INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1917
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 27 Jul 2009 08:39

negi wrote:This is INS Arihant and not a technology demonstrator , this is a formally commissioned sub which will be deployed as soon as it will clear sea going trials and loaded with maal.

[Jinguistics] Both sides are correct. It will demonstrate the technology for kicking dushman ass some day. [/Jinguistics]

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 27 Jul 2009 08:43

Top secret 11 yrs in making, submarine faces crucial tests ahead

...
The submarine has been moved a short distance away from the dry dock to a covered test area called “Site Bravo”. While most systems, including the power plant, missile launchers and torpedo tubes, have already been fitted on board, a few others will now be put on the submarine. This helps save time as the dry dock will now be available for the construction of the second and third nuclear submarines of the same class. Sources said the hulls of the second and third submarines have already been completed and the two warships will be assembled at Vizag over the next few years.
...
...
Over the next few months, engineers working on the submarine will test all its systems, including the engine, communications and sensors on secondary power — or power from a land-based source.

After all the systems have been validated, the most crucial part of the induction process will commence — the firing of the nuclear reactor. The miniaturised reactor, which will generate 80 MW of power, has been developed by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) with the help of a Russian design team.

The actual starting of the reactor to power the submarine will be something that would keep a lot of fingers crossed at the SBC. As soon as the reactor is fired up, all systems will be tested on primary power, or actual in-borne power of the submarine.
...
...
Once the reactor is stable, the submarine will be taken out in the Vizag harbour for a round of trials. The first of these will involve gentle cruises around the harbour for a few days to validate the controls and stability of the platform.

Subsequently, the Arihant will be moved out to sea for a series of high-speed runs, submerged tests and underwater trials. Incidentally, the crew of the submarine will not be changed over the next two years as it is made ready for induction.
...
...
Meanwhile, sources said they have also got the nod for the construction of a second class of nuclear attack submarine that will basically be predator vessels designed to target other nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 27 Jul 2009 08:45

India in n-sub club, Arihant to be inducted in next two years

...

For the first time, the dimensions of the submarine have been made public. The project director, Vice Admiral (retd) D S P Verma, said that the Arihant is a 6,000-tonne submarine with a length of 110 metres and a breadth of 11 metres. Experts say the vessel will be able to carry 12 K 15 submarine launched ballistic missiles that have a range of over 700 km.
...
...
Significantly, all three dignitaries who spoke at the function — the PM, Defence Minister and Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta — made special mention of the Russian “cooperation” received in the project.

While it is an open secret that Russia helped in the design of the submarine and miniaturisation of the reactor, this is the first time that its help has been openly acknowledged. The entire Russian design team and the Russian Ambassador to India, V I Trubnikov, were present at the function.

Interestingly, the size of the Arihant is similar to the first nuclear submarine in the world that was launched four decades ago by the US. Besides the US, which has 74 nuclear submarines, Russia (44), UK (13), France (10) and China (10) also possess nuclear-powered submarines. The last nation to enter the nuclear submarine club was China when it launched its Han class submarines in the early 1980s.
...

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 08:55

I take a humble bow.

Jagan wrote:
csharma wrote:Reuters is now using Bharat -Rakshak to come up with Missile ranges. For Agni IIISL. I do notknow where they 250 -350 km for Sagarika.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009 ... 474361.htm

look at the Reuters graphic. Left hand corner for sources.


Arun - please take a bow.. :)
Image

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1394
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby munna » 27 Jul 2009 08:58

You deserve all the praise Arun Saar!!

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 09:01

That is the right message by the Prime Minister. India is not an imperial aggressive power, its defense forces are for defense of India.


India has no aggressive designs, says Manmohan
K.V. Prasad

First indigenous nuclear-powered submarine launched for trials

— Photos: Special Arrangement, PTI

In elite club: Gursharan Kaur, wife of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, breaks a coconut on the hull of INS Arihant to mark its launch. As per naval convention, warships are launched by ladies.

VISAKHAPATNAM: At the stroke of noon on Sunday, India demonstrated its capability to indigenously build and operate a nuclear-powered submarine with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh launching INS Arihant for sea trials here.

