Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 19 Feb 2013 18:33

Sunilchurchill wrote:Vikram W...name one country in the world where the taxpayer have a say on where his money goes,..

..lets give you a multiple choice

- A. china
- B. usa
- C. UK
- D. Italy
- E. None of Above

Vikram W wrote:I am just surprised that the taxpayer has no say in where his money is going.

Not to answer for Vikram W, but forget where tax money goes, there are countries where people get to decide the rate of tax itself.

http://www.athene.antenna.nl/MEDIATHEEK/KOBACH-1.html. Ctrl+F for revenues and tax since the article is a mini-thesis.

And since a lot of effort is spent on BR by certain posters chiding our slavish mentality, surely the country that came up with the Zero, Chess, Jantar Mantar etc. does not need a precedent in some other country to evolve its own specific system for its own specific problems.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 19 Feb 2013 18:44

Who is Hyperventilating...Look at your posts on this topic...Burn them on a stake is your mindset....why do we need this chopper and that is your rationale to cancel..

Bottomline...what grounds do you claim that we dont need the 12 choppers...etc..

With not an Iota of proof...you jump the gun to scream murder and cancel the choppers...that is the mindet that has done Indian bad...

BTW..everything you have said implies supplant the court of law...lets cancel the 12 choppers..lets ban the FM...lets react to the short term and leave the long term implications to later..( that is what India has become good at)...

Aside from defence..their is corruption in every walk of indian life,....so per your logic...we should all stop functioning as a country and stay home...

when we dont have a system/appetite to punish the actual guilty ( not the companies alone)..it is easy to blame the family, congress, BJP,etc.. at the end of the day it becomes easier to stick the blame on someone and move on..

And very soon on this topic and to my response..someone will point to couple of high level names as "we got em" in the ast 5years ( I refer to kalamadi and raja-- which on itself is a joke as not punishment has been pelted)..but..we have a system ( Defence and non) that is corrupt thu and thru ( top to bottom)....we also lack the balance to put national interest first...what we are good at is to react to the ultimate extreme of a public opinion and the tabloid media ...

BTW..no one has the right to name call a leader..(no matter how much they are disliked)...The name I believe is Khurshid..and not kushit...lets atleast respect the name and not display manner that are fit in a zoo...

Sanku wrote:
Sunilchurchill wrote:Sanku..what fig of leaf are talking about...totally irrational if otherwise..unless you are all game for guilty in the law of public opinion..than there is no point in a discussion...
Obviously no one here is going to supplant the court of law, and public opinion has not sent some one to jail yet.

So just what are you hyperventilating about?

You want to have a discussion but are not willing to listen to what others think ? Because what others think is not going to be to your liking?

And unfortunately not all guilty parties get punished by the court of law, it has its own dictum of letting 100 accused go but not let a single innocent suffer, this means that there are enough people including those like SAR Geelani who get away despite the court admitting that there is sufficient prima facie evidence.

So if you are really keen on that sort of argument, I suggest you spend your time at the court rather than on BRF, because a debating forum will only be ideas and views exchange place with no legal sanction.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2013 18:50

Sunilchurchill wrote:Who is Hyperventilating...Look at your posts on this topic...Burn them on a stake is your mindset....why do we need this chopper and that is your rationale to cancel..

More hyperventilation, when did I say burn them at the stake? (however now that you mention it, does not sound like a bad idea)

Bottomline...what grounds do you claim that we dont need the 12 choppers...etc..

With not an Iota of proof...you jump the gun to scream murder and cancel the choppers...that is the mindet that has done Indian bad...

Do yourself a favor, actually read some of the many articles posted with analysis than making statements about basics which are already covered.

And no we do not need 12 of these hyper expensive copters, we dont even need 3 (US orderded 3) -- we need ZERO.

The VIPs can fly in a Mi 17 or a ALH or whatever with the necessary ECM suite.

