International Naval News & Discussion

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 14 Mar 2023 03:21

Quick Summary:

* 3 Virginia Class SSNs bought by the Aussies (fly away) + 2 Optional
* Timeline is end of this decade, so maybe Aussies take delivery starting 2030?
* Joint UK/Aussie SSN in a few decades time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2023 21:18

Manish_P wrote:They might be happy with a stalemate, under the nuclear overhang...

If an all out war occurs (I hope not), the US Navy will lose no opportunity to cut the PLAN down to size. Losses will be severe, but the ChiComs will have suffered a significant military setback.

Manish_P wrote:Incidentally from the Chinese armed forces thread.. a recent post had this nugget.

Note the audience the SECNAV and the USNI have made this statement to. It makes sense to highlight the issue and the same will be done when they go before Congress for funding approval. This is how the narrative is built up to secure funding for future naval programs. No foreseeable threat = no funding.

The Chinese naval build up is indeed alarming and our own Naval Chief recently stated --> "China has inducted 148 warships in the last 10 years, which I would say is perhaps the entire Indian Navy size."

When viewed in isolation, these numbers are startling. The ChiCom strategy has & will always be intimidation via numbers. However a few years back, it was reported that the PLAN does not have the number of experienced Captains to operate all these ships that they are commissioning. See the article that I have posted at the bottom of this post. They are putting officers in command of capital ships, who have very little - if any - experience in naval warfare or strategy. And this is their situation with their COs...just imagine what experience their junior officers and sailors will have.

The PLAN will have a challenging time prevailing outside of the South China Sea. Their CBGs are already on 24-7 watch by western naval assets. The AUKUS agreement has only further complicated what was an already uphill task.

Commander Wei Xiaohui to be Chinese Navy's first female warship captain
http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-03 ... 445034.htm
08 March 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2023 21:19

The alliance between Australia, Britain and America is seriously ambitious
https://www.economist.com/asia/2023/03/ ... -ambitious
13 March 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2023 21:19

Joint Leaders Statement on AUKUS
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... n-aukus-2/
13 March 2023

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Mar 2023 23:25

Rakesh wrote: ..This is how the narrative is built up to secure funding for future naval programs. No foreseeable threat = no funding...

That the MILIND complex SOP from nearly a century back. No surprises.

When viewed in isolation, these numbers are startling. The ChiCom strategy has & will always be intimidation via numbers...

Exactly. Quantity has a quality of it's own. Training and experience matters a lot but so also the will to take hits and survive. The US is fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian. They will start a shooting war only if they are convinced they can fight the Chinese to the last Japanese, Australian, Indian? Might as well check with the Koreans too.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Mar 2023 00:49

Manish_P wrote:Exactly. Quantity has a quality of it's own. Training and experience matters a lot but so also the will to take hits and survive. The US is fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian. They will start a shooting war only if they are convinced they can fight the Chinese to the last Japanese, Australian, Indian? Might as well check with the Koreans too.

Numbers indeed do have an advantage of their own. Take our own CNS' statement - 148 ships commissioned in 10 years. But what is the fleet availability of those 148 vessels? How many vessels can the PLAN put out to sea at a given moment? No navy on planet earth has the ability to put out their entire fleet for naval operations. The PLAN will be no different.

The Chinese have very little will to take hits and survive, psychologically. They still have not publicly acknowledged their actual losses at Galwan in 2020. How much of a hit to their H&D will occur, if & when allied navies sink one of their aircraft carriers - Fujian, Shandong or Liaoning and their subsequent battle group? And unlike Galwan, it will be hard pressed to hide that loss. Their intimidation is only successful, where they can control the narrative. In the open seas, they have no such luck.

A few years back, the PLAN came out with their own report on the JMSDF (Japanese Navy). That report concluded that the biggest threat to PLAN naval surface assets was from the Japanese submarine arm (Oyashio Class, Sōryū Class and Taigei Class). And these are conventional SSK boats. Even the JMSDF's surface destroyers (Maya, Atamo, Kongo Class, etc) were not rated as much of a threat, as their submarine fleet. The pair of Izumo Class helicopter carriers (cough...cough...pocket aircraft carriers operating the VSTOL F-35B) will bring in a new dimension, but that is a discussion for another day.

On top of that, the PLAN has to deal with the US (Virginia Class) and RN (Astute Class) SSN fleet, clandestinely operating in the area + the US Navy's base in Japan with a substantial CBG stationed. That fleet has enough firepower to make a few nations blush. If this was all not enough, now they have to deal with the RAN's upcoming SSN fleet. When the PLAN starts losing assets, in an open shooting match, how eager would they be to deploy those similar type of assets to a naval theatre, which will likely share the same fate?

