Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

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rohitvats
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by rohitvats »

ramana wrote:But T + T3 got only 100,000 Euros! And Christian Michel got Eu30M and the two Swiss got Eu20M. All those pious statements about paying the family 100K Euros don't make sense.
ramana, this ACM Tyagi and T3 brothers angle is only to feed public appetite.

Nothing is going to come out of it - after all, Saint Antony has already said that the Indian selection process was clean. Even the spec change aspect has been pinned on Brajesh Mishra and SPG requirement. Remember, even in case of Bofors, nothing finally came out of the whole deal. But the stigma stuck and brought down RG. The main focus and need of hour for first family is to obfuscate the issue and deflect the blame on someone.

And they have succeeded in this pursuit so far.
Philip
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Philip »

Spot on Ramana! Tyagis get peanuts while the champagne and caviar go elsewhere! Come on,would ACM Tyagi sell his soul-that too to be split three ways, for a mere 60-70 odd lakhs?
Who is going to believe that story? Even die-hard Congressmen would roll over laughing.They probably make that every day,if not more.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by RamaY »

Philip wrote:Spot on Ramana! Tyagis get peanuts while the champagne and caviar go elsewhere! Come on,would ACM Tyagi sell his soul-that too to be split three ways, for a mere 60-70 odd lakhs?
Who is going to believe that story? Even die-hard Congressmen would roll over laughing.They probably make that every day,if not more.
The fact that ACM Tyagi allowed this nonsense to go so far entertaining his family members means he abused his office and breached the conflict of interest. It doesn't matter if he did it for Rs 1 or Rs 10000000 crore.

Even if we were to assume ACM Tyagi's family members were mere employees/agents/consultants, we need to know their qualifications and previous experience to provide such consulting services in a helicopter deal. Wouldn't ACM Tyagi doesn't know his family member's capabilities?
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Surya »

I agree
and frankly it annoys me when the Tyagis of the world claim they are just a relative and test our intelligence.

Robert is also just a relative!!!
hnair
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by hnair »

:rotfl: a fine broadside against Shree Anthony

Image

Caption says "Tyagi" (in the sense "he who is ready to sacrifice his own comfort")
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Ankit Desai »

Another question troubling me is whom did MoD pay money for Augusta Choppers ?

If they paid to Augusta directly than I doubt if any investigation will lead to any conclusion. If MoD paid to shell company/ies than why did MoD pay to them(middle man/company), in this case IDS(India and one another).

So when MoD did in house investigation did they check money trail start with them?

-Ankit
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

The MoD paid the UK subsidiary of FM Italy.

The IDS etc were paid by FM Italy.

As for in-house investigation by MoD, please refer to the Malayalam cartoon posted above.

Truly a picture worth a thousand words.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by hnair »

ramanaji, that cartoonist (Gopikrishnan of Mathrubhoomi daily) is one of the best out there and sort of covers the current incumbent's limitations really well.

There was an earlier one on Gen VKS' allegations of bribe attempt on Tatra scam by the same cartoonist .

First frame of cartoon: Shree Anthony saying "I was speechless for sometime, when I heard CoAS was offered bribe".
Second frame same pic of Shree Anthony saying "sometime = 1 year"

(couldnt find it, I will check with him via FB, where he posts)
ramana
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

While VKS was reporting on the Tatra bribe being offered to him, Tyagi was sacrificing himself to FM.
And AKA was speechless both times and MMS was mumbling.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Muppalla »

The copter scandal is an open and shut case. Please tune into 2G scandal thread. But the difference this time from the days of Bofors case is brazen ness. The top corrupt are saying "do whatever the f-u-c-k you want to do. we will just what we want to do".
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Cosmo_R »

The fact is that political parties or entities everywhere love arms deals because it's a great way to siphon funds for elections or the maintenance of the monarchy or whatever.

You can put in all the rules you want but the creativity in end running them is astounding. Many years ago, I remember stuff coming across my desk for approval to participate in deals where 30% was separately to go into the accounts of well known arms merchants/fixers of those days.

This is what gave rise to the US FMS sales program which is government to government. Many governments and would be influence peddlers hate it and will try to sway public opinion against US vendors because there's no money in it. Whether you're FMS or whether its a commercial sale, on US sales, you, the vendor are liable under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

I wish that France, EU would have similar laws and mechanisms. They all complain about corruption in India but their agents are driving it.