And yes, we will keep discussing-- hard luck with your, "let us not talk about it" campaign.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2013 18:56

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-must-id ... ml?from=HP

Govt must identify all bribe takers in AgustaWestland deal: Arun Jaitley

When asked if he suspected that someone having authority, and not a middleman, was the real bribe taker in the chopper deal case, Jaitley said, "A middleman gets commission, bribes go to the decision makers."

Who are the decision makers? Why did St Antony not answer the queries raised by FM? Why did CCS override FM concerns? Whose decision was it to buy AW when middlemen were clearly and obviously running around?

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 19 Feb 2013 19:02

This is what I refered to as "hats off to Tier 1 leadership of BJP"...

let Indian court of law take course and not react to the tabloid media..which Saint A has done a good job of...why cancel the 12 choppers..Canceling of an order at a small indication of scandal ...does Inidan national security harm...a true leader should standby their decision no matter what...cant change mind on the fly at the slight indication of a problem/scandal...

Again..hats off to AJ for not dragging this further in the mud....lets get to the bottom of this objectively and not repeat the bofors saga of no defence modernization for another 15 years...

Sanku wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-must-id ... ml?from=HP

Govt must identify all bribe takers in AgustaWestland deal: Arun Jaitley

When asked if he suspected that someone having authority, and not a middleman, was the real bribe taker in the chopper deal case, Jaitley said, "A middleman gets commission, bribes go to the decision makers."
Who are the decision makers? Why did St Antony not answer the queries raised by FM? Why did CCS override FM concerns? Whose decision was it to buy AW when middlemen were clearly and obviously running around?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Feb 2013 19:03

I am astonished.For a man who holds the post of For.Min.,Sa;man-the Kursed,always appears to be at a loss for words and when he speaks mumbles and fumbles! perhaps the pasting he got over his mishandling of the Zakir H trust has affected his speech.he should see a therapist.

Now the "defence preparedness" of the nation by acquisition of VVIP helos is hilarious,protecting the precious backsides of our high and mighty.In other words,he is equating these VVIPs with the nation.Shades of the Emergency and DK Barooah's famous "Indira is India...".However,if he was speaking holistically,and is advocating a measured decision later on after ascertaining all the facts,he should say so.In today's defence world,firms have merged creating massive consortiums which make every kind of weapon system and can offer a weapon system,radars,sensors,engines,missiles and weaponry,the entire package as in a one-stop-shop.
By blacklisting the entire group,we will be cutting our throats,as the FM group is also supposedly providing naval radars for the IAC-1 and other eqpt.,plus has shares in EU companies where we have existing contracts.

As said before,of any ban is to take place,it should be for the particular weapon system/deal in question,a "disqualification",plus a very hefty fine which will be enforced,similar to a bank guarantee for any contract.In any other contests,the track record of the company will certainly leave a Q mark against it in the final reckoning.The govts. to which these companies belong must also be made part of the guarantee,as only they can track/monitor through their intel sources the myriad contortions of the deal.In the current scam,certainly David Cameron,British PM must cooperate with India ,as CMJ is allegedly a British subject.Reports that he is well known to our intel men,as he is supposed to have been an asset to us,one boss even threw a party for him it is alleged needs to be examined thoroughly.

Even if there is no kickback to any local in a deal,what prevents the execs of the co. from padding the price and sharing the loot themselves,and ensuring that they win by handing out a few crumbs to locals,like the Tyagis for argument's sake?
Unfortunately,in this AW scandal,the Abishek Verma alleged pay-off via Mauritius,Tunisia,wherever,traced back to AW cannot be ignored.The mysterious Christian Michael James,father Wolfgang Max or whatever aliases they operate under.

