Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

[JaiS]

Former navy chief hits back at govt with RTI

[Kartik]

As you said, Americans advertise a lot. But, they also arm twist a lot, bribe a lot.. On top of that, they are capable of BLACKMAILING a lot, which most of the Indian officials & politicians are vulnerable to, because most of them are corrupt and has got something to conceal.

There is no harm in advertising. If anything, that’s smart sales and India has a lot to learn in that department.

BRF is a forum where people are generally asked to back up their claims or bombast. Please back up your claims regarding blackmail of Indian politicians, bribes paid to Indian politicians, etc. if the rot lies within our own political and bureaucratic community, why are you making the US out to be devils ?

I know for a fact that in Boeing, ethics is considered VERY important, with employees having to go through hours of ethics related training. if anything else, FMS sales are the least likely to ridden with corruption, because it’s the GoI dealing directly with the GoTUS and even a whiff of corruption in any such deal and their political careers are over.

Why are you singling out the US as being capable of bribes ? Do you think the Israelis are a clean bunch ? or the Europeans ?

Add to that the lure of American life for their kith and kin, they will be more than willing to sell their country.

this is just a lot of nonsense. the same applies to most of the Indian middle-class. you mean to say all of them are willing to "sell" their country ?!

There are exceptions of course, but our system of decision making is vulnerable to external forces. It is true to a lesser extent with Russian, European, Israeli systems. it is a question of choosing a lesser evil right now.

There is a lot of smoke in deals related to Russians, Israelis and Europeans and I don't even need to quote which ones, since a google search will yield you a lot of info. to say that they are less corrupt is hogwash to be polite.

My only issue with the US imports are the export restrictions laid down and the probability that some Senator with sympathy for Pakistan may introduce a legislation that may block spares, support, etc. later on down the line, or that they may punish India for carrying out any further nuke tests (which IMHO are absolutely necessary for India to have a credible deterrant)

[shyamd]

Israel Channel 2 is appealing to the Supreme court order that allowed Israeli Military intelligence to censor kickbacks regarding deals with India and Turkey. Israel is scared that it could damage defense ties with India and Turkey which contribute close to 30% of deals. Indian middlemen and government officials to bribed for the sale of military gear by IAI, Soltam-IMI and Rafael

[Raveen]

As you said, Americans advertise a lot. But, they also arm twist a lot, bribe a lot.. On top of that, they are capable of BLACKMAILING a lot, which most of the Indian officials & politicians are vulnerable to, because most of them are corrupt and has got something to conceal. Add to that the lure of American life for their kith and kin, they will be more than willing to sell their country.

There are exceptions of course, but our system of decision making is vulnerable to external forces. It is true to a lesser extent with Russian, European, Israeli systems. it is a question of choosing a lesser evil right now.

Geeth, I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'; well typically you either state facts or back up your opinion with evidence. In this case I am sure you can find evidence of bribes, kickbacks etc etc for every military deal by every country. So in my opinion please think before you spew your partly paranoid, generally misplaced, somewhat outdated and obsolete and definately prejudiced opinions/rants.

Most of us here are not Gurus, and those who are have a valuable opinion; the rest of us are better served sticking to facts, there is less chance of someone not liking the smell of our opinion, after all I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'. Just my opinion...no offence.
Thanks
Raveen

[putnanja]

There is no harm in advertising. If anything, that’s smart sales and India has a lot to learn in that department.

BRF is a forum where people are generally asked to back up their claims or bombast. Please back up your claims regarding blackmail of Indian politicians, bribes paid to Indian politicians, etc. if the rot lies within our own political and bureaucratic community, why are you making the US out to be devils ?

I know for a fact that in Boeing, ethics is considered VERY important, with employees having to go through hours of ethics related training. if anything else, FMS sales are the least likely to ridden with corruption, because it’s the GoI dealing directly with the GoTUS and even a whiff of corruption in any such deal and their political careers are over.
...

The number of deals under investigation for corruption in the MoD is an indicator of the rot in our system( Bofors, HDW, Scorpene, Howitzers, coffins etc). And other countries just exploit the greediness of our administration to push their wares. But the Americans are not any better compared to other countries like Russia, Israel, Europe etc. All of us know that investigation into BAe's dealings with Saudi Arabia for eurofighters was brushed under the carpet.

Boeing too has had its share of corruption. I know of one instance where Boeing offered a job to USAF official, which came to light and the contract was subsequently cancelled. While US has tough laws for arms companies which include them giving declaration that they haven't bribed anyone ( including overseas customers), the companies have become more sophisticated in how they "deal" with this law. Many companies use their overseas arms to oil the wheels.

One thing to learn from americans is the sophisticated way of advertising and "oiling the wheels". One look at the current financial meltdown where the regulators did a poor job ( madoff scandal, selling off Merill Lynch etc for e.g) shows how old boys network and other methods are used to get things moving.

The point I am trying to make is that it is known that defence deals have a certain element of dirtyness about it. It is not a domain of one particular country or company though.

My main objection to US arms sales are more to do with their administration's ability to impose sanctions rather than anything else.

One question I have about FMS sale though is, are the prices negotiated or are they list prices submitted by the company?

[Kartik]

But the Americans are not any better compared to other countries like Russia, Israel, Europe etc. All of us know that investigation into BAe's dealings with Saudi Arabia for eurofighters was brushed under the carpet.

the investigation was to be done by the Brits and it was their PM who had it brushed under the carpet to save jobs. What did the Americans have to do with British Aerospace bribing corrupt Shaikhs ?