BTW, think why there is such a desire by any GoI to give PSUs the contracts. So many possibilities internally for 'transfer pricing'.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Pranay »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 565762.cms

.... and slowly the sleaze and ignorance starts oozing out!!
Government is split over the need to cancel the helicopter deal with AgustaWestland, with foreign minister Salman Khurshid expressing his unease over the defence ministry's move to scrap the Rs 3,546 crore contract.

With growing indications that defence minister A K Antony may not flinch from taking the extreme step of cancelling the deal, Khurshid sounded a distinct note of caution. "We don't want to overreact because we don't want to let this issue affect our defence preparedness," he said. :roll:
Khurshid even stressed that whether the Italians violated any Indian law is yet to be determined.
:oops:
However, Khurshid cautioned against the rush. "We need to examine why corruption has happened on a defence deal like this. I can understand it when a poor quality product has been pushed through as a result of corrupt practices. But this chopper is not a poor quality product. So we need to get to the bottom of this. All I can say is that we have followed all the procedures, and there was no deviation from that," he added.
Since when does a bribe stop being a bribe? Whether one is buying gold or dirt??
On Saturday, Khurshid had said India would raise the subject with visiting UK PM David Cameron, but later he took a more qualified position. "We will raise it if ministry of defence wants us to raise it."
:shock:

...and such people are going to protect India's interests?? What a slimy stew such ministers swim in...
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_23364 »

51 Million Euros paid by AW.

30 Million went to Christian Michel James (UK).

20 Million went to Ralph Haschke & Carlo Gerosa (Swiss)

0.1 Million went to T3 Brothers( Copyright acknowledge)

My question is-

Why are we concentrating on the 0.1 Million only? 98% of the money has gone to Michel James & Ralph & Carlo. We know that the money was transferred to India through the guise of software remittances. Why are we not tracking down the recipients of that transfers? Answer lies in our own country. Let us find it.

Btw, Salman Khurshid wants the deal to go through as originally envisaged.Apparently not having the VVIP choppers affects "India's defence preparedness"?? Really.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 565762.cms
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Surya »

yeah kurshit was ok with Arty, SP arty being neglected for 2 decades but 12 VVIP helos are a problem


@#$@%^%@#^@^#@
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_23360 »

Salman Khurshid:"We don't want to overreact because we don't want to let this issue affect our defence preparedness,"

is he kidding how can these VVIP helos affect our defence preparedness?

:rotfl:
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SagarAg »

ramana wrote:While VKS was reporting on the Tatra bribe being offered to him, Tyagi was sacrificing himself to FM.
And AKA was speechless both times and MMS was mumbling.
Theek Hai. :mrgreen:
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Seriously...you dont see this from a holistic POV...today 12 choppers ..tomorrow 126 MMRCA..day after tomorrow the IAC...Very soon this will creep into infrastructure projects..

I have yet to see/read any evidence in the Tabloid indian media that confirms this to be a Indian issue.. This so far is an Italian issue based on an Indian contract...

Again...aside from the questionable 100K Euro...where is the money trail so far...with 2 non indians...

The gravity of this issue is such that ..a former IAF chief is being thrown under the bus...this will and is setting a bad precedence for future...if the main attack is the leadership of our armed forces...do you think anyone in future will have the B@lls to make a sound leadership decision ( and I stick with the non politicans)..NOW they have to worry about the Indian Tabloid media...

And if Mr T is indeed guilty...let the Indian Legal system take care of that and not the Indian Tabloid Media..

Jai Hind
akshat.kashyap wrote:Salman Khurshid:"We don't want to overreact because we don't want to let this issue affect our defence preparedness,"

is he kidding how can these VVIP helos affect our defence preparedness?

:rotfl:
Sunilchurchill
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Surya...Take a walk down a lane called History...

SP arty was neglected for 2 decades because of people like VP singh and the Indian Tabloid media..corruption was given in the case of bofors....but so much fear was introduced in the indian decision making ( top to bottom) that it has ensured that no sound decision was taken for generations (Past and future) with regards to the SP arty.. and ironically for a gun that proved itself in Kargil..

