International Naval News & Discussion

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NRao
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Boeing Awarded Contract for Five P-8A Aircraft for Germany

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ARLINGTON, Va. —The U.S. Navy awarded Boeing a production contract for five P-8A Poseidon aircraft for Germany, the company said Sept. 28. First deliveries are slated to begin in 2024 when the P-8A Poseidon will eventually replace Germany’s fleet of P-3C Orion aircraft.

“We’re pleased to have finalized this sale to Germany and to expand our footprint in-country by bringing the P-8A and its unique multi-mission capabilities to the German Navy,” said Michael Hostetter, vice president, Boeing Defense, Space & Security, Germany. “The P-8 will ensure the German Navy’s ability to perform long-range maritime surveillance missions and will play a pivotal role in the region by leveraging existing infrastructure in Europe and full interoperability with NATO’s most advanced assets.”

German industry is a critical partner with the P-8A Poseidon program. By working with local partners, Boeing will provide support, training and maintenance solutions that will bring the highest operational availability to fulfill the German Navy’s missions. On June 17, Boeing signed agreements with ESG Elektroniksystem-und Logistik-GmbH and Lufthansa Technik AG to collaborate in systems integration, training, and sustainment work. German companies that currently supply parts for the P-8A include Aircraft Philipp Group GmbH, Aljo Aluminium-Bau Jonuscheit GmbH and Nord-Micro GmbH.

“With strategic agreements and industry partnerships already in place, we stand ready to deliver a robust sustainment package for the German Navy’s P-8A fleet,” said Dr. Michael Haidinger, president, Boeing Germany, Central & Eastern Europe, Benelux and Nordics. “Together with the German Navy, the Federal Ministry of Defense and local industry, we will ensure maximum operational availability that will allow the German Navy to meet the full range of its maritime challenges.”

Deployed around the world with more than 135 aircraft in service, and over 350,000 collective mishap free flight hours, the P-8A will significantly advance Germany’s antisubmarine warfare, antisurface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance and search and rescue mission capabilities.

Germany is the eighth nation to have acquired the P-8A, joining the United States, Australia, India, the United Kingdom, Norway, Korea and New Zealand.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Japan’s converted helicopter ship to host F-35B flight trials

Japan-based U.S. Marine Corps F-35 jets will conduct flying operations from a Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force helicopter carrier that is being converted to operate the fifth-generation fighter jet.

Japan’s Ministry of Defense said in a Sept. 30 news release that the F-35Bs, which are capable of Short Take Off and Vertical Landings, or STOVL, will conduct landing and take-off tests on the JS Izumo between the 3rd and 7th of October.

The flight operations will be conducted somewhere in the Pacific Ocean off Japan, and will be used to verify modifications to the flight deck that will allow the ship to operate the Lockheed Martin-made aircraft.

The U.S. ally has a requirement for 42 F-35Bs out of a total of 157 F-35s it is acquiring. It already has eight STOVL jets on contract for delivery beginning in 2024, with the latest Japanese defense budget allocating funding for a further four aircraft in the 2022 fiscal year.
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Video:

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Estonia Selects Blue Spear Anti-Ship Missile For Coastal Batteries
Estonian Centre for Defence Investment (ECDI) has signed a contract with Proteus Advanced Systems Pte. Ltd., a joint venture company of Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) and ST Engineering Land Systems Ltd. (ST), to equip the Estonian Defence Forces with Blue Spear (5G SSM) missile systems
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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And the French have put out their official statement on the whole AUKUS affair. This is from the twitter account of the Spokesperson of Ministry for the Armed Forces of France. Click on link below to read the twitter thread. A must read!

https://twitter.com/HerveGrandjean/stat ... 14467?s=20 ---> In the last few days, everything and its opposite has been said about the Australian submarine contract. The safety of Australians and the performance of our industrialists deserve better than peremptory statements. A thread to better understand the Australian submarine affair.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/HerveGrandjean/stat ... 14467?s=20 ---> In the last few days, everything and its opposite has been said about the Australian submarine contract. The safety of Australians and the performance of our industrialists deserve better than peremptory statements. A thread to better understand the Australian submarine affair...

