Indian Navy and International Anti-Piracy Ops

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
cholaraja
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 23:42

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby cholaraja » 27 Nov 2008 23:55

well this is getting silly, even if turns out not to be the mother of no irates shi, it had no right to fire on any shi let alone an INS let it rest at the bottom of the sea

Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Gerard » 28 Nov 2008 04:30

For the fans of the fool Gary Brecher...
link

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5426
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby niran » 28 Nov 2008 09:41

PaulJI wrote:Ajay Pratap - can you supply any supporting evidence for the Malacca Straits story?



This was in 1988,or 89, in those days there used to be a side column for breaking NEWS.
Which would be published in detail the following day.

I remember reading two items
1- Malaysian Navy claims that they found IDs on the dead Pirates.
involving Sirichai Fisheries.
The details never came next day.

2- few days later about a fire in HR dept. with reports of few ledgers
destroyed.

once again no details was published later.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Nov 2008 16:30

serious international newspapers are carrying articles about pirate situation but not mentioning this alleged mistaken identity angle - meaning that those in the know are not worrying about it - since the better newspapers would have checked their sources. neither should we.

khalas

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21158
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Prem » 29 Nov 2008 00:45

Fox reporting Somalian pirates has captured an Indian Ship carrying chemicals and 25 members of its crew.

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 29 Nov 2008 01:14

Rahul M wrote:
- well, you'd better hope that you're never taken hostage anywhere where the local authorities share your attitude - or do you think that it would be right for them to kill you, as well as your captors? What is expected of them is to keep track of what is going on, & make decisions based on as much information as possible. This is policing, not a war!


paul, would a pithy fishing vessel 'attack' a warship if it had hostages on-board who could be used for tactics like bargaining or even human-shield ?
no one in their right mind would have done it.

I think that "attack" may be the wrong word. After all, their weapons couldn't do much damage to the warship, & they must have known that. More like "fire in the general direction of the warship to show they were prepared to fight off any attempt to capture the ship". That's what another bunch did when trapped by the RN. In that case, the RN response was for marines to shoot back (much more accurately) at the people shooting at them, rather than sink the boat. A couple of pirates were killed, & the rest surrendered. The boat turned out to be stolen from Yemeni owners. I don't know if it's been returned to them.

BTW, did the INS Tabar report any communication with the pirates?

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 29 Nov 2008 01:18

Lalmohan wrote:serious international newspapers are carrying articles about pirate situation but not mentioning this alleged mistaken identity angle - meaning that those in the know are not worrying about it - since the better newspapers would have checked their sources. neither should we.

khalas

What serious international newspapers do you refer to? I've had personal experience of events which were inaccurately reported by serious international newspapers. Some supposedly serious newspapers have been caught out printing major stories without doing any checking at all.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17005
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2008 01:21

Paul, for you.

PIB Press Release
Ministry of Defence

INS Tabar, which is currently in the Gulf of Aden for Anti-Piracy Surveillance and Patrol Operations, encountered a pirate vessel, 285 NM South West of Salalah (Oman) on the evening of 18 Nov 08, with two speed boats in tow. This vessel was similar in description to the 'Mother Vessel' mentioned in various Piracy bulletins.

INS Tabar closed the vessel and asked her to stop for investigation. On repeated calls, the vessel's threatening response was that she would blow up the Naval Warship if it closed her. Pirates were seen roaming on the upper deck of this vessel with guns and Rocket Propelled Grenade launchers. The vessel continued its threatening calls and subsequently fired upon INS Tabar.


this is from Press Information Bureau of GoI.

other reports suggest the boat proceeded to move very fast in the general direction of tabar, apparently to ram it.
I'm really not buying the thai crew claim.

Shivani
BRFite
Posts: 207
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 13:00
Location: भारत
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Shivani » 29 Nov 2008 01:58

Prem wrote:Fox reporting Somalian pirates has captured an Indian Ship carrying chemicals and 25 members of its crew.


British and Irish anti-piracy experts rescued - after pirates attack

The Times wrote:November 28, 2008

Image

Two British and one Irish security guard have been plucked from the sea by a military helicopter after jumping from a chemical tanker seized by pirates off Somalia.

Their decision to abandon the two dozen crew members still on board attracted some criticism, but their British employer insisted that the three former soldiers were heroes who had resisted a sustained attack by heavily-armed pirates with great courage and would have been killed if they had stayed any longer.

“They were unarmed. They had no other option...As far as I’m concerned they deserve a medal,” said Nick Davis, a former British army pilot who runs Anti-Piracy Maritime Security Solutions (APMSS) out of Poole, Dorset.

The attack happened early this morning as the Liberian-flagged tanker, the Biscaglia, was sailing through the Gulf of Aden from India to Rotterdam.

At 7.48am the captain sent out a distress call which was relayed to the Nivose, a French frigate that is part of the western naval task force protecting commercial shipping from Somalia’s ever-bolder pirates.

The Nivose would have taken two hours to reach the scene so it dispatched a helicopter, but by the time it arrived the six pirates had already seized the Biscaglia.

“There were three members of the crew on the roof (of the ship),” said Frederic Karakaya, the helicopter pilot. “They were hiding and signalled to us. They were spotted, and jumped into the water.

