International Naval News & Discussion

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Austin
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2012 11:34

Probably yes I think the ships of 80's and 90's will face block obsolescence in the coming decade some of the capital ships like the Kirov and Kuznetsov class will under go modernisation others will retire next decade,

The good thing for them is by end of this decade they will get 51 new ships of different class which will take care of some of the block obsolense RuN will face , all said and done RuN is receiving massive funding over other service so it will get better then what it was in 2 decades.

Here is picture of 2nd Borei class named Alexandr Nevksi before launch

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7577/s ... nderne.jpg

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2012 17:01

Laying down of 4th submarine of Borei Class 955A , Prince Vladmir

http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/87446.html

gives good idea of the thickness of pressure hull.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby siddharth » 14 Aug 2012 21:16

Austin wrote:Probably yes I think the ships of 80's and 90's will face block obsolescence in the coming decade some of the capital ships like the Kirov and Kuznetsov class will under go modernisation others will retire next decade,

The good thing for them is by end of this decade they will get 51 new ships of different class which will take care of some of the block obsolense RuN will face , all said and done RuN is receiving massive funding over other service so it will get better then what it was in 2 decades.

Here is picture of 2nd Borei class named Alexandr Nevksi before launch

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7577/s ... nderne.jpg


There's another sub to the right of the Borei. Oscar class??

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2012 22:18

siddharth wrote:There's another sub to the right of the Borei. Oscar class??


Yes thats the unfinished Oscar-2 Belgorod now it being reconfigured and built as special purpose submarine

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2012 22:22

Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say

A Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine armed with long-range cruise missiles operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico for several weeks and its travel in strategic U.S. waters was only confirmed after it left the region, the Washington Free Beacon has learned.

It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.

The stealth underwater incursion in the Gulf took place at the same time Russian strategic bombers made incursions into restricted U.S. airspace near Alaska and California in June and July, and highlights a growing military assertiveness by Moscow.

The submarine patrol also exposed what U.S. officials said were deficiencies in U.S. anti-submarine warfare capabilities—forces that are facing cuts under the Obama administration’s plan to reduce defense spending by $487 billion over the next 10 years.

The Navy is in charge of detecting submarines, especially those that sail near U.S. nuclear missile submarines, and uses undersea sensors and satellites to locate and track them.

The fact that the Akula was not detected in the Gulf is cause for concern, U.S. officials said.

The officials who are familiar with reports of the submarine patrol in the Gulf of Mexico said the vessel was a nuclear-powered Akula-class attack submarine, one of Russia’s quietest submarines.

A Navy spokeswoman declined to comment.

One official said the Akula operated without being detected for a month.

“The Akula was built for one reason and one reason only: To kill U.S. Navy ballistic missile submarines and their crews,” said a second U.S. official.

“It’s a very stealthy boat so it can sneak around and avoid detection and hope to get past any protective screen a boomer might have in place,” the official said, referring to the Navy nickname for strategic missile submarines.

The U.S. Navy operates a strategic nuclear submarine base at Kings Bay, Georgia. The base is homeport to eight missile-firing submarines, six of them equipped with nuclear-tipped missiles, and two armed with conventional warhead missiles.

“Sending a nuclear-propelled submarine into the Gulf of Mexico-Caribbean region is another manifestation of President Putin demonstrating that Russia is still a player on the world’s political-military stage,” said naval analyst and submarine warfare specialist Norman Polmar.

“Like the recent deployment of a task force led by a nuclear cruiser into the Caribbean, the Russian Navy provides him with a means of ‘showing the flag’ that is not possible with Russian air and ground forces,” Polmar said in an email.

The last time an Akula submarine was known to be close to U.S. shores was 2009, when two Akulas were spotted patrolling off the east coast of the United States.

Those submarine patrols raised concerns at the time about a new Russian military assertiveness toward the United States, according to the New York Times, which first reported the 2009 Akula submarine activity.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Aug 2012 22:28

so, how did they know it left and when it arrived?