Thread:

In many ways, the performance of the Attack submarine offered by France to the Australians was better than that offered by a nuclear submarine.
Perhaps this is a cryptic attempt at getting the French Navy to reconsider its decision to go for nuclear propulsion on the Suffren class? :rotfl:
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Off note., why didn't the Aussies ask the French for nuclear powered subs if they didn't want the conventional subs ?

i like this quote :mrgreen: "Another fact is AU behaving like the kind of customer who buys a TV, praises the seller while asking their bank to block the transaction because they wanted a laptop."
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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kit wrote:Off note., why didn't the Aussies ask the French for nuclear powered subs if they didn't want the conventional subs ?
Probably several reasons but a few could be that they didn't like what they were able to jointly achieve with the program up to that point (with likely shared blame) and the way it was originally structured (separate follow on contract extensions for each phase) allowed them to reconsider if they changed their mind or didn't think the program was performing to their expectations. Secondly, if the tough decision to go nuclear was taken strategically, then why wouldn't they go to the UK or USA the two partners that they have a deeper security relationship with, deeper procurement and R&D relationship with, and where they will benefit from common hardware, infrastructure, training and doctrine allowing compatibility and shared infrastructure? Both were excluded from originally being considered because they didn't do non nuclear subs.Being able to share infra with US SSN's, or UK SSN's, jointly train, and deploy is a huge benefit. The French option would only have had a US combat system. The entire nuke infra and engineering would be different. AUKUS will see US SSN's dock in Australia, and probably even US bombers being regularly rotated from there. It is much beyond the sub deal. So if they had already decided to go on a 15-20 year journey to become a nuclear submarine operator, then why not go with the ones with whom they are expected to work more closely over the next 3-5 decades, including deeper investments into having their forces rotate through Australia?
Australia’s prime minister, Scott Morrison, said Sunday that it had “deep and grave” concerns about the diesel-powered submarines it planned to buy from France — and that Paris knew that well before Canberra abruptly canceled the deal in favor of sharing nuclear submarine technology with the United States and Britain.

Morrison was pushing back on criticism from France that Australia left the country in the lurch by secretly negotiating the new three-nation pact, called AUKUS, even as he acknowledged telling France about the new deal only on the day it was announced.

“I think they would have had every reason to know that we had deep and grave concerns that the capability being delivered by the Attack Class submarine was not going to meet our strategic interests,” Morrison told reporters Sunday.

“This is an issue that had been raised by me directly some months ago and we continued to talk those issues through, including by defense ministers and others.” LINK
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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JMSDF has released a second video of the historic F-35B landing trials on Izumo.

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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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French Suffren class sub. The ops control room looks fantastic!

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Report: SeaFuture 2021 Day 3 International Naval and Maritime defense Exhibition La Spezia Italy

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https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/1 ... 61699?s=20 ---> France's new nuclear-powered attack submarine SUFFREN S635 continues in lengthy first-of-class trials - more than 120 days at sea this year alone. Naval journalist Xavier Vavasseur scored a rare visit to the sub and provides great detail of the new boat.

Great Article by Xavier Vavasseur ---> https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... submarine/

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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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South Korea’s First Nuclear Submarine Looks Closer
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ks-closer/
15 Dec 2021

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The first Dreadnought Class submarine will enter service in the early 2030s
http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/na ... 2030s.html
21 Dec 2021
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https://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/1 ... 76064?s=20 ---> U.S. State Dept has approved the sale to France of Electromagnetic Catapult (EMALS) and advanced arrestor gear for use on its future aircraft carrier in a deal valued at $1.321 billion.

More Info ---> https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... d-advanced

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They've gone for just two EMALS launchers on the PANG unlike 4 launchers on the Ford class.
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U.S. Navy’s First DDG 51 Flight III Destroyer Starts SPY-6 Radar Testing And Training

The U.S. Navy's first DDG-51 Flight III destroyer, the future USS Jack H Lucas (DDG-125) has achieved "light off" on its AEGIS Combat System. This marks the beginning of on-board system testing and crew training for the ship and its AN/SPY-6(V)1 Air and Missile Defense Radar (AMDR).
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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brar_w wrote:They've gone for just two EMALS launchers on the PANG unlike 4 launchers on the Ford class.
Not really all that surprising. As inspite of substantially larger physical size over the current CDG. The air group will not be larger when compared with the CDG.
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Why is this program being shut down? Not adequate performance?

Crowsnest to be retired by decades’ end
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/c ... cades-end/
12 May 2021
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Rakesh wrote:Why is this program being shut down? Not adequate performance?