“We pretended we hadn’t seen them so we didn’t alert the pirates to their position. We dropped a coloured marker, then gave their position to a German Lynx (helicopter) which winched them aboard.”

The three guards, still wearing baseball caps and lifejackets, were deposited on the Nivose and later transferred to another French naval vessel, the Jean de Vienne. They were uninjured but have not yet been named.

At least 27 other crew members - 25 Indians and two Bangladeshis - were being held hostage on board the Biscaglia, which was reportedly heading for the semi-autonomous northern region of Puntland.

One western aid official closely involved with Somalia told The Times that after all the calls for commercial vessels to hire security guards it was “somewhat ironic that they jump overboard to save themselves”.

But Mr Davis staunchly defended his team. He said they had been attacked by six pirates in a high-speed skiff armed with AK47s and rocket-propelled grenades.

He claimed the three guards - two former marines and an ex-paratrooper - held them off for about 40 minutes, long enough for the crew to send out a distress call and seek safety below deck.

They fired water cannon at the pirates, and zig-zagged. They also used a long range accoustic device (LRAD) which fires laser-like beams of excruciatingly-painful sound at attackers. They beat off three or four attacks but the pirates then began firing RPGs at the LRAD’s operator.

Mr Davis said the pirates continued to shoot at the security guards after boarding, and that the three men had no choice but to abandon ship. The pirates then fired on them while they were in the water, and tried to run them down in the hijacked vessel.

“They did what they felt they had to do to save their lives and the lives of the crew,” said Mr Davis, 37.

The Biscaglia is the 97th vessel this year to be attacked in the waters off Somalia, where Islamist insurgents are battling a weak, western-backed government and all semblance of law and order has broken down. At least 15 ships, and more than 300 crew members, are being held for ransom.

APMSS provides three-man teams of former soldiers to protect commercial vessels, and in recent weeks the demand for its services has soared. It presently has teams on ten ships off Somalia - each costing £14,000 for three days - and only last week Mr Davis boasted that “there has never been a successful boarding with a security force on board a vessel.

As the Biscaglia was seized, Somali pirates released a Greek-owned cargo ship, the Centauri, that they captured on Setpember 18. The crew of 25 Filipinos was unharmed. It was unclear whether the owners paid a ransom.

The ships still being held include the Sirius Star, a giant tanker carrying two million barrels of oil which was seized on November 15. Its captors have warned of “disastrous consequences” if its Saudi owners do not pay a $25 million ransom by tomorrow.


PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 29 Nov 2008 02:38

Rahul M wrote:Paul, for you.

PIB Press Release
Ministry of Defence

INS Tabar, which is currently in the Gulf of Aden for Anti-Piracy Surveillance and Patrol Operations, encountered a pirate vessel, 285 NM South West of Salalah (Oman) on the evening of 18 Nov 08, with two speed boats in tow. This vessel was similar in description to the 'Mother Vessel' mentioned in various Piracy bulletins.

INS Tabar closed the vessel and asked her to stop for investigation. On repeated calls, the vessel's threatening response was that she would blow up the Naval Warship if it closed her. Pirates were seen roaming on the upper deck of this vessel with guns and Rocket Propelled Grenade launchers. The vessel continued its threatening calls and subsequently fired upon INS Tabar.


this is from Press Information Bureau of GoI.

other reports suggest the boat proceeded to move very fast in the general direction of tabar, apparently to ram it.
I'm really not buying the thai crew claim.


It can't have moved very fast, as it had a rather low top speed. INS Tabar could easily evade it, being much faster & with much greater acceleration.

Why don't you believe the Thai crew were aboard, & prisoners? Apart from the one who was pulled out of the sea by other fishermen a couple of days later (he wasn't in the water 6 days; he was landed in Yemen after 6 days), they're all missing. The vessel was reported attacked hours before Tabar found it, & according to the IMB, had been identified as having been hijacked. You don't have to take the word of the owners for the hijacking, as they didn't report it hijacked, but under attack - and they got that message from others. The time between reports of the attack & its encounter with Tabar was not enough for the crew to be put off, unless they'd been put over the side. The only one of the crew who's turned up says they were still aboard. Why do you think he would lie?

It's not the first time one of their vessels has been attacked. The USCG successfully recaptured one (Sirichai Nava 12) from pirates 16-Mar-2005. One crew member slightly wounded.

Sirichai seems to sail close to the wind with its fishing & recruiting, but there's no evidence of it being anything other than a fishing firm with some iffy business practices (fishing in high-risk areas, recruiting the poor & desperate & ignoring employment laws, fishing where it isn't licenced . . . ), such as are regrettably common in the fishing industry.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17005
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2008 08:47

Why don't you believe the Thai crew were aboard, & prisoners? Apart from the one who was pulled out of the sea by other fishermen a couple of days later (he wasn't in the water 6 days; he was landed in Yemen after 6 days), they're all missing. The vessel was reported attacked hours before Tabar found it, & according to the IMB, had been identified as having been hijacked. You don't have to take the word of the owners for the hijacking, as they didn't report it hijacked, but under attack - and they got that message from others. The time between reports of the attack & its encounter with Tabar was not enough for the crew to be put off, unless they'd been put over the side. The only one of the crew who's turned up says they were still aboard. Why do you think he would lie?