Tugged gently from its dry-dock base, the 110-metre-long, 11-metre wide vessel can displace 6,000 tonnes of water. Its journey towards the sea is the first step before eventual induction into the Navy that Dr. Singh said marked “years of hard work, dedication and perseverance.”

Aware that India’s entry into the exclusive club will create ripples in the region, the Prime Minister said it was incumbent upon the country to take all necessary steps to keep pace with global advances.

“We do not have any aggressive designs nor do we seek to threaten anyone. We seek an external environment in our region and beyond that, conducive to our peaceful development and the protection of our value systems. Nevertheless, it is incumbent upon us to take all measures necessary to safeguard our country and keep pace with technological advancements worldwide. It has rightly been said that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty,” Dr. Singh said in his address.

India, he said, now joined a select group of five countries, which possess the capability to build a nuclear-powered submarine. That the construction of a submarine was a highly demanding task in itself was known, but for a country to develop its first nuclear submarine was a “special achievement.”

The formal launch for sea trials of the platform called a cryptic ‘S2’ lifted the secrecy around the Advanced Technology Vessel Project cleared for implementation by Indira Gandhi in 1984 and whose first step in steel cutting commenced in 1998. To date the project is estimated to have cost Rs. 30,000 crore.
Russian contribution

Both the Prime Minister and Defence Minister A.K. Antony made special mention of the contribution of the Russians in helping India achieve a “historical milestone” in this complex project being implemented under the public-partnership model.
“A giant step”

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta said the nuclear submarine fitted snugly in the nuclear triad envisaged under the country’s doctrine of having a second strike capability. Describing the event as “a giant step,” Admiral Mehta said the Navy wanted to influence a wide area in the Indian Ocean and the nuclear submarine was the apex of that capability.

Director-General of the ATV Project Vice Admiral (retd.) D.S.P. Verma said the submarine would be equipped with anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and sensors.

In an informal interaction with correspondents , Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar said India should not be denied the Enrichment and Reprocessing (ENR) rights by the G8 countries.

Dr. Kakodkar said that while the country had the indigenous capability in all aspects of ENR, it should also be given the same rights as other countries.

He said India conducted itself with responsibility and “should have the same benefit of countries with such technology. It [India] should not be targeted.”

akku
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 08:59

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby akku » 27 Jul 2009 09:29

Even dd news has a russian submarine ( even has russian written on it ,with the russian flag) , that too under the top story.It seems MMS actually is launching a russian submarine :lol.. INS ARIHANT story is just to fool the pokris to think we launched one..
http://www.ddinews.gov.in/Homepage/Home ... rihant.htm

Jokes apart.. plz a photograph. I have been googling like mad all weekend.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23315
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Jul 2009 09:35

Thats a German U-212 conventional SSK

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 09:37

akku wrote:Jokes apart.. plz a photograph. I have been googling like mad all weekend.

Saar: Don't have false hope. Unless you love Image

IMVHO GoI is doing the right thing by not releasing any picture/drawing.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 09:38

Image

That is a U-212 submarine that the germans built for the Italian Navy.

But I envy the smooth surface the germans gave this sub. This must surely cut down the noise dramatically. Also their ISUS combat system is one of the best.

vasu_ray
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 01:06

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 27 Jul 2009 09:44

so the second line of attack subs are the 6 scorpenes being acquired with their propulsion systems replaced with our nuclear reactors or are totally a new line?

assuming that all the chinese and russian subs (atleast nuke ones) are tagged by the americans, how are our attack subs gonna fit in this game?

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 956
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby K Mehta » 27 Jul 2009 09:48

A Proud moment for India. I was pleasantly surprised at the non-psyopsness of the news from foreign media.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 09:53

Once the initial shock wears off, the psyops will come.
Just like after the Pokharan II. After the initial shock of 3 tests going off together wore off, the foreign media started a campaign of questioning the yield, questioning if the H-bomb went off etc etc.