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2012 23:30

Possibly through intelligence and post analysis data of sensors in those areas.

It is possible that subs while end of the mission would leave a teaser by actively pinging to say we where here and you didnt knew happens with trailing missile when SSN trials a rival SSN or SSBN they would ping the boat after they are done with gathering data to embarass the rival crew or just tease them , just the usual cat and mouse game.

Could be any of those or something else.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Aug 2012 11:32

Peace in our time: Akula in the GOM

Image

Now the Russians have gone and done it. The Washington Free Beacon reports that a Russian Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico in June and July 2012.* The wording in the report suggests that we recognized when the submarine left the Gulf of Mexico (GOM) – presumably through the Florida Straits – that it had been in the Gulf. US national intelligence agencies probably had a good idea that the SSN was deployed, and may have assessed that it was in the Western hemisphere, but they didn’t know where. Armed with the knowledge that the submarine had departed the GOM, they “walked back” to the likely deployment date to determine when the submarine probably entered the GOM undetected.

The Washington Free Beacon story highlights the fact that the submarine was in the GOM during the G-20 summit in Mexico in June, when there was a notable coolness between President Obama and Vladimir Putin. Russian bombers made a close approach to Alaska during the summit, prompting a US and Canadian response. (As I was able to reconstruct afterward, the Russian bombers, which were participating in an Arctic exercise, entered the Alaskan Air Defense Identification Zone – ADIZ – without making the required notification to the ADIZ control center. This prompts a fighter intercept when it happens, and was of course done deliberately by the Russians, but to call it a “threat” as the WFB story at the last link does is to assume more than necessary. The Russian bombers don’t appear to have violated US or Canadian air space. It was a signal, at any rate.)

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Aug 2012 12:52

belgorod and volgograd construction is restarted per wiki. the fate of the last one barnaul is unknown.
they will likely put it back in service to restore some teeth to pacific fleet.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Aug 2012 19:00

http://www.bellona.org/articles/article ... insk_delay

Skyrocketing costs of launching ‘new’ nuclear submarine flex muscles Russia does not have
Part of: Northern Fleet naval vessels , The Russian Northern Fleet
ingress_image
The launch of the Severodvinsk.
Source: Russian Presidential Press Service

Related articles
Long delayed Yury Dolgoruky Russian nuke sub beging final sea trials(06/10-2009)

The Severodvinsk, the flagship for the new Yasen class of large scale Russian submarines, has failed sea trials in the White Sea, revealing reactor power problems, noisy operation, untested missile equipment, faulty components and huge cost overruns that will cause further problems and setbacks for the vessel’s scheduled serial production.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Aug 2012 00:49

^^Seems to me a hack job done by the russian opposite number of manoj joshi. I find it hard to believe that after creating silent and great subs like Schuka B, Russkies would have created a low powered reactor and a noisy sub. Sure during the sea trials some things may have come up, even some parts be a bit noisy but nothing insurmountable. And 1.5 billion for creating such a capable killer is hardly a high price.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 16 Aug 2012 05:48

Austin wrote:Peace in our time: Akula in the GOM

Image

Now the Russians have gone and done it. The Washington Free Beacon reports that a Russian Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico in June and July 2012.* The wording in the report suggests that we recognized when the submarine left the Gulf of Mexico (GOM) – presumably through the Florida Straits – that it had been in the Gulf. US national intelligence agencies probably had a good idea that the SSN was deployed, and may have assessed that it was in the Western hemisphere, but they didn’t know where. Armed with the knowledge that the submarine had departed the GOM, they “walked back” to the likely deployment date to determine when the submarine probably entered the GOM undetected.

