International Naval News & Discussion

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 May 2009 13:10

You’ve read right but not drawing the right conclusions. The control room stays in the same location under the sail, only moves a level down from the narrower part of cross section in top deck to wider part of cross section in middle deck

Earlier narrower cross section based CIC on top deck
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... way_lg.jpg

Latter wider cross section based CIC on middle deck
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... way_lg.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 May 2009 14:21

Tsarkar, indeed point taken.

Few more questions

If one looks at the Sail of the new Borei SSBN you will find the front of the sail tapered forward , any unique advantage of such sail ?

Image Sail of Borei
Close up of Sail

Although the sail of western submarines tend to be rectangular, slimmer and smooth sail , the Sierra 2 on the contrary has a Blunt thick sail any unique advantage there ?

The thickness perhaps is due to the presence of twin escape pressurized pod but the bluntness of the forward of sail is interesting , common understanding is it would cause more drag
Sail Sierra2

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 May 2009 15:36

Very intersting report on the German-Greek spat over the U-214s that Greece ordered.The first was rejected by the Greeks who found the sub had excessive rolling in bad weather when on the surface.They refused to accept the sub which was languishing at port,but have agreed to take the next three.This sub is the same that Pak ahs been hunkering after and the Germans are willing to take the first sub back because of interest from a foreign buyer.Could it be Pak? Pak is now flush with money thanks to the US of A and hopes to build the same subs at home as Turkey is doing.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 009_107590

Submarine deal set to surface
Greece is close to agreeing to a deal with Germany that could lead to the resolution of a dispute over a batch of faulty submarines, which has put a severe strain on relations between the two countries, it was revealed yesterday.....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 May 2009 16:36

Naval spat imminent between NoKo and SoKo/US? China thinks so.Crossposted in NoKo test thread.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Korea.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jun 2009 10:52

Iran commissions 3 more 120t mini "stealth" subs of the "Ghadir" class,bringing its number in this class to 7.

http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats/200 ... 243879812/

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 02 Jun 2009 12:44

Only 8 Russian strategic submarines are combat-ready

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Jun 2009 07:52

Why Does Brazil Need Nuclear Submarines?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jun 2009 15:30

The Nerpa is to be commissioned by Russia in the fall,before its lease to the IN.
Excerpt:

MOSCOW, June 2 (RIA Novosti) - A nuclear attack submarine involved in a fatal accident during sea trials last year will be commissioned by the Russian Navy in the fall and then leased to the Indian Navy, a source said on Tuesday.

Revolutionary new sub communication system "Deep Siren" developed by RN.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/02 ... ren_trial/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jun 2009 12:19

OZ is to get the RN's sub rescue vessel,the LR 5.This is also an urgent requirement for the In,which is to get bdfore the year end,both the Nerpa/Chakra Akula-3 and the ATV in service.The IN will then have 18 conventional (on paper as some are in refit)+2 nuclear powered subs.

www.chinaview.cn 2009-06-04 16:53:41

Excerpt:

Submarine rescue system delivered to Australia
www.chinaview.cn

CANBERRA, June 4 (Xinhua) -- A new submarine rescue system that will cut response time for underwater emergencies was delivered to Australia on Thursday.

The LR5 submarine rescue system from Britain had previously been "on-call" but was on the other side of the world if needed.

"The relocation improves response times and allows the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) to exercise the capability with Collins Class submarines," the Defense Materiel Organization's head of maritime systems Boyd Robinson said.

The LR5 is a manned submersible in operation with the British Royal Navy. It is designed for retrieving sailors from stranded submarines and is capable of rescuing 16 at a time.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jun 2009 19:06

A splendid spat between Adm.Sir Jonathan Band ,head of the RN and the British Army chief and Gen.Sir Richard Dannat,who appears to have been critical of the two new carriers that the RN is planning to build.Jealosuy of a navy which has air pwoer at sea is nothing new.Armies and air forces worlwide have been jealous of their compatriot's chief strike weapon,the carrrier,which has timeand time again provd its worth by being refitted ad nauseum to even serve for a grand total of 50+ years.

