Artillery Discussion Thread

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Aug 2010 17:28

Just to increase fell good factor, it was conveyed that if there is not any bureaucratic/political wrangleness DRDO will complete the Artillery project in record time.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 25 Aug 2010 18:41

VinodTK wrote:'An Indian gun will bypass difficult trials'

Business Standard has reported (July 29, “155 mm gun purchase: DRDO enters the fray”) that DRDO is joining hands with a private sector company to develop and manufacture an Indian gun. Now, DRDO Director General V K Saraswat has explained the rationale for the DRDO decision. He says that, amongst the foreign guns on offer, there is no clear winner. And given the cutthroat nature of competition for this Rs 8,000-crore contract for 1,580 guns, a drumbeat of corruption allegations will keep derailing any decision.

Saraswat told Business Standard, “The differences (between competing guns) are minuscule and people would like to exploit those minuscule differences… and (the defence ministry’s) life becomes more difficult. The (acquisition) process is today back to zero. This is not the first time it has come to zero; this has happened before… So, it is better to develop your own system.”

The key here would be the private sector partner who can bypass the red tape in DRDO and hire the best brains. Just might work though since this would be first attempt would need to give them some leeway with the time frame. But where would that leave the army ?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Aug 2010 10:26

This is the state-of-the-art in artillery: 150 km range, rocket-assisted, precision guided 155mm shells.

See http://www.spacewar.com/news/miltech-05l.html

There are also ramjet-assisted shells being developed - http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004armaments/ ... n_COOP.pdf

I'm sure they would be far cheaper than a Brahmos missile. We need to stockpile some 100,000 of these.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2010 10:40

what kind of cannon length and charge are they using to get these huge ranges?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 01 Sep 2010 14:39

Singha wrote:what kind of cannon length and charge are they using to get these huge ranges?

It would probably be pretty similar to a normal shell as far as the launch phase is concerned. The difference is in the rocket / ramjet propulsion and the precision guidance.

AnuragK · Post by **AnuragK** » 02 Sep 2010 01:49

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/ba ... -ring.html

Why this half-hearted step? Might just as well also blacklist BAe Land Sytems for having bought out SAAB Bofors and also the Russian gun suppliers for not having supplied proper gun ammunition in the distant past and then just Tweedledum and Tweedledee with DRDO as the black crow.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 02 Sep 2010 01:56

^^
I was under the impression the last tender got cancelled because it would have left BAe as the only bid after STK got blacklisted. Who do they expect to participate in the new tender apart from BAe? One of the eastern European companies? I thought Rheinmetall's bid was disqualified (for their tie up with Denel) and not exactly blacklisted?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Sep 2010 04:23

New RFP Expected For Indian Wheeled Guns
Aviation Week

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2010 04:34

the eternal dharma chakra spins one more revolution. RWG-52 should be named Ganesha - head of the Pzh2000, body of the old Denel G6-52 wheeled gun

someone took a video of it on delhi-jaipur highway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBOHTx08 ... r_embedded

*beats head* - if we wanted such a system why didnt we buy from Denel like 10 years go?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 02 Sep 2010 05:04

if we wanted such a system why didnt we buy from Denel like 10 years go

Simple, by blacklisting Denel and leaving our artillery forces naked and exposed we taught Denel not to mess with us. Don't worry. There will always be an interim gun from Albania or Croatia or some other paragon of defense technology the IA can acquire before finally importing a gun from some private western company.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Sep 2010 09:36

Juggi G wrote:New RFP Expected For Indian Wheeled Guns
Aviation Week

My prediction: another round of trials and cancellations. After that, panic stories of IA being artillery nude in the DDM ( its true, of course) and then UPA-II GoI which will be in the last days of its term ( end of the 5th year and elections approaching) will sign a FMS with US for the guns.

End of story since deals signed with US stay on irrespective of party in power unlike other deals like Denel etc...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Sep 2010 15:18

Why are the OFB / DRDO not coming up with an Indian design, or even proposing one. Is a 155 mm arty beyond Indian capabilities. That foreign defense companies need to be subsidized.