Watch these same news media outlets cry about poverty in india, and how india should be spending money to eradicate poverty instead of building nuclear subs. Specially watch the Australian, the chinese and the pakistani news media. The Nepalese don't have a navy, otherwise they along with their chinese masters these days would also have protested.

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby enqyoob » 27 Jul 2009 10:04

Relax, have a zam-zam cola. This came in the e-pata today:

Dear Friends:

What's wrong with Senator Cornyn (who happens to be co-Chair of the Senate India Caucus) -- too much whiskey (or tequila)?

xxxxxxx
Senator John Cornyn on the rising threat of India

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 10:20

For people wanting to know more about K-15 missile carried on Arihant: I refer to this article that was printed in Indian Defense Review in Jan-09.

Indian Defense Review: Jan-Mar 2009, Vol. 24 (1)
ISBN 81 7062 165 8
ISSN 0970-2512

Page: 51
Shourya/Sagarika Missile
© Arun Vishwakarma
Introduction
Shourya and Sagarika is a new common missile that can be launched from multiple platforms viz. ground, submarine and mobile launcher. Naval version is called Sagarika while the land based version is called Shourya. Indian doctrine of Minimum Credible Nuclear Deterrence envisages "No First Use" (NFU) policy and a triad of nuclear counterstrike capability. The land based Agni-2 missile range is limited to about 3,300 Km, and the longer range Agni-3 will enter service soon. The sea leg of the triad based on blue water naval assets dispersed across the world's oceans is most survivable thus a critical part of the triad. The ability to reach all corners of a potential challenger requires a range of 5,000 to 8,000 km. DRDO is developing sub surface launched long range Agni-3SL with heavy MIRV payload and ABM countermeasures. Indian nuclear powered ATV due for sea trial in 2009 will reportedly carry 12 launch tubes of 2.4m diameter. Launch tubes can be flexibly configured to either carry a 2 meter diameter Agni-3SL or three wooden rounds of 0.74m diameter K15-Sagarika missile. Shourya and Sagarika fills the short to medium range gap that is below Agni-III’s minimum range. At operational level these missiles provide for range of warheads necessary for graduated nuclear escalation as enunciated by Indian staff and military warfare collages .


ImageClicky...
Figure 1: Shourya and its relative size

This multifunction missile made in large quantities would fulfill India's immediate requirements. The missile optimally matches latest types of strategic weapons tested at Pokhran-II in 1998. The missile will most likely take over the strategic weapons role of Prithvi and Agni-1 missiles, and make them unambiguously dedicated for conventional roles thus stabilizing nuclear deterrence. Shourya and its counterpart Sagarika has been tested 6 times till date. The missile is expected to enter service in 2010. Sagarika will be deployed on submarines and very likely on ‘Sukanya’ class naval vessels too.

Image Clicky...
Figure 2: Wooden round. Dense smoke from launch gas generator reduces Shourya’s launch signature [Photo courtesy: DRDO via Shiv Aroor]

Description
Shourya is a compact, slender, two-stage, solid fuel missile designed as a wooden round. The missile development was initiated as project K15 and was first flight tested on 27 October 2004 in the guise of solid fueled Prithvi-III . It is stored, deployed and launched in a fiberglass composite canister, which is easy to handle, mobile and can be flexibly deployed on different types of surface and sub-surface platforms. Shourya and Sagarika share a common design. The missile is sealed and can be launched from a moving submarine at 50 meter depth. The 6.2 tonne Shourya is 10 meters long, and has two solid fuel stages of 0.74 meters diameter. The first stage booster is about two meters long and the second about six meters long. The missile supports a range of unitary warhead configurations, weighing 180 to 1,000 kg. High missile accuracy and ability to fly in a highly depressed trajectory well within atmosphere indicates it is a weapon of choice to interdict Command & Control (C&C) and preemptive tactics.

The sixth test flight on November 12th, 2008 was a depressed trajectory flight (at Mach 6 and 50km altitude) with continuous rolling to dissipate heat over a larger surface demonstrated mastery of difficult aspects of rocketry involving sustained hypersonic flight.