Navy boss takes swipe at army of Cold War criticism

The head of the Royal Navy, Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, has taken a broadside at the head of the Army, refuting implications that two new aircraft carriers are "Cold War relics".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... icism.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jun 2009 16:14

The spat between the RN chief and the British Army chief is now turning into a tri-service brawl ,where the chiefs of the RAF and Army are clearly engaged in a conspiracy to try and cut the RN down to size.In an age of shrinking British defence budgets,Gordon Brown accused of sending troops to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq without adequate ammo,protection and vehicles,the RN has future plans of building two large 50,000+ carriers.This has obviously enraged the two other servcies which see their "toys" demanded,being bought in reduced numbers.The army has suffered the ignominy of seeing many of its famous historic regiments disbanded and the RAF is being accused of wanting an over-expensive fighter,the Typhoon only to appease Britain's European partners.The RN on the other hand has plumped for the US's JSF,which has a STOVL capability ideal for the RN's Fleet Air Arm's needs.

For centuries Britian ruled the waves ,as the famous British military anthem "Rule Britannia" proclaimed.True,thanks to the navy,Britain fought of an inavasion from Spain defeating the Spanish armada in Elizabethan times,defeated Napoleon's fleet at the Battle of the Nile and more famously at Trafalgar,which scuppered any plans of invading Britain that he had.In both WW1 and WW2,the RN being more powerful than the German navy enabled Britain to prevent any German invasion too,and in the Falklands,the role of the Sea Harrier from two small ski-jump carriers saw Britain retake the islands after their capture by Argentina.If Britain had an empire where the sun never set,it was solely because of the navy.All other European navies were routed and Britain colonised nations in Africa,Asia and the far east,even unto the Pacific with Australia and New Zealand.The jewel in the crown was India,where the saw off the Portugese,Dutch and French.Had the French supported Gen.Dupleix by sea better,India could've been perhaps a French colony.

This spat has also been seen in India in the past,where the IN has been attcaked by the IAF over its Fleet Air Arm and carrier ambitions.Fortunately,the ridiculous idea that far off naval battles could be won by support from land based aircraft has these days no takers.Happily for us,our three services,though unable to decide upon a combined Chief of Staff,have embarked upon tri-service commands including sharing the nucelar button in turn.The UK spats is becoming ugly and it is going to be very interesting to see what develops especially as there is a fluid political
situation with Gordon Brown experiencinfg severe "Labour" problems!

RAF chief predicts controversial takeover of Royal Naval air power
The head of the RAF, Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, has sparked a major turf war within the armed forces after questioning the future of the Royal Navy's jet aircraft.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... power.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jun 2009 11:38

Those living in Blighty are lucky,as there's a new play based on the "Kursk" tragedy.I intend to see it,and will give a review if I do, end June.Details below:

Kursk: stricken sub that led me into deep waters
A theatre company tells the story of the Kursk submarine tragedy.

'Kursk’ is at the Young Vic, London SE1 (020 7922 2922), until June 27

PS:Oz submariners who are cooks have struck "galley gold",as their pay is astronomical,more than some admirals!Any taker,as the OZ sub fleet is dreadfully undermanned with only one of 6 Collins clas subs able to go to sea.

Galley Gold
June 9, 2009: Yet another shocking revelation about the Australian submarine force is the fact that the cooks onboard these boats make more (about $160,000 a year) than some admirals. It's all about morale

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 90609.aspx

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 13 Jun 2009 06:08

Chinese sub collides with sonar array towed by US Ship

In what a U.S. military official calls an "inadvertent encounter," a Chinese submarine hit an underwater sonar array being towed by the destroyer USS John McCain on Thursday.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2009 13:01

...and the s*itty PLAN scumbags do not even allow the dead to rest in peace ,but steal from then as this report says!