What the UPA/Congresswallahs cannot escape criticism is that they kept quiet for months after notice was brought to them about the scam.Over Tatra,Anthony-the-Sinner,was in his own words "speechless" ( for one whole year!).Here too he displayed the same 3-monkey mentality.In retrospect,he has been an unmitigated disaster,firstly for delaying decisions inordinately and excruciatingly,and when wrongdoing has been reported to him,enters "maun",emulating his boss "Maun" Mohan,famous for his speechless skills too!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2013 19:18

Sunilchurchill wrote:.why cancel the 12 choppers..

Because the Indian law demands that firms indulging in corrupt practices have their licencse cancelled.

And this is not a small indication of a scandal this is a HUGE set of factoids which led Italy to this persecution.

BTW even BJP has asked for govts stand on cancelling of contracts. The contracts must be cancelled and the money recovered as per the necessary clauses.

This is a completely unnecessary purchase and has no national security impact what so ever. So expect people whose personal interests are hurt by the cancellation, no one gives a damn if these are cancelled.

In fact cancelling these hyper priced white elephants is the biggest favor India can do to itself -- the three units already delivered should be sold for junk as part of recovering costs involved in the fraud.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 19 Feb 2013 19:20

i totally agree that we did not need these choppers ! this idiotic VIP culture has crossed all limits in this country !

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 19:56

sankuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

sigh you bit on it !!!!!!

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 19 Feb 2013 20:06

^^^

I was feeling the same.

Newbie cycle is churning....

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 20:09

its standard ops when a new drama unfolds

Somewhere in the forum there are posts about how to go about this

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 20:18

strange

on IT I saw an article that Tyagi raised the order by 50 %

now it has disappeared

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 19 Feb 2013 20:29

I have an alternate take on the corruption business.. It is quite possible for rival suppliers to put this out to secure contracts .. there is another even more sinister possibility of countries that have an interest to delay any and all acquisitions to debilitate India's defensive and offensive postures and perhaps altering the dynamic to their own benefit?? Thoughts..

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 19 Feb 2013 20:54

Surya wrote:strange

on IT I saw an article that Tyagi raised the order by 50 %

now it has disappeared

Link

-Ankit

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 21:02

thanks Ankit

they are really going after Tyagi

a good lesson for others who are willing to look the other way - VKs may have suffered but Tyagi is going to feel it a lot more as they throw him to the wolves

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Feb 2013 22:55

Surya wrote:thanks Ankit

they are really going after Tyagi - a good lesson for others who are willing to look the other way - VKs may have suffered but Tyagi is going to feel it a lot more as they throw him to the wolves

It's "I told you so" moment...

ACM is the fall guy in the public domain.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 22:57

rohit

yes pat yourself

Play with wolves get torn by them

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Feb 2013 23:18

Surya wrote:rohit

yes pat yourself
Play with wolves get torn by them

And guess what, the infamous Abhishek Verma (the power broker) angle is appearing in this case as well. AV actually directly offered his services to AgustaWestland. This I think was for the 197 LUH deal (where AW was weeded out on technical grounds). He may well be involved in this deal as well.

Apart from that, it seems the GOI is really going slow on the current investigation. Don't know why?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Feb 2013 23:18

so that national security is not jeopardised

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 01:24

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4421467.cms

The links deepen, between AW, the arms dealer and now CWG.

Clearly, these middlemen were linked to a particular party, those whose functionaries have been involved in CWG, the naval purchase and the AW deal.

Abhishek Verma, arms dealer, also known to be close to congress leadership, is the accused in the Naval war room leak case and currently in Tihar.

Arnab is providing compelling evidence of his involvement, including discussions with Orsi and also supply of choppers for CWG security. He also leaked details of CWG security.

So CWG <--> AW are linked through at least two strong links now. Emmar Mgf and Abhishek Verma.

Its all a big family it seems

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2013 02:00

Sanku, Recall the Oil for Food scam. Volcker Report clearly showed INC was also in the take.

