Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

International Naval News and Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Prithwiraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Prithwiraj » 21 Aug 2017 06:56

Adm. Harris might get fired going by the way President's work style... :)...

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 07:01

Why would he get fired? He is Unified combatant commander for the AOR. He isn't in the Navy chain of command as far as this is concerned nor is he the force provider. The chain of command here goes up to the CNO through the fleet commander.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Aug 2017 07:16

10 missing, four injured.

The McCain collision marks the fourth incident involving a US Navy warship based at Yokosuka this year.

On June 17, the guided-missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald collided with a container ship off the coast of Japan. That collision resulted in the deaths of seven US sailors.

On May 9, the guided-missile cruiser USS Lake Champlain was struck by a small fishing boat off the Korean Peninsula.

And in late January, the guided-missile cruiser USS Antietam ran aground while trying to anchor in Tokyo Bay.

All four of the US warships are equipped with the Aegis missile defense system, which has been touted as a possible defense against any North Korean missile launch that might endanger US forces and US allies in Asia.

The USS John S. McCain is named for the father and grandfather of US Sen. John McCain. Both of McCain's relatives were US Navy admirals. The senator was a captain in the US Navy.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 07:54

Ouch, I guess one of the issues about sharing space with heavies like container ships and tankers is they cannot "brake" quickly and "turn like a truck". from 15knots to dead stop with full astern screw is about 1.5 miles i read and turns are sluggish.

so any decisions on course changes and collision avoidance have to be early and right - by both sides. one mistake and things get bad. two mistakes might actually cancel each other out.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 07:56

CNN - does not look for the worlds premier navy...

In a report on the Fitzgerald collision released just last week, the Navy it would review its training and qualification procedures.

"The collision was avoidable and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship. Within Fitzgerald, flawed watch stander teamwork and inadequate leadership contributed to the collision," a 7th Fleet statement said.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 09:46

pump outlets working to keep flooding under control
Image

30,000t slow 10knots coastal tanker, not a VLCC
Image

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 09:47

the merchant ship as usual appears unscathed with his high deck level and 3X weight.
it looks like the protruding underwater nose of the ship may have struck

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 09:59

CNN
The commanding officer, executive officer and senior non-commissioned officer of the USS Fitzgerald have been removed from their duties for cause amid the fallout surrounding the deadly collision between the USS Fitzgerald and a cargo ship off the coast of Japan on June 17.

"We've lost trust and confidence in their ability to lead in those positions and they will not return to the ship," Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. William Moran told reporters at the Pentagon late Thursday. The 7th Fleet also said several junior officers were relieved of duty.
While the final investigation into the collision is ongoing, Moran said: "We do not have to have the investigation complete to start the process."

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6581
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 21 Aug 2017 10:19

Heavy congestion and traffic in that area. No excuse for collision but tells you how tough things are in that region.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17642
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 Aug 2017 12:43

Very unfortunate,10 sailors missing.Let's hope that a many as poss. can be rescued. The "rules of the road" are very clear,but in the congested Straits and harbours like Bombay,etc.,collisions are unfortunately accidents waiting to happen thanks to human error.Just as it was found by accident helpful (aircraft lighting up their tails,showing their logos) to see aircraft at night on the tarmac,runways,etc.,and in the air,so too must some sort of illuminating the bows and stern of merchantmen when transiting congested waters,which may aid in avoiding collisions.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1673
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Aug 2017 13:03

Second DDG getting struck by a commerce ship in Japanese waters. What the hell is going on!?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 14:50

This was not in Japanese waters. This occurred East of the Malacca Strait near Pengerang. Malaysian authorities have revealed that this was the site of another merchant vessel collision (oil tankers) on August 19, so a highly congested area. The ship is now in port at the Changi Naval base.

“Significant damage to the hull resulted in flooding to nearby compartments, including crew berthing, machinery, and communications rooms,” the command said. ”Damage control efforts by the crew halted further flooding.”

The ship suffered heavy flooding in two crew berthings and in a space known as ”shaft alley,” through which runs the shafts that connect to the engines to turn the ship’s propellers, according to an early internal report reviewed by Navy Times.

The collision with the Liberian-flagged merchant vessel Alnic MC happened while the U.S. ship was underway east of Singapore and the Strait of Malacca at 5:24 a.m. local time, according to Navy officials.Unlike the collision between the destroyer Fitzgerald and the ACX Crystal off Japan in June, much of the crew would be up and preparing to eat breakfast and turn over watch stations at that time.