And having US SSNs operate out of Australia will vastly increase the operational flexibility of these boats. If I were the PLAN, I will have to do a serious rethink on naval strategies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Mar 2023 21:21

https://twitter.com/TheBaseLeg/status/1 ... 40384?s=20 ---> Follow @EvanLaksmana for the Indonesian take on AUKUS, from where he also linked this map that also shows why Australia is seeking an East Coast base for its SSNs.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 19 Mar 2023 10:06

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... e-warships

Qantas pilots told to fly through radio interference reportedly coming from Chinese warships

“IFALPA has been made aware of some airlines and military aircraft being called over [radio frequencies] 121.50 or 123.45 by military warships in the Pacific region,” the statement read.
....
Hansford said that while it was concerning that the warships were contacting flights with the VHF system, it was more concerning that they had were jamming GPS systems.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Mar 2023 19:42

Singapore’s DSTA Taps Saab For MRCV Design
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... cv-design/
27 March 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Mar 2023 20:42

https://twitter.com/MarineNationale/sta ... 26980?s=20 ---> The Nuclear Naval Air Force (FANU) implemented from the aircraft carrier, participated in POKER alongside the FAS. The two forces planned and carried out a joint high-stretch raid under anti-aircraft threat, demonstrating the credibility of the airborne nuclear component.

https://twitter.com/CEM_AAE/status/1641 ... 14593?s=20 ---> During the last 48 hours the operation of the Strategic Air Forces #POKER has taken place, reproducing, above the national territory, the nuclear raid of the airborne nuclear component. This action demonstrates the operational credibility of the CNA carried by the FAS.

wig · Post by **wig** » 01 Apr 2023 19:12

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/fr ... e8af&ei=16

France Joins US, UK And Australia in AUKUS Submarine Program to Counter Chinese Influence In Indo-Pacific: Report
excerpted

Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United states are already part of the AUKUS submarine programme. The expected cost of the project is 368 billion dollars. As per the report by Naval News, the French Navy could receive up to four submarines under the plan.

The project aims to deliver a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines for the member countries. However, it is still not clear whether the French warships will be exactly like their Anglo-Saxon counterparts.

the submarine design

On March 14, some images were released of the AUKUS submarines. These images reportedly resemble the Barracuda class submarine which will enter the service with the French Navy soon. As per reports, some of these submarines will be built in a new facility exactly halfway between UK's Southampton and Cherbourg in France.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2023 20:55

Future French aircraft carrier: the Minister of the Armed Forces confirms the schedule
https://www-meretmarine-com.translate.g ... r_pto=wapp
03 April 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2023 21:00

Mine warfare: an agreement between France, Belgium and the Netherlands expected soon
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defense/ ... as-attendu
03 April 2023

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 03 Apr 2023 21:22

wig wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/fr ... e8af&ei=16

France Joins US, UK And Australia in AUKUS Submarine Program to Counter Chinese Influence In Indo-Pacific: Report

Ummm the date of the article -- April 1

It was a FUKUS joke.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2023 21:30

Avid wrote:
wig wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/fr ... e8af&ei=16

France Joins US, UK And Australia in AUKUS Submarine Program to Counter Chinese Influence In Indo-Pacific: Report
Ummm the date of the article -- April 1

It was a FUKUS joke.

It is an April Fools joke onlee.

Twitter got in on the fun and announced that Canada would join in and the new term would be CAN-FUK-US

Not to be undone, some Indian Twitter users stated that India would join in after Canada and new acronym would be ICANFUKUS

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 04 Apr 2023 06:32

Rakesh wrote:
Avid wrote: Ummm the date of the article -- April 1

It was a FUKUS joke.
It is an April Fools joke onlee.

Twitter got in on the fun and announced that Canada would join in and the new term would be CAN-FUK-US

Not to be undone, some Indian Twitter users stated that India would join in after Canada and new acronym would be ICANFUKUS

Proves that to make interesting acronyms and coalitions Australia can't be involved

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 04 Apr 2023 07:13

^ I may be wrong but wasn't the acronym proposed on BRF forums years ago, when AUKUS was initiated...

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 04 Apr 2023 13:01

Yours sincerely!