Notwar was bakrafied. This time it will be Tyagi for the public seems satisfied that a low-level bribe taker is punished. It is unwilling to accept the rot is in the 2G family again.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Feb 2013 03:26

One amazing fact that has emerged in the latest tellyu debate is that there is NO penalty clause in the contract! All that India gets if wrongdoing is noted is the right to cancel the contract,money returned and 2% LIBOR. For effing up the entire process taking a few years,the manufacturer/bribe giver gets not even a rap on the knuckles! Unless a very stiff penalty clause is added-say 10-15% of the contract,which appears to be the usual kickback-unless you live in Colombo where the going rate allegedly by the current regime is 50% (!),to which the Chinese add their own 25% share,a stiff financial penalty clause must be part of any future contract.It will deter those manufacturers from winning the usual way.

Abishek Verma seems to be one of these "untouchables",just like Kalmadi,who smile and smirk every time their mugshot is captured on camera and strut around like desi John Gottis (the Teflon Don) every time they get bail and a stroll in the fresh air outside Hotel Tihar.Kalmadi has been the pet Congress caricature of the PMO,let's see who Verma's is.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 20 Feb 2013 11:01

Meanwhile in other news...

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/illeg ... ers-333030?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 20 Feb 2013 11:11

rohitvats wrote:
Surya wrote:thanks Ankit

they are really going after Tyagi - a good lesson for others who are willing to look the other way - VKs may have suffered but Tyagi is going to feel it a lot more as they throw him to the wolves
It's "I told you so" moment...

ACM is the fall guy in the public domain.

Question is - does he not deserve it?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 11:24

merlin wrote: Question is - does he not deserve it?

Oh very much, I hope enough pain is brought down on him so that he squeals who took the other 99% of the bribes.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Feb 2013 11:46

merlin wrote:<SNIP> Question is - does he not deserve it?

merlin - that is the million dollar question.

There is nothing till now to point finger at him. IMO, the reason he has been made the fall guy is completely incidental - his name appeared in the Italian investigation and people have latched on to the same. There seem to be a strategy to insinuate that he had a big hand in the whole process.

The latest news item about increase in number of helicopters required from 8 to 12 is pure BS - nowhere in the report has it been mentioned that raising the requirement level was contrary to some laid down parameter. However, the way the article has been worded is to somehow insinuate that there was something malafide in this act.

My suspicion of him arises from the fact that he was given the Track-II chair of latest CBM junket. The whole process was started to implement a predefined agenda and they required someone they could trust - an insider - to implement the agenda. The AW-101 scandal and this aspect makes me believe that he was involved in some capacity to facilitate the process.

As I have stated before - the whole deal may well stand on its merit. And in this case, there will be nothing to show any form of tweaking in paper trail. We need to wait for the CAG report to get some idea about the whole deal. Let us hope they pick up some points.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Feb 2013 13:11

Anthony Hines wrote:I have an alternate take on the corruption business.. It is quite possible for rival suppliers to put this out to secure contracts .. there is another even more sinister possibility of countries that have an interest to delay any and all acquisitions to debilitate India's defensive and offensive postures and perhaps altering the dynamic to their own benefit?? Thoughts..

highly possible, we have seen hints of it emerging during the rafale selection process also
one of the many possibilities is that this encourages/favours 1-800-FMS-Direct

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2013 13:16

^^^

Reading this thread, it seems that the INC Social media cell has gone active.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 13:26

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Reading this thread, it seems that the INC Social media cell has gone active.

I thought the same.

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 20 Feb 2013 15:10

X posting from BR Acronyms - A Comprehensive List.. In 2004 Rudra jee posted

Rudra wrote: The Family - the gandhi clan

May be CBI should check BRF to know who The Family is..

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 20 Feb 2013 16:11

rohitvats wrote: My suspicion of him arises from the fact that he was given the Track-II chair of latest CBM junket. The whole process was started to implement a predefined agenda and they required someone they could trust - an insider - to implement the agenda. The AW-101 scandal and this aspect makes me believe that he was involved in some capacity to facilitate the process.