Boeing too has had its share of corruption. I know of one instance where Boeing offered a job to USAF official, which came to light and the contract was subsequently cancelled. While US has tough laws for arms companies which include them giving declaration that they haven't bribed anyone ( including overseas customers), the companies have become more sophisticated in how they "deal" with this law. Many companies use their overseas arms to oil the wheels.

That was nothing compared to the kickbacks that the Europeans, Israelis and the Russian arms mafia is known to have done. How does Boeing offering someone a job to influence their decision compare with running over and killing an Indian Navy officer who dared to expose the Russian arms mafia ? to suggest that that one incident shows that all Boeing or US arms deals are tainted is wrong, because there are much tighter safeguards and far more watchdogs in place in the US to deal with arms corruption. and Boeing was penalised very heavily for offering that woman a job- how were any other non-US companies punished by their govt.s when their corrupt practices came to light ? the Brits defended ending the investigation into Al-Yamamah by saying that if it went ahead, thousands of jobs would be lost.

The point I am trying to make is that it is known that defence deals have a certain element of dirtyness about it. It is not a domain of one particular country or company though.

which is not what Geeth was trying to say. he/she was implying that America is blackmailing our corrupt netas and bribing them to buy their goods. there hasn't been even a single accusation raised in all of the deals that the GoI has signed with the US through the FMS process. not even one.

My main objection to US arms sales are more to do with their administration's ability to impose sanctions rather than anything else.

that’s fine. I agree that I don't trust the US to never impose sanctions on India as part of its pressure tactics to make India toe its line on important matters.

One question I have about FMS sale though is, are the prices negotiated or are they list prices submitted by the company?

now I don't really know much about this process, but I thought that the company sold the product to the GoTUS and then it was sold to the other govt. so they must be list prices, unless the GoTUS is willing to negotiate and discount those prices as part of some military package or strategy.

[putnanja]

The US has tough laws on paper, and it prosecuted Boeing as the govt was cheated. One cant say they will take a similar hard line if it was between Boeing and a different country. US may have behaved like the brits on the Saudi issue, given the close strategic ties that they have.

Looked up some info on FMS sales:
FMS: Foreign Military Sales

...
The U.S. government applies a 3 percent "administrative surcharge" to all FMS sales. An additional 3.1 percent "logistics support charge" is applied on certain spare parts, equipment modifications, secondary support equipment and supplies. These surcharges recuperate some of the costs incurred while promoting and managing sales of commercially-manufactured U.S. weapons. FMS surcharges pay a significant amount of the salaries and operating costs of Security Assistance Organizations (SAOs) and other Defense Department personnel who carry out the program.
...
purchasing governments may choose FMS for several reasons.

* Countries desiring closer military-to-military contact with the United States will opt for an FMS sale. Contact between military officers occurs in all stages of the sale, and in many cases while providing follow-on training and support.
* FMS sales are often less expensive, particularly for more advanced items. When purchasing items from manufacturers, the Pentagon frequently combines its own orders with its requests on behalf of foreign governments. This can result in lower prices through economies of scale despite the FMS surcharges.
* FMS sales often carry guarantees of U.S. service and training.
* Countries with limited experience in negotiating complex procurement contracts find FMS convenient, as the Pentagon negotiates with the arms manufacturer and handles the paperwork.
* Because FMS sales are publicly recorded, at least to some extent, countries may opt for this channel to show they have "nothing to hide."
...

I wonder whether the prices will really be low, especially if US itself is not ordering any more of those items, say like C-17s in the current discussion.

[Kartik]

The US has tough laws on paper, and it prosecuted Boeing as the govt was cheated. One cant say they will take a similar hard line if it was between Boeing and a different country. US may have behaved like the brits on the Saudi issue, given the close strategic ties that they have.

point is- where are the high-profile bribery cases for US firms like those that are heard for European, Russian and Israeli deals world over ? a hypothetical situation with a hypothetical answer doesn't really fit this scene where this poster Geeth has basically said that the US is bribing politicians and officials to get its products chosen and that they are getting overawed by the "chaka-chaund" of the imported maal or that they want their kids to go to the US and so they are ready to sell their country. all of that is simply an opinion, not backed up by any hard facts.

purchasing governments may choose FMS for several reasons.
* Countries with limited experience in negotiating complex procurement contracts find FMS convenient, as the Pentagon negotiates with the arms manufacturer and handles the paperwork.
* Because FMS sales are publicly recorded, at least to some extent, countries may opt for this channel to show they have "nothing to hide."
...

these 2 last points clearly show that there is little scope for corruption in FMS deals. the Pentagon is negotiating with the arms manufacturer and the govt. of the customer deals with the Pentagon. No arms dealers or middlemen to negotiate in between and take their cuts, which is where the maximum tamasha happens. and because its audited, with public records made available, unless some very very innovative bribery is happening behind the scenes, it won't be happening at all. at least not as brazen and shameless as what those Tehelka tapes where showing, related to Czech, Israeli, etc. arms deals where some guy openly spoke of then Defence Minister George Fernandes taking money and then disqualifying some bid because another country's arms dealer couldn't match the Slovakian bid . its only in our country where even after catching politicians accepting bribes and talking about those who they collaborate with, they are still in active politics. if anything, it is us who ought to be ashamed of our nation when it has such people leading it, rather than pointing fingers at others saying that they are bribing to get deals.

