Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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KiranM
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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby KiranM » 19 Sep 2008 20:39

ashdivay wrote:Sorry . but if moderators want they can remove the post.

They are moderators. Not cleaners. If you know your discussion is out of topic and not contributing anything other than flame-baiting then its your duty to this forum from desisting so as much as this forum gives you the right to post IMVHO.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby rkhanna » 20 Sep 2008 22:46

MY OBSERVATION: These guys must be part of the special Cell. Shouldn't they be issued wih BPJ's at least. The officer who died was shot in the abdomen. He would have been saved.
Loosing good officers like that is not acceptable.



They are UC of the Delhi Police ATS (Special Cell). They were probably doing recce and blending in with the local population before the take down. BPJs and assault gear would have stuck out like a sore thumb. You can even see a couple of them wearing flip flops and of them dressed in jeans could easily pass of as a college student.

PS.. notice the MP-5.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby fanne » 20 Sep 2008 23:20

They newpaper wallah who got that photo of UC (and put their lives at risk) needs to be taught that this is not the right thing to do.
rgds,
fanne

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Jay » 20 Sep 2008 23:40

fanne wrote:They newpaper wallah who got that photo of UC (and put their lives at risk) needs to be taught that this is not the right thing to do.
rgds,
fanne



Plain clothes is not same as Under Cover. Apart from shooting a camera, the paper walla need not learn anything, Period.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Raja Bose » 20 Sep 2008 23:56

neerajbhandari wrote:Image

I guess these guys are unaware of 3 rules of gun safety.

Cheers....


Don't think that gun has its mag put in. However, I am sure they are aware of gun safety...after all they use and live with them all the time (and haven't heard any reports of accidental discharge amongst DP ATS guys)

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Raja Bose » 20 Sep 2008 23:59

ssmitra,

Please post link which gives details of encounter/word on the policeman who gave his life. I surely hope NSG didn't again get stuck in traffic...maybe they should withdraw all SRG cover from the babus till they get dedicated air assets (they do have helipads at Manesar).

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby vdutta » 21 Sep 2008 02:15

looks like the plain cloth policemen were called on the last minutes. some of them are in chappals and sandels.
good riddance of the coward pigs.
muja-hijras go to hell.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby vdutta » 21 Sep 2008 02:18

Jay wrote:
fanne wrote:They newpaper wallah who got that photo of UC (and put their lives at risk) needs to be taught that this is not the right thing to do.
rgds,
fanne



Plain clothes is not same as Under Cover. Apart from shooting a camera, the paper walla need not learn anything, Period.

our paper wallas are so naive.
they showed the pics and showed the names of the witnesses who saw the pigs planting bombs in recent bombings.
whatever happened to witness safety and concealment of identity.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby rkhanna » 21 Sep 2008 02:26

Plain clothes is not same as Under Cover.


There is a subtle difference in the way our IPS wallas dress in Plain Clothes and when under cover. Normally police in Plain Clothes have long shirts (nehru style shirt pant) to over their Weapons. In bombay you can spot a plain clothes Cop from a mile away. Now look at these guys.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby chimmalgi » 21 Sep 2008 05:22

Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby faraz » 21 Sep 2008 05:49

chimmalgi wrote:Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?


Not much difference between the two ! Both are filthy. Pigs have tape-worms, Terrorists have taped-bombs. Both look cute when they are dead.

It is high time we stop having soft-corners for these pigs !

There are already lots of Arun-dhat-tere-ki Roys, Gautam Navlakhas and Dr. Angana Chatterjis to take care of them.



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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby ssmitra » 21 Sep 2008 09:32

rkhanna wrote:
MY OBSERVATION: These guys must be part of the special Cell. Shouldn't they be issued wih BPJ's at least. The officer who died was shot in the abdomen. He would have been saved.
Loosing good officers like that is not acceptable.



They are UC of the Delhi Police ATS (Special Cell). They were probably doing recce and blending in with the local population before the take down. BPJs and assault gear would have stuck out like a sore thumb. You can even see a couple of them wearing flip flops and of them dressed in jeans could easily pass of as a college student.

PS.. notice the MP-5.