Has anyone has ever accounted for how much India spent $$$s investigating Bofors over 2 decades and how much was the scandal $$s worth.. Once those numbers come to light ( if ever)...you will be shocked how much $$$s been wasted on deadends.. for a gun that was and is responsible for winning the Kargil war..

The Biggest flaw in the defence procurement process is that punished are the companies and the Indian security..the actual culprits roam scott free..

Have you noticed how the tier 1 ( NDA leadership) has kept a low profile on the chopper issue....Hats off to them..for recognizing the gravity of the issue and its implication to national defence...

BTW...hope you know what I mean by Tier1 NDA leadership..

Jai Hind..
Surya wrote:yeah kurshit was ok with Arty, SP arty being neglected for 2 decades but 12 VVIP helos are a problem


@#$@%^%@#^@^#@
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_23455 »

Cosmo_R wrote: This is what gave rise to the US FMS sales program which is government to government. Many governments and would be influence peddlers hate it and will try to sway public opinion against US vendors because there's no money in it. Whether you're FMS or whether its a commercial sale, on US sales, you, the vendor are liable under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
+ 1

That is actually one of the welcome by-products of the FMS program, though it was set up primarily for the U.S. govt to peddle arms in return for political influence during the cold war.

Profiteering and pork barrel politics are another side of the U.S. MIC though - the former is a case for India to go the non-FMS route but seeing how competitive bids are working on the ground, perversely FMS is better till we clear our Augean stables. The latter shouldn't worry us because which US senator gets to have a Boeing plant in his state is their problem.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Below is the Indian reality and things to come if the chopper scams is let to go out of control.. The Indian Tabloid Media in their quest for rating is taking defence of India down the gutter...soon no decisions will be made as was the case after the Bofors and HDW.. Unlike post Bofors..China now has a mordernized armed force unlike post Bofors in the 80's...

Jai Hind..



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html

“The unfortunate fallout of the current helicopter controversy is that decisions will get stalled, people will play safe and not take any decisions at all, and that will affect our defense modernization and preparedness adversely,” said Mrinal Suman, a retired army major general who instructs foreign defense manufacturers on Indian weapons procurement policies. “The modernization of our armed forces is already lagging behind by 15 years. About half of the weapons and equipment in India’s armed forces are obsolete.”

In 2011, V.K. Singh, then chief of the Indian army, said the army’s major combat weapons were in an “alarming” state, making India unfit for war.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by anishns »

News from TOIlet

TOP STORIES
More Stories »
Salman Khurshid opposes scrapping of VVIP chopper deal
TNN
We don't want to overreact on the AgustaWestland helicopter deal because we don't want to let this issue affect our defence preparedness, Salman Khurshid said.

Pray tell me how does scrapping vvip chopper deal affect our defence preparedness?
Sunilchurchill
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Seriously...you dont see this from a holistic POV...today 12 choppers ..tomorrow 126 MMRCA..day after tomorrow the IAC...Very soon this will creep into infrastructure projects..

Why do u want this scrapped...???


anishns wrote:News from TOIlet

TOP STORIES
More Stories »
Salman Khurshid opposes scrapping of VVIP chopper deal
TNN
We don't want to overreact on the AgustaWestland helicopter deal because we don't want to let this issue affect our defence preparedness, Salman Khurshid said.

Pray tell me how does scrapping vvip chopper deal affect our defence preparedness?
Pranav
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Pranav »

Sunilchurchill wrote:Seriously...you dont see this from a holistic POV...
The holistic view is that the looter who loots 1 million today will, if he is not caught and hanged, loot a billion tomorrow.

That is exactly the Bofors story.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Surya wrote:yeah kurshit was ok with Arty, SP arty being neglected for 2 decades but 12 VVIP helos are a problem
Exactly the same story with the so called FMS with C 17s aint it? Everything can wait but the C 17s need ordering before the Boeing shuts down the plant for the plane.

Of course there are advantages of reducing corruption through FMS route, Chiefs no longer need to included, middle men are not needed.

