Postby Avinandan » 09 Jul 2010 20:51

Newbie questions :
1 ) ADA went for 3 hardpoints under each wing instead of 2 under wing hard points + 1 wingtip rail (like Gripen).
Is it because Wingtip rail technology is comparatively difficult to create or it is because the Wing load area was sufficient to accomodate 3 pylons under each wing and hence there was no requirement to add Wingtip rails?

2) Are Wingtip rails interchangeable between light, medium, heavy fighters ?

3 ) How much does extra weight does a Light Fighter (aka F5 Tiger, Mig 21, LCA , Gripen etc) has to bear if Wingtip rails are added ?

4) Would LCA Mk II would have Wing Tip Rails ?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2010 21:02

JimmyJ wrote:Well the moment I type the question I see it bit dumb but still,

Why are the high altitude airbases not employing a Catapult Assisted Take Off for fighters if the airbase is secured [at least to an extend \] against a cruise missile kind of attack? The question is especially w.r.t Tibet


No need for this. Rocket assisted take offs using jettisonable rocket paks are well known - but the problem is not merely that of take off. After take off climb rate is low and they have to avoid hitting nearby mountains. Landing requires even more runway length.

Only Mohammad Atta and his Paki cousins are interested in take off alone and not landing.
.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby chetak » 09 Jul 2010 21:31

shiv wrote:Newbie question. My uncle who works in the radar section of BEL asked me if I have heard of an operating system called Linux which has built in resistance to virus attacks. I once knew a telephone system operator called Linda, but not Linux. And she used to get colds regularly - so she was not resistant to viruses.

Any idea about this?


http://stason.org/TULARC/os/linux.virus.html

First virus infects Linux

By Janet Kornblum
February 7, 1997, 5:15 p.m. PT

You might think that Jimmy Kuo would be out popping a bottle of bubbly. After all, as director of antivirus research at McAfee, he helped find the world's first Linux virus.


Yet Kuo, who identified the virus after it was forwarded to him from an email list, is anything but thrilled. Finding the first virus on the Linux operating system makes him feel more like the a scientist discovering that Ebola had made its way to the Uni ted States. It opens the door for a lot of damage, work, and headaches.

Right now, the virus dubbed Bliss is more of a novelty than anything. Bliss itself isn't likely to spread very far, but Kuo isn't thinking about now. He's thinking about six months down the road. Bliss will be seen as the watershed marker--the day virus w riters realized that spreading their nasty tricks would be possible on a whole new operating system.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 09 Jul 2010 21:40

Hi seniors,

Plz tell how important is a target pod like sniperXR,ATFLIR,LITENING,Damocles to a fighter's performance? Do they work hand in conjunction with RADARS ?Thnx!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby jamwal » 11 Jul 2010 18:05

What's the deal with INDESEC Expo 2010 ?
Are casual visitors like me allowed ?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Jul 2010 19:15

shiv wrote:Newbie question. My uncle who works in the radar section of BEL asked me if I have heard of an operating system called Linux which has built in resistance to virus attacks. I once knew a telephone system operator called Linda, but not Linux. And she used to get colds regularly - so she was not resistant to viruses.

Any idea about this?
Just to add my 2 cents here, I think the Linux's virtual immunity to viruses can also be accredited to the fact that very very small number of systems run on it. So why would a virus writer rack his brains on writing a virus that won't be worth much even if successful?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby akshay » 12 Jul 2010 01:08

Dmurphy wrote:Just to add my 2 cents here, I think the Linux's virtual immunity to viruses can also be accredited to the fact that very very small number of systems run on it. So why would a virus writer rack his brains on writing a virus that won't be worth much even if successful?

Incorrect. Linux is used heavily for server class machines.
This isn't OpenSource Forum, :(( We going off the topic here methinks.

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Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby akshay » 12 Jul 2010 12:19

Can someone shed light on the Army acquiring howitzers, Where is that deal .. are we still with Singapore or the US

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kanan » 12 Jul 2010 23:06

last heard, India was trying to acquire 145 M777 through FMS from the U.S. Because commercial bids were "taking a lot of time"! Army chief got angry and wrote a letter to the Govt. enlighting them on the perils of FMS and reminded them of the Raytheon RADARS India had acquired in the early 2000s which now lay useless due to lack of support & maintanence! :(

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby karthik » 13 Jul 2010 16:07

Why do some of the old members have their date of joining as 1975 or 80? Did they serve in the Army then or where they arm chair critiques since 1960?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jul 2010 18:25

BR was a secret group raised in expectation of the 1971 war.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby uddu » 13 Jul 2010 18:32

And Shiv was the first arm chair General who led BR in the 1971 war. During those Liberation times, he was wounded and awarded the Param chair on which he sits while giving gyan.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby karthik » 13 Jul 2010 19:48

Rahul M wrote:BR was a secret group raised in expectation of the 1971 war.


What where they going to do?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jul 2010 19:51

still classified. I'll give you a hint though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby karthik » 13 Jul 2010 19:53

uddu wrote:And Shiv was the first arm chair General who led BR in the 1971 war. During those Liberation times, he was wounded and awarded the Param chair on which he sits while giving gyan.


I guess this explains why he dropped out as a dentist!! and this Param Chair, does it have holes for farting while posting highly enlightened gyans that no one else is right about?
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Reason: sigh ! some people never learn even after extended send-offs. permanent ban effected.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Carl_T » 14 Jul 2010 05:12

Now in a world of stealth planes, if radars cannot pick out enemy planes, how will BVR missiles operate?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby S_Prasad » 14 Jul 2010 07:19

Any updates on MSMC after the initial trials?


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