Agreed but they most probably were not doing recce with assault rifles in their hand.So they must have been handed those prior to the actual assault. Hence why not make BPJ mandatory. No body doubts the bravery of officers like Sharma but apart from losing him imagine the amount of intelligence, contacts, informant networks he may have built up over the years lost due to his death. What gets me is he dies from a wound in his abdomen. Not a head shot which could have easily been prevented.

I remember a similar case in mid 80's when an SSP Gurdaspur district was killed by the Babbar Khalsa. This is prior to KPS Gill taking over. With him Punjab Police lost almost complete control of arms infiltration over the border because he always kept his sources to himself specially since that time no one knew who to trust. Took KPS almost 5 years to plug that hole.

sorry for going off topic..

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby sum » 21 Sep 2008 12:33

There is a subtle difference in the way our IPS wallas dress in Plain Clothes and when under cover. Normally police in Plain Clothes have long shirts (nehru style shirt pant) to over their Weapons. In bombay you can spot a plain clothes Cop from a mile away. Now look at these guys.

True...add the fearsome mustache and body-builder like physique...

Thats why its good to see these new breed of "college-students" like cops who will easily blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb...

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby neerajb » 21 Sep 2008 13:39

ssmitra wrote:Agreed but they most probably were not doing recce with assault rifles in their hand.


MP 5 is not an assault rifile but a sub machine gun firing 9X19 Parabellum pistol rounds.

Cheers....

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby vdutta » 21 Sep 2008 13:53

chimmalgi wrote:Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?

a pig with any name is still a pig.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Raveen » 21 Sep 2008 19:04

chimmalgi wrote:
Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?

a pig with any name is still a pig.
chimmalgi wrote:Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?

a pig with any name is still a pig.




Because you can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig!

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Nayak » 21 Sep 2008 19:33

Can you guys please drop the references to Pigs ? I have received complaints from pigs of high pedigree that they feel insulted getting compared to Pakis.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2008 20:36

ok guys this is still the 'pictures' thread.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby ssmitra » 21 Sep 2008 21:08

Rahul M wrote:ok guys this is still the 'pictures' thread.


Rahul-Boss maan, could you please start a Pictures and discussion thread where we could cross post pictures from here and beat them to death in that thread. Pleeeaassse

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2008 21:16

ssmitra wrote:
Rahul M wrote:ok guys this is still the 'pictures' thread.


Rahul-Boss maan, could you please start a Pictures and discussion thread where we could cross post pictures from here and beat them to death in that thread. Pleeeaassse

you can always do that in the umpteen discussion threads. just cross post the pics there or the misc discussions thread and discuss these to death !
cheers.

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Re: Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Postby ssmitra » 22 Sep 2008 04:56

neerajbhandari wrote:
ssmitra wrote:Agreed but they most probably were not doing recce with assault rifles in their hand.


MP 5 is not an assault rifile but a sub machine gun firing 9X19 Parabellum pistol rounds.

Cheers....


yep and the other two are MP5 in disguise or AK. They almost look like Vz-58's to me. May be the MP5 is the HK53A3 but yes it looks like a MP5 since i have never heard of Indian forces ever using the HK53
Image

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Re: Military Miscellaneous Posts and Discussions Thread

Postby vrush » 22 Sep 2008 19:44

ImageImage

ONE CAN SEE THE UNDERGROUND AMMO BUNKERS CIRCULAR IN SHAPE IN THE WEST CORNER OF THE AIRFIELD BUILT IN A TRIANGULAR FASHION.

ImageImage

KINARA HILLS IS THE LARGEST AMMO DUMP OF PAKISTAN , LOCATED SOUTHEAST OF SARGODHA,ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PIC ONE CAN SEE TUNNELS INSIDE THE HILL. :D

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Re: Military Miscellaneous Posts and Discussions Thread

Postby Sachin » 22 Sep 2008 21:26

The first time after 1947 an Indian Army Band takes part in Edinburgh Military Tatoo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fONy_Zf0-LY

I could not name the tune they are playing when entering the stage, even though I have heard it before. Then they play Kadam Kadam Bhadaye Jaa (Capt. Ram Singh) and Dhwaj Ke Rakshak (J.H.D Simeon). The irony is that Kadam Kadam Bhadaye Jaa, was a song composed for the INA (and not for the then British Indian Army per-se) :wink: .