The Alnic MC is a 600-foot oil and chemical tanker with a gross tonnage of 30,000, according to a Navy release. The tanker is about three times the size of the McCain.

Images circulating on social media show a large hole in McCain that extends below the waterline below the ship’s aft missile deck. The ship’s propulsion was limited as it made its way to Singapore.

Throughout the day the ship had communications, according to a Navy official who spoke on background.

U.S. Osprey and Seahawks responded to help with the search and rescue effort, according to the Navy

Tugs from Singapore, as well as helicopters and a patrol ship from Singapore Navy, the RSS Gallant, assisted McCain.

Singapore and Malaysian assets were also aiding in the search for the missing sailors.

While what exactly happened remained unknown late Sunday night in the United States, the McCain and Fitzgerald incidents are troubling, according to Jan van Tol, a retired commander of three war ships who now serves as an analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

“Navy destroyers are remarkably nimble and responsive, including rapid acceleration ability, thus should certainly be able to get out of the way of almost anything approaching ‘too close,’” van Tol said in an email.

“Such close quarters situations should NEVER be allowed to develop without various watchstanders and watchteams being well aware that they are developing,” he said.

It is unknown whether McCain had suffered any kind of casualty to its engineering or steering systems ahead of the collision that would have contributed to the disaster.

The Navy’s top officer tweeted that the safety Navy’s first priority.

“Our first priority is determining the safety of the ship and crew,” Adm. John Richardson tweeted. ”As more information is learned, we will share it.”

The destroyer was en route to a routine port visit in Singapore.

At-sea collisions are extremely rare for the U.S. Navy. One of the other most recent was in August 2012, when the Panamanian-flagged oil tanker M/V Otowasan collided with the guided-missile destroyer Porter in the Strait of Hormuz.




http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy ... nt-vessel/

Image

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 21 Aug 2017 15:23, edited 2 times in total.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1673
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Aug 2017 15:00

At the very least, it means the US Navy is pretty active in East Asia. Probably just the result of a large number of US warships in a region with huge volumes of commercial shipping.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7516
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 21 Aug 2017 15:07

The USN need to add a collision avoidance system on its ship's.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 15:12

chola wrote:At the very least, it means the US Navy is pretty active in East Asia. Probably just the result of a large number of US warships in a region with huge volumes of commercial shipping.



This is a busy AOR. I believe there are 10-12 AEGIS class destroyers and Cruisers supporting the 7th fleet but the increased activity in the area has been there for quite some time so is no excuse if this was indeed a systems, SOP lapse, or human factor related. Overall well over a dozen vessels are permanently forward based in either Japan or Guam. It appears that the Fitz. incident at least partially was due to the ship's crew or leadership and if this is the same case here (for all we know the two may be totally unrelated) then this warrants a serious look at the SOP and training guidelines at the very least. Again, too early to tell but as I said earlier heads will roll and this time they may just go beyond the leadership of the vessel and may involve the 7th fleet.

Pratyush wrote:The USN need to add a collision avoidance system on its ship's.



Interestingly, a senior staffer for the House Armed Service Committee chairman just tweeted and then subsequently deleted such a demand. This could be something they look at though.

Prithwiraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Prithwiraj » 21 Aug 2017 15:19

Can arrogance play a role? Just curious.. like "this is a US Navy Ship.. we are not going move for any other ship"... remember that ship vs light house clip on youtube?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 15:26

There are written rules of the road for collision avoidance at sea. Any deviation from these, or any activity or conduct not within these rules or the SOP for the navy concerned is a lapse and attributed to poor seamanship. Hence an investigation that goes into it and uncovers the cause or causes leading up to a particular incidence. If one were to simply throw wild guesses for this out there one could probably give dozens if not more.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 15:31

MHI lands contract to build new Japanese destroyers


Image

According to the specifications released by ATLA, the new destroyers will be 130 meters long and displace 3,900 tons, and will be designed for a variety of missions including anti-submarine warfare and mine countermeasures, with the capability to operate helicopters, unmanned surface and underwater vehicles.

The ships will be armed with a 5-inch, 62-caliber gun, almost certainly to be the BAE Mk.45 Mod 4 weapon; an unknown number of Vertical Launch System cells; canister-launched anti-ship missiles and a SeaRAM system with a Raytheon/Diehl BGT Defence RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile for local air defense.