Is it so challenging that India should not even dare to try and design a home made 155 MM piece. That RFP has to issued and then we proceed to black list the prospective vendor.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Sep 2010 16:40

Murky Competitions for Indian Howitzer Orders May End Soon… Or Not
DID

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Sep 2010 16:42

RWG-52 and RTG-52 for India's Artillery Modernization Programme

Rheinmetall Global Leader in Large-Calibre Gun Technology

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Sep 2010 19:58

Juggi G, thank you for posting that link. It helps to clarify the 6X6 option offered by the German Company.

How I wish and pray and hope that these systems (RWG-52 and RTG-52), along with FH77B05 from BAe make it into Indian Army.

BTW, here is a link to the 6X6 RWG-52 - someone took a video for couple of seconds when the system was in India for trials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBOHTx08 ... r_embedded

And it seems that the RTG-52 may cost less than the PzH 2000....it being a derived system from this gun system.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Sep 2010 21:40

I am past caring. too many times my heart has been broken when I favoured one gun over another

I just want one of the modern 155mm guns in large numbers today!!!!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 03 Sep 2010 01:00

rohitvats, Sie re Willkommen !

My Artillery Favourites are the same as yours. My Ardent Wish that Only they make it into the Indian Army.
RWG-52
RTG-52
FH-77B05

& EuroFighter as the MRCA.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 03 Sep 2010 01:00

Bofors Back in Artillery Race
The Telegraph - Calcutta

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Sep 2010 01:37

If the media wants to do the army and the country a whole lot of good for a change, they should stop referring to the BAE FH-77B05 gun as "Bofors". That name has too much stigma attached to it in India. Even a clean deal (if it ever happens) will be looked upon suspiciously just because it is "Bofors".

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Sep 2010 02:13

just look at the fantastic bofors gunpicture in the article

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Sep 2010 03:43

^^

Behold! the new "Bofors"

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 01:52

nachiket wrote:^^

Behold! the new "Bofors"

I know I have asked this before but it was some time ago.

Does the average Indian voter (grown up) get a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the word "Bofors"?

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 04 Sep 2010 03:16

Wickberg wrote:I know I have asked this before but it was some time ago.
Does the average Indian voter (grown up) get a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the word "Bofors"?

I don't think so. Bofors may have been a political issue few decades back, but things have changed quite a lot since then. Particularly after the Kargil war, in which Bofors guns received lot of positive publicity. But in India, once you become a political untouchable, you tend to remain so for a long-long time.

Our political system is by and large still very conservative, and is full of politicians, who would prefer riding on populist politics rather than taking tough decisions in the larger interest of the nation. Unfortunately the ruling party at the moment is under the fear that if Bofors wins the deal, then the opposition may dig old graves, thereby, putting them into a back foot. Moreover, they get no Brownie points from the voters for a speedy decision in this deal. So, from the perspective of the ruling party, the risk involved in this deal comfortably supersedes the benefits. Hence, you see this dilly delaying.

PS: This is my personal opinion.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Sep 2010 06:54

other than being bofors bogey, what exactly was wrong with Archer that RWG52 can do?
per leaked reports in blogs it outperformed the competition (atmos et al)

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 08:08

Singha wrote:other than being bofors bogey, what exactly was wrong with Archer that RWG52 can do?
per leaked reports in blogs it outperformed the competition (atmos et al)

So there is a "bofors bogey"? Even with the ordinary Indian?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Sep 2010 12:04

Not with the mango Indian. But seems to be for the Indian Elites. It is not just with Bofors but with the words 155 mm arty piece.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 04 Sep 2010 12:37

Amazing facts by Shekhar Gupta in today's indian express article:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/unite ... e/677015/2

And we, meanwhile, cannot decide to buy an artillery gun for our army in 23 years, have critical defence acquisitions blocked because the director of the CBI produced a list of charges against certain suppliers and has not yet backed it even with an FIR. And do you want to know how scandalous this is? The omnipotent CBI chief, modern-day Indian equivalent of Stalin’s infamous hatchet-man Beria (show me the man, I will give you the crime), gave these charges not even on his agency’s letterhead but on a plain piece of paper and, most breathtaking of all, did not even sign it. And yet the government, and the mighty Cabinet Committee on Security, have not been able to toss aside this incredible spanner.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Sep 2010 14:56

Wickberg wrote:
Singha wrote:other than being bofors bogey, what exactly was wrong with Archer that RWG52 can do?
per leaked reports in blogs it outperformed the competition (atmos et al)
So there is a "bofors bogey"? Even with the ordinary Indian?