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 04 Apr 2023 13:05

The very original article:

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... e-program/

France is set to join the AUKUS Submarine program
The AUKUS program will provide new submarines for the Royal Australian Navy, Royal Navy and French Navy (Marine Nationale)
France Joins AUKUS Submarine Program
Under extended plans, France will join the AUKUS submarine program. This will see advanced nuclear-powered attack submarines built for Australia, United Kingdom and France. The United States is also providing key elements, including interim submarines for the Royal Australian Navy.
Naval News Staff 01 Apr 2023

The French government has joined the previously trinational AUKUS submarine program. Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States are already involved in the 368 billion dollar project. The plan is to build and deliver a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarine for the respective navies. Now the French Navy (Marine Nationale) could receive up to four submarines under the plans.

The AUKUS submarine deal was announced in a joint session by British, the American and Australian leaders on September 18 2021. A follow-up announcement on March 13 2023 confirmed that the British SSN(R) program would form the basis of the AUKUS design. It is unclear whether the French boats will be exactly like their Anglo-Saxon counterparts, or slightly slimmer.

Design Influences
There were already indications that this new partnership was imminent. It may explain why some official images of the then-called AUKUS submarine, released March 14, appear to show it with a French style sail. The sail depicted closely resembled the Barracuda class submarine which is now entering service with the French Navy.

In anticipation of cost overruns with the interior design of the crew accommodation and galley spaces, the submarines will be built for-but-not-with (FBNW) torpedo tubes. The new arrangement could save millions in operating costs. This is according to an anonymous source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

The torpedo tube situation would not be permeant. “In the event of increased tensions or the outbreak of hostilities” the source added “the submarines could be rebuilt with torpedo tubes in just a matter of years”. It should be remembered that a 4 year overhaul is considered short in submarine terms. Especially in Canada.

The submarine service remains silent on the new deal.

Joint Construction Key To Success
It is understood that the submarines will be built in a new facility exactly halfway between Southampton and Cherbourg. The latter is the home of French submarine building. Such a political decision was widely expected. It is the hallmark of international collaborations in the defense arena. Australia’s submarines will be built locally in Australian yards, and assembled in France and the United Kingdom. The completed submarines will then be shipped by rail via the Suez Canal to Australia.

The upgraded program will be renamed FUKUS after France joins. Following the expected formal announcement, the submerge à trois will become a submerge à quatre. Boris Johnson, who was among the leaders who originally announced the AUKUS program, is said to be keen to join the celebrations. A Downing Street spokesperson has preemptively denied the existence of the planned catered business meetings.

It is understood that Canada will not be allowed to join FUKUS for common decency reasons.

Important update on this article: April Fool’s

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2023 19:20

SNLE3G = France's next generation SSBN to replace the Triomphant Class SSBN.

PANG = Porte-avions de nouvelle génération (the upcoming aircraft carrier)

https://twitter.com/top_force/status/16 ... 32002?s=20 ---> The Navy will be modernized by 2030 with 3 Force Supply Ships, three Defense & Intervention Frigates, 7 Offshore Patrol Vessels, 6 Barracuda SSN and major programs like SNLE3G* and PANG* will be in progress.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 May 2023 20:09

Japan’s JS Kaga Shows Off New Bow
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... r-new-bow/
25 April 2023

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 04 May 2023 10:54

What a bigass ship Russia's Arktika icebreaker is - nuclear powered, of course

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 05 Jun 2023 23:51

Can this even work? Or just another useless trial balloon?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jun 2023 08:17

It's a bridge too far.

Saudi may have decided to have good relationship with Iran. Doesn't mean they will be willing to be junior member in the so called Navy.

India will not accept someone else commanding our men. Iran will not accept second position.

Pakistan will gladly jump up and down. But absent Saudi and India. No one will take this seriously.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 16 Jun 2023 11:28

I saw a news report of Modi being given a tour in Russia of that country's plans for the arctic. In the news video, a lady was showing Modi a model of very futuristic-looking ship. Intrigued, I googled around and found a video about that Russian ship, the nuclear-powered icebreaker Lider ("Leader"), which is due to enter service by 2027:

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:46

Australia To Get One New Build Virginia Class Submarine, Two From U.S. Navy
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/a ... m-u-s-navy
08 June 2023

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 19 Jun 2023 02:35

Is it true that Chinese navy now has submarines with pump-jet propulsion?

Is India looking at implementing such technology? And if so, how far away is it?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jun 2023 06:56

Unless India decides to build a submarine. We will never know how far away from Virginia class we are.

