Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20764
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2014 09:20

vic wrote:Saint is like a honest cashier of mafia family.


Wasnt the reason from Wikileaks we know that Pranab da could not do that well and was shunted out of DM. It seems which ever scams happens the Mafia family gets a pre-difined cut ....if they get caught then they have to own their personal responsibility and move out if not then they get the money and blessings of the family.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2014 09:33

Da did not get along with Ma. So they gave him the title of national Pa, and moved him to the side.

He was too much of a threat, could easily overshadow MMS (who could not, eh?). Part of teh current problem is that there is no one with enough experience to "run" this show, neither Ma, nor munna, nor mms. The only one that could handle it is sitting idle.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby vic » 06 Mar 2014 09:38

Anthony has killed all modernization of OFB, DPSU and kept DRDO on starvation diet budget. His mandate was to import while keeping dhoti clean. So he will import and import any rubbish till mafia family gets it's cut but will slam down whenever fire reaches the saree of waitress. He has zero national interest in mind.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1491
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby srin » 06 Mar 2014 10:44

I'm still baffled by the Rolls Royce deal allegations.

We bought the Hawk, right ? And Hawk comes with the Adour engines made by RR. So - it isn't as if we had a choice about which engine to fit it with. So - what were we negotiating with RR about ?

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12586
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Mar 2014 13:04

human nature is what it is, and desi babu nature is what it is
just as when a government lowers the income tax rate, more tax revenue is collected (because people are more willing to pay than avoid tax)...
...similarly we might need a model where 'some degree' of greasing the wheels is permitted to enable the objectives to be met
it happens in every country and every country has laws and whatnot to govern it, but there remains a blurred line around donations, gifts, dinners, trips, studies, etc., etc. in even the most squeaky clean gora santimonious government, including unkil
we might just need to find the right balance point for that in india

Multatuli
BRFite
Posts: 612
Joined: 06 Feb 2007 06:29
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Multatuli » 06 Mar 2014 13:48

Ramana wrote:

Philip, AKA's modus operandi is instead of finding out who took the bribe in India, he suspends the military contract midway after India paid the money and the goods are not yet delivered.
Piase be gaya, maal be nahi ayaa!!!


For us (PIO's living in Europe, North America) this just doesn't make any sense. In these countries they would find out who paid the bribes and who took the bribes (all of them), both parties would be punished. And they (the Dutch gov. for example) would use the bribery as justification to demand that the entire sum the gov. paid be returned, the company involved in the bribery case wouldn't dare to object.

But looking at it from a point of view of a corrupt Indian politician (like AKA or MMS), it makes perfect sense: AKA knows perfectly well who the people in India are who took (demanded) the bribes! If a truly independent investigation is conducted, then the entire high command of the Indian National Congress Party would be implicated! Therefore, AKA just bans the foreign company. This is not because he is angry with them bribing Congress politicians, but rather because the foreign company "allowed" the matter to come to the surface: they didn't cover it up/hide it properly and the ban is to punish them for that.

Also, AKA/MMS/Congress will not initiate legal action to get the money the government of India already paid back, because much of that money is already deposited in the bank accounts of Congress politicians, and trying to get the money returned would rake up muck that the Congress doesn't need (the company executives might start singing like canaries and name people in India (in the Congress Party). So "saint Anthony" just "forgets" about the money.

And since the Indian media is controlled by Congress Party policians, or foreigners they won't give the Congress politicians/Indian government a hard time about this.

The really surprising thing to me is the reaction, or rather indifference of the Indian public. It's their money the UPA government is looting.

AKA had the gall to lecture the Indian Navy about "frittering away resources" when the UPA government stole close to USD 50 bn in their second term alone (just add the amounts mentioned in the various scams).

Yup, operating 25 year old submarines and and a 50 year old carrier are clear indications of the Indian Navy "living it up"!

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18877
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Philip » 06 Mar 2014 14:07

Lib Dem donor Sudhir Choudhrie dogged by Indian arms and corruption inquiries
In India, Choudrie's reputation has been overshadowed by a series of investigations into allegations of arms dealing, kickbacks on government contracts and illegal money transfers

Anita and Sudhir Choudhrie at the Asian Business Awards 2013 in London
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1064 ... iries.html
By Dean Nelson, and Rahul Bedi, in New Delhi

15 Feb 2014

To his Liberal Democrat friends, including the deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, party donor Sudhir “Bunny” Choudhrie is a philanthropic former tea and coffee trader who runs homes for the elderly and mentally ill.

He raises money for anti-drugs campaigns, promotes education and gives generously to charity, and is therefore an entirely suitable candidate for the life peerage for which the party unsuccessfully nominated him last year.

But in India, his reputation has been overshadowed by a series of investigations into allegations of arms dealing, kickbacks on government contracts and illegal money transfers.