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Re: Military Miscellaneous Posts and Discussions Thread

Postby K Mehta » 22 Sep 2008 21:31

vrush,
please cross post it in pakistan arms sales...thread.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby ssmitra » 23 Sep 2008 02:09

This was a picture taken last year of a Delhi Police commando. What happened to their Gear during the encounter.

Image

Please discuss here to death

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Sep 2008 04:26

ssmitra wrote:This was a picture taken last year of a Delhi Police commando. What happened to their Gear during the encounter.

Image

Please discuss here to death


Well, let me start the discussion 'til concussion :D

Nothing stands out from the DP commando's kit except BPJ but then the reason for not using BPJ was given in the Delhi Blasts thread. However given that reason I wonder why they didnt wear BPJ under their shirts like some of the bideshi agencies....perhaps DP BPJs are too bulky to wear in such manner.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby hnair » 23 Sep 2008 04:39

Raja Bose wrote:Well, let me start the discussion 'til concussion :D


Here let me also contribute. May I suggest this? I particularly like the red one. A cherry red one to toss into the middle of a circle of baying young BR-ites. But I recently heard that the thrower has to wear a pair of raybans to ward them off, incase they turn around and attack. :P

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 23 Sep 2008 08:13

hnair wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Well, let me start the discussion 'til concussion :D


Here let me also contribute. May I suggest this? I particularly like the red one. A cherry red one to toss into the middle of a circle of baying young BR-ites. But I recently heard that the thrower has to wear a pair of raybans to ward them off, incase they turn around and attack. :P


aaargh! not the 'scooter helmet-why NSG wears them-makes them look like rickshaw wallahs-pakis wear PASGT bakshish helmet-delta wears hockey crap' debate again. :roll:

If any newbie BRFeelis try to jump up and participate in this scooter-rickshaw debate....one of the adminullah predator drones monitoring the airspace might just hellfire our jirga and fedex us into houridom! :((

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Re: Military Miscellaneous Posts and Discussions Thread

Postby Arun_S » 26 Sep 2008 10:09

ramana wrote:Their HR concerns not withstanding, look into what was the shaft capapbility in which the S1 was tested.


neerajbhandari wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote:I couldn't understand what you meant by shaft capability. Can you elaborate?

Cheers....

the shafts in which the devices were placed.


A simple english version (not a cryptic one) is solicited for understanding :) . What does shallow or deep shaft has to do with the low yield? If the shaft was too shallow to contain a 45KT (by design) thermonuclear, then the BARC people must be knowing that beforehand. Then why to declare 45KT in the first place.

Cheers....

Ramana is asking look at the maximum yield the shaft can bare. There is a set relationship between the depth of burial, the type of surrounding rocks and the maximum explosive yield at which the shaft will be unable to contain the radioactive stew from falling out in the open. Pls read a BR Monitor article written by V.Sunder to understand:
BR Monitor: The Indian Nuclear tests - Summary paper - D. Ramana, Matt Thundyil and V.Sunder

In the case of S1 shaft was so deep that the S1 yield barely unsettled the rocks on the surface, as against forming a shallow much less fully formed crater. There is NO crater atop S1 site.
then the BARC people must be knowing that beforehand.

Yes not only the BARC people but all Shakti constituents including DRDO, knew beforehand what to expect, and after S1 they had long faces after seeing just cracked ground but no crater . Pls read "Weapons Of Peace" by Raj Changappa.

May be worthwhile to also read from BRF archive on Nuclear discussion thread V.Sunder's changed pronouncements on S1 yield estimate based on depth of burial for 1974 Pok-I (the yield of Pok-I is taken as a datum to multiply the relative energy generated by Pok-I and Pok-II)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby vipins » 26 Sep 2008 14:32

are the israeli ones as big as this?
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airde ... HTARS8.jpg

unkil is testing a system JLENS for cruise missile detection and defence

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/jle ... ore-02921/

note the FC radar on one balloon and search radar on another.

not being highly presurized they can remain floating even after many punctures.

inshallah, we should replace our static ground based 3D radars with networks of these
type. more survivable and better low-flyer detection.

thread link

saarji,
can we fit our aerostats with something like an astra variant so that it can not only detect cruise missiles n drones etc but also target them at longer ranges? :D

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Mach Thruster: Woodward Effect?