The wooden round design sealed in a fiber glass canister with the aero fins folded inside in a clean & controlled environment makes it maintenance free and tamper proof. The missile is launched by a hot gas generator developing 15-200 bar pressure using high burn rate HTBP based composite propellant. The thick dark gas cloud greatly reduces the thermal signature of the missile.

ImageClicky...
Figure 3: Shourya on Mobile launcher. [Photo: DRDO]

Figure 4: Inside view of the ATV missile launch tube that hosts 3 Sagarika missile canisters. [Photo: DRDO]

Once out of the launch tube the first stage booster motor ignites taking the missile to 5Km altitude when the main second stage motor takes over. The booster debris reaches a maximum altitude of 6 km, well below the horizon of radars beyond 330 km. The clean and small diameter missile presents a tiny RCS (radar cross-section). The second stage air fins provide necessary in-flight trajectory control. The main motor is typically expended at 33 km altitude well within the atmosphere; however the air fins remain effective beyond post boost phase. The air fins also allow the missile to fly in a depressed trajectory as well as cruise and glide in sustained hypersonic regime at 50 km altitude. The payload separation can be done much later after exploiting aerodynamics for trajectory modification during ascent or descent. The missile is resistant to ABM defense .

Re-entry Vehicle
Shourya Re-entry Vehicle (RV) supports wide range of weapons, with total payload mass ranging from 180 to 1,000 Kg. The missile range is a function of payload mass (see graph in Figure 7 below).
The November 2008 test unveiled the new generation RV that is designed and optimized for newer boosted fission and thermonuclear weapon (including those awaiting confirmatory test). The sharp nose high ‘βeta’ (Ballistic coefficient ) RV design employs 16 cm diameter blunt nose and half angle of 12° that is mounted on a payload adapter to interface with the 0.74m diameter mission control module atop the upper stage. The high ‘βeta’ RV in combination with an all carbon composite body enables higher re-entry speed even with a light weight payload .

ImageClicky...
Figure 5: Re-entry vehicle options.

• Mk-4: For light weight 17Kt Fusion Boosted Fission (FBF) warhead . Mass : ~180 Kg .
• Mk-5: For 50Kt FBF or 200Kt Thermo Nuclear (TN) warhead . Mass: ~340 Kg
• Mk-6: For 150Kt FBF warhead . Mass: ~550 Kg.
Table 1: Comparative destruction area

Code: Select all

Warhead Yield   Destruction w.r.t 17Kt
     50 Kt            2.0
    150 Kt            4.2
    200 Kt            4.9

The all carbon composite re-entry heat shield with multi-directional ablative carbon-carbon re-entry nose tip make it very light and tough . This very light RV mass enables scalable payload and range tradeoff especially for lightweight warhead.

Propulsion
The Shourya has two solid fueled stages of 0.74m diameter. This diameter is compatible with a recently tested Indian sub-surface launch system that has a 2.4 meter diameter launch tube .

First Stage: The first stage solid fuel booster is approximately 2 meter long and weighs about 1,300 kg including 1,000 Kg high density fuel. The booster lifts the missile to an altitude of 5 km so that the second stage can operate more efficiently at low atmospheric pressure. It uses hot gas reaction control for initial control of yaw, pitch and roll before the air fins unfold and missile gains sufficient velocity for aerodynamic control surfaces.

Figure 6: Second stage motor [Photo: DRDO]

Second Stage:
This 6 meter long stage weighs about 3.6 tonne and generates 16 tonne thrust. Case-bonded HTPB-based composite propellant with low burn rate is ignited by a small pyrogen ignition motor. The case is made of 250 grade maraging steel to maximize fuel mass fraction that is critical for scalable payload versus range flexibility. Its nozzle is made of composite material with metallic backup and carbon phenolic liners. The interstage coupling uses a soft-stage separation mechanism and retro rockets for reliable and safe stage separation.