There are some political parties who want to keep that issue alive so they can use it as a leverage against the ruling party. The ruling party realises this and cannot be seen walking into a "trap" by issuing an order with these rumours/plain paper allegations of kickbacks around here.

Both sides are acting blind ior are really oblivious to the seriousness of the delay.

JMT

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Sep 2010 15:03

The only way out of this mess is to start an all out effort to design an indiginous 155 mm piece. But the powers that be, for reasons best known to them selves, will not even consider it.

Are the challanges so insurmountable that they should not even try to overcome it.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 19:46

Pratyush wrote:The only way out of this mess is to start an all out effort to design an indiginous 155 mm piece. But the powers that be, for reasons best known to them selves, will not even consider it.

Are the challanges so insurmountable that they should not even try to overcome it.

Despite what many thinks producing modern artillery isn´t that easy. Just look at the Finnish GH 52 that they sold to Egypt. And Finland has long tradition in designing artillery...

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 04 Sep 2010 22:35

Despite what many thinks producing modern artillery isn´t that easy.

It may not be easy but it isn't impossible. It just has to be done step by step. Don't expect a Archer or Atmos in the first place. the aim should be to produce a simple 155/52 gun, no fancy features. In the next step try adding mobility, let it evolve may be into Self Propelled Guns. Then try a variant having reduced weight like the M777.
let us remember that the Archers & Light Howitzers we see today are an evolved form of previous products. If we make a concerted effort we can do it.
JMT

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Sep 2010 22:58

Ajatshatru wrote:Wickberg wrote:
Despite what many thinks producing modern artillery isn´t that easy.
And your point being? Since, according to you, producing them is not easy, India should then not even try to locally design and manufacture them (thus keep buying it from abroad till Kingdom come)?

I guess what he means is, one must not put all their eggs in one basket, since we know how fussy the Army can get Re: Arjun. Especially now, when things are so dire as regards the Art'y guns.

gogna · Post by **gogna** » 05 Sep 2010 00:09

Wickberg wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^

I know I have asked this before but it was some time ago.

Does the average Indian voter (grown up) get a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the word "Bofors"?

This is so sad, our forces are lacking decent firepower even today thanx to corrupt prime minister nearly 20 year ago.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Sep 2010 01:47

Bofors = Kargil = AWESOME = KICKPUKI BUTT!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Sep 2010 02:20

we should atleast produce the towed artillery indigenously.It shouldn't be that tough especially if we are able to reverse engineer the Bofors itself.

Also in order to foster competition you can invite the private companies to develop the product.It was done recently for developing the future armored vehicle and I do not see any reason why it cannot be done again.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Sep 2010 11:02

Ashu wrote:
Despite what many thinks producing modern artillery isn´t that easy.
It may not be easy but it isn't impossible. It just has to be done step by step. Don't expect a Archer or Atmos in the first place. the aim should be to produce a simple 155/52 gun, no fancy features. In the next step try adding mobility, let it evolve may be into Self Propelled Guns. Then try a variant having reduced weight like the M777.
let us remember that the Archers & Light Howitzers we see today are an evolved form of previous products. If we make a concerted effort we can do it.
JMT

Do you think the IA will accept anything less than the gold plated standard seen in all the brochures of the current howitzers?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Sep 2010 12:50

^^They will have to if nothing else is available.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Sep 2010 20:41

^^ Dunno about that since the foreign gold plated howitzers are always like a low lying fruit and will be dangled to ensure that IA looks only towards it by the vendors ( different matter that the netas will never allow that to happen). So, the IA will always be in a catch-22 of do i go for inferior desi or wait some time since neta has promised to get the foreign maal this time around ( neat will of course go back on his word later)!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2010 20:46

except for the panda, nobody gains by it - without a deal being signed the foreign vendors and local 'leaders' cannot make money. the IA doesnt get the guns.
drdo gets no chance to try and do something about it.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Sep 2010 22:21

This sorry state of affairs is thanks to our defence services - IAF cannot decide on AJT/MRCA, IN cannot decide on submarines it wants and IA well it cannot get over its foreign connections.

Even if we bought the worst gun of the lot fielded for the trials, we would still have something to fight with. I think we need to start with designing catapults and trebuchets for IA.