The primary multifunction radar and other primary sensors will be enclosed in an integrated mast and hull mounted sonar will be fitted for mine countermeasures operations, according to the MHI artwork that accompanied the ATLA release. The ships will also carry tactical datalinks, SATCOM for communications as well as towed array and variable depth sonar for its anti-submarine sensor suite.

ATLA also said that the ships will be powered by a Rolls-Royce MT30 gas turbine and a pair of MAN 12V28/33D STC diesel engines in a Combined Diesel and Gas or CODAG arrangement, with the ships capable of making 30 knots. Each ship is expected to cost 50 billion yen or $456.7 million.

Chinmay
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:25

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Chinmay » 21 Aug 2017 15:58

^ Looks rather lightweight for a destroyer, considering that almost all their current fleet displaces a lot more and are quite capable ships. Most modern frigates displace a lot more.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 16:06

Yes very weird but also very similar to what some of the proposals are looking at for the USN's Frigate.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 16:28

not everything needs to be a 7500t behemoth packed with deep length ABM weapons.

these things will be built in bulk and act as escort ships, ASW, anti mine, anti piracy ships, littoral warfare ships and such.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 17:07

That is understandable but by most modern standards this appears to be a well equipped Frigate, with a displacement a good 40% less than the Fremm. For example, it is very much in line with the largest trade Lockheed ran for its upgunned-LCS.

Image

There is a contrast that is appearing in this size with many western navies preffering larger and larger frigates because buying large destroyers is no longer affordable or sustainable from a manning perspective so they have shifted many missions on to frigates adding size, weight and mission creep. These are essentially 60-70% as capable as a destroyer but at a price and O&S structure they can sustain. On the other hand other nations feel a need for lighter, smaller frigates that can take over missions where destroyers are an overkill and allow the room in the budget to buy and sustain those destroyers in areas where they are needed.
Last edited by brar_w on 21 Aug 2017 18:20, edited 1 time in total.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 898
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 21 Aug 2017 17:12

Khan sure build her navy ships tough.

Not too much structural damage (well at least visibly) despite being hit by a tanker three times her size..

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 17:28

Photos Show Collision Damage to USS John McCain as Ship Arrives in Singapore; 10 Sailors Still Missing

Photos released by the Navy show the extent of the damage to USS John McCain (DDG-56) as the ship pulled into Changi Naval Base. An oval indentation more than 20 feet wide and seven to eight feet high from the water line can be seen in the port side of the destroyer, suggesting the dimensions of the hole in the ship could be as large as 20 feet by 16 feet. McCain (DDG-56) collided with the Liberian-flagged chemical tanker Alnic MC around 5:24 a.m. on Monday, local time.In contrast to the entrance of USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) into Yokosuka, Japan in June, McCain his riding higher in the water, suggesting McCain may have taken on less water.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2017 18:38

Full article at source -

USN plans 'raid' upgrade ECP for RAM Block 2



The US Navy (USN) has revealed plans for a further update of the RIM-116C Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Block 2 ship self-defence missile, as part of efforts to improve performance against complex multi-missile raids.

Known as the RAM Block 2B Raid Engineering Change Proposal (ECP), the upgrade embodiment will introduce an upgraded seeker and missile-to-missile link (MML) capability.

Achieving initial operational capability (IOC) in May 2015, the RAM Block 2 missile represents a substantial improvement over RAM Block 1 through the incorporation of kinematic and sensor upgrades, designed to expand the missile's engagement envelope, so as to defeat more manoeuvrable and higher-speed anti-ship cruise missiles. Raytheon Missile Systems, and the RAM-System GmbH consortium of Diehl BGT and MBDA Deutschland GmbH in Germany, are prime contractors and co-operating partners for the RAM programme.

RAM uses dual-mode (passive radio frequency [RF]/infrared [IR]) guidance in a lock-on after launch mode. The Block 2 upgrade significantly expands the missile's effective engagement envelope by introducing a larger dual-thrust rocket motor and independent four-canard control actuator system, to increase effective range by about 50% and deliver a three-fold improvement in manoeuvrability. The system also incorporates an enhanced passive RF seeker, and a digital autopilot.