Congress functionaries can directly visit the American embassy and discuss the modalities of quid pro quo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash-for-votes_scandal
Five days before the Manmohan Singh government faced a crucial vote of confidence on the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal in 2008, a political aide to Congress leader Satish Sharma showed a U.S. Embassy employee “two suitcases containing cash” he said was part of a bigger fund of Rs. 50 crore ($13 million) to Rs. 60 crore ($15 million) that the party had assembled to purchase the support of MPs."[10]

:mrgreen:
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Full on war in congress, with different folks digging down in their corners, trying to make sure the s*** does not get to their part of the corners.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-k-a ... s/1076366/

A K Antony not part of PM's team for UK defence talks

Imagine that India's Def Min not to be part of Def talks, wah wah.
The controversial chopper deal involving Anglo-Italian firm AgustaWestland may also come up for discussion.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/as-fm ... /1076051/0

As FM, Pranab Mukherjee opposed changes in the AgustaWestland deal

There was no clear explanation on why the changes were necessary almost three years after the RFP was signed, the note said, according to sources familiar with it. Sources said that the Defence Ministry, in its reply, responded to only two objections raised. In a second note, the Finance Ministry pointed out that most of its reservations were unanswered. The issue was forwarded to the Cabinet Committee on Security on January 18, 2010, where it was cleared.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/khurshid-den ... ml?from=HP

Khurshid denies differences in UPA on scrapping Italian chopper deal

Earlier, sources had indicated that the Prime Minister's Office was unhappy with the proposal to cancel the chopper deal. This came amidst reports that the Defence Minister was inclined to cancel the deal in view of the bribery allegations against former Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Vikram W »

I am just surprised that the taxpayer has no say in where his money is going.
rohitvats
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by rohitvats »

Well, when was the last time UPA-2 dithered from scrapping any deal?

And why is it doing this time - and that by citing 'defense preparedness'? I could even understand a nation not wanting to cancel a deal because of maintaining relationships with other country - that is all part and parcel of foreign policy. But this fig-leaf of defense preparedness is a bloody joke.

Just goes to show that someone powerful is backing the deal and there might be more 'leaks' in the media (and of more substantial type) if anything happens to the deal. Running a protection racket comes with its own dynamics.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_23455 »

Vikram W wrote:I am just surprised that the taxpayer has no say in where his money is going.
Be careful of saying sensible things on this thread. That would require us to start putting in systems for "direct democracy" which is actually on the agenda of one of the new kids on the political block. :)

Why put in imagination and hard work when there is instant emotional gratification to be had by floating conspiracy theories and living in an imaginary world where except for the current rulers and a certain foreign hand, everyone else is pure as driven snow :wink:
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_22906 »

Cross posting from India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector thread

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/02/v ... -them.html
India leads the world in corruption in arms imports and the gap is widening as we import more and more weaponry. But in taking action against the guilty we content ourselves with political bluster and self-defeating bans. Defence Minister AK Antony’s “strong action” against Italian defence giant Finmeccanica, and its Anglo-Italian helicopter subsidiary AgustaWestland, is aimed at making him sound like a man of steel but is, in fact, a short-sighted reaction that is meant to --- but will fail to --- defuse the opposition’s equally motivated criticism.


Mr Antony has unilaterally “initiated action for cancellation of contract for procurement of 12 AW101 helicopters for the use of VVIPs”, by sending AgustaWestland a show cause notice asking why New Delhi should not cancel the Rs 4,000 crore contract signed in 2010. Just three of the twelve helicopters ordered have been delivered so far while India has already paid at least 40 per cent of the contract amount, according to knowledgeable persons, including former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal Fali Major.


There is no proof yet of any wrongdoing. New Delhi has acted on the basis of an investigation report, filed by Italian prosecutors in Milan. The report alleges payment of Euro 51 million (Rs 350 crore) by Finmeccanica to secure the Indian contract. The case has not yet come to trial, though the evidence has persuaded an Italian magistrate to allow the arrest of Finmeccanica head, Giuseppe Orsi. The Italian judiciary has refused to release the investigation report; we know of the case only from media leaks, which the Italian authorities have not denied.


Until there is a conviction by the Italian judiciary, or until the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) determines prima facie wrongdoing (Antony referred the case to the CBI only last week) any move towards terminating the contract with AgustaWestland would be legally untenable. On Saturday, the company flatly denied wrongdoing and said that would reply accordingly to the show cause statement. On what legal basis then would Antony be proceeding?