[Manish_Sharma]

point is- where are the high-profile bribery cases for US firms like those that are heard for European, Russian and Israeli deals world over ? a hypothetical situation with a hypothetical answer doesn't really fit this scene where this poster Geeth has basically said that the US is bribing politicians and officials to get its products chosen and that they are getting overawed by the "chaka-chaund" of the imported maal or that they want their kids to go to the US and so they are ready to sell their country. all of that is simply an opinion, not backed up by any hard facts.

Was'nt there a case few months back where a secret file from MOD regarding MRCA had reached Raytheon and was mistakenly sent back to MOD. It clearly answers you query about "where are high profile bribery cases for US firms".
You see how media has suppressed the news, this is the classic example of how good US is at this game. They not only bribe the ruling party/babus but also media/opposition. Hawk Jet trainers took 25 years to be decided while P8I, C-17 procurement speed is lightening.
Unkil is too good to be caught, if caught they know how to manage the media and suppress the news.

[Singha]

75% kids/relatives of our GOI/political/media elites work/study/settled in US. the rest 25% aspire to join them.

with so much love, GOTUS has its job easy.

[geeth]

>>>Geeth, I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'; well typically you either state facts or back up your opinion with evidence. In this case I am sure you can find evidence of bribes, kickbacks etc etc for every military deal by every country. So in my opinion please think before you spew your partly paranoid, generally misplaced, somewhat outdated and obsolete and definately prejudiced opinions/rants.

Since it is your 'opinion', I discard it, since it is, as you say, like the proverbial a$$hole. I am sure what I said is nothing but plain truth. If you want proof, search for it, you will get it - only thing required is the ability to read in-between the lines. One example I will give you. Microsoft Corporation is very keen to join the UID project in India. You may construe their move as a genuine desire on the part of Bill Gates to help a poor country like India. I read it as an attempt by U.S to get information about our population / country.

If you didn't know, the latest episode is about the interrogation team cooling their heels in New York for a week, without getting a chance to meet the Pakistani born Americanized Terrorist. Yes, I am Paranoid.

>>>Most of us here are not Gurus, and those who are have a valuable opinion; the rest of us are better served sticking to facts, there is less chance of someone not liking the smell of our opinion, after all I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'. Just my opinion...no offence.

After saying that my opinions are like an average a$$hole, and is 'paranoid', 'generally misplaced', 'outdated', 'obsolete', 'definitely prejudiced', 'rant' etc, you also want me not to get offended!

what are you trying to convey? All I say is that, if you feel all the above adjectives are right, pls ignore my 'opinion'. Anyway, I care a damn about what your 'opinion' is, about my 'opinion'.

[geeth]

>>>point is- where are the high-profile bribery cases for US firms like those that are heard for European, Russian and Israeli deals world over ? a hypothetical situation with a hypothetical answer doesn't really fit this scene where this poster Geeth has basically said that the US is bribing politicians and officials to get its products chosen and that they are getting overawed by the "chaka-chaund" of the imported maal or that they want their kids to go to the US and so they are ready to sell their country.

My dear Saaar.........

The Americans have penetrated so deeply that in your lifetime you will not see any bribery case coming in the open. If some other bribery case comes out in the open involving some other company, it is very much probable that the invisible American hand is behind it. If the people who decide are bought by Americans, if the people who are supposed to raise alarm are bought by Americans, if the people who are supposed to expose are bought by Americans, how will you hear anything against them??

>>>all of that is simply an opinion, not backed up by any hard facts.

Let me see...next time you talk without facts and figures in such matters, I hope people have the right to skin you alive!

Be realistic, when you pass your 'opinions'

[geeth]

>>>The US has tough laws on paper, and it prosecuted Boeing as the govt was cheated. One cant say they will take a similar hard line if it was between Boeing and a different country.

What happened to the Union Carbide case?

[geeth]

>>>There is no harm in advertising. If anything, that’s smart sales and India has a lot to learn in that department.

No harm for whom? And if the facts are not put out in the advertisements? It will end up like people in BR making 'decisions' based on glossy advertisements.

>>>BRF is a forum where people are generally asked to back up their claims or bombast. Please back up your claims regarding blackmail of Indian politicians, bribes paid to Indian politicians, etc. if the rot lies within our own political and bureaucratic community, why are you making the US out to be devils ?

You talk as though everybody else except geeth puts out facts and figures about everything they say. How did the MOD file land up in Lockheed Martin office? It took a supersonic flight or what?

Where is the proof that R. Chidambaram is a liar?

>>>I know for a fact that in Boeing, ethics is considered VERY important, with employees having to go through hours of ethics related training. if anything else, FMS sales are the least likely to ridden with corruption, because it’s the GoI dealing directly with the GoTUS and even a whiff of corruption in any such deal and their political careers are over.

Yeah! Now I don't have any proof that Boeing bribes people all over the world to snatch commercial deals from their rivals, particularly Airbus. I also don't have any proof that Boeing used used their national intelligence network (echelon) to snoop on Airbus fax messages/computer printouts to find out their quotes, so that they themselves can submit a lower bid to the customer.

>>>Why are you singling out the US as being capable of bribes ? Do you think the Israelis are a clean bunch ? or the Europeans ?

Why are you frothing when someone criticizes about American Companies? Are you their agent?

[Rahul M]

Why are you frothing when someone criticizes about American Companies? Are you their agent?

plz don't get personal.