Code: Select all

 
                            Stage-1       Stage-2              RV
Gross Mass                 1,300 kg       3,600 kg       70 kg
Fuel Mass                   1,010 kg       2,950 kg       -
Empty Mass                  290 kg       650kg           -
Stage Fuel-Mass-Ratio      0.78        0.82

Thrust @ Vacuum        26,000 Kgf         21,000 Kgf
Thrust @ Sea Level    23,000 Kgf          -
(Burn Time)           (10 seconds)   (~40 seconds)   Not Applicable

Specific-Impulse
ISP @ Vacuum            265 seconds         275 seconds   Not Applicable
ISP @ Sea Level         230 seconds       250 seconds
   
Length                  2.0 meters      6.0 meters            1.1 meters
Diameter                0.74 meters    0.74 meters          0.74 meters

Propellant                  Solid                 Solid
Chemical                  HTPB/AP/Al         HTPB/AP/Al
Case Material          Maraging            Maraging             Carbon Composite

Note: Some parameters are estimated based on available news reports, trade practice and known Indian capability.
.
Navigation & Accuracy
Shourya largely carries the proven avionics set of Agni-III however for more extensive aerodynamic maneuvering, it is augmented by new sensors and flight control system. Shourya will also benefit form Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) expected to be ready by 2012, to ensure guaranteed national access to precision navigation. These systems enable high accuracy required for precision strike.

Range versus Payload
Missile range & payload mass are inversely related. It is interesting to note that press reports Shourya’s range for 1,000 kg and 500 kg payload. The former corresponding to 1980 vintage 200Kt FBF warhead and the latter corresponding to 150Kt FBF that is yet to be field validated. The official reporting obfuscates missile’s much higher range corresponding to field tested 17Kt FBF warhead that is mainstay of Indian deterrence.

ImageClicky...
Figure 7: Range versus RV payload

Conclusion
Shourya class of missile is truly a multi-services missile that has desirable attributes of small size, mobility, stealth, rich set of warhead options, robustness and cost that could make it the most mass produced Indian missile. It complements the long range Agni class missiles to provide Indian military commanders global range necessary to secure Indian interests.

Sources & References
1. Nuclear Weapons & Indian Security, A Realist Foundation of Strategy- Bharat Karnad, Mcmillan India, ISBN 0333 938224
2. Indian Long Range Strategic Missiles - Indian Defense Review Oct-Dec 2006 Vol 21(4), by Arun Vishwakarma.
3. Raj Chengappa, Weapons of Peace: The Secret Story of India's Quest to be a Nuclear Power (New Delhi: Harper Collins Publishers India, 2000, ISBN 81-7223-332-0).
4. Defence Research & Development Organization (http://www.drdo.com)
5. DRDO periodicals "Technology Focus" bi-weekly.
6. DRDO "Technology Focus" Oct-2001, ISSN: 0971-4413. http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/oct20 ... ulsion.htm
7. Indian Defence Technology: Missile Systems (DRDO, Ministry of Defence, December 1998).
8. Evaluating India's land-based Missile Deterrent. Indian Defense Review Vol-19(4) Oct-Dec 2004, ISSN 0970-2512, Dr Sanjay Badri Maharaj, Arun Vishwakarma. Lancer Publishers & Distributors.
9. Indian’s Emerging Nuclear Posture, Ashley J Tellis, Oxford ISBN 0195659058.
10. Nuclear Threat Initiative (http://www.nti.org)
11. http://www.nbr.org/publications/analysi ... l13no3.pdf
VOLUME 13, NUMBER 3, JUNE 2002. “Ballistic Missiles and Missile Defense in Asia”
12. Nuclear Weapon Archive, 'India's Nuclear Weapons Program: Present Capabilities' http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaArsenal.html