In 2007 India’s Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) claimed he had been paid more than $150,000 (£90,000) commission for an Indian government artillery contract awarded to an Israeli company.

The illegal payment, it claimed, was made to Mr Choudhrie’s company Magnum International Trading Company (MITCO) for its services in helping Israeli manufacturer Soltam win a $471m deal to upgrade India’s antiquated Soviet 130mm artillery to modern 150mm field guns.
Related Articles

Clegg used official homes to host bribery case donor
14 Feb 2014

SFO launches formal bribery investigation at Rolls-Royce
23 Dec 2013

'Rolls-Royce would have sacked me, no matter what'
10 Dec 2012

Rolls-Royce whistleblower's six-year wait
09 Dec 2012

Rolls-Royce vows to cut costs despite profit rise
25 Jul 2013

Rolls-Royce bribery probe includes recent contracts
14 Feb 2014

Officials and fellow Indian businessmen spoke of Mr Choudhrie as one of India’s key arms dealers who specialised in winning government weapons deals for Israeli and Russian firms.

The deal was investigated as one of a number of allegedly corrupt contracts awarded by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government when the Congress Party-led coalition came to power in the 2004 election.

Mr Choudhrie denied he had ever been involved in arms deals and claimed he had been a victim of a plot to damage his reputation.

As detectives investigated his alleged role in the Soltam deal and explored his international network of companies and their money trails, Mr Choudhrie shifted his operations from Delhi – where he is believed to own two homes in the upmarket Sunder Nagar neighbourhood and a three-acre farmhouse close to the airport – to London, where he already had business and property interests.

According to friends, he did not return to India until after the CBI finally announced it was closing the investigation against him in 2011.

In its submission to the court to withdraw the case, the CBI said that the payments it had suspected were bribes in fact related to an agreement MITCO had signed with Soltam to sell its stainless steel kitchen utensils.

After the case was dropped, the judge ordered a new inquiry by India’s Enforcement Directorate into a series of suspicious transactions, but no charges have materialised.

Today Mr Choudhrie travels freely to India, where the business empire he shares with his son Bhanu includes a network of cinemas, “lifestyle malls”, five-star hotels, and Ananda, one of the world’s top destination spas in the Himalayan foothills close to Rishikesh, overlooking the holy River Ganges.

He and Bhanu, who controls the family’s property interests through his Alpha G Corporation, together promote the GG2 leadership and diversity awards ceremony for Britain’s most prominent Asian – last year they gave the award to Malala Yousufzai, the Pakistani schoolgirl who was shot because she defied the Taliban over her right to go to school.

They also organise charity cricket matches to promote health campaigns. Sudhir Choudhrie, now 65, had a heart transplant in 1999 and recently told guests his greatest achievement was to still be alive.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2014 22:35

:roll:

Rolls Royce to return to govt Rs 18 crore paid to commission agents

Facing the heat of a CBI probe in an alleged bribery scandal, British firm Rolls Royce has written to the state-owned HAL that it was ready to return Rs 18 crore paid by it to its commission agents to the government.

The defence ministry ordered a CBI probe into Rolls Royce's alleged hiring of middlemen in contracts worth around Rs 10,000 crore for supplying aircraft engines to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Rolls Royce has written a letter to the HAL on March 5 claiming that it has paid only 1. 8 million pounds (Rs 18 crore) as commission to its agent Aashmore Private Limited and was willing to return that amount to the Government, senior government sources told PTI here.

The aerospace PSU is now planning to forward the letter to the government for further action on the matter, they said.

The defence ministry has already put on hold all existing and future deals with Rolls Royce pending a CBI probe ordered into allegations of bribery and engaging middlemen in contracts for supply of aircraft engines to HAL.

HAL has also been asked to take action to recover from the London-based Rolls Royce the money paid by it to its commission agents.

The decisions were taken even as Rolls Royce in a letter written to HAL in December last admitted it had employed a Singapore-based person identified as Ashok Patni and his firm Aashmore Private Limited as "commercial adviser" in India, providing sales and logistical support, local business support and "strategic advice."

"The firm has informed HAL that it has paid commissions to Aashmore Private Limited for clinching military deals and the amount ranged ranged between 10 and 11.3%," sources said.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18877
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Philip » 10 Mar 2014 04:05

IT in its latest issue has a feature condemning St.Anthony as the worst patron saint ever of Indian defence. The most outrageous act of his in his entire disgraceful and shameful career has been to judge himself,painting himself as a paragon of virtue (while actually a turd rate liar), despite the atrocious handling of the MOD in his time.St.Anthony,"By the grace of GOD please GO!"....before India kicks you out .