The USN identified a need to further improve RAM overall Probability of Raid Annihilation (PRA) performance against complex threat scenarios following a 2015 test known as A5-1. Details of this event – which involved a multiple RAM live-firing as part of testing of the Ship Self-Defence System (SSDS) Mk 2 combat system – remain classified, but it has been acknowledged that the test revealed performance deficiencies in complex multi-threat scenarios.

A first measure to improve PRA is the roll-out of the RAM Block 2A Fire Control Loop Improvement Project (FCLIP) to the SSDS Mk 2 combat system. FCLIP introduces software-only modifications to the missile, launcher, and combat system interface protocols to improve raid performance.

The RAM Block 2B Raid ECP forms the next part of the multi-phase upgrade plan. Budget item-justification documents from May 2017 state that Raytheon received an initial USD10-million contract in September 2016 to commence Raid ECP engineering, with a further USD4.6 million awarded by NAVSEA in February 2017. A further USD26.8 million in funding is planned for award to Raytheon under the fiscal year (FY) 2018 budget proposal.
A NAVSEA spokesperson told Jane's, "While still very early in the development process, it is anticipated that the MML will provide additional data that can be used by the missile for improved target acquisition," adding: "The RAM weapon system is pursuing an improved IR seeker."

According to the Department of Defense's FY 2018 budget proposal, the RAM Block 2B Raid ECP "will provide an upgraded seeker and [MML] capability to counter emerging complex raid threats". Development and testing is planned to run through to FY 2022.

Chinmay
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:25

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Chinmay » 21 Aug 2017 20:08

Associated Press reporting that the USN boss has ordered a Pacific Fleet investigation.

Prithwiraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Prithwiraj » 21 Aug 2017 21:21

US Navy Ordered worldwide operational pause after latest incident. Don't know what it means actually though.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2017 22:50

A 1 day pause to review and reiterate procedures thats all

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47919
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2017 00:38

Shows the mettle of Adm.(R) D.K. Joshi. IN who resigned after the submarine fire.

Lets see what happens.

If small fry get fired its same old, same old.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17642
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2017 12:31

Rather severe,should be limited to the ops in the region, as there are no accidents in the Atlantic/Meditt. theatres.As I mentioned in another post,merchantmen at night transiting congested waters,narrow straits,should be better lit up at the bows and stern-something similar the way civil aircraft have their tails lit up at night showing off their logos which were found to be v.helpful in avoiding collisions in the ground and air.

The Chinese seem to have put a curse on the warship after it v.recently defied them and sailed around the disputed (by China) atolls/reefs illegally occupied by Chinese forces.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... oil-tanker
Pentagon orders temporary halt to US navy operations after second collision
Full safety review ordered as 10 sailors are missing and five hurt after USS John S McCain collided with oil tanker off Singapore, in second collision in two months

Julian Borger in Washington, Martin Farrer and Oliver Holmes
Monday 21 August 2017
The Pentagon has ordered a temporary halt to US navy operations around the world and a full safety review, after the second serious collision in two months involving its ships in the Pacific.

Ten American sailors are missing and five injured after the guided-missile destroyer USS John S McCain collided with an oil tanker off the coast of Singapore early on Monday morning local time. Seven sailors died in June when the USS Fitzgerald and a container ship hit each other in waters off Japan, in an accident the US navy has conceded was caused by poor leadership and seamanship by senior officers.

“This is the second collision in three months and is the last in a series of incidents in the Pacific theater,” the commander of naval operations, Adm John Richardson, said in a statement. “This trend demands more forceful action.”

Richardson ordered an “operational pause” in fleet operations that is expected to take one day for urgent safety checks while a more comprehensive review gets under way. It is believed fleet commanders have discretion over when to take the one-day pause, according to their own operational needs, but it should be in the next two weeks.

“I want our fleet commanders to get together with their leaders and their commanders to ensure we’re taking all appropriate and immediate actions to ensure safe and effective operations around the world,” Richardson added. The review, he added would assess “the contributing factors, the root causes of these incidents”.

The review comes a tense time in the Pacific, amid an exchange of heated threats between Donald Trump and the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, over Pyongyang’s nuclear and missile programmes. China has been reinforcing its military presence in the South China Sea.

On Monday, Singaporean, Malaysian and US search and rescue teams consisting of patrol ships, helicopters and tugboats were searching the area for the missing crew from the McCain after a collision at about 5.30am local time with the Liberian-flagged Alnic MC east of the straits of Malacca and Singapore.