[geeth]

>>>this is just a lot of nonsense. the same applies to most of the Indian middle-class. you mean to say all of them are willing to "sell" their country ?!

How many of the Indian Middle Class are involved in the decision making of the Govt? There was a rule that the moment a person in Armed forces get married to a foreigner, he has to resign from service. Some people misused this rule to get out of the service they were frustated with. The case of Sonia Gandhi is famous - she was forced to change her passport to Indian by MEA - or else, the rules didn't permit her stay in Pm's house (this is what I heard - don't ask for proof).

It is a strategy of foreign banks to recruit children of Govt servants in high positions, even if the children are morons. Patriotic decisions on the part of foreign banks? The point is, there is a chance for exploitation and the ruthless Americans will be more than willing to use it.

>>>There is a lot of smoke in deals related to Russians, Israelis and Europeans and I don't even need to quote which ones, since a google search will yield you a lot of info. to say that they are less corrupt is hogwash to be polite.

There is no need to be polite-feel free to be harsh. The point I want to make is that Americans have more leverage and they will use it to armtwist Indian Babus and Politicians.

What happened to the Enron case? Why did Sharad Pawar go out of his way to help Americans and in turn screw the interest of Maharashtra? Wasn't it bribe? Can I provide proof? Can you? Why did GOI allow Enron to take loan from Indian banks when the contract was to bring foreign maal? Didn't it reduce their risk and committments? When Enron defaulted, who lost? Indian banks which lent the loan? why did it all happen? Everything was hunky dory? Why didn't American law punish the Enron officials for bribing Indians, when there was evidence with them? Instead, they blackmailed Pawar! Separate rule for India and America?

>>>>My only issue with the US imports are the export restrictions laid down and the probability that some Senator with sympathy for Pakistan may introduce a legislation that may block spares, support, etc. later on down the line, or that they may punish India for carrying out any further nuke tests (which IMHO are absolutely necessary for India to have a credible deterrant)

There are many issues with buying American products. We have to take extra care before buying things from them. That is what I want to say.

[geeth]

>>>plz don't get personal.

I am not getting personal...it is a rhetorical question. I and everybody knows he is not. Just wanted to point out the enthusiasm.

[geeth]

>>>IMO, the only reason GOI is going for C17 is heavy STOL capability in Arunachal. Our current Il76s are ok for Ladakh. They must know something we don't and are not willing to wait for another option to appear in a year or two (there really aren't any) or worse, decades for a comparable indigenous a/c to materialize, if at all.

>>>As things stand, there is no other way that I'm aware of to get a Prithvi, Agni or Brahmos battery deep into Arunachal Pradesh because there are no roads capable of handling them and there won't be for another 5-10 years at least. AFAIK, nothing has been done about the multi-lane trans-Arunachal highway that so much noise was made about.

Even if all that you say is right, it could only serve the short term goal. By the way, if India signs the deal today, what is the time frame before the first a/c is delivered? If NEFA / AP is in mind, Can we build 4 lane roads with the cost of 10 C-17s within the time frame for delivery of these planes? Will our babus think seriously about it? Anybody's guess....

>>>No doubt there is potential for corruption and American villainy in the C17 deal both now and in the future but those are present even in Russian deals. Besides, it appears we don't have a choice.

The issue is not American corruption - given a choice nobody wants to give any money to our babus / nethas - they grab it from the supplier. In that sense India is more vulnerable when the supplier is as powerful as U.S.A. it may harm our interests as well.

The motto of our babus / nethas as far as corruption is concerned is...."You may cheat the Government as much as possible. But please don't cheat us (by not giving the bribe)". These are not my words, but actually told by a govt employee to my consultant. It took a while before the enormity of that statement sank into my mind.

This country has already gone to dogs - in short, KODA-ised!

[Raveen]

>>>Geeth, I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'; well typically you either state facts or back up your opinion with evidence. In this case I am sure you can find evidence of bribes, kickbacks etc etc for every military deal by every country. So in my opinion please think before you spew your partly paranoid, generally misplaced, somewhat outdated and obsolete and definately prejudiced opinions/rants.

Since it is your 'opinion', I discard it, since it is, as you say, like the proverbial a$$hole. I am sure what I said is nothing but plain truth. If you want proof, search for it, you will get it - only thing required is the ability to read in-between the lines. One example I will give you. Microsoft Corporation is very keen to join the UID project in India. You may construe their move as a genuine desire on the part of Bill Gates to help a poor country like India. I read it as an attempt by U.S to get information about our population / country.

If you didn't know, the latest episode is about the interrogation team cooling their heels in New York for a week, without getting a chance to meet the Pakistani born Americanized Terrorist. Yes, I am Paranoid.

>>>Most of us here are not Gurus, and those who are have a valuable opinion; the rest of us are better served sticking to facts, there is less chance of someone not liking the smell of our opinion, after all I am sure you have heard 'opinions are like...'. Just my opinion...no offence.

After saying that my opinions are like an average a$$hole, and is 'paranoid', 'generally misplaced', 'outdated', 'obsolete', 'definitely prejudiced', 'rant' etc, you also want me not to get offended!

what are you trying to convey? All I say is that, if you feel all the above adjectives are right, pls ignore my 'opinion'. Anyway, I care a damn about what your 'opinion' is, about my 'opinion'.