Might the CBI succeed in actually obtaining proof of malfeasance, if it occurred? Going by its record in such cases, that seems unlikely. The CBI has little expertise on defence procurement, and the agency has repeatedly proved unable to obtain responses to letters rogatory, investigate money trails and hawala networks, or direct investigations towards the influential political figures that are often the recipients of defence payoffs.


So what might AgustaWestland do if Antony unilaterally cancelled the contract? If this were the United States --- where the Department of Defense has the financial clout to ensure that companies like BAE Systems have paid $400 million fines for apparent bribery --- AgustaWestland and its parent company, Finmeccanica, might have quietly fallen in line in the interests of future business. But India’s defence ministry does not have the weight to unilaterally cancel such a large contract, even though Finmeccanica subsidiaries like Selex, Wass, Oto Melara and MBDA do substantial business with our import-loving military. In 2009, Selex Sistemi Integrati (a Finmeccanica subsidiary) dragged the MoD to court in 2009, charging that the Tata group had been favoured over Sistemi in a Rs 1,000 crore contract for modernization of air field infrastructure (MAFI) in 30 IAF bases.


With the AW101 contract four times as large as the MAFI one, AgustaWestland would almost certainly challenge any cancellation by dragging it into arbitration. Since the Indian payment for the AW101 is currently ahead of helicopter delivery, New Delhi would end up a major financial loser by freezing the status quo. And the IAF would not want to be left with the unenviable task of operating two types of VVIP helicopters; and sourcing lifetime spares and overhaul for three AW101s from AgustaWestland.


Such embarrassments would continue for as long as India remains a major buyer of defence equipment. The only way out of the MoD’s downward spiral of purchases, scams, cancellations and blacklistings is the systematic and relentless indigenization of defence equipment. But a militarily and strategically illiterate MoD has, in the absence of any counter-narrative, bought into the military’s fiction that if “modernization” were not pursued (i.e. quick buys from overseas), national security interests would be severely threatened. In fact, the most serious challenge to our military preparedness is not any external threat, but the regrettable absence of home built defence systems and our crippling reliance on rapacious overseas suppliers.


It is time to end all but the most pressing overseas procurements. The defence ministry needs to form purpose-structured consortiums of companies --- chosen from both public and private sectors --- and task them to develop specific defence systems. For example, the elusive chimera of importing artillery guns must be buried forever. Instead, the government should task the DRDO’s Armament R&D Establishment (ARDE), Bharat Forge, Tata Power and L&T to produce a working gun by 2017. The army must be goaded into working with this coalition, and told its only option is an indigenous gun.


The Make category of the Defence Procurement Policy permits such consortiums. Only two defence systems are currently being developed under the Make procedure – a tactical communication system (TCS) and a future infantry combat vehicle (FICV). There should be at least a hundred.


If operational preparedness suffers in the short or even medium term, that price must be paid. This strategic decision must be backed by cross-party political consensus, obtained with an agreement that the network of industrial structures that will arise from serious indigenization will be shared across ruling party and opposition constituencies. Ending this spiral of shameful scandals through indigenization is essential for national pride; strategic autonomy; and for building the defence capability that must backstop any bid for great power.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

While the case for indigenous manufacturing is self evident, I accuse Shukla of trying to spin the focus away from his henchman in track II details, Tyagi, as also UPA not to mention safeguard AW intrests by arguing against cancellations.

Why do I say this? The case here is not a issue of import dependency and defence preparedness, the VIP helos are a niche product, even USA which by no means is a import dependent country, sought to import AW choppers for VIPs. Neither is VIP transport a national security issue.

From a potential of overall impact, this is a fairly minor issue.

The key points that have come out in this case are

1) First time a Chief of forces has been directly implicated, murmurings against Kapoor notwithstanding
2) There is direct charge of political malfeasance given by the family's past behavior with AW -- and also the unanswered questions in the money trail
3) the questions of overall lobbying and middlemen present in defense deals while expressly forbidden in India is a key point.