Antony judges himself: MoD releases 11,000-word press release in praise of Defence Minister

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ak-a ... 47021.html

The first thing to do on reading the ministry of defence's (MoD) 11,000-word press release on Wednesday, hailing the signal contribution of A.K. Antony's tenure as defence minister, is to see it as one big election-related advertisement. The second is to laugh at it as a sick joke, and the third thing to do is to sit down and cry.

At a time when people are wondering whether the sainted Antony is the second or third-worst defence minister of the country, you can only wonder whether the release induces verbal diarrhoea or prolix flatulence.

Reading from the bottom upward we are treated to the minister appropriating the glory of the Indian armed forces sportsmen and women, from Vijay Kumar who won the silver medal at the London Olympics, to Indian women Air Force officers who climbed Mt. Everest. Elections are on hand, so Antony has basked in the sun of humanitarian relief carried out by the forces, even while claiming credit for just about all of DRDO's reported achievements.

Click here to Enlarge
The high spin is brought out by a table on capital expenditure on modernisation. It purports to show that the utilisation of the Budget ranged from 98.17 per cent in 2005-2006 to an astonishing 101.32 in 2012-13. But look carefully at the figures and what do you see?

In 2012-13, a sum of Rs.79,578.63 crore was budgeted for capital expenditure on modernisation. But Rs.10,000 crore was lopped off it for the sake of economy and the revised estimate was Rs.69,578.63 crore. The actual expenditure was Rs.70,499.12 crore which naturally yielded a utilisation rate of 101.32 per cent. Instead of saying that the services got Rs.10,000 crore less and the Indian Air Force was unable to go in for the Rafale deal, the minister has declared victory.

The issue is not the numbers which the MoD weaves before us, showing how well the forces were funded in Saint Antony's tenure. What matters are the persisting and dangerous gaps that remained unfilled because of the delay and incompetence of the ministry headed by him.

In March of 2012, the then Army chief V.K. Singh had written a letter to him complaining of critical shortages of tank ammunition, the obsolescence of most of India's air defence artillery and lack of equipment for the Special Forces. This was over four years after Antony had been the defence minister of the country.

More to the electoral point is the claim to glory for the Prime Minister's inaugural of the naval academy at Ezhimala, Kerala. The press release notes that the academy was inaugurated by the PM in January 2009. The facts of the matter are that the decision to set up the academy was approved as far back as 1979 and the foundation stone for the academy was laid by Rajiv Gandhi in 1987. And it goes on, the fudges, the spin and outright lies.

Tejas "got clearance for induction in Air Force with the handing over of the 'Release to Service Document' by Antony to the Chief of Air Staff on 20 December 2013". Strangely enough, the DRDO had claimed that this clearance, called Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was given in January 2011 also. At present all we have are test aircraft. The HAL will make the first IOC aircraft by mid-2014, and the second by the end of the year and the full squadron will only be ready by 2016-17 and then only will the process of giving it Final Operational Clearance (FOC) begin.

The biggest boast is about the induction of INS Vikramaditya. The MoD release fails to mention that it so botched up the deal that in October 2007 the Russians hiked the cost of refurbishment to $1.2 billion, an astonishing 137 per cent increase over the original price. And, because of the poor planning by the MoD, the ship does not have a close-in air defence system, or a long-range surface-to-air missile. Both will be fitted in the coming years.

At the end of the day Antony and his MoD have simply failed to realise that it is not through a simple accretion of weapons systems that makes a national defence system vibrant. It requires the political and bureaucratic machinery to work in synergy with the armed forces. It needs modern decision-making structures at the apex level and, above all, it requires political leadership. It is in these vital areas that Antony has failed the nation.

- The writer is Contributing Editor, Mail Today

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ak-a ... 47021.html


With an intestinal parasite like Anthony who cries "victory!" ,who the F*CK needs defeat?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18877
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Philip » 10 Mar 2014 07:09

ST Anthony throws in the Dhoti!

Stung by condemnation from all sides in the country,the much hated patron saint of the armed forces,is throwing in his dhoti-announced that he will not stand for election,and is assumed to be shortly returning by flight to paradise ,"God's own country",Kerala! There amongst the other angelic figures-his kith and kin,St.Anthony secretly nurtures hopes of becoming the archangel of God's own Country (GOC) yet again at the next ecclesiastical congress of the holy men of GOC.He has correctly deciphered the "writing on the wall" "moving finger",in the halls of Neo-Babylon (New Delhi),where the King ,Singh Bulsh*ttczar serf to the Roman empress Sonia, rules precariously.His kingdom will shortly be taken from him and divided to the Modis and his Persuasions!

PS:A great cartoon in the Hindu by Keshav.It shows St.Anthony at his desk with his "IN' Box full of coffins!

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby abhik » 10 Mar 2014 08:55

Last I heard the Saint was not able to encash the 1000 cr + bank guarantee from Augusta Westland promising not to indulge in corruption in the VIP deal. Was that included in the list of achievements?