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ilors.html]China accused of secretly salvaging sunken British submarine containing 18 lost sailors [/url

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 13 Jun 2009 21:24

How's that any different from the US raising the stricken Soviet sub and its deads in its Glomar Express experiment?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jun 2009 04:55

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 90617.aspx

Playing Tag With The Chinese

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2009 14:30

As sweet as it gets ..... Borei SSBN

Borei Sailing
Borei Pics1
Blue Sky and Borei

Video of Borei launch ( credits flateric )

Yuri Dolgorukiy - first Borey class (Project 955) SSBN starts sea trials - June 18, 2009

R Nathan · Post by **R Nathan** » 24 Jun 2009 16:39

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... I_mostread

"High-ranking Pakistani officials were behind the killing of eleven French ship-building engineers in Karachi seven years ago, two French judges have ruled.....Until now al-Qaida had been blamed for the bomb attack on a bus in 2002 that killed 11 engineers and three Pakistanis.....

The judges suspected that the Pakistanis were retaliating over a decision by former French President Jacques Chirac, to halt payment to Pakistani officers of millions of pounds in secret commission from an 720 million pounds contract signed in 1994, for three French submarines.

The dead engineers were working on the submarine contract for DCN, the French naval shipbuilding enterprise.

.....the French secret service retaliated after the 2002 attack,

breaking the legs of two Pakistan navy admirals

and killing a lower-ranking officer

.... "

So much for proclaiming no link between the Armed forces and the Terrorist.

You got to love the Frenchies

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 24 Jun 2009 18:10

Austin wrote:As sweet as it gets ..... Borei SSBN
Borei Sailing
Borei Pics1
Blue Sky and Borei

Video of Borei launch ( credits flateric )

Yuri Dolgorukiy - first Borey class (Project 955) SSBN starts sea trials - June 18, 2009

Uncle Sam aaj kal shanti rakh rahe hain.....actually I think sam is a very tolerant person. No power projection off-lately.

Good good...going on the right track. Stealth is the Key. No new ultra innovative vessels. Actually I thought HMS daring was very creative warship. I have not seen things like that coming out from the US.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2009 21:45

Unkil is churning Virginia in various blocks , Unkil does not have a dire need to replace Ohio SSBN but a follow on replacement is under study , Nuclear Detterent is not a top priority in pentagon but War on Terror is , so Virginia and Ohio SSGN are the flavour of the season with their phenomenal Land Attack capability.

Russia has nuclear deterrence as top priority , cannot sustain the widening acoustic advantage of Virginia viz a viz Delta 4 , hence the need for new SSBN. There is another interesting SSGN the Yasen under construction we might see her in 2010.

The Astute class is one good looking sub from UK.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jun 2009 04:16

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 90624.aspx
Sweden's new underwater unmanned robot/torpedo.

Looks Like A Torpedo, Acts Like A Robot
June 24, 2009: Sweden has developed a modular torpedo (AUV62) that operates as a UUV (unmanned underwater vehicle.)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2009 10:35

Yasen model presented to Ivanov ( pics credit Snaik )

Yasen Model

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2009 10:30

IMDS 09 Pics ( via UAZ )

IMDS 01
IMDS 02

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Jun 2009 11:03

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xdRq2QczM

BengalG3
Dont India have Nuke subs?
goeetfuk
no india doesn't even have nukes they have nuclear capibilities

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 28 Jun 2009 16:02

New Russian frigate completes sea trials
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090616/155268478.html
Russia's newest frigate starts final sea trials in Baltic Sea
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090513/155009731.html

Construction has taken almost 19 years due to lack of financing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2009 19:37

Yeah. Russia does not have sufficient funds. She can build something, but not in bulk. And the cost associated with building in bulk is too steep. IMHO, Russia will fade in about 10 years. Her skill set will fade with the lack of funds.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 28 Jun 2009 19:55

NRao wrote:Yeah. Russia does not have sufficient funds. She can build something, but not in bulk. And the cost associated with building in bulk is too steep. IMHO, Russia will fade in about 10 years. Her skill set will fade with the lack of funds.