The Washington Free Beacon story highlights the fact that the submarine was in the GOM during the G-20 summit in Mexico in June, when there was a notable coolness between President Obama and Vladimir Putin. Russian bombers made a close approach to Alaska during the summit, prompting a US and Canadian response. (As I was able to reconstruct afterward, the Russian bombers, which were participating in an Arctic exercise, entered the Alaskan Air Defense Identification Zone – ADIZ – without making the required notification to the ADIZ control center. This prompts a fighter intercept when it happens, and was of course done deliberately by the Russians, but to call it a “threat” as the WFB story at the last link does is to assume more than necessary. The Russian bombers don’t appear to have violated US or Canadian air space. It was a signal, at any rate.)


The site is ran by right wing fundamental republican turds .. it is more of a tabloid than anything else trying to pressurize Obama before election. However the report is true and it is all over US media now. Though after reading through them everyone is citing the republican site as the the source.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 Aug 2012 07:10

well its the turn of a US navy ship to collide with a tanker

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2012/ ... eport.html


interesting reports

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2012 09:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:Sure during the sea trials some things may have come up, even some parts be a bit noisy but nothing insurmountable. And 1.5 billion for creating such a capable killer is hardly a high price.


The SY UAC has already denied the news and said the reactor was working as expected but dont underestimate the effort that goes into developing such silent submarines.

It took US all that it has and great national effort to build submarine of silence of Virginia/Seawolf class and had its own share of problems , it would take similar effort by Russia and would end up with its own share of problems as well specially in first of the class.

$1.5 is expensive as it would cost $500 to build an Akula but capability and quitening comes with a huge price tag.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2012 09:16

Prithwiraj wrote:The site is ran by right wing fundamental republican turds .. it is more of a tabloid than anything else trying to pressurize Obama before election. However the report is true and it is all over US media now. Though after reading through them everyone is citing the republican site as the the source.


The problem seems to be the automatic cuts of $ 1 trillion in defence that would set in and USN would bear a good share of burn , hence these leaks to prop up their case so they are effected minimally by these cuts.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2012 09:25

Surya wrote:well its the turn of a US navy ship to collide with a tanker

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2012/ ... eport.html


interesting reports


Shit Happens , if you are along one of the busiest sea lanes of the world. Considering it was a oil tanker they were lucky it didnt caught fire . Radars are not all that reliable as it is made out to be and you need watch on board to make sure you suppliment technolgy

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2012 11:08

per natgeo/discovery "mighty ships" programs I see, the busy lanes near chokepoints or harbours have ships passing in opposite direction or interleaved lanes at less than 500m separations hull to hull. and there are inaccuracies in navigation instrument and hidden currents that cause certain amt of drifting.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 16 Aug 2012 12:28

Singhaji When ships are in such confined waters good navigation pratice would be to plot frquent positions using multiple methods. Electronic aids, Optical bearings fm known landmarks, Bearing off buoys , channels marked with buoys etc etc
Drifting due to wind current is compensated for by frequent navigational fixes with these aids
In close quarters ships talk to each other on their radios and decide co-ordinated course corrections to avoid collisions.

However if proper practices are disregarded the marjin of error is small, you have an accident

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 16 Aug 2012 12:51

http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog ... at-reborn/

The Collins class replacement talked about here is also a good candidate for our next line of submarines.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 Aug 2012 19:17

true

but there should be enough people on lookout in such a busy place

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2012 22:03

Surya wrote:true

but there should be enough people on lookout in such a busy place


IIRC a year back or so even we had similar incident when a Talwar class ship while trying to enter Mumbai harbour collided with a merchant ship .... even then they relied on their radar and there was no watch on board....i suppose human oversight in both cases.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Aug 2012 08:46

Austin, if I as an aam (or any mission specific aam person) were to be captaining the sub, I would never leave a teaser... I would think, that only when a big mission is complete.

Are you suggesting, the russkies have gotten many many secrets of khaan ops? or is this, find me.. I will come in and go out at any time and anywhere.. here is the challenge. take it!?

alright.. let's assume either is okay.. now how do they tease one for arrival signature?

Austin wrote:Shit Happens , .. Radars are not all that reliable as it is made out to be and you need watch on board to make sure you suppliment technolgy


perhaps ships need OLS type for surface scanning and tracking.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Aug 2012 09:32

No point in speculating over the sub incident , Pentagon today denies the incident.