Not disbelieving that the ship was attacked. But I don't think the original crew was on-board at the time.

hard to believe that the fishing crew were on-board and the pirates chose to adopt a hostile stance against a warship when they could have prevented any action by Tabar by just announcing that they had hostages.
nobody is that stupid.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22499
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby chetak » 29 Nov 2008 10:59

Shivani wrote:
Prem wrote:Fox reporting Somalian pirates has captured an Indian Ship carrying chemicals and 25 members of its crew.


British and Irish anti-piracy experts rescued - after pirates attack

The Times wrote:November 28, 2008

Image

Two British and one Irish security guard have been plucked from the sea by a military helicopter after jumping from a chemical tanker seized by pirates off Somalia.

Their decision to abandon the two dozen crew members still on board attracted some criticism, but their British employer insisted that the three former soldiers were heroes who had resisted a sustained attack by heavily-armed pirates with great courage and would have been killed if they had stayed any longer.

“They were unarmed. They had no other option...As far as I’m concerned they deserve a medal,” said Nick Davis, a former British army pilot who runs Anti-Piracy Maritime Security Solutions (APMSS) out of Poole, Dorset.

The attack happened early this morning as the Liberian-flagged tanker, the Biscaglia, was sailing through the Gulf of Aden from India to Rotterdam.

At 7.48am the captain sent out a distress call which was relayed to the Nivose, a French frigate that is part of the western naval task force protecting commercial shipping from Somalia’s ever-bolder pirates.

The Nivose would have taken two hours to reach the scene so it dispatched a helicopter, but by the time it arrived the six pirates had already seized the Biscaglia.

“There were three members of the crew on the roof (of the ship),” said Frederic Karakaya, the helicopter pilot. “They were hiding and signalled to us. They were spotted, and jumped into the water.

“We pretended we hadn’t seen them so we didn’t alert the pirates to their position. We dropped a coloured marker, then gave their position to a German Lynx (helicopter) which winched them aboard.”

The three guards, still wearing baseball caps and lifejackets, were deposited on the Nivose and later transferred to another French naval vessel, the Jean de Vienne. They were uninjured but have not yet been named.

At least 27 other crew members - 25 Indians and two Bangladeshis - were being held hostage on board the Biscaglia, which was reportedly heading for the semi-autonomous northern region of Puntland.

One western aid official closely involved with Somalia told The Times that after all the calls for commercial vessels to hire security guards it was “somewhat ironic that they jump overboard to save themselves”.

But Mr Davis staunchly defended his team. He said they had been attacked by six pirates in a high-speed skiff armed with AK47s and rocket-propelled grenades.

He claimed the three guards - two former marines and an ex-paratrooper - held them off for about 40 minutes, long enough for the crew to send out a distress call and seek safety below deck.

They fired water cannon at the pirates, and zig-zagged. They also used a long range accoustic device (LRAD) which fires laser-like beams of excruciatingly-painful sound at attackers. They beat off three or four attacks but the pirates then began firing RPGs at the LRAD’s operator.

Mr Davis said the pirates continued to shoot at the security guards after boarding, and that the three men had no choice but to abandon ship. The pirates then fired on them while they were in the water, and tried to run them down in the hijacked vessel.

“They did what they felt they had to do to save their lives and the lives of the crew,” said Mr Davis, 37.

The Biscaglia is the 97th vessel this year to be attacked in the waters off Somalia, where Islamist insurgents are battling a weak, western-backed government and all semblance of law and order has broken down. At least 15 ships, and more than 300 crew members, are being held for ransom.

APMSS provides three-man teams of former soldiers to protect commercial vessels, and in recent weeks the demand for its services has soared. It presently has teams on ten ships off Somalia - each costing £14,000 for three days - and only last week Mr Davis boasted that “there has never been a successful boarding with a security force on board a vessel.

As the Biscaglia was seized, Somali pirates released a Greek-owned cargo ship, the Centauri, that they captured on Setpember 18. The crew of 25 Filipinos was unharmed. It was unclear whether the owners paid a ransom.

The ships still being held include the Sirius Star, a giant tanker carrying two million barrels of oil which was seized on November 15. Its captors have warned of “disastrous consequences” if its Saudi owners do not pay a $25 million ransom by tomorrow.




Shivani ji,
So what else is new? :)
This is exactly how the great bwanas departed India so many decades ago. :)

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20719
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Philip » 29 Nov 2008 14:32

"They deserve a medal" for fleeing to live and ...flee another day! So much for these terror "expats",not experts! For results,call in the IN.I ask the question.After the suicide attack on the USS Cole,would any US or wstern warshipwarship allow a suspicious unknown vessel which refuses to stop or be searched at night,with two small speedboats under tow,whose crews saunter above deck waving and firing their weapons at the Tabar without an immediate respone? If an unknown ship did not stop and be searched hwne requested and then opened fire,then its goodbye for them if it an Indian naval warship.Their boldness can be understood by these gallant pirate experts,whose glorious inaction must be the talk of the town in the Eyl pirate watering holes!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 253731.ece

British and Irish anti-piracy experts rescued - after pirates attack
The three security guards board a helicopter to leave the French frigate Nivose after jumping overboard when their vessel was attacked by pirates

Martin Fletcher
Two British and one Irish security guard were plucked from the sea by a military helicopter yesterday after they jumped from a tanker seized by pirates off Somalia, leaving behind more than two dozen crew members.