As I have stated before - the whole deal may well stand on its merit. And in this case, there will be nothing to show any form of tweaking in paper trail. We need to wait for the CAG report to get some idea about the whole deal. Let us hope they pick up some points.

Yes that track-2 thingy is a suspicious thingy indeed.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 20 Feb 2013 18:26

Sanku..seems you have not understood where I am coming from and in the spirit of debate..lets clarify some points here...

The corruption scams and the price the indian defence has had to incurr is unacceptable by any standards...yet all want to cancel everyhing left right and center and off course..banning of the companies accused is acceptable..I strongly believe that this has put us at a very bad state of defence...

While we all agree that the solution of blacklisting companies is not the right way..BUT, the reality is that it is the only action undertaken..

If we were to take 1985 as a benchmark year and see what has not happened in the last 25 for the fear of being accussed of being corrupt ( thnks to VP singh and the Media Hysteria) than what started with Bofors..has resulted in indian defence in shambles..

At the end...VK singh summed it best in 2011..."India as it stand currently is not fit to fighta war"

so keeping China as enemy #1 and assume mini Kargils ( I stress the plural here) by China..here is what we will be looking at ..keep in mind..I can speak to other areas as well..but for the debate, lets start with below...

Also..I strongly believe that in 1985 India and China were at Par..but in 2013, thanks to China's Buy, borrow or Steal policy..they are ahead of us and thanks to our shortsighted policies ..we are not in a good position to defend..

1) Army :

A - 250 Bofors at hand. The should have been 2000 since 1985 ( Matured & adapted)
- 250 bofors to cover a 3000km border with china
- assuming 20% encounter a breakdown scenario..we will have apporx 200 available. - not a good state hope u agree

B- MBRS ( Pinaka,etc) This should have been in larger numbers to make up for the unavailability of SP arty- Not the case.

c - Cheetah/Chetak Replacement: On hold..Defence need supporting logistics relies on outdated machines.
- AW scandal will put this on "ICE"
- HAL option w/LUH is 10 years away from being online and available in large numbers
( that is what matters not 10 or 20 LUHs).

d- New SP arty: All major players blacklisted ( yet no one in Jail for any corruption). 145 777s are on way...but
not sufficent to make up any shortfalls.. Indian Bofors only planned for less than 200..and will
take 5 years to be online ( based on how long it has taken for 248 Arjuns)

2) Navy:
A- The replacement for Seakings are potentially canceled
- Expose the surface fleet as ship have outdated choppers supporting ASW role..
- Billions spent on frigates a waste as lack of defence that is provided by Seakings replacement.. -
Cant have P8I all over give the limited numbers

B- IAC delayed further
- With FM blacklisting the critical tech required to being IAC Online is delayed and will add potentially
another 3-4 years to the induction.

c- Almost all Subs at the last leg of life..replacement potentially 25 years from coming online ( again
required minimum numbers)

3) Infrastructure: Currently Northest doesnot have a decent infra ( Road, Rail and Air)

A- Inability to provide any rapid reaction response
B- Lack flexibility to move man and material from one theatre to another ( very imp when we limited capabilities)
C- Require purchase of expensive Aircraft like C-17 ( off course on the transport aircraft discussion folks think that is not
good- not seeing the infra state we are in that drives the need.

4) Air force: well the way AW 101 scandal is going..126 MMRCA is at risk .all it takes is for a poorly researched news expose that points to a corruption and we say "goodbye: to this as well..

Now folks will accuse me of being a Newbie..I can tell you this much I have been following BR since 1997...so if I am tagged as Newbie..so be it...

BTW..this is not a bait as the peanut gallery thinks..but what I see as a poor state with not relief insight..

Sanku wrote:
Sunilchurchill wrote:Who is Hyperventilating...Look at your posts on this topic...Burn them on a stake is your mindset....why do we need this chopper and that is your rationale to cancel..
More hyperventilation, when did I say burn them at the stake? (however now that you mention it, does not sound like a bad idea)

Bottomline...what grounds do you claim that we dont need the 12 choppers...etc..