“Significant damage to the hull resulted in flooding to nearby compartments, including crew berthing, machinery, and communications rooms,” a statement from the US Pacific Fleet said. “Damage control efforts by the crew halted further flooding.”

The head of the Malaysian navy posted a photo of the US ship with damage to its hull.
First photo of damaged USS McCain. From Malaysia Navy. @mykamarul

“There are currently 10 sailors missing and five injured,” the navy statement said.

Analysis What is the US military's presence near North Korea?
The US has nearly 40,000 personnel in Japan and 35,000 in South Korea, and uses Guam as a ‘permanent aircraft carrier’
e
It said four of the injured had been taken by a Singapore navy helicopter to a hospital in Singapore for “non-life threatening injuries” and the fifth injured sailor did not require further medical attention.
“Search and rescue efforts” were under way in coordination with local authorities after the incident at 5.24am local time on Monday.

The US warship had returned “under its own power” to Singapore’s Changi naval base, the navy statement said, where it had been due for a routine port visit.
The statement gave no other details about the missing crew. The incident would be investigated, it said.

The US navy relieved the USS Fitzgerald’s captain of his command and other sailors were punished after the navy found poor seamanship and flaws in keeping watch contributed to the June collision. An investigation into how and why the Fitzgerald collided with the other ship was not finished, but enough details were known to take those actions, the navy said.

“Collisions like these are extremely rare and two in one summer, both from seventh fleet based in Japan, is stunning,” said David Larter, a US navy veteran and naval warfare writer.

The McCain collision was the fourth accident the Pacific fleet has had this year. In January, the cruiser Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay, and in May, another cruiser, Lake Champlain, crashed into a Korean fishing boat in the Sea of Japan.

“The number of breakdowns that have to occur for something like this to happen make them a rare occurrence,” Larter said. “Sailors monitor radars round the clock, they have multiple sailors standing watch on the bridge which also has a radar, and they have at least one lookout posted at the back end of the ship to watch for exactly these kinds of situations.”

The ship, which has seen service in the 2003 Iraq war, the Korean peninsula and Japan, is named after the father and grandfather of the Arizona senator and former naval pilot John McCain, who were both US navy admirals. Senator McCain tweeted that he was praying for the crew.

Trump replied “that’s too bad” in response to shouted questions about the damaged ship from reporters as he returned to the White House after a working holiday at his golf resort in New Jersey, according to pool reports. Trump later tweeted that “thoughts & prayers” were with the sailors aboard McCain.

The Fitzgerald and McCain are both ballistic missile defence (BMD) capable. These ships are seen as an increasingly vital defence against ballistic missile launches from North Korea. Unusually bellicose rhetoric from the US president and his North Korean counterpart this month have stoked fears of a strike.

The Alnic MC is an oil tanker that sails under the Liberian flag. It is 182 metres (600ft) long and has a deadweight tonnage of 50,760. None of its crew were hurt in the incident.

This is how crowded the waters are around Singapore where destroyer USS John S McCain collided with an oil tanker https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... are_btn_tw

Ship tracking websites showed that the Alnic was currently east of Singapore. The ship’s data showed it was “ballasting”, meaning that it was not loaded full of oil for cargo. There were no reports of any oil spills.

The waterways around Singapore are some of the busiest and most important on the planet, carrying around a quarter of all trade in goods and oil.

The US Navy has set up an assistance centre for relatives of the crew. Families can call 011-81-46-816-1728 (international) or 243-1728 (DSN on base).

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Aug 2017 13:47

Rather severe,should be limited to the ops in the region, as there are no accidents in the Atlantic/Meditt.


The intentions were/are to clearly review procedures, practices, readiness, and resources fleet wide and not limited to a particular AOR. The site of the damage and where the commercial vessel actually struck is atypical when compared to the few collisions of the recent past so the preliminary findings will be interesting. Initial, unconfirmed reports coming in point to a steering loss that may have hampered its abilities to some extent. If that is the case it does help answer some of the questions. Meanwhile the Malaysian navy has uncovered the body of a dead sailor..RIP.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7516
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 22 Aug 2017 17:10

Chinmay wrote:^ Looks rather lightweight for a destroyer, considering that almost all their current fleet displaces a lot more and are quite capable ships. Most modern frigates displace a lot more.