Their decision to abandon the vessel that their company was paid handsomely to protect attracted some criticism. One Western aid official in the region told The Times that after calls for commercial vessels to hire security guards, it was “somewhat ironic that they jump overboard to save themselves”.

Their British employer, however, insisted that the three former soldiers were heroes who had resisted a sustained attack by heavily armed pirates with great courage and would have been killed if they had stayed any longer. “They were unarmed. They had no other option. As far as I’m concerned they deserve a medal,” said Nick Davis, a former British Army pilot who runs AntiPiracy Maritime Security Solutions (APMSS) out of Poole, Dorset. Mr Davis said his guards were unarmed because it was almost impossible to carry firearms through Customs and on to vessels in most countries, and because ships with cargoes of chemicals or gas seldom allowed weapons on board. The ship concerned, the Liberian-flagged tanker the Biscaglia, was carrying a cargo of palm oil.

The attack happened early yesterday as the tanker was sailing through the Gulf of Aden from India to Rotterdam. At 7.48am the captain sent out a distress call, which was relayed to the Nivose, a French frigate that is part of the Western naval task force protecting commercial shipping from Somalia’s ever-bolder pirates.

‘Money plizz,’ says Somali Cap’n Jack Sparrow
Pirates: despicable, desperate and daring
China locates missing billionaire

The Nivose dispatched a helicopter but by the time it arrived six pirates had already seized the Biscaglia.

“There were three members of the crew on the roof [of the ship],” said Fre-deric Karakaya, the helicopter pilot. “They were hiding and signalled to us. They were spotted, and jumped into the water. We dropped a coloured marker, then gave their position to a Lynx [helicopter] which winched them aboard.”

The three unnamed guards, wearing baseball caps and lifejackets, were deposited on the Nivose and later transferred to another French naval vessel, the Jean de Vienne. They were uninjured. At least 27 crew members – 25 Indians and two Bangladeshis – were being held hostage on board the Biscaglia.

APMSS provides three-man teams of former soldiers to protect commercial vessels and in recent weeks demand for its services has soared. It has teams on ten ships off Somalia – each costing £14,000 for three days.

Mr Davis defended the actions of his team. He said they had been attacked by six pirates in a high-speed skiff armed with AK47s and rocket-propelled grenades.

He said the two former marines and a former paratroop held them off for about 40 minutes – long enough for the crew to send out a distress call and seek safety below deck.

They fired water cannon at the pirates and zigzagged the vessel. They also used a long-range accoustic device that fires laser-like beams of excruciatingly painful sound at attackers. They beat off three or four attacks but the pirates then began firing RPGs at the laser operator. Mr Davis said the pirates continued to shoot at the security guards after boarding the ship and that the three had no choice but to abandon the vessel.

The pirates then fired on them while they were in the water, and tried to run them down in the hijacked vessel. “They did what they felt they had to do to save their lives and the lives of the crew,” said Mr Davis, 37.

TheBiscaglia is the 97th vessel to be attacked this year in the waters off Somalia, where Islamist insurgents are fighting a weak, Western-backed Government. At least 15 ships, and more than 300 crew members, are being held for ransom.

Yesterday pirates released a Greek-owned cargo ship, the Centauri, which they captured on September 18. The crew of 25 Filipinos was unharmed. It was unclear whether the owners paid a ransom. The ships still being held include the Sirius Star, a giant tanker carrying two million barrels of oil that was seized on November 15. Its captors have warned of “disastrous consequences” if its Saudi owners do not pay a $25 million (£16 million) ransom by tomorrow.
Last edited by Philip on 29 Nov 2008 14:52, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22499
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby chetak » 29 Nov 2008 14:46

Philip wrote:"They deserve a medal" for fleeing to live and ...flee another day! So much for these terror "expats",not experts! For results,call in the IN.I ask the question.After the suicide attack on the USS Cole,would any US or wstern warshipwarship allow a suspicious unknown vessel which refuses to stop or be searched at night,with two small speedboats under tow,whose crews saunter above deck waving and firing their weapons at the Tabar without an immediate respone.?


OT
Philip ji,
Good call on the srilankan thread.
Appreciate the hawk eye.

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 30 Nov 2008 02:56

Rahul M wrote:Not disbelieving that the ship was attacked. But I don't think the original crew was on-board at the time.

Then where are they? And why would the survivor lie? He has nothing to gain from it.
Rahul M wrote:hard to believe that the fishing crew were on-board and the pirates chose to adopt a hostile stance against a warship when they could have prevented any action by Tabar by just announcing that they had hostages.
nobody is that stupid.