End Notes
1 Shourya is a Sanskrit word for Valor, and Sagarika is a Sanskrit word for “Oceanic”.
2 ‘The secret undersea weapon’, India Today, 01/17/ 2008, http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... mitstart=1
3 A “wooden round” missile is delivered to ships and submarines as an all-up-round (AUR), which includes the missile that flies the mission, the booster that starts its flight, and the container (canister for ships and capsule for submarines) that protects it during transportation, storage and stowage, and acts as a launch tube. Such ammunition has almost 100% reliability, very long shelf life, and requires no special storage, maintenance, or handling.
4 War clouds, nuclear overhang, The Pioneer, December 27, 2008. Op-Ed by Brig.(rtd)Gurmeet Kanwal, Centre for Land Warfare Studies, “The nuclear tipping point in a conventional conflict is a matter of fine military judgment. A rational Pakistani approach would be to opt for a graduated response in case push comes to shove. Lt Gen Sardar F S Lodhi (Retd) has written about a demonstration warning shot followed by a low-yield nuclear explosion over Indian forces advancing inside Pakistani territory. If that fails to stop Indian offensive operations, Pakistan may choose to target a small border town in India. In the end India's conventional superiority would prevail and a future conflict in the plains may be expected to end on terms favorable to India”.
5 ‘Sagarika’ missile test-fired successfully’, The Hindu 27/02/2008 http://www.thehindu.com/2008/02/27/stor ... 120100.htm
6 Prithvi-III test-fired for first time: T.S. Subramanian, The Hindu, 28 October 2004, (http://www.hindu.com/2004/10/28/stories ... 641300.htm).
7 The author was the first to suggest Prithvi-III configuration as a 2 stage missile with 0.75meter diameter and 1000 km range, in the missile article hosted at http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Prithvi.html
8 “Shourya missile cannot be easily detected” The Hindu, 14/11/2008 http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/14/stories ... 151500.htm
3 The ballistic coefficient  (‘Beta’) is a measurement of an object's ability to move through a fluid. It takes into account the effects of an object's density and its skin friction, and is expressed as: eta = m * CD / A where m: mass, CD: coefficient of drag, A: area.
4 This was an issue with the earlier RV Mk-2 design. The older Mk-2 with its blunt nose is an all range RV, however for lighter payload its Beta is relatively low, thus slowing down the RV at the tail end of its trajectory.
11 The FBF primary stage of the 1998 Shakti-1 test.
12 Total mass including mass of RV.
13 DRDO scientists appreciated for successful launch of Agni-3, Indian Express, Friday April 13 2007 "Union Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju has said “the strategic payload of the missile is between 100
kg to 250 kg, and it is a two-stage solid fuel combustion system type missile."http://www.newindpress.com/news.asp?ID=IEA20070413023541
14 The 1998 Shakti series of nuclear test in 1998 at Pokhran unambiguously demonstrated Indian mastery of Fusion Boosted Fission weapons. The Thermonuclear experiment (Shakti-I) based credible warhead requires confirmatory/proof test or credible Laser Ignition Facilities. While awaiting proof test Indian posture will likely field the TN warhead in compliment with missiles with FBF warheads.
15 Ibid
16 Ibid
17 Launching platforms for Project K-15.
http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/aug04/missile13.htm
18 Trade estimate
19 Ibid
20 Estimated by using Ballistic Rocket Simulator (ROCKSIM)
21 Trade estimate
22 Geometric resolution from photo evidence
23 Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System approved, 9/5/2006 http://www.india-defence.com/reports/1894


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23315
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Jul 2009 10:32

Arun_S wrote: The case is made of 250 grade maraging steel to maximize fuel mass fraction that is critical for scalable payload versus range flexibility.


Arun I was thinking what if they use an all composite casing instead of maraging steel , can we expect a significant range increase for a 17kt boosted fission payload ?

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Jul 2009 10:35

csharma wrote:Description of the Arihant by Telegraph journalist.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090727/j ... 286811.jsp

India’s nuclear sub: There she lies like a supine beast, hidden from satellite eyes

The hump, one officer says, will open a hatch to fire missiles vertically. There may be four tubes underneath, each capable of holding three nuclear-tipped SLBMs — submarine-launched ballistic missiles.


But the length is within grasp. From the tip of its tail to its snub-nosed bow, the Arihant is 112 metres, longer by far than any of the submarines in the Indian Naval fleet. At its widest, it is 11 metres in diameter.
The size of the SSBN — the ship submersible ballistic nuclear missile — that the Arihant is, registers first-up.

Russia’s ambassador to India and Russian technologists associated with India’s nuclear submarine programme are present here. Their contribution is richly acknowledged.