A human watch is good over and above electronic watch on busy sea lanes.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Aug 2012 16:36

Royal Navy’s T26 GCS next-gen warship unveiled

Image

The U.K.’s Ministry of Defence (MOD) has unveiled its new multi-mission warship - the Type 26 Global Combat Ship (T26 GCS). Due to replace the thirteen Type 23 frigates in Britain’s Royal Navy when it enters service in after 2020, the T26 GCS has been in development by the MOD and BAE Systems since 2010 and is intended for use in combat and counter-piracy operations as well as supporting humanitarian and disaster relief work around the world.

Images released by the MOD this week show the basic specification of the ship, which has a displacement of around 5,400 metric tons (5,314 l-ton) and will be around 148 m (485.5 ft) long. These specifications were pared down from the original working baseline of a vessel length of 141 m (462.5 ft) and displacement of 6,850 metric tons (6,742 l-ton) in an effort to reduce costs from £500 million (US$786 million) to £250-350 million ($393-550 million) per ship.

Image

Designed to be one of the most advanced vessels in the Royal Navy fleet, the T26 GCS is expected to feature vertical missile silos capable of housing a range of different weapons, a medium-caliber gun, a hanger to accommodate a Merlin or Wildcat helicopter, a flexible mission space for unmanned air, surface and underwater vehicles or additional boats, and the most advanced sensors in the fleet.

"The Type 26 Global Combat Ship will be the backbone of the Royal Navy for decades to come,” said Peter Luff, the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology. “It is designed to be adaptable and easily upgraded, reacting to threats as they change.”

Now that the ship’s basic capabilities and baseline design has been endorsed, the MOD says the program will progress to the next part of the assessment phase, which will involve the examination of detailed specifications of the vessel.

Key Facts* link

Displacement: approximately 5400 tonnes
Length: approximately 148 metres
Maximum beam: 19 metres
Top speed: 28 knots +
Range: 7,000 miles at 15 knots
Endurance: 60 days
Crew size: 118
Embarked troops: 72

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Aug 2012 16:42

For a ships of size of 5400T a crew size of 118 is truly amazing , must be one of the most highly automated ships in the world , another interesting fact is it can embark 72 Troops

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 21 Aug 2012 17:32

India has expressed interest, but I think Brazil may have placed firm orders for the GCS.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2012 20:16

heh heh I see a P17A here.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 21 Aug 2012 21:46

I doubt IN will look towards the british ships. They should standardize the P-17A on FREMM and start the work now that P-17's are done.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2012 22:24

FREMMs have good kit and fit the P17A size band but quite weak in AAW loadout. the italians have 16 SAMs and french 32 SAMs a mix of aster15 and aster30.
the shivaliks have 24 Shtil and a unknown number of baraks (perhaps 16-32).

at the least we should mount 32 barak8 , MFSTAR2, 32 barak1 backed up by 4 AK630 ciws guns. these "pocket battleships" would then be able mostly do what the heavier P15A and B ships are expected to do ie carrier escort and SAM traps for hostile attacks.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 21 Aug 2012 23:22

Why 4 AK-630? With 64 SAM's 2 AK-630 should be enough for a frigate. Though it makes sense to have 16 Brahmos instead of 8. The P-15A/B should be given the AAW job with 48 + 32 Barak 2/1 SAM's and 16 Brahmos/Shaurya for long range strike.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Aug 2012 16:23

Each AK-630M covers a certain arc , 4 AK-630M will provide a near 360 * coverage with CIWS gun.

Having more gun is also useful if more than 1 target needs to be dealt with in a certain arc where it is approaching from.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Aug 2012 06:24

http://newamericamedia.org/2012/08/viet ... russia.php

The first new Kilo for Vietnam was reportedly launched recently.