Been done before. They almost certainly assumed Tabar knew they had the crew aboard. They had hijacked a vessel: the reasonable assumption for them to make when challenged by Tabar was that Tabar was there because it knew of the hijacking. A bit like two louts who used to live near me, who were arrested when they went through a red light to escape from a police car - not realising that the police didn't know until after arresting them (for jumping the red light & then driving dangerously while trying to escape) that they'd stolen the car . . . . the theft hadn't yet been reported :D Was there a conversation in which Tabar told them "We know nothing of any hijacking, we're after you because you resemble a pirate mother ship"? I doubt it . . .

I think you've fallen into the trap of seeing it from the POV of the crew of Tabar, & forgotten that the pirates had a different POV. They knew things Tabars captain did not (though he should have been told: need to sort out the IMB link), & did not know what information he had, or what he thought. They acted on false assumptions, as did Tabar, & you're now making the same mistake as both. It's very easy to do, & very common indeed, e.g. the farcical misunderstandings which led to the Falklands War, where each side disastrously miscalculated what the other would do, because each assumed the other had knowledge which it lacked: the Argentineans thought the British government understood the significance of Argentinean actions & was responding to them, while the British government had no idea of Argentinean thinking, & did what it did for its own reasons, which it thought perfectly clear, & understood by everyone.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17005
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Rahul M » 30 Nov 2008 03:57

Paul, I don't agree at all.

let's assume that the pirates thought Tabar knew about the hijacking and was acting accordingly.

That DOES NOT preclude them from trying to use the hostages as shields, if present.
In fact, it would be eminently reasonable to assume that that's exactly what they would do, given that taking crew hostage is their accepted signature.

They certainly won't have tried to threaten a warship when the obvious way out was staring them in the face.

the likely scenario:
this particular vessel was a perfect candidate for a mother-ship and the pirates had evacuated the crew (or murdered them) and were using the vessel at the time purely as a mother-ship.

vasu_ray
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 01:06

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby vasu_ray » 30 Nov 2008 13:23

Moving on, currently 25 indian crew men are held hostage, do we know of a plan to rescue them or its the shipping company's responsibility, pay ransom? after their security jumped ship, and escorted away, why haven't the navies operating in that region dare a rescue op for the rest of the crew? the last question is for you Paul. The ship hasn't reached the Somalia coast at that point.

With a 'blue water navy' that we have, how long would it take to get a chopper or a sub? to silently board the ship?

do we have any small sub that can be air dropped into the ocean from say a IL 76 cargo bay, like a torpedo and then be boarded by 2 dozen MARCOS after that? we need more gizmos that could have helped the special forces in Mumbai

Is there a DRDO wing for unconventional weaponry? and no I am not a fan of Bond.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20719
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2008 19:04

Tx Chetak.Vigilaiince is the need of the hour.I now wonder whether the IN will keep too many assets in anti-piracy duties,as the heat rises after the handiwork of the "Bombay Butchers" from Pak.The Pakis have already staretd warning India and the US that they'll rdeploy troops from the Afghan front to the east.It looks like a masterplan drawn up by the infamous "Commando of Kargil",trying once again to make up fro his inglorious defeat through his handpicked successor,Gen."Kill-any".

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3421
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Aditya G » 30 Nov 2008 21:00

Thanks Raja, so post 1971 there have been three such events including Op Cactus. One should note that all three involve terrorists/pirates.

Raja Bose wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Congrats to the Nausena! Operations like this will remind the people that the armed forces are there to protect their freedom away from own soil! 8)

Trivia junkie in me asks is the first time since '71 we have sunk another vessel in anger? Did we strike any LTTE boats in Op Pawan?


Marcos (called IMSF back then iirc) blew up LTTE craft in their docks after infiltrating in rafts...Lt. Arvind Singh got the MVC during one of those actions.

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 01 Dec 2008 19:06

Rahul M wrote:the likely scenario:
this particular vessel was a perfect candidate for a mother-ship and the pirates had evacuated the crew (or murdered them) and were using the vessel at the time purely as a mother-ship.

Evidence!

You are talking about "likely scenarios", & probabilities, & trying to analyse the pirates behaviours in terms of what you consider logical. We know (not speculate, not consider likely) that other pirates, in similar situations, with the crew aboard the ship, alive and unharmed, have behaved in the same way. And it has succeeded. The naval ship has backed off, rather than risk the hostages. What you consider unlikely, illogical, & unreasonable, has happened.

Your reasoning is logical, but it is based upon false (& proven to be so) assumptions about the pirates behaviour. Logic requires a sound factual basis to give correct results.

What we know (not speculate, not assume) is that one crewman survived. He has been reported as saying said (& you have not given any reason why he should lie) that the other crew were alive & aboard the ship at the time it encountered the INS Tabar., that some were killed & injured in the ensuing fighting, & a few (including him) escaped & jumped overboard.

HariC
BRFite
Posts: 358
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby HariC » 01 Dec 2008 19:28

Yes too many assumptions on evacuating passengers.

Looking at both sides of the argument - The one with the least assumptions will stand out to be the most realistic

Raja Bose
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19478
Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Raja Bose » 02 Dec 2008 02:20

Shivani wrote:
Prem wrote:Fox reporting Somalian pirates has captured an Indian Ship carrying chemicals and 25 members of its crew.