Iirc, the Japanese don't have a word for frigate. So all their small ships guided missil ships are classified as destroyers. Even though they will perform the role of a frigate.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60363
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Aug 2017 17:31

if 2 indian DDGs had been broadsided imagine the media and ignorant comments and #blowtomodi narrative

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Aug 2017 17:36

Leave it to Sam Lagrone to get the story right -

Chain of Incidents Involving U.S. Navy Warships in the Western Pacific Raise Readiness, Training Questions

A former destroyer commander said the pause would probably involve a day or two of training aboard ships, similar to a safety stand down.

“Watch teams that are not on watch are sitting down and going through the rules, regulations and the standing orders and all the things that govern the way that we’re supposed to be doing business,” former guided missile destroyer commander Bryan McGrath told USNI News on Monday.
“If you’re not sitting on station getting ready to track a North Korean missile, if you’re not in trail of a Chinese submarine, if you’re not conducting a FON op, you will essentially lay to and study all day and talk and have seminars and discussions.”

The pause will reinforce fundamentals in the short-term and the longer-term investigation will evaluate the surface system as a whole.....

“The Navy’s high pace of operations for its overseas-homeported ships impacts crew training and the material condition of these ships—overseas-homeported ships have had lower material condition since 2012 and experienced a worsening trend in overall ship readiness when compared to U.S.- homeported ships,” read a 2015 Government Accountability Office report on the Navy’s forward deployed forces in Europe and the Western Pacific.

“To meet the increasing demands of combatant commanders for forward presence in recent years, the Navy has extended deployments; increased operational tempos; and shortened, eliminated, or deferred training and maintenance. The Navy has also assigned more surface combatants and amphibious warfare ships to overseas homeports.”

Naval analyst Bryan Clark told USNI News on Monday that as the total number of the ships operating in the Western Pacific over the last decade has gone down, the operational tempo has remained the same or increased in certain areas.“I would offer that in the surface community – and we’ve been talking for a long time — that the surface community has been overused,” Clark, with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Analysis, said.
“The question the Navy has to wrestle with is we ask these ships to do more deployment time and therefore they have less time for training and preparation than they have in the past. The fleet training time has been reduced 20 to 25 percent over the last decade and yet we’re deploying the same number of ships overseas at any given day. If these ships are working 25 percent harder, where did that time come from?”

As to the volume of incidents and collisions, “nothing comes close to this,” McGrath said.
“I do believe if you back along the last 30 years of incidents and you chart them on a time versus incident [chart] you’ll find that they cluster and I can’t explain that. I’m not prepared to say that these are not coincidental but I think you have to rule that out.”

The Navy’s look into operations around the forward force in Japan is similar to a holistic look the submarine community took at its operations and training prompted by a spate of grounding and collisions about 15 years ago, Clark told USNI News.

“In the submarine force we had a series of incidents with USS Hartford and USS Jacksonville – it wasn’t quite as close together – but we had a series of submarine related collisions and groundings over a three-year period,” Clark said.
“There was a similar investigation and soul-searching to figure out what’s going on. A lot of it came down to some systemic problems where there was a realization that we were not providing adequate time for training in-between deployments. Ships were being short-cycled a little bit when they were doing local operations.”




As a matter of policy the previous administration had aggressively raided readiness and O&S accounts to protect modernization, R&D and S&T under a sequestered budget made worst by multiple CRs. Mattis has attempted to strike more balance by addressing short-medium term equipment and manpower readiness in the Navy aviation and surface warfare communities, but there is little power within the executive branch since it is a legislative matter.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3713
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 22 Aug 2017 22:37



'13 report, but looks like their SSN went 45 way.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 23 Aug 2017 06:47

Navy officials declined to comment. But two U.S. officials familiar with the matter said that Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, the three-star commander of the U.S. Seventh Fleet in Yokosuka, Japan, will be relieved of command on Wednesday in connection with four collisions since January, including two fatal ones.

Vice Adm. Aucoin was expected to retire in coming weeks, but under the Navy’s tradition of public accountability, commanders or ship captains are dismissed as soon as their superiors lose confidence in their leadership.

His expected removal—by the commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet, Adm. Scott Swift —doesn’t represent a specific finding of fault against Vice Adm. Aucoin. Navy officials are investigating the role that training, manning and other internal fleet processes may have played in the collisions.