With not an Iota of proof...you jump the gun to scream murder and cancel the choppers...that is the mindet that has done Indian bad...
Do yourself a favor, actually read some of the many articles posted with analysis than making statements about basics which are already covered.

And no we do not need 12 of these hyper expensive copters, we dont even need 3 (US orderded 3) -- we need ZERO.

The VIPs can fly in a Mi 17 or a ALH or whatever with the necessary ECM suite.

And yes, we will keep discussing-- hard luck with your, "let us not talk about it" campaign.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 20:30

Sunilchurchill wrote:Sanku..seems you have not understood where I am coming from and in the spirit of debate..lets clarify some points here...

The corruption scams and the price the indian defence has had to incurr is unacceptable by any standards...yet all want to cancel everyhing left right and center and off course.

I read this line and stopped. If you want to discuss you should discuss what people have said instead of going on your own tangent.

Please try again. Thank you.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 20 Feb 2013 21:48

Sanku wrote:
Sunilchurchill wrote:Sanku..seems you have not understood where I am coming from and in the spirit of debate..lets clarify some points here...

The corruption scams and the price the indian defence has had to incurr is unacceptable by any standards...yet all want to cancel everyhing left right and center and off course.
I read this line and stopped. If you want to discuss you should discuss what people have said instead of going on your own tangent.

Please try again. Thank you.

Sanku saar, don't you get it? The corruption is unacceptable but the deals should proceed. Otherwise, they may have to return the money!!! The people respondible should be dealt with properly .. by sending dossiers.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 Feb 2013 00:24

Shree AKA is looking more and more like the Pointy Haired Boss

wiki says:

He is notable for his micromanagement, gross incompetence and unawareness of his surroundings, yet somehow retains power in the workplace.

Here are some more from malayalam cartoons from FB:

Translation: Copter bribe: Manmohan says he has nothing to hide

Translation: Copter scam: CBI team in Italy" with the team member saying "oooh! wonderfoool"

peter · Post by **peter** » 21 Feb 2013 05:04

Sunilchurchill wrote:[..]

At the end of the day..there is a Indian legal system..let the accused be tried under the Inidan law and puinished once proven guilty..till than..best to not pass judgement of guilt..

Since you tout ILS why has Quattrochi not been punished? Or the fact that he has not been punished "is a proof" of his innocence?

peter · Post by **peter** » 21 Feb 2013 05:09

Sanku wrote:
merlin wrote: Question is - does he not deserve it?
Oh very much, I hope enough pain is brought down on him so that he squeals who took the other 99% of the bribes.

The problem is he may not know the full picture. It seems the two software firms received huge amounts of money and they laundered it to others. So if someone really wants to get to the bottom of this then the IDS or whatever it is called needs to be grilled.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 21 Feb 2013 07:09

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 601606.cms

Antony, at a seminar on Wednesday, gave enough indications of the new policies in the offing to reverse this trend, holding it was "essential" for India to speed up the indigenisation process to root out corruption from the defence sector.

"Maximum indigenisation" of military hardware is the "ultimate answer" to avoid controversies and ensure "Indian tax-payers' money" is not lost to "greedy players" in the arms business. "It's important the private sector emerges as a major player," he said.

The minister even advised the armed forces, whose modernization often gets derailed in the wake of arms scams, to first look within the country to meet their operational requirements. "Imports should be the last resort," he said.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 21 Feb 2013 07:29

I totally agree with Defence Minister.

If defence is privatised India will emerge as the best defence manufacturing country. We should not buy any defence wares from dumb/corrupt/greedy people. Those guys are further corrupting our system by bribing our corrupt/greedy/dumb guys.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 21 Feb 2013 07:31

All defence manufacturing must be privatised. HAL must be forced to close down the shop.