British and Irish anti-piracy experts rescued - after pirates attack

The Times wrote:November 28, 2008

Image



I think these guys just cut and ran....if they just escaped how come only they escaped while not one person of the crew managed to escape with them. So much for so-called highly trained elite british security experts. :roll: The only thing they can do is stare down their nose and talk how super-duper their SAS is and how they can take on anybody...typical big mouth british.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3826
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby hnair » 02 Dec 2008 03:14

- No hostage taker will fire at a big ass warship if they have a few hostages. They might fire in the air but when the ship is not backing off, they will scramble to show a hostage or two on deck. No evidence to the contrary exists from neutral, non-pirate, non-western sources. :)
- why dint the pirates bring up atleast one hostage on top of the deck? Most air/land hijacks had such rituals. I would think it is easier on a smaller boat to kick a crew member on to the open deck for Tabar to see.
- Why not mention about hostages over the radio/whatever communication device they used to moon at Tabar?


Here are some more inferences (false ones, of course! 8) ):
- Crew (and owner) was moonlighting for the pirates in exchange for a percentage of loot. high risk but higher income. And the owner has plausible deniability with a "pirates shoved AK47 up my nose" story.
- Tabar was fired on by pirates because they **never** had any valuable hostages to show. Only a mama ship with its crew on lease.
- Crew jumped ship when things got out of hand.
- And then the brand new story by Thai owners came at a good time: Hot questions being asked by mango-man in the western streets about the point of flat radar panels mounted on pricey ships and the shipyards' love for his tax money.
- Boils down to Singha: we need better fiction writers in OUR media.

It is their (pirates + their Thai lessor + Western "sources") version against ours. Unfortunately for some, the timing of the story/plan was wrong. Thai govt had more serious stuff to deal with at home and they refused to play the possum/victim.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54413
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 04:59

Are some members supporting piracy? Why the continued support for the Sirichai or what ever story? Is the POV that IN is not telling the truth?

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby PaulJI » 02 Dec 2008 19:34

ramana wrote:Are some members supporting piracy? Why the continued support for the Sirichai or what ever story? Is the POV that IN is not telling the truth?

This is (mostly - apart from some chauvinism) a reasoned discussion, dealing with possible errors in interpretation of a situation, & what those errors can lead to. The only accusations of lying here have been from those who claim that the fishing company, & the surviving crewman, are lying, & lard those accusations with further accusations (unsupported by any evidence), that they were involved in piracy.

HariC
BRFite
Posts: 358
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby HariC » 02 Dec 2008 19:55

ramana wrote:Are some members supporting piracy? Why the continued support for the Sirichai or what ever story? Is the POV that IN is not telling the truth?


just because some of the posters (including me) have doubts here about where the hostages are does not mean they/we are traitors or supporters of piracy. :roll:

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17005
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Rahul M » 02 Dec 2008 20:46

PaulJI wrote:
Rahul M wrote: We know (not speculate, not consider likely) that other pirates, in similar situations, with the crew aboard the ship, alive and unharmed, have behaved in the same way. And it has succeeded. The naval ship has backed off, rather than risk the hostages. What you consider unlikely, illogical, & unreasonable, has happened.

Your reasoning is logical, but it is based upon false (& proven to be so) assumptions about the pirates behaviour. Logic requires a sound factual basis to give correct results.

since my knowledge of piracy isn't as vast could you oblige with a link ? :)
thanks.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2958
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby tsarkar » 02 Dec 2008 22:25

Paul – I’m not sure whether you’ve read my earlier posts, so will jot down facts that will hold good in any court of law.

The pirates were at the helm and Thai sovereignty had ceased. For all legal purposes, it was a pirate ship. Period.

Tabar CO/crew made best possible efforts to identify the ship and occupants. The original intent was to board and inspect the ship. However boarding was made impossible given the RPG threat to helicopters and Geminis. Given that it is not possible for any ship/crew to subscribe to every intelligence source/communication channel at any specific point of time, the identification efforts made by Tabar CO/crew was reasonably sufficient.

On demonstrated hostile intent and reasonable identification, the ship was engaged. The loss of lives is regrettable; however do note in WWII, British & US ships & submarines sank German & Japanese ships carrying British & US PoWs killing their own citizens. None were censured.

Assume bank robbers steal your car, gag and bind you and keep you in the trunk. On being confronted by cops, they wave their guns and threaten to shoot. The cops decide to shoot to take down the criminals, not knowing you’re bound and gagged in the trunk, and you get killed in the process. The cops cannot be charged for your murder, as despite their best efforts, they couldn’t have known you were in the trunk.

Sometimes you have to shoot to prevent criminals run amok across town or the seas. The current coalition policy of not engaging because of avoiding intangible implications (hoping pirates wont attack the crew) is just emboldening the pirates.

There is a good old English saying, "you cannot make omlettes without breaking the eggs". I intend no disrespect to Thai crewmen who died in the incident, however sometimes, that's just the way things are.

HariC
BRFite
Posts: 358
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby HariC » 02 Dec 2008 22:35

Assume bank robbers steal your car, gag and bind you and keep you in the trunk. On being confronted by cops, they wave their guns and threaten to shoot. The cops decide to shoot to take down the criminals, not knowing you’re bound and gagged in the trunk, and you get killed in the process. The cops cannot be charged for your murder, as despite their best efforts, they couldn’t have known you were in the trunk.