Shukla side steps all the relevant issues of the case and prefers to wax about generics, which while true, are not really the questions of the case.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by merlin »

So who on here feels that SPT is innocent?
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by alexis »

^merlin
Not me...
Who got the money may be revealed in time. SPT would have been involved in some capacity
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by vic »

Agustawestland AW-101 is a typical example of super costly needless product purchased for Rs. 6000 crore by touting it as absolutely essential. The job could have been done by ALHs for 1/10th the cost but the need matrix is designed around (only) imported products like T-90s, Imported 155mm guns, imported AA guns, imported small arms etc. The story of AW clearly tells us how bribes are paid over a decade to mould and corrupt a long series of Tyagis.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

This will soon cascade to

A ) MMRCA deal
B) IAC - See the FM role with that project- Add another 5 years if FN blacklisted.
C) Replacement for the Avros
D) 197 Chopper - already impacted

E) SP arty - still no relief in sight - 25+ years
f) Subs - wil add another 15 years to find a replacement with this added for scrutiny

if this does not open your mind...that it is Not worth to argue with you.as you clearly will not see the big picture... if you dont see the ripple affect ( as was with Bofors and HDW) than god help India..


As V.K. Singh said in 2011, India is unfit for war.



Marten wrote:Sunilchurchill, could you explain this holistic view of how price-inflated choppers for VVIPs are related to defence preparedness?

In brief, if possible.
Sunilchurchill
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

I do...

He is "Innocent till proven Guilty" in a court of law...
merlin wrote:So who on here feels that SPT is innocent?
Sanku
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Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Sunilchurchill wrote:This will soon cascade to
I do not think it will -- there are enough clean deals -- however if the deals are corrupt -- good if does.

Corruption can not be tolerated on specious grounds any more and crooks hide behind national security buzzword while in reality damaging the same.

And
He is "Innocent till proven Guilty" in a court of law...
is merely a fig leaf to hide behind. As of now worthless.
Sunilchurchill
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Vikram W...name one country in the world where the taxpayer have a say on where his money goes,..

..lets give you a multiple choice

- A. china
- B. usa
- C. UK
- D. Italy
- E. None of Above

Vikram W wrote:I am just surprised that the taxpayer has no say in where his money is going.
Sunilchurchill
BRFite -Trainee
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

Sanku..what fig of leaf are talking about...totally irrational if otherwise..unless you are all game for guilty in the law of public opinion..than there is no point in a discussion...

Your is the mindset that led to innocent being persecuted in Stalin's soviet, Mao's china..

At the end of the day..there is a Indian legal system..let the accused be tried under the Inidan law and puinished once proven guilty..till than..best to not pass judgement of guilt..
Sanku wrote:
Sunilchurchill wrote:This will soon cascade to
I do not think it will -- there are enough clean deals -- however if the deals are corrupt -- good if does.

Corruption can not be tolerated on specious grounds any more and crooks hide behind national security buzzword while in reality damaging the same.

And
He is "Innocent till proven Guilty" in a court of law...
is merely a fig leaf to hide behind. As of now worthless.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Sunilchurchill wrote:Sanku..what fig of leaf are talking about...totally irrational if otherwise..unless you are all game for guilty in the law of public opinion..than there is no point in a discussion...
Obviously no one here is going to supplant the court of law, and public opinion has not sent some one to jail yet.

So just what are you hyperventilating about?

You want to have a discussion but are not willing to listen to what others think ? Because what others think is not going to be to your liking?

And unfortunately not all guilty parties get punished by the court of law, it has its own dictum of letting 100 accused go but not let a single innocent suffer, this means that there are enough people including those like SAR Geelani who get away despite the court admitting that there is sufficient prima facie evidence.

So if you are really keen on that sort of argument, I suggest you spend your time at the court rather than on BRF, because a debating forum will only be ideas and views exchange place with no legal sanction.
manjgu
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by manjgu »

the guilty will never be caught !! as the trail unfortunately runs really to the top.

on what basis can u convict someone in a bribery case ( where cash is transacted). unless ofc the recepient has gone to bank to deposit the cash or made a video of himself receiving the cash and puts it on youtube. short of that conviction is impossible... this CBI team to italy etc is a red herring meant to confuse the aam admi.

Will u convict some one in india just because some Haschke, orsi or geroso makes a statement? How will it stand scrutiny in a indian court of law??

SPT was only a pawn ( if at all) in the whole game. He may have been given peanuts.. everyone knows how much power does service officers wield in the purchase process !! the money has wound its way into kangessi coffers or 'the familys' coffers.
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