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9516
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 18 Mar 2014 09:57

Italy judge rejects India bid to recover AgustaWestland guarantees


An Italian judge has rejected a request by India to recover more than 278 million euros in bank guarantees backing a scrapped helicopter deal with Finmeccanica, the Italian defence group said on Monday.

India cancelled the 560 million-euro order with Finmeccanica unit AgustaWestland for 12 top-end helicopters in January, citing a breach of integrity relating to alleged corruption.

The ruling by a Milan court in favour of AgustaWestland, which is represented by Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, confirms a temporary freeze decided by the same court in January.

The New Delhi government can still appeal against it.

"The Milan court has confirmed the ruling made last January, prohibiting... the payment of collateral of more than 278 million euros deposited in relation to the contract," Finmeccanica said in a statement.

Sources had earlier informed Reuters of the court decision.


SO what sort of bank guarantees are taken for defense deal which can not be en-cashed. I think Govt has to devise new methods.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20764
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2014 12:49

More likely to be that they cannot encash the money till the court proceeding is ongoing and till there is a final verdict on it. Looks more like legal prohibition rather then technical restrictions.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby vic » 18 Mar 2014 15:17

The whole point of Bank Guarantee is that we should be able to encase it, no question asked without litigation. If required Agusta Westland should recover the money of encashed Bank Guarantee by arbitration. But the laws are different for Goras. frankly, now RBI should release a circular that no Bank Guarantee by Italian Banks will now be accepted in any transaction. But that's not going to happen as Agusta would have already paid loads of bribes into Swiss accounts of, we know which family.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18877
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Philip » 18 Mar 2014 18:37

UNtil the money is paid in full and with interest,the Italian marines must never set foot in Italy again
As for Scamtnony,his utter disregard for moral propriety in not resigning after scam after scam,plus the colossal loss of almost 400M Euros to the nation,a PIL case before the SC against him for fraud and dereliction of duty should be filed.

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 453
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Ankit Desai » 15 Jul 2014 18:50

CBI chargesheets Lt General (retired) Tejinder Singh in Tatra Bribery case - Headline IBNLive

-Ankit

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 453
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Postby Ankit Desai » 16 Jul 2014 19:15

Tatra case: Gen V K Singh informed Antony about bribe offer, says CBI

"A K Antony, Raksha Mantri, in his statement in Parliament on March 27, 2012 and the one recorded under section 161 CrPC during investigation, has confirmed having been informed by Gen V K Singh about such offer of bribe made to him about one to one-and-a-half-year ago by Lt Gen(retd.) Tejinder Singh,"
CBI has claimed in its charge sheet.

During investigation A K Antony admitted having been informed by Gen V K Singh with respect to offer of bribe by Lt Gen (retd.) Tejinder Singh for clearing the Tatra trucks purchase file,"
CBI

General V K Singh on July 25, 2010 (on request of Lt Gen (retd) Tejinder Singh) had issued a letter to S S Menon, National Security Advisor, recommending Lt Gen (retd.) Tejinder Singh for the post of Chief of National Technical Research Organization (NTRO). This proves that the COAS (V K Singh) and Lt Gen (retd.) Tejinder Singh had excellent working relations till the alleged offer of bribe was made by him to the COAS,"
the charge sheet said.

-Ankit

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 29 Jul 2014 16:07

Victor wrote:
Karan M wrote:The seeker technology we are chasing is for multiple applications. A high power seeker such as on the PDV is a breakthrough, which means tomorrow we can make seekers for other applications as the first step has been taken. Hence, there is an informal veto on passing such technologies to India, until & unless we agree to very expensive, large programs that include these sort of technologies. One example is the SRSAM where the agreement is to include MBDA developed seeker tech to be made in India. Similarly, we are licensing the smaller, less capable (than the PDV) Agat seeker for our Astra program. Hence, for the PDV we tasked the same firms which worked on the LCA MMR to make the seeker. BARC/ECIL (ECIL is owned by DAE but works on defense programs) did the gimbal assembly, and the first seeker prototypes were apparently reworked from MMR tech.

For the average jingo, the above quote is nice-sounding stuff that indicates we are progressing vaguely in the right direction. The point is that given the resources available in India, we are not progressing anywhere near fast enough. The DPSUs have not delivered desperately needed bread-and-butter items like guns, bullets, tanks, aircraft, smart bombs, MANPADs, AAMs and ATGMs but hey, we make seekers.

None of this seeker-pheeker, radar-shaydar stuff need be monumental voodoo for us in this day and age IF we lose the fixation on socialist-era DPSUs. They need to go, period. With very few exceptions, they are badly leaking rust buckets and it doesn't matter how much money we pour into them or how good the engineers are, they will never be as productive as Indian companies that compete successfully in the global market. We need to bite the bullet, privatize what we can and pension off the folks who won't cut it on civvie street.