Thats a great analogy. Extending it over here - Paul is arguing that the bank robbers may have kept the hostages in the trunk, while Rahul M is saying the hostage has probably been shot and and dumped at the earlier scene of crime, and ramana is saying that Paul is supporting the bank robbers for implying the dead hostage was in the trunk . The police do not know where the dead hostage is because the car with bankrobbers and (possibly) the dead hostage has veered off the bridge and fell into the water never to be recovered. :D

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Dec 2008 22:40

Rahul M wrote:
PaulJI wrote:
Rahul M wrote: We know (not speculate, not consider likely) that other pirates, in similar situations, with the crew aboard the ship, alive and unharmed, have behaved in the same way. And it has succeeded. The naval ship has backed off, rather than risk the hostages. What you consider unlikely, illogical, & unreasonable, has happened.

Your reasoning is logical, but it is based upon false (& proven to be so) assumptions about the pirates behaviour. Logic requires a sound factual basis to give correct results.

since my knowledge of piracy isn't as vast could you oblige with a link ? :)
thanks.


not read Asterix or what?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54413
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2008 02:35

x-posted....
Op-ed in Pioneer, 4 Dec., 2008

Neglect the Navy at own peril

Mukund B Kunte

We erroneously believed that the fog over peace has descended. But after 26/11, our first naval priority must be to increase security on high seas and secure our coastline

The day the world changed” read the newspaper headlines following the event of September 11, 2001 and it quickly became accepted wisdom that the nature of war against terror had altered. Now, the lessons from November 26, 2008 are: Let’s put behind all thoughts and political slogans on secularism and fundamentalism, pseudo or otherwise, and unitedly get on with nationalism whatever the colour of political parties and more specifically irrespective of the complexion of coalitions which are here to stay. Remember, after 9/11 there was an extraordinary fervour in the United States with the fluttering of only one flag, the ‘Stars & Stripes’.

This year’s Navy Day on fourth December couldn’t have been more fittingly heralded than by what happened in the north Indian Ocean, more specifically in the Gulf of Aden, with the sinking of a pirate ship by INS Tabar. Thanks to Somali pirates, the Government has finally been convinced about the merits of a proactive, not just a flag showing, naval diplomacy.

Then, within days of that episode, the Navy was in the news for rounding off a suspected craft in the Arabian sea off Bombay.

Unfortunately, the service went somewhat ‘ballistic’ following the terrorist attacks on November 26. While the NSG Commandos were engaged in a fierce encounter, the elite Marine Commandos (MARCOS), which are normally under wraps, narrated their entire operation outside in front of the media and even revealed some tactics, forgetting its traditional role.

In the age of information technology the greatest anachronism undoubtedly is a ‘silent service’. If you are not on television you hardly exist to the people whose support you need. Sadly, carried away by a 24x7 news channel, the Navy and the Army went on sideshows and publicity hunts, inviting an ugly spot on themselves.

Let that be; because to err is indeed human!

But let’s just look at what a young Navy blogger, Yogesh Athavie, on a sister ship of INS Tabar, hit on this ‘wardroom banter’ on the internet, between British Naval officers: “Bravo Zulu to the Indian Navy” (in naval signalese it means ‘well done’). Their action highlights the lack of decisive action and robust international leadership by the UK — and by implication, the Royal Navy — for what we have become. Our apparent indecision in dealing with piracy much earlier will no doubt be read by our rivals — potential enemies — as political weakness leading to vulnerability.

“Everyone will agree that the Indian Navy has once again done its job. I am sure that they would have done it in the confidence that their actions would be supported by those in power. One consolation for us is that the Indian Navy is to some extent more royal than the British Royal Navy, having taken the best of our traditions and added a few of their own. As I never tire of saying, India should be a close ally in these troubled waters and for the task at hand they have lots more ships and people to do the job than we do. No reason at all why an Indian Admiral should not be commanding an allied anti-piracy task group in this area — in fact, every reason that he should.”

That from an ‘old Empire’ hand. Thank heavens, that true to Jawaharlal Nehru’s vision, the Indian Navy is a well-rounded, three dimensional force composed of several war vessels indigenously built in our own shipyards in Mumbai, Kolkata, Goa and now in Cochin, where an Air Defence ship, the largest warship in a third world, country is under construction.

Our first Prime Minister famously said, “To be secure on land, we must be supreme at sea.” The recent events vividly underscore those words. In fact, as Sergi Gorshkov, heading the Soviet Navy for a quarter of a century, used to constantly remind his Politbureau that the navy is an ‘instrument of State Policy’.

We erroneously believed that the fog over peace has descended. On the contrary, in light of 26/11, we have to pull up our socks nationally, and the first naval priority must be the safe passage of our shipping on the high seas and making our coastal waters safe. The significance of the sea in military and commercial matters changed in the last century but it did not diminish. The only certain forecast for the next 100 years is that the sea will still cover two-thirds of the earth’s surface and we, therefore, can neglect our Navy at our own peril.

-- The writer is Former Commodore of Indian Navy.