Postby Sanjay M » 28 Sep 2008 10:32

Okay, here's a different idea for "propellant-less" propulsion:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004AIPC..699.1138M

It's based on some idea by a University of California physicist named James Woodward, who himself preferred to use the term "Mach Effect"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodward_effect

Basically, his idea was that if you have mass moving at relativistic velocity inside another mass, then the internal moving mass can make itself heavier or lighter by changing how fast it's moving.

So then if you make the overall system oscillate (surrounding mass), and you time the movements of the inner mass with the oscillations, then you can selectively impart more momentum in one part of the oscillation than in another, for the overall system. This would create a net change in momentum for the system.

Did anybody catch what I said there?

Hmm, this one has me scratching my head.


So where did the extra mass/momentum on demand come from? Well, it came from the relativistic motion of the inner mass. You can switch that motion on or off, depending on which way your overall mass-system is oscillating. If momentum is to be conserved, then where did the difference in momentum go? It went to, umm, space? It went to whatever it is that opposes the acceleration of a relativistically-moving mass. The universe?

Hmm, tell me, if I lift up a cyclotron that's whirling particles around at extremely high speed, will it feel heavier to me than if I lifted it up while it was turned off?
Does anybody see what I'm saying here?

In that sense, is a relativistically-moving mass really a closed system? Or is it somehow interacting with space itself, where space itself can't really be described as closed?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby vajra » 29 Sep 2008 00:46

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post, so I thought I would make it interesting, but I made some mistakes, I created a separate thread, and then it was locked and so here I am, well I didnot had an ideas as this that we cannot create a new thread, sorry about that....
Well someone can actually delete that thread if they want since I posted it in here.
So,
actually I was wondering few things which pertain to missile technology in general, thus I thought I would write in this forum. Here I go...

Through out the decades after WW2, missiles have played a major role in projecting defense capabilities, but before that time, and aircraft was usually used to deliver a bomb, my question is:
1) What makes a modern missile(Cruise/Ballistic) and fighter aircraft or bomber different, I mean I know some major difference but I am interested in following characteristics:
Is missile faster than all possible Aircraft? Is this speed not attainable by aircraft at all?
Is missile less detectable by Radar compared to fighter/bomber?
Is it that a cruise missile can not be intercepted?
Is it impossible for any advance aircraft intercepts a missile(ballistic/cruise) and destroy it?
Are there no Cruise missile in the world which can be classified as ICBM(range > 10000 KM)?

If the answer to most of the above question is 'no', then other than being unmanned why is missile such aggressively pursued world wide.

2) One major doubt in my mind is whether a cruise missile is interpceptable and destructible before it strikes. I mean in the air, since all I hear is Anti Ballistic Missile technology currently pursued. I also understand that a Ballistic missile is theoretically can be intercepted since its flight path is usually ballistic, that is fixed, thus I wonder whether a cruise missile can be intercepted.

3) Are there any missile in the world which carries self-defense capabilities including on flight offensive weapons etc. For example is it possible for a missile to destroy an interceptor targeted towards it while being in flight towards its target, much like an aircraft, which usually carries weapons bay along with it.

What I am trying to point towards here is something like this:

Take US X-51 and Russia's S-37 and SS-27 TOPOL-M, India's Bramhos 2 and RLV/HTDV, Most advanced UCAV in the world and combine them to create a weapon which can kill an interceptor, changing and maneuvering its flight path in response to aggression, endo-exo atmospheric hypersonic speed, and fully autonomous meaning Digital pilot. The vehicle itself ma or may not be sacrificed in a particular striike.

The combination will be like this:
X-51/RLV/HTDV - Take Hypersonic cruise, stealth, and small design.
S-37 = Take the weapon bay, defensive radar for on flight aggression and stealth
SS-27 TOPOL-M - Maneuverability, evasiveness.
Bramhos-2 - Cruise and autonomous guidance.
UCAV - Auto pilot and guidance.