As is obvious, since my opinion about your opinion didn't prevent you from spewing another paranoid rant about Bill Gates trying to find more information about the Indian people on behalf of the CIA Please get offended if you so desire, I believe your opinions (here comes another adjective) are actually sub-standard and below average (they belong on GupShup.com and not on BR), and that's my opinion, and if you don't like how that smells, sniff elsewhere!

On the other hand I would like point out, you have not given one concrete evidence about Bill Gates' master plan for world domination (or any of your other 'paranoid', 'generally misplaced', 'outdated', 'obsolete', 'definitely prejudiced' statements/rants); oh please do tell, I am sure it will make an interesting read (I have my tin foil hat on already!). Please also try and incorporate Apple PC Vs. Mac commercials as a part of this master plan, I am sure it'll make for very interesting read. Oh, n please post this on Possible Military Scenarios, you know, with the other fiction material.

[Raveen]

This country has already gone to dogs - in short, KODA-ised!

Then why bother brother, right?

[Raveen]

>>>plz don't get personal.

I am not getting personal...it is a rhetorical question. I and everybody knows he is not. Just wanted to point out the enthusiasm.

There is a certain Glenn Beck like quality to that statement. Please Bing (so Bill Gates can get some more information on you for the CIA) Glenn Beck if you don't know about his M O.

[Raveen]

>>>this is just a lot of nonsense. the same applies to most of the Indian middle-class. you mean to say all of them are willing to "sell" their country ?!

How many of the Indian Middle Class are involved in the decision making of the Govt? There was a rule that the moment a person in Armed forces get married to a foreigner, he has to resign from service. Some people misused this rule to get out of the service they were frustated with. The case of Sonia Gandhi is famous - she was forced to change her passport to Indian by MEA - or else, the rules didn't permit her stay in Pm's house (this is what I heard - don't ask for proof).

It is a strategy of foreign banks to recruit children of Govt servants in high positions, even if the children are morons. Patriotic decisions on the part of foreign banks? The point is, there is a chance for exploitation and the ruthless Americans will be more than willing to use it.

>>>There is a lot of smoke in deals related to Russians, Israelis and Europeans and I don't even need to quote which ones, since a google search will yield you a lot of info. to say that they are less corrupt is hogwash to be polite.

There is no need to be polite-feel free to be harsh. The point I want to make is that Americans have more leverage and they will use it to armtwist Indian Babus and Politicians.

What happened to the Enron case? Why did Sharad Pawar go out of his way to help Americans and in turn screw the interest of Maharashtra? Wasn't it bribe? Can I provide proof? Can you? Why did GOI allow Enron to take loan from Indian banks when the contract was to bring foreign maal? Didn't it reduce their risk and committments? When Enron defaulted, who lost? Indian banks which lent the loan? why did it all happen? Everything was hunky dory? Why didn't American law punish the Enron officials for bribing Indians, when there was evidence with them? Instead, they blackmailed Pawar! Separate rule for India and America?

>>>>My only issue with the US imports are the export restrictions laid down and the probability that some Senator with sympathy for Pakistan may introduce a legislation that may block spares, support, etc. later on down the line, or that they may punish India for carrying out any further nuke tests (which IMHO are absolutely necessary for India to have a credible deterrant)

There are many issues with buying American products. We have to take extra care before buying things from them. That is what I want to say.

Please provide proof for every statement here; else it qualifies as a paranoid rant in my stinky opinion!
Oh, n just for clarification: Enron != US Govt/ US
Enron was a corrupt private player (watch the The Smartest Guys in the Room if you need proof of that) not an agency of the US Govt so any bribes by them can be attributed to them only; that was because back then the CIA didn't have the brilliant idea of recruiting them to gather more information on Indians, they have learnt thier lesson and Bill Gates/Steve Ballmer are firmly on the payroll now.

I would love some proof about the Sonia Gandhi thing; I am sure you can pour over the Indian Constitution (the beast that it is) and find me the rule. In any case followng your logic, how did this information get to you? are you bribing the MEA guys? did it drive itself to you in an Ambassador car?

[Rahul M]

As is obvious, since my opinion about your opinion didn't prevent you from spewing another paranoid rant about Bill Gates trying to find more information about the Indian people on behalf of the CIA

raveen, not sure that this is so much laughable stuff. sure MS wants to make profit and all.
but is there a reason why it won't share info with USG ? are you telling me ethics laws will prevent that from happening ? who is naive here ?
MS is known to cooperate with USG agencies, there's no reason why they won't if USG asks them.
also, I wonder if you have heard of the sankhya vahini project, a project to develop a hi BW internet network for India in collaboration with CMU was dropped like a hot potato when it transpired that there were serious security loopholes in the proposal which could be exploited by the other party.
________________________
I find no reason to blindly trust any party. whenever dealing with other nations you have to assume the worst and proceed according to that assumption. people who bear the responsibility of their country have no job being lax or generous in opinion about others.

[putnanja]

With the US, it pays to be paranoid. How can one forget the classified documents from Indian MoD ending up at Lockeed Martin, which they later sent it back to Indian govt by mistake? There were reports of the CIA using missionaries in various countries for intel gathering. Didn't the US govt force the US telecom companies to tap lines of US citizens using the "war on terror" excuse? What is the guarantee that they won't do so for other countries?

There are multiple levers that the US will use, no doubt about that. If someone thinks US is not pressusrizing India to make concessions to pak, they are too naive or foolish. What will prevent them from threat of sanctions for spares of defence supplies in future? If India does go to war against Pakistan, is there a guarantee that US won't withhold spares to bring the conflict to a halt in case it feels its interest in Af-Pak are at stake?