I think they'll go with a lot more joint projects with India for the very same reason, lack of funds. Which should benefit India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2009 20:44

Some thoughts:

1) Recent trends with the Russians indicate that they are really not willing to part with the latest and greatest.
2) In areas where they are willing to part (AESA) it is my opinion that they really are not that far ahead
3) Since India has not stood still, IMHO, India needs holes filled in her technologies - such as the Kaveri engine. India really does not need entire technology/ies - even AESA. Two issues here: first by finding out what exactly India wants, "they" get to know exactly where India is (not something India wants to reveal), second, India will never want to pay more than it needs to, exception being to cover up (first)
4) There is a need for India - India threat environment is far more real and urgent than that of the Russians. India also tends to react to threats in a totally different way than the Russians, so it is quite natural for India to use her technologies in a way that the Russians may not
5) Which is why I think Israel - today - is a FAR better fit than Russia. Israel has a very similar threat and political environment to that of India. So, the urgency for technologies is far better understood by Israel than Russia. Russia, for the same reason will not have an urgency to deliver. I am inclined to believe a Gorky situation with Israel would have found a far better solution

Russia IMHO is a wash out not because they lack brains - they have them for sure, but they misuse and actually at times abuse their funds and the system (management). IF that is true, then no one can go to far - even with in-house brains.

More examples for #3: ATV, cryo engine for space rocket?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jun 2009 23:21

Its not that we have to choose one over the other or give importance to just one , both Russia and Israel are strategic partners , Soviet Russia has a long history of supporting india during difficult times in past 50 years , India too stood by Russia during its uncertain period in 90's by supporting their defence estb.

Israel too has helped india during in developing niche technologies ABM , AESA,Sats etc and importing technology/weapons and intelligence sharing.

So Israel will be preferred partner for terrorism and combating them , developing high technology niche products and co development , Russia can help in developing strategic weapons and still is a major power in the world , and providing refuge to those West considers un-touchable for their own self serving needs and interests. Much like West/US dealt with India during cold war.

Israel is quite vulnerable to pressure from US for obvious reason and most of the high tech system like GP and Phalcon would not have been possible without a tacit approval from US , so if push comes Israel may or may not be in a position to support India , much like Israel backed down with its dealing with China under US pressure.

So we should deal with both the countries appropriately as per our interest.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jun 2009 23:28

Here is an analysis from Arun on Borei SSBN interesting sail design , based on the question I had put to him. I will post his reply verbatim

That is indeed a novelty. As I mulled over this design feature I observe the following:

1: The slant forward gives low observability. Just like new surface ships have flat surfaces that is not normal to water surface. In this case one of the biggest sonar cross section is eliminated because surface bound sonar energy will be directed away into deep sea. I think it is a clever design that based on the adage "when you have a lemon, make lemonade out of it". The corner between sail and body is most problematic for LO and given the enormous hydrodynamic force, acoustic tiles/rubber will be a difficult solution.

2: Another aspect of this craft is that when cruising near surface (e.g. shallow water) this design will give smaller surface turbulence (vortex). The shape pushes the the vortex stream down deeper rather than flare it at at the sail's tail. So a airborne surveillance platform will have more difficulty discriminating water surface features. This solution will IMHO have similar surface LO performance as a very smooth and curved sail

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 29 Jun 2009 23:53

The foxtrots had a forward slant, but this tapered off at the top.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jun 2009 00:16

p_saggu wrote:The foxtrots had a forward slant, but this tapered off at the top.