Vietnam to Buy Submarines from Russia

Bao Moi, News Report, Posted: Aug 29, 2012
"Vietnam has signed a contract to buy submarines, aircraft and other heavy weapons with Russia," Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung told journalists after talks with Russian Prime Minister VladimirPutin.

Details of the terms of the contract were not disclosed, but according to earlier media reports, Russia plans to sell Vietnam six submarines Project 636 Kilo-Class with a value of up to $ 1.8 billion.

Submarine contracts worth up to $ 1.8 billion will include the construction of onshore infrastructure and training of sailors serving on the submarines. This will be the second largest submarine contract that Russia received since the Soviet period. Russia's largest contract is a contract to sell eight submarines to China.

Kilo-class submarines (Type 636) is considered one of the quietest submarines in the world. This submarine is designed for anti-ship and anti-submarine operations in relatively shallow waters.

Vietnam is believed to have ordered the Russian patrol ship class Svetlyak and frigates.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Sep 2012 23:57

Mystery of the missing Dutch sub of WW2.Could this be the same sub that the author writing under the pseudonym Creighton (colleague of Ian Fleming and alleged British super spy,operating directly under Churchill's special team),writing in his book Op JB,allegedly spotted the Japanese fleet on their way to Pearl Harbour and was allegedly sunk (with the help of Creighton) on the orders of Churchill and Roosevelt? Ever since the war,rumours that the Allied leaders knew of the impending attack but wanted it to happen in order to bring America into the war,as there was a very strong pro-German lobby in the US that included the Bush family,Prescott Bush,who allegedly helped bankroll Hitler and the Nazi party.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-t ... l-19428553

Dutch Navy to search for Dundee-based submarine lost in WWII
O-13 at Vlissingen O-13 at Vlissingen before she fled across the channel to join the Royal Navy

O-13, or Onderzeeboot 13, escaped from Holland during the German invasion in May 1940 to join the Royal Navy.
The boat failed to return from a mission in the North Sea in June that year.
A Dutch naval expedition is hoping to locate the wreck of a Dundee-based World War Two submarine more than 70 years after it disappeared.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 02 Sep 2012 11:48

http://nation.time.com/2011/07/05/u-s-n ... -seawater/

This is a new class of ship, operating these high speed cats and tri-marans , needs a new mindset trivial things that one would not think of on conventional vessels make a huge diff here
Its a learning curve. The experts will be in and corrective action will be taken


things like Laundry detergent, cleaning agents , etc will have to been known to have caused troubles on aluminum hulls. Fire control has to be huge too.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2012 10:04

the trimaran USS Independence design imo could form the basis of a smallish 10000-12000t ASW helicopter carrier to be produced in bulk to deploy with task forces.
* built of steel
* mount some 8-10 helicopters of upto Merlin size
* a single 3D air search radar of the aruthra family
* above the deck most of the space would hanger, with the bridge area in front
* 2 x AK630 CIWS
* 24 cell Barak-1 SRSAM ahead of the bridge on foredeck
* decoy launchers
* EO ball atop the main mast
* 1 x RBU launcher on foredeck
* 2 x 3TT reloadable LWT launchers off the stern
* absolutely no command & control capability or any embarked LST/LCAC etc - ie its NOT a LPH/LPD
* high combat speed using CODAG plant , able to keep up with fleet ships
* high range and endurance incl crew comfort, food etc
* towed sonar and UUV launcher off the stern
* no main gun
* no ASM, the helicopters would carry some ASM. (or maybe 4 uran ASM in inclined tubes)
* shallow in draught to operate in littoral waters
* free up the solitary hanger onboard the Talwars from having to house the KA31 AEW , instead this ship will carry 2 such helis and downlink.

as you know lot of our ships carry only 1 heli including P28 and Talwar. and all the rest carry 2 only.
this ship should be able to do a much better job of sanitizing large areas for submarines and the job of convoy protection against submarines.
accompanying task forces it should be able to generate a 24x7 coverage of ASW helicopters in the air and free up space onboard the real carriers - they would just carry a few util helis for plane guard/casevac/liaison.

we already have a precedence in the JMSDF haruna/shirane which devoted lot of space topside to carry 3 x SH60 helis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Hawaii.jpg


and these were single hulls. a trimaran hull form will generate a wide hanger - enough for 8-10 helis hauled down and railed away into their dedicated slots inside.