Crowsnest to be retired by decades’ end
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/c ... cades-end/
12 May 2021
Inadequate performance from the sensor and the platform. They'll need something better with longer Time on Station, a more powerful radar, and the ability to fly higher.
Having a US Marine F-35B squadron onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth was helpful not just for bringing additional capacity, supplying the majority of 18 F-35Bs onboard, but as an opportunity for the RAF pilots to learn from the Marines given their greater experience with the aircraft, including optimising its potential as a networked sensor. On that front, the experimental deployment of the Royal Navy’s Crowsnest airborne early warning system, on HMS Queen Elizabeth’s Merlin helicopters, appears to have fallen below expectations. That is not surprising given that Crowsnest was rushed into service for the CSG21 deployment. One solution could be simply to buy more F-35Bs. LINK
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Post by Rakesh »

Brar, thank you for that info.

Just wondering about the last line in the above article ---> "One solution could be simply to buy more F-35Bs."

Unless I am reading this incorrectly, are they suggesting to buy additional F-35s to replace the Crowsnest in the AEW role?
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I think that was meant in relation to a reconstituted air-wing where fewer Crowsnest are available or deployed and greater quantities of F-35B's are sent out and they just rely on US Navy to provide them the early warning they need. In the future an unmanned platform can perhaps be used to network sensor data from various strike group elements (which would generally include USN AEGIS ships and at times in European air-defense frigates capable of exchanging data with AEGIS) using BLOS links. Their choices are rather limited here given platforms they have to chose from.
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Cyrano wrote:....
could be due to the dust particles in the Air
Last edited by Rakesh on 04 Feb 2022 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Cyrano wrote:...
If the ship was crippled due to PRC action. This is an act of war.

A non response to such an act totally destroys credibility of AUKUS.

Quad, is not a military alliance as of yet. So this has no bearing on that.
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AUKUS is not a military alliance yet either. It is a security and technology pact between nations that already have other bi/multi-lateral agreements that cover defense and have other security arrangements (A(NZ)US, NATO etc) in place. An engineering/electrical casualty isn't uncommon on ships. No idea who is trying to connect fictional dots and develop a Chinese connection but there is no evidence of that at all that I've come across.
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https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/sta ... ziz2Dh4cAA --> Levitate.

https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1 ... ziz2Dh4cAA ---> This is an F-35B of the Italian Navy photographed for the 2022 calendar.

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This is offer a major boost to the South Korean Navy's air and missile defense capability -

SM-6 for South Korean KDX-III Destroyers

South Korea has approved a project to purchase Standard Missile 6 (SM-6) multi-mission missiles via the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme to arm its KDX-III Aegis-equipped destroyers.

The Defense Project Promotion Committee decided the project, budgeted at KRW760 billion ($600 million), will begin next year and be completed by 2031, according to a 27 April announcement by the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA).

Acquisition of the Raytheon long-range system is meant to enhance anti-surface warfare and air defence capabilities, including cruise and ballistic missiles. The South Korean navy already operates three KDX-III Batch I destroyers, the last of which was commissioned in 2012. Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) is currently building the first of three Batch II vessels, after securing a KRW676.6 billion contract in October 2019 for detailed design and build. Batch-II vessels are set to be larger, featuring more advanced systems and armament than their predecessors, including an improved ballistic missile defence capability and a more powerful sonar to detect and track submarines at longer ranges. Under this programme, a new destroyer is set to be delivered every two years, with the first ship scheduled to be launched in the second half of this year and delivered to the navy in November 2024.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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AUKUS fallout: double-dealing and deception came at a diplomatic cost
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aukus-f ... 5al95.html
15 May 2022
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Very interesting read! Glad to be with such partners in the Quad !
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Cyrano wrote:Very interesting read! Glad to be with such partners in the Quad !
Exactly the reason why quad will not be a military alliance.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Cyrano wrote:Very interesting read! Glad to be with such partners in the Quad !
Perfidious albions and their descendants. Biden has English/Irish (and a little bit of French) ancestry. We should never trust Atlantists of the US. Biden is firmly in that camp.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

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Vayutuvan wrote:
Cyrano wrote:Very interesting read! Glad to be with such partners in the Quad !
Perfidious albions and their descendants. Biden has English/Irish (and a little bit of French) ancestry. We should never trust Atlantists of the US. Biden is firmly in that camp.
The perfidy is that the French were offering Aus a diesel-electric sub as the "future of submarine warfare" for the small price of $90B. The French were outmanoeuvred and the Aussies got a better submarine. I have worked on multinational projects with the French and they are always the awkward party, wanting only their proposals to be considered.