During Kargil, Russia and Israel supplied us from their reserves. One can't expect the US to behave similarly given its history. I just don't trust the Obama administration, given its non-proliferation commitments, their handling of the afghanistan war, their pakistan strategy (or the lack of) etc. Buy american stuff, but make sure that it is not so much as to compromise our efforts in case of war.

Being cautious of a person who has manipulated too many times in the past is not paranoid but pragmatism. I have noticed that some people are very touchy whenever any thing against the US is mentioned. Wonder why though.

[Raveen]

As is obvious, since my opinion about your opinion didn't prevent you from spewing another paranoid rant about Bill Gates trying to find more information about the Indian people on behalf of the CIA

raveen, not sure that this is so much laughable stuff. sure MS wants to make profit and all.
but is there a reason why it won't share info with USG ? are you telling me ethics laws will prevent that from happening ? who is naive here ?

Rahul Sir, I would like to believe that the CIA already has plenty of information; as much information as it needs. I would also like to think that if not India, then some other nation/body (one where the left hand knows what the right is doing, for example the EU) would jump on any attempt by MS to snoop on behalf of any USG agency.
I would also like to believe that USG electronic snooping is advanced anough where it doesn't have to rely on MS and most importantly I don't see one reason for MS to be submissive and give in to the USG for normal mundane snooping. After all, MS as a corp has a responsibility towards it's owners and at the end of the day dedicating resources to non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue would be hard to explain and pretty hard to hide on the financials (sorry, I am an auditor and I won't say where I work but I will say MS is a client).
Thanks,
Raveen

[Rahul M]

I would like to believe that the CIA already has plenty of information; as much information as it needs.

oops ! you can NEVER have too much information. btw its NSA that handles this kind of stuff AFAIK, not CIA. there are limits to what one can achieve by using one method of technical surveillance and it pays to have alternatives in place. the motive is most certainly there.

would jump on any attempt by MS to snoop on behalf of any USG agency.

in this case at least, there's no need for MS to snoop. all they have to do is share information they will already have access to, legally. that is that much less in risk to be found out.

I would also like to believe that USG electronic snooping is advanced anough where it doesn't have to rely on MS

if you go back and read this in the context we were discussing you will find that this statement doesn't make any sense.
and FYI, this argument could have been made much more strongly for the sankhya vahini project (NSA doesn't need CMU to snoop on India) and yet there were persistent noises that this was just what happened.

After all, MS as a corp has a responsibility towards it's owners and at the end of the day dedicating resources to non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue

who said anything about "non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue" ??
we were talking about ligit projects that can have potential to interest the intel community.
sorry, this argument is a strawman, a poor one at that.

I don't see one reason for MS to be submissive and give in to the USG for normal mundane snooping

really ? you mean the USG can't make things very uncomfortable for any MNC not to mention the govt contracts MS gets from govt and govt supported institutions ?
even GOI can force the hand of a co operating from Indian soil to a considerable extent and you are telling me USG can't ?
fine, believe what you will.

p.s. no need for the 'sir' please.

[putnanja]

Rahul Sir, I would like to believe that the CIA already has plenty of information; as much information as it needs. I would also like to think that if not India, then some other nation/body (one where the left hand knows what the right is doing, for example the EU) would jump on any attempt by MS to snoop on behalf of any USG agency.
I would also like to believe that USG electronic snooping is advanced anough where it doesn't have to rely on MS and most importantly I don't see one reason for MS to be submissive and give in to the USG for normal mundane snooping. After all, MS as a corp has a responsibility towards it's owners and at the end of the day dedicating resources to non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue would be hard to explain and pretty hard to hide on the financials (sorry, I am an auditor and I won't say where I work but I will say MS is a client).
Thanks,
Raveen

Couple of links which contradict that statement:

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
...
The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.
...
...
In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers.
...
...

The USG routinely collects information from major companies like yahoo, google, microsoft etc. The companies don't have to put the expenses against different head. I too work in a major listed company, and all that appears against my actual work is a line item of my entire division, and the expenses and revenue made. No company gives a line by line account of what each and every person does. A All the companies need to do is to give them the data. The companies take massive backups every day. The person who is responsible for that needs to sensitize the info ( rip out uniquely identifying info for US citizens, like stripping out name, address etc) and hand it off to the government. Heck, that data is already available internally within the company too, as we use that to track usage, patterns etc ( all identifiable info stripped out to protect privacy). How do you think companies like microsoft keep products confidential for years till they are released if they can't hide it from shareholders?

Even in the recent case of Major Nadal, the intelligence agencies knew whom he was chatting with, the contents, where he was connected from etc. To say that the government doesn't access data from the companies is pretty naive. You may be the auditor for Deloitte & Touche or any other microsoft auditors, but you need to speak to the people in the industry to understand how things work

[Raveen]

Rahul Sir, I would like to believe that the CIA already has plenty of information; as much information as it needs. I would also like to think that if not India, then some other nation/body (one where the left hand knows what the right is doing, for example the EU) would jump on any attempt by MS to snoop on behalf of any USG agency.
I would also like to believe that USG electronic snooping is advanced anough where it doesn't have to rely on MS and most importantly I don't see one reason for MS to be submissive and give in to the USG for normal mundane snooping. After all, MS as a corp has a responsibility towards it's owners and at the end of the day dedicating resources to non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue would be hard to explain and pretty hard to hide on the financials (sorry, I am an auditor and I won't say where I work but I will say MS is a client).
Thanks,
Raveen

Couple of links which contradict that statement:

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
...
The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.
...
...
In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers.
...
...