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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby khukri » 03 Sep 2012 11:20

An alternate view of the new British Type 26 Global Combat Ship, by one who should know.....

From Defense Aerospace

Do You Understand your Prime Minister? (excerpt)

 
(Source: Daily Mail’s William Forbes blog; posted Aug. 31, 2012)
 
 


“Do you understand your Prime Minister?” the General asked me. "Have you seen the news from BAE Systems? It’s a picture of his new peaceship. The First Sea Lord says it’s designed for ‘humanitarian and disaster relief work around the world’, but just look at it. It’s not built for the North Atlantic, not with that hull it ain’t, look at the flare, but it’s painted North Atlantic grey to seem stealthy. If it’s to run around the world doing good as the SDSR tells us, the Prime Minister will want people to see it, won’t he? So it shouldn’t be coloured for stealth – it should be painted vividly in highly saturated fluorescent red, white and blue.”

“Yes,” I said, “but this is the Type 26, the new Global Combat Ship. It’s going to be in combat against pirates and drug runners. That’s why it’s grey. Not exactly stealth, but ‘low observability’. Look, it has a gun.”

“A gun!” he said. “You call that a gun? When I was a toddler I had a cowboy suit with a bigger gun than that. Matelots used to know how to cover their rear, but they can’t here with that, can they? A Somali in a skiff with an RPG could approach from astern and sink it.”

“Yes, if it could get near enough to use an RPG, but there’s a helicopter to look after the rear.” But only one, I thought, and that might be a Merlin even if they plan on an updated Lynx. And how often would a Merlin be serviceable in 2020?

“Five years ago, in the Gulf, HMS Cornwall had a chopper but it couldn’t even defend the cabin boy’s iPod. D’you see there are no rails? A rough sea swamping the deck and stealth will be destroyed by a trail of sailors washed overboard. No davits for the lifeboats. No lifeboats. I can see only two cells for launching missiles – perhaps there are more astern – but it really doesn’t look like a warship, does it? It' s a peaceship. What’s it actually for?”

“I don’t know,” I said. “They plan on it coming into service in 2020, so ...”

“2020!” he interrupted. “It’s a BAE Systems contract commissioned by the MoD, for heaven’s sake. And it’s for the Royal Navy, which is still governed by tradition. That means it will be years late, vastly over budget, and too expensive to fully equip. We’ve been sending ships to sea without their missiles ever since that lunatic Brown decided missiles were unnecessary so long as our ships were actually capable of putting to sea with missiles if they had any, so having no missiles because we have no money is the new tradition we must follow. Forget 2020. That was chosen for PR reasons because the first new carrier is due to go to sea then – without aircraft, of course, because we can’t afford the ones for which it was designed, and those will be tactically useless anyway.”

“Well, it’s not really that bad,” I said. “When it does eventually come into service, it will be basically a new type of destroyer. Our admirals insist on having a destroyer-frigate navy. That’s what they understand. They can cope with aircraft carriers, but they don’t really like them.”

“Yes, you’re right,” he said, “and that’s the problem. A destroyer-frigate navy. The frigates are there to defend against submarines, and the destroyers against air attacks, but the submarines the frigates once fought successfully were diesel-powered. They can’t fight nuclear subs. Only other nuclear subs can do that. Helicopters could sometimes, perhaps, but I doubt it for the future. The destroyers might do point defence against some incoming missiles, but not against crossing targets, and not against the existing supersonic surface-skimming cruise missiles – and by 2020 new hypersonic anti-ship missiles will have put this Type 26 Global Combat Ship out of business, and the carriers, too, of course.”