What I am asking are this kind of technology feasible theoretically, I mean if this works than the concept of missile will become outdated. I think countries like USA is working on similar things but not on the idea of on flight aggression.

There are other constraints regarding usability and deployment and launching etc of such a vhicle, offcourse it won;t be possible to launch such a thing from atop your shoulder or may be a mobile launching platform.

I would like to know your thoughts on this...

Regards

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby bhutnath » 29 Sep 2008 03:49

hmm.. let me but in with my own queries. I posted this some time back, found locked with some illegible post from the moderator. Couldn't make out where to take it. This seems like a place it may fit. Here goes -

I game in WINSPMBT (if you haven't discovered it yet, go jump off the roof). Here the frontal turret armor of Arjun MkI is listed at about 570mm and t90 at 710 (Indian version). With the penetration of Arjun's APFSDS at 650 and T90 at 730.

It didn't make sense to me that a tank good 10+ tons heavier sported an inferior armor. Either our manufacturing tech is not up to the mark or/and the extra volume is enough to consume 10 tonnes over the T90.

In any case, I was wondering if some of the better informed here could help speculate for me what these values should be (and why). I get my understanding of military affairs through games and modeling the tanks statistics as close to our understanding of it will go long way in making this simulation fun and relevant.

The pain is that in a futuristic 2011 conflict scenario with china, those punks can sport the type99a2 with frontal armor at 850 and sabot penetration of 900. Neither the t90 or arjun can penetrate this beast's frontal armor nor survive a hit.

Appreciate all and any help. On the side note any one plays? :)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby ssmitra » 05 Oct 2008 06:52

brar wrote:has it occurred to anyone that they could be Muslims and not just disguse?


Nope. The picture with the Tavor. The para has a Kara so he is either Sikh or Hindu from North India (excluding UP)


Rahul M wrote:they could be of any religion but it is a disguise.
non-sikh regular soldiers aren't allowed to keep beards.
exceptions are marcos and undercover SF.



rajkhalsa wrote:Some more pics from the encounter... I think 'human camo' is an apt description....

Image

Image

Image

Image



ssmitra wrote:
rajkhalsa wrote:Some more pics from the encounter... I think 'human camo' is an apt description....


Image


If these guys didn't have the para badge beret I would swear they are part of some TSP ranger battalion or something.

This is some of the best "disguise" I have seen. Initially they would only use Sikh soldiers with flowing beards which would still make them stand out.
I am surprised photo's of these particular guys was allowed.

Time for some Duvdevan style raids into POK


Please Continue here.....

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Training Missiles

Postby saumitra_j » 05 Oct 2008 08:48

Question to Gurus: How does IAF actually train with "training rounds" or inert missiles? I mean is the inert missle supposed to simulate just the weight of the missile to support flight manouvers or does it have an active seeker? I would really appreciate if some body can cast some light no how these work:
1. IR homing training rounds like the R73/R60
2. Semi Active Missiles like the R27-ER1
3. Fully active ones: RVV-AE
Many thanks in advance!
Saumitra

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2008 21:16

I think a new thread called technology and national security is needed where folks can understand the interplay between the two fields.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby RayC » 06 Oct 2008 21:18

Why call them pigs...why not just use terrorist?


I totally agree with you.

Abusive language is a sole sign of impotent frustration.

It encourages the adversary to realise that their action has got you under the skin and it delights them immensely that they have achieved their aim!

One should learn to have stoic, grace and polished selection of syntax showing that they are beneath contempt rather than being crass and crude!

Such carries more conviction and weight!

A pig may be a pig even with lipstick, but to state that is a waste of precious lipstick, though a delightful experience in experimentation on hockey moms could be more forceful than calling her a Pig!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous Discussions Thread

Postby Anshul » 08 Oct 2008 23:27

rajkhalsa wrote:Some more pics from the encounter... I think 'human camo' is an apt description....


Image

Man o Man!!! These guys must be the cream of the SF.IA isn't new to human camo....but could they be elements of Marcos seconded to the para unit?

Also on a closer look..are these guys sporting Zittaras?

My primitive senses are causing goose bumps...these guys look too unreal ....i mean they look deadly....bring it on material.


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