In the case of tanks, EVERYONE knows about the Arjun saga and people like you have the gall to accuse anyone, but the primary culprit i.e. IA. That itself shows your bias and prejudice. You are just hiding behind the "so called" deficiencies of DPSUs and even the DRDO to indulge in fantasies about importing every nut and screw from abroad, of course notwithstanding the customary platitudes about privatization (which everyone knows is for the longterm).

When anything low-tech is accomplished by the homegrown efforts, you dismiss them as primitive. When anything advance is accomplished, promptly you point fingers at the low-tech needs that remain unfulfilled (mostly due to delays by the MOD and in some cases IA).

DRDO has its hands tied trying to juggle the fantastical requirements imposed on indigenous projects (while forgetting such stringent requirements for foreign equipment, made quite frankly to the requirements of some foreign military) and the bean counting baboons who wanna nit pick at every paisa in every project.

Projects that get completed don't get the approval of the military and because of that projects do not get initiated by DRDO/DPSUs on their own (as well as the brittle rules that tie their hands on funding/balance sheet). The very same military (of course not all of them) then quotes the unavailability of domestic alternatives and insists on importing gold plated toys from abroad.

Critics like you and the DDM have a lot of characteristics in common and that itself explains where both are coming from.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 30 Jul 2014 06:39

Victor wrote:
Shalav wrote:As an Indian citizen I ask the question - Why can the Navy with the lesser financial resources, and the same DRDO produce world-class ships, while the Indian Army with much greater resources...

The Indian Navy has the largest sanctioned pool of Naval Architects in India. The Army has no such sanction to finance even a small weapons engineering branch (probably because OFB would be put out of business). How then do we expect them to jump into designing guns? Same with the IAF, it doesn't have an aeronautical engineering branch although they are getting there via Maintenance Command and are talking about building planes themselves. This talk about no interest or support forthcoming from Army and IAF for guns and aircraft is absolute rubbish and doesn't deserve a retort.

As a concerned Indian, it is more fitting to ask why "the Navy with the less financial resources, and the same DRDO" produces ships with foreign engines, gearboxes and weapons systems. Better than buying off the shelf for sure but still not "Indian". Is it being suggested that we can't do better?


^Here we go, can't defend the incompetence of army generals (some of them), who have lacked the vision and the substance to grow an indigenous mil-ind complex for the IA, so you point fingers the IN for whatever they have accomplished (which is spectacular compared to IA and IAF).

The very same people who criticize the Navy for using equipment that is not available locally (for real) due to the lack of technology or it being low volume specialized items that only a few companies/countries worldwide make (even USA uses OTO Melara guns) would be happy to junk whatever indigenous content is procured and go whole hog for 100% imports. This illogical prejudice and bias is masked under a guise of asking for accountability, privatization and painting the "real" (not so glorious) picture about IN indigenisation.

This is beyond disgusting. To defend the incompetence of one service (due to a few bad eggs) you point fingers at another one that is doing much much much better?

devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5115
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby devesh » 30 Jul 2014 07:08

crisis points don't necessarily need to be wars. wars, of course, can be a huge stimulus for national govts to get rid of incompetent leadership and instill new directions and spirit.

but crises can be created even under "peace-time" by a national Premier who knows how to do it. if there is entrenched inertial against any efforts towards growth of Indian MIC within the IA or the larger Armed forces; then the solution is to root out the source of this inertia.

the only obstacle will be the issue of "precedence" and "constitutional powers" of the PM. but reform in its very nature is radical. it is not for status-quo. it is for those who wish to break the rules of the past and put in place rules of their own making. it will take guts for sure. but is this even a priority for GOI? I'm not talking about clearing budgets for projects. I'm talking about real reform. the kind that can only come from the top-down, and once in place, will set the new direction and become the new-normal.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2645
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 30 Jul 2014 08:52

Arun Menon wrote:^Here we go, can't defend the incompetence of army generals (some of them), who have lacked the vision and the substance to grow an indigenous mil-ind complex for the IA, so you point fingers the IN for whatever they have accomplished (which is spectacular compared to IA and IAF).

Do you know which generals took the bribes or are you simply speculating that some generals must be corrupt because the (insert item here) didn't get the go ahead?

Also, do you seriously believe that Army would have the expertise, resources and sanction to "grow an indigenous mil-ind complex"? Why not just hand over OFB and CVRDE to army so they can't blame anyone but themselves and be done with it? And while at it, hand HAL over to the IAF? Please think this through.

This illogical prejudice and bias is masked under a guise of asking for accountability, privatization and painting the "real" (not so glorious) picture about IN indigenisation.