The USG routinely collects information from major companies like yahoo, google, microsoft etc. The companies don't have to put the expenses against different head. I too work in a major listed company, and all that appears against my actual work is a line item of my entire division, and the expenses and revenue made. No company gives a line by line account of what each and every person does. A All the companies need to do is to give them the data. The companies take massive backups every day. The person who is responsible for that needs to sensitize the info ( rip out uniquely identifying info for US citizens, like stripping out name, address etc) and hand it off to the government. Heck, that data is already available internally within the company too, as we use that to track usage, patterns etc ( all identifiable info stripped out to protect privacy). How do you think companies like microsoft keep products confidential for years till they are released if they can't hide it from shareholders?

Even in the recent case of Major Nadal, the intelligence agencies knew whom he was chatting with, the contents, where he was connected from etc. To say that the government doesn't access data from the companies is pretty naive. You may be the auditor for Deloitte & Touche or any other microsoft auditors, but you need to speak to the people in the industry to understand how things work

I would like to believe that the CIA already has plenty of information; as much information as it needs.

oops ! you can NEVER have too much information. btw its NSA that handles this kind of stuff AFAIK, not CIA. there are limits to what one can achieve by using one method of technical surveillance and it pays to have alternatives in place. the motive is most certainly there.

would jump on any attempt by MS to snoop on behalf of any USG agency.

in this case at least, there's no need for MS to snoop. all they have to do is share information they will already have access to, legally. that is that much less in risk to be found out.

I would also like to believe that USG electronic snooping is advanced anough where it doesn't have to rely on MS

if you go back and read this in the context we were discussing you will find that this statement doesn't make any sense.
and FYI, this argument could have been made much more strongly for the sankhya vahini project (NSA doesn't need CMU to snoop on India) and yet there were persistent noises that this was just what happened.

After all, MS as a corp has a responsibility towards it's owners and at the end of the day dedicating resources to non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue

who said anything about "non-essential, non-R&D USG programs that generate no revenue" ??
we were talking about ligit projects that can have potential to interest the intel community.
sorry, this argument is a strawman, a poor one at that.

I don't see one reason for MS to be submissive and give in to the USG for normal mundane snooping

really ? you mean the USG can't make things very uncomfortable for any MNC not to mention the govt contracts MS gets from govt and govt supported institutions ?
even GOI can force the hand of a co operating from Indian soil to a considerable extent and you are telling me USG can't ?
fine, believe what you will.

p.s. no need for the 'sir' please.

I have arguments to support my views/statements but then again looking at how firmly we believe in what we believe in I would say I agree to disagree and I hope we can all agree to disagree. Although, I have new found appreciation for your P.O.V. (doesn't mean I am a convert or that I'll put on my tin foil hat).
Thank you, been a pleasure debating with both of you!

P.S. Gotcha, no more 'Sir', although how else do I show my appreciation and respect to senior members who have contributed so much more than I ever will?

[Rahul M]

tin foil hat ?
wish I could share your appreciation of how green the world is.
regards.

[Raveen]

tin foil hat ?
wish I could share your appreciation of how green the world is.
regards.

comes mixed in a little bit of trust in the system and whole lot of percieved naiveté...lol

[Jamal K. Malik]

Only armed forces act against corruption: Admiral Verma

[shyamd]

Corruption will reduce to a certain extent, OECD made a report about corruption in Arms deals with Israel. Israel was severely rapped and they did mention the deals in India, it also mentioned that the media was censored in Israel regarding corruption in arms deals. Russia and Israel have apparently agreed to sign up to the OECD agreement on corruption in defence deals.

[chackojoseph]

Everybody leans towards money, even army men. Hence, on Arjun Tank project, everyone is apprehensive about every possibility. Hence the project is in news.

[chackojoseph]

500 kgs - half a ton(!) sir. Absolutely no vehicle of any reasonable kind could survive that amount of explosive. And yet, out of a crew of four, we have 2 survivors, of which one was not wounded seriously enough to warrant a mention!

That is some measure of the levels of protection that the M1(possibly A2/TUSK) offers its crew members. There is no way in hell that the T-90 could achieve those levels, especially against IEDs, which an active defense/anti-kinetic projectile defense system such as SHTORA or ARENA (which the T-90's overall protection efficacy depends in a large part on) would be completely useless against. The same goes for upper hull/turret-mounted ERAs such as Kaktus/Kontact, unless the IED is a shaped charge that is mounted at a minimum of 3 feet off the ground.

I once went to a bullet proof r&d and mfg outfit. IA procures bullet proof vests that has only a certain stopping range for their soldiers. It is because they are cheap. They spend so much for expensive equipment like T-90S (if you add up what Arjun Tank has already got). While, the cheaper Arjuns with better protection, fire power etc are not favored. A lot of stories on the high altitude clothes, blood clots accessories etc.

Source

More than 1,000 soldiers have died in counter-insurgency operations alone in J&K in the last three years. The parliamentary standing committee on defence had recently expressed its "deep concern and alarm" that only 1.24 lakh bullet-proof jackets are available with the troops when 3.53 lakh jackets were required.

"It is disturbing to note that such a huge shortage still remains notwithstanding the fact that the procurement action was initiated as far back as 1988-89," said the committee.

Army only cares for the high value imports, why?