Check Yankee Pod , Project 09780 from Rubin .... this submarine tested many new technology and design for Russian 4th Gen Submarine Borei , Yasen

Sail Yankee Pod
Yankee Pod

It was very common to develop one platform to test out new and advanced technologies for next generation submarine both in Russia and US. The K-278 Komsomolets was the most interesting one of all.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 30 Jun 2009 21:33

Navy carriers '£1bn over budget'

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Jul 2009 02:09

Israel Eyes Locally Built Warship

the Israel Navy has shelved long-held plans to purchase Lockheed Martin-produced Littoral Combat Ships (LCS), as well as a fallback option involving corvetees built by Northrop Grumman. Instead, sources say, the Navy is pushing to establish a combat shipbuilding industry through customized, locally built versions of a German corvette design.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jul 2009 03:52

On the contrary,Russia under Putin/Medvedev, is seeing an increase in defence funding for critical key areas like carriers,new-gen aircraft,advanced helos and nuckear subs and missiles.A consolidation of the various Russian companies has been made,especially bringing all aviation companies under one roof and leadership.Russian petro product exports are driving the defence funding,apart from new exports to certain developing nations like Venezuela,Vietnam,etc. apart from old clients like India.Russia has the most advanced mettalurgy technology in the world and our subs especially have taken advantage of this.The ATV has a lot of Russian knowhow in it and Indo-Russian deefcne cooperation which will continue for a long time to come as it is willing to give us cutting edge tech and weapon systems which we cannot get from the US or for which they have no equivalent like Brahmos.

PS:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31615988/ns ... nnovation/

Lasers to seek, but not destroy, subs
Laser-induced sound waves would also be used for mapping the ocean floor
Lasers could help the U.S. Navy

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Jul 2009 11:07

Gerard wrote:Israel Eyes Locally Built Warship
the Israel Navy has shelved long-held plans to purchase Lockheed Martin-produced Littoral Combat Ships (LCS), as well as a fallback option involving corvetees built by Northrop Grumman. Instead, sources say, the Navy is pushing to establish a combat shipbuilding industry through customized, locally built versions of a German corvette design.

Looks like Israelis want to build the ships in Israel to reduce the cost. The MEKO A-100 is a good ship but also costs a bit. IN and Israel should have come up with a new corvette design to serve the needs of P-28A and Israeli navy. The IN would most probably want Barak-1 + Ak-630 combo with brahmos/klub option. The Israelis would go with Harpoon, Barak-1+ phalanx combo.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Jul 2009 02:13

Folks I am currently on SA tour and also to Kenya, Zimbabwae, Tanzania Namibia.

Here is a picture of a Frigate(?) from the F designation that I saw berthed at Simsonsburg on way to Cape of Good hope from CapeTown.

can any one identify what calss it is? It seems to be stealth Frigate.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Jul 2009 03:29

SAS Mendi (F148) is the last of four Valour class frigates for the South African Navy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAS_Mendi_(F148)

The South African Valour class frigates are the major surface ships of the South African Navy. The German manufacturer designates them as the MEKO A-200SAN class, member of its MEKO family of naval ships. They were designed and built using principles of stealthy design, including the extensive use of "X-form" structure design in which right angles and vertical surfaces are avoided and techniques to reduce the infrared signature, such as exiting the exhaust below the waterline. Blohm + Voss, the designers, claim the class has the radar signature of a vessel half its size, 75% less infrared signature than previous designs as well as a 20% lower life cycle cost, 25% less displacement and 30% fewer crew.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jul 2009 07:23

John Snow wrote:
Here is a picture of a Frigate(?) from the F designation that I saw berthed at Simsonsburg on way to Cape of Good hope from CapeTown.

Brings back memories. I had posted two years ago, a similar pic, right at this spot. Enjoy SA. Will be there for World Cup next year.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2009 14:10

China's ASBM could revolutionise naval anti-carrier warfare.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hticbm ... 90701.aspx

Naval Supremacy Without Ships
July 1, 2009: For the last six years, Chinese military planners have been openly discussing the development of an ASBM (an anti-ship ballistic missile) .