No one is criticizing the Navy as it's not their fault that India can't/won't/doesn't make it own engines, gearboxes, guns and systems. Besides, they are also fed up with the shipyards and want a change. But I'm curious, what exactly do you have against accountability and privatization?

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2155
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby merlin » 30 Jul 2014 09:50

Victor wrote:
Shalav wrote:As an Indian citizen I ask the question - Why can the Navy with the lesser financial resources, and the same DRDO produce world-class ships, while the Indian Army with much greater resources...

The Indian Navy has the largest sanctioned pool of Naval Architects in India. The Army has no such sanction to finance even a small weapons engineering branch (probably because OFB would be put out of business). How then do we expect them to jump into designing guns? Same with the IAF, it doesn't have an aeronautical engineering branch although they are getting there via Maintenance Command and are talking about building planes themselves. This talk about no interest or support forthcoming from Army and IAF for guns and aircraft is absolute rubbish and doesn't deserve a retort.

As a concerned Indian, it is more fitting to ask why "the Navy with the less financial resources, and the same DRDO" produces ships with foreign engines, gearboxes and weapons systems. Better than buying off the shelf for sure but still not "Indian". Is it being suggested that we can't do better?


Complete BS. There was a famous saying by an Indian politician - we take the IA seriously, listen to the IAF and humour the IN (or something along those lines). IN had/has far lesser clout with the MoD and the Def Min and yet they got it done. The IA failed doing something similar in assault rifles, tanks, artillery, armoured vehicles. The list is looooooong. Let the IA get something in the tank department even with foreign engine, gearboxes and weapons systems. Are they even designing and building a tank hull, turret? T-90 is completely designed in Russia/Sov Union.

IN has a co-development, complete ownership attitude. IA has a customer attitude including being a super tough and demanding customer lording over DRDO (they can't lord over OFB because the unions there have greater clout than the IA). Same goes for the IAF.

Rien
BRFite
Posts: 267
Joined: 24 Oct 2004 07:17
Location: Brisbane, Oz

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rien » 30 Jul 2014 11:16

Victor wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:^Here we go, can't defend the incompetence of army generals (some of them), who have lacked the vision and the substance to grow an indigenous mil-ind complex for the IA, so you point fingers the IN for whatever they have accomplished (which is spectacular compared to IA and IAF).

Do you know which generals took the bribes or are you simply speculating that some generals must be corrupt because the (insert item here) didn't get the go ahead?


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/scam ... 79496.html
http://www.timesnow.tv/Excl-Indian-Army ... 404983.cms
http://www.siliconindia.com/news/genera ... cid-1.html
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Corr ... 76421.html
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_con ... erspective

Some generals? SOME? What planet are you from? I would in addition add the T-90 procurement over the Arjun. That calls for an investigation. In addition, the Smerch acquisition when the Pinaka Mark3 with 120 km range is in development doens't make any sense.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7571
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 30 Jul 2014 11:44

Rien wrote:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/scam ... 79496.html
http://www.timesnow.tv/Excl-Indian-Army ... 404983.cms
http://www.siliconindia.com/news/genera ... cid-1.html
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Corr ... 76421.html
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_con ... erspective

Some generals? SOME? What planet are you from? I would in addition add the T-90 procurement over the Arjun. That calls for an investigation. In addition, the Smerch acquisition when the Pinaka Mark3 with 120 km range is in development doens't make any sense.


You should check your facts before morphing into keyboard ninja!

T-90 induction over Arjun is more to do with organizational inertia and a whole lot of generation of armored corps officers earning their spurs on T-72. There was resistance to Arjun even befoey the first 15 were inducted. Two man versus three man crew and all that. As it is, when first and second batch of T-90 came in, Arjun was not ready. Even biggest opponents of IA have not accused it of financial scam with respect to T-90 purchase. Pigheadedness, yes but no scam.

Scam is that someone in IA should've had the guts to stand up and clearly lay down it's position. Rather than make the product to jump through hoops and using delay tactics. And trying to kill the project through ulterior means. And wasting Tax payers money in the process.

On SMERCH - do you know when it was in inducted? 2006 was when it entered service. Even Pinaka Mk1 was not ready by then. Mk1 was ordered in 2008 and entered service by 2010. ARDE has NOW tested a 65 km range version in 2014 after 5 year development period...there is still no clarity on 120 km range version.

So, pipe down, take a deep breath and chant OM!

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9539
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jul 2014 12:03

wasn't Smerch ordered during operation Parakram.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2014 14:37

For every scam that came to light there were a few which stay hidden. Ordering 100's (over 1000?) T90s AFTER the Arjun was in production is simply difficult to digest without some 'daal mein kuch kala'. What I find surprising that over the years arms companies from around the globe have been caught in corruption scandals but never once have the Russian been caught in the act (at least AFAIK).

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 30 Jul 2014 15:11

Victor wrote:what exactly do you have against accountability and privatization?