“We never had a nuclear submarine, and we needed design consultancy from them,” Vice Admiral Kannan says. The Arihant has about 40 per cent indigenous content. The next two submarines of the same class that are planned are likely to have more.


This is a double-hull. What you see is the outer hull through which the water will go in and help take the sub down,” says Rao. That’s common to all submarines. The inner, pressurised hull, is another cocoon. He is talking of a cocoon within a cocoon.

At the snub-nose in the bow, on the waterline right now because the submarine is still on the surface, is a sheet of white metal that contrasts with the blackness of the rest of the hull. They are the sonar sheets of the Arihant.

Below it, on either side and under the water, are three or four tubes angled upwards. They are the torpedo barrels. The missiles with nuclear warheads won’t come out of here. The Arihant may not even have to use this in a conflict. It is a strategic weapons platform, expected to be escorted by the hunter-killer-attack submarines.

The nuclear-tipped missiles that will go into its silos are being tried and tested on land. First, it is likely to be armed with the K-15, that have a range of 750km, and subsequently, a more developed missile, at best called the “K-X” now, that is being designed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Bharat Dynamics to have a range of at least 1,500km. (eh? a typo???) Even that is not “strategic”.

The Indian Navy is operating under the belief that it has to compete with the Chinese and must be capable of launching a missile from a submarine with a nuclear warhead that is capable of hitting the target from at least 3,500km.

Inside the ship-building yard, the Arihant glides to a stop. The water hardly ripples. Captain Dutt on the conning tower is speaking into a walkie-talkie. The vessel will have a crew of more than 90 but less than 100.

The idea behind a nuke sub is to stay quiet and undetected undersea for weeks, possibly months. The Advance Technology Vessel project was “officially” begun in 1984 — 25 years ago. The crew will have less, far less, a time to prepare.

Ten years after Kargil, war keeps getting more onerous.


A lot of info in this article, some of which I high lighted. My layman conclusions:-


Collab started in eighties, but ATV is New Russian design of nineties, built in next decade. Basically lot of Russian help, technicians and Russian components. This has to be latest and good design as 3 subs already in built and atleast 2 more planned (with or without slight modifications). My guess will be 2 sets of 3 each means 6 subs of Arihant class. Next 3 subs may have slightly more powerful engine-reactor and more VLS.

Double hull, 85MWt, 112m length, 11m wide, slight hump & conning tower like Borei, manning 95 men (which should be little more than needed like Normal Indian Navy system). I think that to keep the weight down there may not be any towed or side sonar arrays.

For The submerged displacement, I will go with Arun calculations of 6800tons.


A sub weight can be stated in lot of ways:-

Sub without dead weight, say 4000tons
Sub + fixed dead weight, say 5000 tons
Combat weight armed sub = surface weight, say 6000 tons
Submerged weight, say 7000 tons

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 10:52

imho a single photo of the sub floating outside the SBC to its new
pen will be released in a few days.

but they are probably waiting for the arms control wonks and think
tank psyops operators to call it names and go blue in the face trying to talk it down before delivering a single resounding slap on the face with no comment.

atleast I hope so :mrgreen:

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 11:03

Austin wrote:
Arun_S wrote: The case is made of 250 grade maraging steel to maximize fuel mass fraction that is critical for scalable payload versus range flexibility.


Arun I was thinking what if they use an all composite casing instead of maraging steel , can we expect a significant range increase for a 17kt boosted fission payload ?

>2,200 Km

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 11:06

TOI

Jains take shot at 1st nuclear submarine - Arihant
27 Jul 2009, 1013 hrs IST, MUMBAI MIRROR

MUMBAI: "Our religion strongly propagates ahimsa (non-violence). How can a submarine carrying nuclear missiles that could cause immense loss of
life, be named after our God?" asked 85-year-old Jain priest Suryodaysagar Surishwarji, who is currently camping at the Walkeshwar derasar.

Arihant is also a Sanskrit word meaning destroyer of enemies. But in Jainism, the word has a more profound meaning: destroyer of inner enemies such as greed, anger, lust etc.

"Arihant is the foundation of our Jain philosophy. Our navkar mantra begins with it. Naming the nuclear submarine Arihant is a big mistake and must be corrected immediately," said Suryodayasagar, who heads all the Jain sanghs in India.