On the bright side we are only 2 years away from the SSN design MDL thinks that it will start building.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2023 05:48

A Deep Dive Into Germany’s Submarine Force
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/a ... rine-force
21 June 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2023 20:18

First time I am seeing a video of this, so very interesting to watch. A French Navy Rafale M conducting shore based, short take off and landing. This is a CATOBAR launch, as you can clearly see the catapult system in the beginning of the video.

https://twitter.com/AviationMarlene/sta ... 46113?s=20 ---> Test of the navalised version of the Rafale, the Rafale M, from a runway equipped with a catapult similar to that used on aircraft carriers.

© : Pégase, le magazine du ciel, June 1996.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 26 Jun 2023 21:42

Rakesh wrote:A Deep Dive Into Germany’s Submarine Force
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/a ... rine-force
21 June 2023

They appear to have come a long way,

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/entire- ... et-action/

Entire German submarine fleet out of action

“It’s a real disaster for the Navy, it’s the first time in history that there will not be any submarine operating for months,” warns the president of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Parliament, Hans-Peter Bartels, in an interview published on Sunday in the Berlin weekly Bild am Sonntag.

Aldonkar · Post by **Aldonkar** » 28 Jun 2023 16:31

Lisa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:A Deep Dive Into Germany’s Submarine Force
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/a ... rine-force
21 June 2023
They appear to have come a long way,

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/entire- ... et-action/

Entire German submarine fleet out of action

“It’s a real disaster for the Navy, it’s the first time in history that there will not be any submarine operating for months,” warns the president of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Parliament, Hans-Peter Bartels, in an interview published on Sunday in the Berlin weekly Bild am Sonntag.

I think you will see the reason in the article you linked to:

"In 2015, it was revealed that only 29 of Germany’s 66 Tornado jets are airworthy. Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen then stressed that only six of the operational Tornado jets would be needed for the proposed German mission in Syria. German chief of staff General Volker Wieker said"

Ursula von der Lying was Defence minister at the time. Only a fraction of the airforce was airworthy, Navy had no subs and the Army had no ammo. Shortly afterwards she was kicked upstairs to the EU to wreak her magic on that organisation!

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 28 Jun 2023 23:29

Aldonkarji

Please also see the article below and the attached table. von der lying (in small case on purpose) was also responsible for this. Men died in Afghanistan because of these failures.

Germany loses legal battle with gun maker

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-military- ... a-19522739

also

The German Navy Decided To Return Their Bloated New Frigate To The Ship Store This Christmas

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -christmas

"According to Navaltoday.com, this is the first time the German Navy has returned a ship to a shipbuilder after delivery. Baden-Wurttenberg had already missed its planned commissioning date last summer. "

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2023 20:13

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/DGA/status/1676252289844101123?s=20 ---> The DGA Hydrodynamic Techniques testing and expertise center carries out tests for future generation ballistic missile submarines that will be commissioned by the @MarineNationale in the next decade.

https://twitter.com/DGA/status/1676252294503858179?s=20 ---> For these tests, the DGA designed, manufactured and developed an autonomous model, representative of the shape of future submarines. It is tested at Lac de Bédane in order to assess the maneuvering performance during the gyrations of the future SNLE at sea.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 08 Jul 2023 01:15

Interesting video...

SUBMARINE Factory: How submarines are built?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 11 Jul 2023 23:30

Apologies if this is a repost.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jul 2023 01:28

Wow - whoooo kneeew? CDG but from a Russian site.. so read it as gossip..

https://en.topwar.ru/27803-sharl-de-gol ... trofa.html

How does the company that makes the propeller disappear? WTF? its no small thing..

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Jul 2023 17:38

Magnetohydrodynamic pump is now being developed by DARPA. Game changer in submarine design and stealth.

https://interestingengineering.com/inno ... -submarine

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jul 2023 22:02

Cybaru wrote: ↑13 Jul 2023 01:28 Wow - whoooo kneeew? CDG but from a Russian site.. so read it as gossip..

https://en.topwar.ru/27803-sharl-de-gol ... trofa.html

How does the company that makes the propeller disappear? WTF? its no small thing..

Yes, it did happen. I remember the French press, media & public lampooning and lambasting the fr govt & navy for months on this incident. Losing a propeller on maiden voyage is like... no there is nothing that comes close in terms of embarrassment. Over the years, CGD led mostly the life of a garage queen in sunny Toulon. Lets hope the PANG does better.

For the rest, I wouldn't pi$$ on the French or even the Chinese so quickly. We'll have our own challenges with INS Vikrant. We may come to know of some, may be not for most others.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Aug 2023 00:38

Israel Launches New Submarine, First In World With Modern Missiles In Sail
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... s-in-sail/
14 Aug 2023