I object to them being used as excuses for delaying and smothering hard-earned indigenous defense accomplishments like the Arjun. Everyone and his mother knows that accountability and privatization will be a slow and gradual process. Meanwhile you kill a product like the Arjun and a generation of knowledge and know how is lost in the process, making way for more imports. This dirty game is being played time and again, and now people are waking up to it and refusing to take such fig leaves.

Accountability and privatization need to be instilled in the nascent Indian mil-ind complex as fast as it can be, but meanwhile the IA needs to face some accountability, accept the Arjun in real numbers and junk further orders for tincans.

They order a crappy product like the tincan after farcical trials and then wait forever to make them usable in our conditions, which it still is not, all the while sabotaging the Arjun tank.

This is insufferable. This cannot be accepted anymore.

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 18:03

abhik wrote: What I find surprising that over the years arms companies from around the globe have been caught in corruption scandals but never once have the Russian been caught in the act (at least AFAIK).


well one simple reason could be half of the times the payments made to russians was not in $$$ or any currency but more like a barter trade.

for example: T-72 payments were done in exchange of bananas(any other goods ;) ) and not ruble or rupee or dollar

Plus all russian deals are govt. to govt. contracts no scope of private companies coming in and bribing someone with cash or kind

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 18:16

Arun Menon wrote:Meanwhile you kill a product like the Arjun and a generation of knowledge and know how is lost in the process, making way for more imports. This dirty game is being played time and again, and now people are waking up to it and refusing to take such fig leaves.


who killed ARJUN... ??? thats a news item!!!

ARJUN Mk1 is in service
ARJUN Mk 2 order is already placed
ARJUN Mk 3 will come after Mk2

If this is called killing 'ARJUN'

Accountability and privatization need to be instilled in the nascent Indian mil-ind complex as fast as it can be, but meanwhile the IA needs to face some accountability, accept the Arjun in real numbers and junk further orders for tincans.


Junking the so called tincans will be like - " leaving a rented home before the home you bought is even ready to stay. so where does one stay - footpath"

They order a crappy product like the tincan after farcical trials and then wait forever to make them usable in our conditions, which it still is not, all the while sabotaging the Arjun tank.

This is insufferable. This cannot be accepted anymore.


dont accept it no one is forcing you, its a democracy not autocracy.
Sabotaging ARJUN is a LIE spread by media and vested interest groups
farcical trails - were you part of those trials ? do you have evidence to prove your point?

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 18:24

Rien wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/scam ... 79496.html
http://www.timesnow.tv/Excl-Indian-Army ... 404983.cms
http://www.siliconindia.com/news/genera ... cid-1.html
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Corr ... 76421.html
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_con ... erspective

Some generals? SOME? What planet are you from? I would in addition add the T-90 procurement over the Arjun. That calls for an investigation. In addition, the Smerch acquisition when the Pinaka Mark3 with 120 km range is in development doens't make any sense.


All the above links are vested interest group sponsored, check the author's credibility, you might be surprised.

By the time Pinaka Mk3 will be ready for induction Smerch will be at end-of-life.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2014 20:08

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote: What I find surprising that over the years arms companies from around the globe have been caught in corruption scandals but never once have the Russian been caught in the act (at least AFAIK).


well one simple reason could be half of the times the payments made to russians was not in $$$ or any currency but more like a barter trade.

for example: T-72 payments were done in exchange of bananas(any other goods ;) ) and not ruble or rupee or dollar

Plus all russian deals are govt. to govt. contracts no scope of private companies coming in and bribing someone with cash or kind

1. The barter system and 'friendly prices' ended with with the soviet collapse over two decades ago.
2. How does a government to government deal preclude bribery. By the way there are other under hand ways like honey traps etc.

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 20:22

abhik wrote:1. The barter system and 'friendly prices' ended with with the soviet collapse over two decades ago.


well Russians have the most 'friendly prices' vs US/ NATO countries for us still.

2. How does a government to government deal preclude bribery. By the way there are other under hand ways like honey traps etc.

honey trap = ? (money)
what will 1 govt. achieve by bribing other govt., when going govt - govt in a particular case has been already decided.

negi
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 12913
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Trying to mellow down :)

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 30 Jul 2014 21:06

When it comes to the desi arms business the Russians when compared to the competition are 1 generation ahead i.e. they are well entrenched in the system (I know quite a few in middleman business , not long ago it used to be a lucrative career option after retiring from services) they don't deal directly but influence the deal through the layers of players which exist in the ecosystem today. Just like in the Enterprise SW space a big SW co might not always sell it's product directly but might get a foot in the door via a partner (joint sales or even an implementation vendor) the Russians too come in via wheeler dealers who during the day time work as some XYZ ltd. providing spares and nut and bolt kind of stuff for the military platforms (read Russian weapons as even as we speak at least 60-70& of backbone platforms across services are of Ru origin). The margins in this space are huge and that is why lot of retired high ranking aphsars are in this business.