Arya Sumantra
BRFite
Posts: 558
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 11:47
Location: Deep Freezer

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Arya Sumantra » 04 Dec 2008 03:48

PaulJI wrote:
ramana wrote:Are some members supporting piracy? Why the continued support for the Sirichai or what ever story? Is the POV that IN is not telling the truth?

This is (mostly - apart from some chauvinism) a reasoned discussion, dealing with possible errors in interpretation of a situation, & what those errors can lead to. The only accusations of lying here have been from those who claim that the fishing company, & the surviving crewman, are lying, & lard those accusations with further accusations (unsupported by any evidence), that they were involved in piracy.


Perhaps people still expect the pirates to sport a black flag with a skull and bones in a cross to demarcate themselves. And it is only after spotting such ships should a navy bring them down:twisted:. Todays pirates use the shield of human rights and leftist liberals (and probably give them a cut) to defend themselves by masquerading as merchant vessels or fishing trawlers registered in unknown islands that spring forth from nowhere in pacific ocean.
A fishing trawler finds it economically viable to go all the way from Thailand to Somalia just to catch "fish". The trawler though owned by a Thai is registered in Kiribati islands. Just like those online illegal businesses which operate out of similar god forsaken island countries with little or no legislations to prosecute them. What is not fishy about such vessels being hand-in-glove with the pirates? Didn't LTTE use vessels registered in countries like Panama for its purposes? Any discussion which recommends surrender of common sense and pragmatism to a suicidally liberal Human rights type of thinking cannot be a "reasoned" discussion.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17005
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Rahul M » 04 Dec 2008 08:23

Lalmohan wrote:......................
not read Asterix or what?

oops ! I almost forgot ! :D

Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership

Postby Gerard » 05 Dec 2008 05:50

PLA General: We Should Fight Pirates
A Chinese general has called for the country's navy to join the fight against Somali pirates, saying the mission would boost China's international stature and give its sailors valuable experience in fighting open ocean combat operations far from their home ports.


Danish Warship Rescues Somali Pirates Lost at Sea in Aden Bay

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1963
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 13 Dec 2008 16:59

Indian Navy repulses attack on ship off Somalia

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Navy ... 832886.cms

Navy warship on Saturday repulsed an attack on a merchant vessel in the Gulf of Aden and
nabbed 23 Somali and Yemeni sea brigands

Mods: Please unlock the Tabar thread & move it there

kidoman
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 07 May 2008 09:55
Location: Temple City,Kalinga
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kidoman » 13 Dec 2008 17:03

AdityaM wrote:Indian Navy repulses attack on ship off Somalia

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Navy ... 832886.cms

Navy warship on Saturday repulsed an attack on a merchant vessel in the Gulf of Aden and
nabbed 23 Somali and Yemeni sea brigands


Gr8 job by our navy..Keep it up..

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1651
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 13 Dec 2008 17:59

AdityaM wrote:Indian Navy repulses attack on ship off Somalia

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Navy ... 832886.cms


awesome news. at least someone is doing the right thing instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching all show.

But this time when IN flag showed up on scene, both (Merchant ship as well as pirates) might have shuddered with cold fear. IN's "kill-all" policy seems to be working (just kiddn :mrgreen: )

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1974
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 13 Dec 2008 18:24

Apprehension of Pirate Vessel IN GULF OF ADEN BY INDIAN NAVAL SHIP - PIB
INS Mysore is currently in the Gulf of Aden for Anti-Piracy Patrol Operations which are being conducted under the control of the Western Naval Command. Whilst escorting merchant vessels in the Gulf of Aden, the ship received a distress call on MMB Channel 16 from MV Gibe (Ethiopian Flag) at about 1100 hours on 13 Dec 08. MV Gibe reported that she was under attack by two boats closing her and firing small arms. MV Gibe opened retaliatory fire with small arms that were held onboard the vessel. The position reported by the merchant vessel was 13 nautical miles from Mysore at that time. The ship altered course to close MV Gibe and also launched her integral armed helicopter.

On sighting the helicopter and Mysore, the boats disengaged from MV Gibe and attempted escape. Mysore closed the vessels and ordered them to stop. The larger boat was a dhow was of green colour and 8-10m in length. It had taken the second smaller boat (a skiff) under tow. Subsequently, the name of the dhow was identified as 'Salahaddin', Hull No 758(2).

The dhow was boarded at 1230h by the ship's Marine Commandos and a search carried out. 23 personnel (12 Somali and 11 Yemeni) surrendered on boarding. The search of dhow revealed a substantial cache of arms and equipment, including seven AK-47 and three other automatic rifles, along with thirteen loaded magazines; a rocket-propelled grenade-launcher along with rockets, cartridges and grenades; as many as three Outboard Motors (OBMs), a GPS Receiver, etcetera.

The personnel, arms, ammunition and equipment have been taken into custody by INS Mysore and will be handed over to appropriate authorities ashore and the ship will return to her patrol-duties.


Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1651
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Navy anti-piracy ops.

Postby Sid » 13 Dec 2008 19:38



notice in the pictures... here too MARCOS are wearing the same green camo they used in Taj operations.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A Sharma, chola, LakshmanPST, ssaravanan, veejey and 48 guests