“Perhaps you have a point,” I admitted. (end of excerpt)

Singha
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2012 15:08

how stable are bimaran and trimaran ships in crossing heavy seas ? if they are not as good as single hulls might limit the usage of the big helicopter deck (actually the heli deck will be fine with 2-3 spots , we need a big hanger inside and a haulage system to go out to these two spots , and pull in a heli into any of a set of 7-10 parking areas arranged in two rows inside the broad hangar)

also this kind of ship would be an idea base for marcos platoons to base out of in island hopping / COIN / anti-piracy missions vs the more restricted and cramped environs of a FFG (which for us are not overly large).

TSJones
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 03 Sep 2012 19:25

khukri wrote:An alternate view of the new British Type 26 Global Combat Ship, by one who should know.....
From Defense Aerospace
Do You Understand your Prime Minister? (excerpt)
(Source: Daily Mail’s William Forbes blog; posted Aug. 31, 2012)
“Do you understand your Prime Minister?” the General asked me. "Have you seen the news from BAE Systems? It’s a picture of his new peaceship. The First Sea Lord says it’s designed for ‘humanitarian and disaster relief work around the world’, but just look at it. It’s not built for.........delete for assertions made with no supporting evidence....... “Perhaps you have a point,” I admitted. (end of excerpt)


I think despite the New Speak name of "Peaceship" what the Brits want are options. So what you have are ships being made with silos that can accomodate various and sundry missiles to do different jobs: anti sub, anti A/C. anti missiles, and anti-ship. The cartons of missiles that they will leave port with will be determined by their mission. And BTW, the US has gone with this concept also.

Therefore I think what is important are the electronics, radar, sonar, computers, etc. If their electronics are top notch, then they can put a missile on target. Gone are the days when a ship needed to be festooned with guns in order to fight. The ships automatic high velocity cannon can be brought to bear on small boats and ships up to 10-12 miles away. Up close work with pirates can be dealt with with personnel setting up machine guns on the ship or the helicopters. Of course the helocopters are needed for anti sub work.

Eric Leiderman
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 03 Sep 2012 21:18

Singhaji these ships are stable however the roll of these ships is stiff, this can bring on crew fatigue in heavy seas. They have a shallow draft and are great for island hopping
Very high speeds (once the vessel reaches a certain speed the fwd hull lifts fm the water and rides the waves) comparitavely good on fuel.

Brando
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 03 Sep 2012 23:41

Singha wrote:how stable are bimaran and trimaran ships in crossing heavy seas ?


There is no such thing as a "bimaran" - it is called a catamaran or cat if you're feeling lazy.

Cat's and Tri's sit on the water instead of in it like monohulls do and hence basically are more subject to roll when subjected to huge waves beam on. Tri's are somewhat more stable than Cat's to rolling but have much lower rolling inertia than cats and are easier to tip because the amas are generally less bouyant. Cat's and Tri's are also known to do a quite a bit of pitching compared to monohulls because unlike monohulls that "cut" through the waves, they generally "ride" the waves. Then there is the fact that most builders just don't understand cat and tri construction and most vessels suffer from stress fractures due to improper construction. Another consideration is tri's can carry far less weight than cat's and even less than a monohulls requiring them to resupply often and limiting their range. Of course, modern hull design and materials have eliminated these problems almost completely. Add to this automatic seakeeping and sea state monitoring control software for large multihulls and the debate is purely academic as to the "disadvantages" of multihulls. Indeed, today for any given beam length it would be FAR more efficient to use multihulls than monohulls if the builders know what they are doing and build in sufficient stress tolerances.

In the civie sailing circuit, cat's have been the most successful mutlihulls due to their enormous weight carrying capacity, their speed, their excellent windward performances, lesser wetted surface, excellent stability in rough seas and spacious cabin's have all endeared them to owners. Of course, now the focus has shifted to tri's we should expect to see similar improvements in their designs in the years to come.
Last edited by Brando on 03 Sep 2012 23:59, edited 1 time in total.


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