The weapon trials are by and large a hogwash just like most of the government run tests the winner has already been decided and RFP's tailored for the prospective suitor . When pitashri was still serving he told me without even flinching a muscle that if military deals were to be investigated like their civillain counterparts then all of them would fall under 2G or coal gate type buckets. In a system where processes are archaic and on top of that opaque it is virtually impossible to keep a deal clean. :)

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2014 21:17

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote:1. The barter system and 'friendly prices' ended with with the soviet collapse over two decades ago.


well Russians have the most 'friendly prices' vs US/ NATO countries for us still.

Hardly. The lower costs of russian wares is more because of their lower quality.
2. How does a government to government deal preclude bribery. By the way there are other under hand ways like honey traps etc.

honey trap = ? (money)
what will 1 govt. achieve by bribing other govt., when going govt - govt in a particular case has been already decided.

Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Jul 2014 21:31

abhik wrote: ...
....
2. How does a government to government deal preclude bribery. By the way there are other under hand ways like honey traps etc.


The US FMS is the model. Any 'facilitating payments' are a violation of the FCPA

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/

Govt to government deals where there are such protections in place.

SanjayC
BRFite
Posts: 1558
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SanjayC » 30 Jul 2014 21:34

abhik wrote:Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?


Here you go:

Image

Indian Navy chief caught in Russian 'honeytrap'

An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.

Commodore Sukhjunder Singh has been under investigation by a military Board of Inquiry since a CD containing the images of him in bed with a blonde Russian woman were sent to New Delhi's Naval Headquarters last month.

It is understood there is, as yet, no evidence that the 'honeytrap' influenced Commodore Singh's behaviour in negotiations to buy the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier from Russia, but investigators have not ruled out the possibility.

Investigators believe the photographs were taken between 2005 and 2007 when he was a captain posted as an observer to Severodvinsk base on the country's North-West coast.

At that time he was head of a large technical delegation sent to oversee repairs and the refitting of the vessel in the run-up to it being commissioned as the INS Vikramaditya. Then, India had agreed to buy the Soviet-era carrier, launched in 1982, for $800 million, including a full refit. But costs quickly began to rise and eventually led to a diplomatic dispute between India and Russia.

Now the costs have reached an estimated $2.33 (£1.5 billion), almost £1 billion higher than originally agreed and military chiefs fear Commodore Singh's honey trap may have been part of a campaign to influence Indian Navy specialists assessing the repairs and upgrades.

Sources close to India's defence establishment however believe he is now facing dismissal from his Navy post for "immoral conduct unbecoming of an officer." The newly refitted INS Vikramaditya is expected to be formally commissioned into the Indian Navy in 2012.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2014 21:40

Cosmo_R wrote:The US FMS is the model. Any 'facilitating payments' are a violation of the FCPA

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/

Govt to government deals where there are such protections in place.

All that depends on the implementation of the rules. In any case I don't expect the Russians to give a damn about ethics.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2014 21:55

SanjayC wrote:
abhik wrote:Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?


Here you go:

Indian Navy chief caught in Russian 'honeytrap'

An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.


Exactly.

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 22:11

abhik wrote:Hardly. The lower costs of russian wares is more because of their lower quality.


quality is a very subjective term.

please give us an example in terms of a weapon system we bought

Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?

you think US does not do it? or our intelligence cannot figure out the US honey trap ?

if you believe honey trapping generals then babus then politicos in one deal is possible then how are you sure these same people will do any good for INDIA, so all need to be changed right?

we have such generals n babus n politicos who can be honey trapped in a Govt - Govt deal and our intelligence does not come to know? some times honey traps are allowed, its called intelligence game .....

if our generals n babus n politicos are such low level people what will change if RU changes to US or Changes to Private sector..... I believe Pvt Sector is most corrupt, because of being private sector... no rules.. no ethics ... no policies ... private sector by nature is only for profit by hook or crook

d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby d_berwal » 30 Jul 2014 22:24

SanjayC wrote:An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.


this is called propaganda.. western intelligences at its best under UPA... kill your own self to help your masters.

no one to deny, no one to accept... no one knows the pic is real or fake... put doubt in people mind when you know there will be no counter... as its an intelligence game being played.

you think RAW/ IB/ ?? did not know every step and every moment of the alleged important person in foreign land ? If yes, changing RU to US or Anyone does not matter and should not matter.

I believe this report was there to sabotage the deal or to delay it and they succeeded in delay.... partially.... because it gave UPA a chance to delay the decision.

and the said link you post is from a uk sight ... we need to believe what uk puts up in a news website... because they want to help US and save us from?


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chinmay, deejay and 43 guests