And all that talk about keeping soldiers alive......

[ASPuar]

I once went to a bullet proof r&d and mfg outfit. IA procures bullet proof vests that has only a certain stopping range for their soldiers. It is because they are cheap. They spend so much for expensive equipment like T-90S (if you add up what Arjun Tank has already got). While, the cheaper Arjuns with better protection, fire power etc are not favored.

Army procures? When will this disinformation campaign end? The Ministry of Defence does all procurement on behalf of the armed forces. Yes, the "user" (read armed forces), initiate a request for procurement of items like stores, BPJ's, blood clot patch kits. But who buys them really? All purchasing (even "delegated" purchasing) is done under the very watchful eye of the CGDA.

Do you know how many "justifications" need to be tendered by the initiator in order to even get his proposal heard one level ahead of the CFA? Do you know how afraid most army officers are to ask for too much, in case a career ending file noting is made by any of an army of section officers, additional financial advisors, asssitant controllers general of accounts (equivalent to captains, but what a grand sounding title!), Command Financial Advisors, etc etc?

All this business of "army procuring" this or that or the other, is pure twaddle. First, figure out in who's hand the power really is.

Anyway, a short reading of this (long) document, should provide some idea of the hurdles ANY procurement must pass (not to mention the "Buy Indian Make Indian" policy in force), which makes any sort of corruption at the "user" end, likely to only be of a very small scale, a few thousands to a couple of lakhs at most.

http://mod.nic.in/dpm/welcome.html

As an aside, in an interesting lesson in cause and effect, a fear of crossing these hurdles, is also the reason why nowadays, New Delhi hardly sees the familiar black army ambassador staff car anymore. Nowadays, even those demi gods, Lieutenant Generals have to satisfy themselves with travelling in Indigo Taxis, with "Gujjar Boy" emblazoned on the rear window, and a flag drooping sadly from a makeshift pole on front. Nobody even wants to be called out for asking for replacement of a staff car for the approximately 20 Lt generals in Delhi!

[ASPuar]

I once went to a bullet proof r&d and mfg outfit. IA procures bullet proof vests that has only a certain stopping range for their soldiers. It is because they are cheap. They spend so much for expensive equipment like T-90S (if you add up what Arjun Tank has already got). While, the cheaper Arjuns with better protection, fire power etc are not favored. A lot of stories on the high altitude clothes, blood clots accessories etc.

Source

More than 1,000 soldiers have died in counter-insurgency operations alone in J&K in the last three years. The parliamentary standing committee on defence had recently expressed its "deep concern and alarm" that only 1.24 lakh bullet-proof jackets are available with the troops when 3.53 lakh jackets were required.

"It is disturbing to note that such a huge shortage still remains notwithstanding the fact that the procurement action was initiated as far back as 1988-89," said the committee.

Army only cares for the high value imports, why?

And all that talk about keeping soldiers alive......

The report which you have posted is from 2003. Seven years ago. Do you have any information saying that the situation has not been rectified? And as for buying BPJs which only "offer protection from a certain range', Ive got news for you: NO BPJ offers protection from ALL ranges. WEIGHT considerations also have their role to play on an infantryman. Cost considerations do exist, because there is always someone willing to ask WHY DID YOU BUY THIS? But no. We're expected to believe your version because "Someone" at an ordnance factory said so! Laughable.

If you are a journalist who has done even a little investigating, you will know perfectly well that whenever the army wants something to better the lot of its troops, there is an army of finance bureaucrats ready to scuttle it.

Do you remember George Fernandes sending off the MOD "Financial Advisors" to Siachen? Even traveling by helicopter, and staying at the best facilities that the poor troops could offer, and never heading for the frontlines, these pigs squealed bloody murder, and said that they would "die" if sent to those altitudes, and how unfair it was. What about the troops, for whom they were busy denying facilities with holier than thou pen strokes?

How much would you like to wager that demand for Anti-clot kits, better BPJ's, better troop comfort, etc etc, have ALL been scuttled by the MOD itself? Army can propose. MoD is always there to dispose, of all the ridiculous "luxuries" that the army want to provide the soldiers with!

And for all those who want to yell "derailment", let me say this clearly: You cant have your cake and eat it too. If you want to claim that its all the army's fault, let us first investigate who is in charge. If you want to make (off topic and slanderous) claims like "Army always buys rubbish BPJ's because it cares only about big ticket items", then be prepared to hear those (false) claims refuted.

[chackojoseph]

^^^ I have reported things as I know them. Thank you for telling me that Army never purchases anything. Army Supply Corps are relevant outfits are doing nothing. Also, please google for Indian Army golf cart purchases, egg purchases, wheat purchases etc.

You still have many relevant points to make. I agree to them.

[Surya]

deleted

[Kersi D]

a highly technical question regarding israelis and drdo.

if israel can hire the trio of indian arms merchants that can pull off billions of dollars worth of deals with indian military, and if israel can hire an ex-IAF officer about whom even the DRDO chief "complains" in news conferences (according to josy joseph), why can't DRDO itself hire the same three arms merchants and the same ex-IAF "officer" and sell DRDO hardware to the same customer?

Will DRDO pay $$$$$$ X,000,000 to the Holy Trio ?

K

[Kersi D]

During Kargil, Russia and Israel supplied us from their reserves. One can't expect the US to behave similarly given its history.

They will IF IT SUITS THEIR INTEREST AND SERVES THEIR PURPOSE

K