In the recent past we have seen the behaviour of the French in forcing the EU to place orders for 300million doses of the Sanofi Covid19 vaccine which was under development but was not even at Stage 1 testing. They fought against the AZ vaccine (which is Anglo-Swedish) and blocked its use and had to pay 10 times the price for Pfizer/Moderna vaccine in the end. That is Macroon's France.
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All French mil tech firms Dassault, Safran, Thalès, Airbus etc are listed co s,

The Naval Group is the only one 62.49% owned by French govt, 35% by Thalès. They are subject to all kinds of dysfunctional crap by the govt

Why would France offer N subs when they weren't asked, and Aus has zero N expertise civil or military ?

A sub's cost is not just propulsion but a bunch of sensors, systems, training, support, armaments etc etc . Aus has bought itself some vaporware I think.

Re the fukkups they did in covid - could you share some sources in the France or covid thread please.

In any case it has nothing to with the sub deal.
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https://www.savunmahaber.com/en/haluk-b ... -analysis/

In Turkey, at Gölcük Shipyard, 3 AY-class, 4 PREVEZE-class and 4 GÜR-class conventional submarines have been built under German license since the 1980s. Finally, 6 REIS-class submarines, called Type-214TN in the international literature, are being built at Gölcük Shipyard.[11] During this whole process, sufficient experience and knowledge has been gained on a difficult and special method of shipbuilding. Besides, various projects such as GENESİS (Gemi ENtegrE Savaş İdare Sistemi) CMS, MÜREN (Millî Üretim Entegre Sualtı Savaş Yönetim Sistemi) submarine CMS, and all other critical mission software have become developable in Turkey. In addition, torpedoes and guided missiles have also been developed nationally. The only remaining critical need is the construction or supply of the nuclear power reactor.

The Turkish Atomic Energy Authority is the institution responsible for determining all kinds of policies related to nuclear energy in Turkey. Among the duties of the institution established in 1956;

To prepare national policy and strategy proposals to be followed in the use of nuclear energy technologies for the benefit of the country,
To carry out or have carried out all kinds of research, development, innovation, design, technology acquisition, production, testing, domestication works that will make it possible to benefit from nuclear energy, radiation, and accelerator technologies in the scientific, technical, and economic development of the country,
Cooperating with public institutions and organisations, universities and private sector organisations and carrying out joint projects in this context.[12]
There are departments and institutes of higher education in nuclear energy, the oldest being the Nuclear Energy Engineering Department of Hacettepe University in Turkey. In addition, nuclear reactors have been operated for training and research purposes. Of these, there are 2 reactors at Çekmece Nuclear Research and Training Centre, and a research reactor (Triga Mark II) at the ITU Energy Institute. Meanwhile, the first unit of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, which is under construction, is expected to enter into service in 2023. In conclusion we can say that Turkey has sufficient staff, infrastructure, knowledge and experience in the operation and management of nuclear energy.

National Submarine

Turkey aims to develop its own unique submarine within the scope of the National Submarine (MILDEN) project based on the capabilities gained in the field of defence industry. Great effort, time and resources will be spent for the works to be done within the scope of the project. The propulsion system shall constitute one of the basic factors in the design of the ship. Once the diesel-electric propulsion system is initially decided, it will not be possible to switch to the nuclear propulsion system later on. Therefore, it should be considered very carefully when deciding on the propulsion system. It is most desirable that the capability to be acquired with MILDEN will pay off the intensive effort that will be spent during the realization of the project. For this reason, the advantages of constructing a couple of nuclear submarines rather than a large number of conventional submarine, and the additional operational capabilities to be gained with the “strategic and psychological deterrence” to be obtained should be taken into account.

It can be argued that nuclear power submarines have high costs. Considering the cost issue from open sources, there are different figures such as $377 million for the French Rubis class nuclear submarine, $1.59 billion for the US Los Angeles class submarine, $2.5 billion for the UK Astute class submarine, and $800 million for Russia’s Yasen class submarine. Factors such as the size, technology, and the country in which the ship was built are effective in this regard. Especially the high labour costs in the western countries are noteworthy in price differences. In open sources, the cost of a conventional diesel-electric submarine with air independent propulsion (AIP) system is around 500 million dollars.

When we compare the operational efficiency, it is obvious that a nuclear submarine can be effective over a much larger area than conventional submarines, can change patrol areas very quickly and reach distant places faster.