Source : WSJ

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17642
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2017 12:09

I feel sorry for Adm.Aucoin.The warship's commander should be the one primarily responsible for any penalty,and an inquiry hasn't even started! Supposing it is found to be the fault of the merchantman? Will the fleet commander be summoned back?! matters would be different had for argument's sake ,let's say that he ordered the DDG to forcefully challenge Chinese warships in the disputed waters leading to a collision with a PLAN vessel.he too isn't responsible if it was a result of poor training skills. That's the responsibility of trg. command,at least in other navies it would reflect upon that entity and those who trained the skipper of the DDG if it is found that he amd/or his crewmen were at fault.Again,did Adm. Aucoin appoint both commanders of the two DDGs that were involved in the collisions? There are many unanswered Qs,but the USN has found its sacrificial goat. What's going to be fun if there is yet another incident in the immediate future after the good Adm. has been shunted out.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -collision
US navy to relieve 7th Fleet commander of duty after series of collisions
Removal of three star admiral Joseph Aucoin comes after two high-profile collisions involving navy ships which has left up to 17 dead
The damaged USS John McCain is docked next to USS America at Changi Naval Base in Singapore.
The damaged USS John McCain is docked next to USS America at Changi Naval Base in Singapore. Photograph: STRINGER/Reuters
Wednesday 23 August 2017
The US navy is to relieve the commander of the 7th Fleet of duty following a series of collisions in Asia according to multiple reports.

Three star admiral Joseph Aucoin will be removed from his role, an official told Reuters.
USS John S McCain: human remains found in search for missing sailors
“An expedited change in leadership was needed,” the official said, explaining the thinking behind the decision.

The Navy declined comment on any plans to relieve Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin, which was first reported by the Wall Street Journal and has since been carried by multiple US outlets.

The news comes after a collision involving the USS John McCain last week that left ten sailors missing. In June the USS Fitzgerald crashed into a cargo ship, leaving seven US sailors dead.

US navy divers have found human remains inside the sealed compartments of a warship that was hit by an oil tanker off the coast of Singapore, the commander of the US Pacific fleet has said.

Admiral Scott Swift said the Malaysian navy, which is helping with the search, had also reported finding a body. He said the US navy was in the process of establishing whether any of the remains could be identified as one of 10 sailors reported missing after the incident.

Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin, Commander of the US 7th Fleet during a press conference at Yokosuka Naval Base in Yokosuka, south of Tokyo, Japan.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest

The USS John S McCain and the Alnic MC tanker collided as the warship was nearing Singapore for a routine port call. The collision tore a hole in the ship’s port side at the waterline, flooding compartments that included a crew sleeping area.

On Tuesday, ships and aircraft from an international search-and-rescue operation were still looking for the missing sailors in an area to the east of Singapore and the Malaysia peninsula near to where the accident took place.

With the ship now docked in Singapore, US navy and marine divers joined the search, moving into rooms of the ship that had been damaged and sealed off.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 23 Aug 2017 14:17

Preliminary results however have likely indicated a particular line of cause that they must be exploring. Some of this has been reported already. It is quite clear that the 7th fleet boss is being relieved not just for this incidents but for a string of incidents in the recent months on the vessels in his fleet that have now on two instances resulted in casualties. This is a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation..

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1673
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Aug 2017 14:26

brar_w wrote:Preliminary results however have likely indicated a particular line of cause that they must be exploring. Some of this has been reported already. It is quite clear that the 7th fleet boss is being relieved not just for this incidents but for a string of incidents in the recent months on the vessels in his fleet that have now on two instances resulted in casualties. This is a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation..



It is well known that white males in Japan and East Asia are on happy hunting grounds. Too much "luv you long time" with japani/oriental girlies and easy life in general at those bases creating lax discipline?

You don't see the same number of accidents in European and Persian Gulf waters which are also congested.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5915
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 23 Aug 2017 14:36

I don't know the details of the key differences in how the discipline and work ethic goes across the COCOMs but from what we know (actual facts), the PACOM has maintained a fairly high ops tempo and since their budget has not been increased to support such a sustained forward presence they have had to raid other accounts, resort to longer deployments and reduce the training, shifting that towards maintaining forward readiness.The new 7th fleet commander has a nuclear submarine background much like the CNO so expect a likely overhaul of procedures and practices including buying back some of the lost training time.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aditya_V, deWalker, Kersi, Krishna_V, Sagrawal, Yogesh and 50 guests