Considering the MILGEM project, we can estimate that a period of at least 8-10 years may be required for ship design; and the construction of a submarine can be completed in 5 years. In other words, if launched today, the first ship will be ready 15 years later. The personnel such as officers, engineers, operators, technicians in the navy can be trained in nuclear energy, and the necessary infrastructures and facilities can be prepared during this time. The nuclear reactor needed for the ship could be developed domestically with some technology transfer, or procured from abroad just like nuclear power plants.

Conclusion

As a result, we can assert that it will be more effective with one or two nuclear submarines in large areas such as the Mediterranean; otherwise a large number of conventional submarines may be needed for a mission of similar efficiency. Considering the total cost and long construction durations of several conventional submarines, a medium-size nuclear submarine with a maximum of 1-1.5 billion dollars is thought to be both much more cost-effective and “deterrent at a game-changing level“. In addition, the submarine support of Offshore Task Force/Group’s will be more effective with nuclear submarine within the framework of the sea control and power projection strategy.

The Turkish Submarine Fleet is one of the most powerful conventional submarine fleets in the Mediterranean as can be understood from open sources.[13] In particular, it is very effective in the surrounding seas and provides high deterrence. On the other hand, nuclear submarines have a “game changer” feature in naval operations and in diplomacy. Therefore, it would be more beneficial to direct efforts towards a platform that will provide additional capabilities and also “strategic and psychological deterrence” rather than an existing submarine type. With the addition of several nuclear submarines to the existing conventional submarine fleet, the advantages of both types can be combined and superior underwater dominance can be achieved in any geography, including overseas operations. The construction of existing German designs that have proven themselves can continue if the need for conventional submarines prevails in the future. We consider that there is no marginal benefit of spending so much time and effort building a similar type of conventional submarine.

Since the design process of a submarine, whether nuclear or conventional, takes a very long time, it can be considered to obtain a ready-made design and build it in Turkey just like the case in Anatolian amphibious assault ship. In this way, approximately 10 years of time required for the design will be saved.

Consequently, it should be aimed to build nuclear-powered attack submarines that can operate in vast operational areas without any shortage of range, survival and fuel and that can attack surface and land targets with torpedoes and missiles; therefore, the nuclear powered submarine (SSN/SSGN) alternative should seriously be taken into consideration in MILDEN design.

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Turkey Launches Second Reis-Class Type 214 AIP Submarine
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:AUKUS fallout: double-dealing and deception came at a diplomatic cost
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aukus-f ... 5al95.html
15 May 2022
All said and done the enormous cost of the conventional barracuda line was the fault line right from the beginning., one rumour has it that the deal was sealed over wine and women at a French resort and the Aussies felt they were paying for a white elephant that was not even white (nuclear) to start with. Tbh for all the hoopla the deal was a nonstarter right from the beginning and had Morrison looking for alternatives. Who.,did the French think Australia was .. India ?? :((
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Cyrano wrote:All French mil tech firms Dassault, Safran, Thalès, Airbus etc are listed co s,

The Naval Group is the only one 62.49% owned by French govt, 35% by Thalès. They are subject to all kinds of dysfunctional crap by the govt

Why would France offer N subs when they weren't asked, and Aus has zero N expertise civil or military ?

A sub's cost is not just propulsion but a bunch of sensors, systems, training, support, armaments etc etc . Aus has bought itself some vaporware I think.

Re the fukkups they did in covid - could you share some sources in the France or covid thread please.

In any case it has nothing to with the sub deal.
I did not mention any of the French Mil-Tech firms so what has being listed companies got to do with it? As you point out Naval Group is owned by the French government. I do not blame the French Government for doing their best to support their industry, but they should also give value for money and not risk the lives of their citizens bu for example delaying vaccination.

The original cost of the Shortfin Barracuda project was about US$35B in 2016. By 2021 it had risen beyond US$90B but was being promoted as "the future of attack submarines". The fact that the Aus Navy has not operated nuclear subs does not come into it. One has to begin sometime, and they already had experience of conventional subs and infra. You are right, the Aus Gov had been sold vapourware including price rises. In five years no metal had been cut.

Regarding the Covid vaccine saga, it has been discussed on the Wuhan virus thread more than a year ago. Please look it up but you seem to have a short memory (I presume you live in France) because it was in all the media in the EU at that time. I mentioned it to illustrate that France does go out of its way to sabotage it supposed allies as well.
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Re: International Naval News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

I dont really follow your arguments saar... may be I'm not as well informed or able to figure out the points you're trying to make
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