He will be writing to President Pratibha Patil, also the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, requesting her to reconsider the name.

"We are not opposed to the submarine project per se. The government must do whatever it needs to protect the nation. But you can't name the most potent weapon after our supreme god," said Ashokchandra Surishwarji, another Jain muni.

The munis said they will ask devotees to send letters to the President. "Ours will be a nonviolent agitation. We will write to the President, there will be a signature campaign and there will be silent rallies," said another muni, Sagarchandrasagar.

Jain munis across the country have also decided to use their sermons
as a means to spread the message among devotees.

The Navy spokesperson in Mumbai refused to comment on the issue saying the considered decision must have been taken by higher authorities.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23315
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Jul 2009 11:09

Arun_S wrote:>2,200 Km


But the > 2,200 km is significant enough to go for composite or just not worth the effort ?

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 11:11

Arihant's new pen. Across the channel from the Ship Building Complex. Still under construction in this image.

Image

Image

Anant
BRFite
Posts: 268
Joined: 02 May 1999 11:31
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Anant » 27 Jul 2009 11:19

Gagan Sir,

Is that the deperming netting on top? Please reference this photo.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rmed_2.jpg

Looks very similar. Thanks.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 11:21

Ahhh ...
India shouldn't anymore do Vishwakarma stuti (I.e. armament test) on Buddha-Poornima, and Shakti test series was cursed because of pieceful Buddha. :twisted:

I ask the holy men if the Buddha came to rescue of the peaceful Buddha people of Bengal when the muslim army attacked Bengal. When the Bengal king ran away the peaceful Buddhist men and women come on roadside with folded hand to greet the muslim victor. The holyman need to be reminded that the muslim sultan declared that such disgraceful people who do not fight for freedom deserve not life nor respect; he ordered the head of those buddhist men and breast of the women be chopped of.

That set the foundation to eradication of Buddhist people from India and enmass conversion of remaining Buddhist to peaceful Islam and that region that is now called Bangladesh.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 11:21

goog earth: from middle of bay of bengal:-
- shenzhen 2500km
- shanghai/beijing - 3800km

from a point deep in southern IOR below Sri lanka the distances
increase to 4000km and 7500km. that needs 1x high yield 500kt TN
device and no MIRV if the A3SL form factor is used.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 11:24

That does not look like a de-guassing netting. This is just a semicircular tin roof skeleton we see. The google image is atleast 2 years old.

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2974
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 27 Jul 2009 11:28

Mod edited: Please, no more proposals on the name. There have been way too many.
Last edited by Suraj on 27 Jul 2009 11:30, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Preemptive cleanup

ChandraS

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby ChandraS » 27 Jul 2009 11:34

Singha wrote:TOI

Jains take shot at 1st nuclear submarine - Arihant
27 Jul 2009, 1013 hrs IST, MUMBAI MIRROR

MUMBAI: "Our religion strongly propagates ahimsa (non-violence). How can a submarine carrying nuclear missiles that could cause immense loss of
life, be named after our God?" asked 85-year-old Jain priest Suryodaysagar Surishwarji, who is currently camping at the Walkeshwar derasar.

<snip>


Aha, here's the start of the R&D from the lifafa brigade.

With all due respect to the Jain muni, Arihant as described in the Jain philosphy - destroyer of greed, anger, lust etc. - is perfectly applicable to our submarine. It will destroy the greed, anger, lust, etc of anyone casting an evil eye on Bharat Mata :twisted:

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16768
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jul 2009 11:53

over the last few days we have heard more than once on how the PLAN is ahead of IN on account of their jin SSBNs. (they are ahead on SLBMs, I'm not disputing that)

from a person with some experience in doing noise simulations of subs :
on seeing this pic of the jin submarine :
Good lord!
That thing may as well paint a bull's eye on its side...

:lol:

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Jul 2009 12:01

The specifications of Russian subs have always been a bit of conjucture. If we look at specifications of USA's SSNs like los Angeles, Sea Wolf, Virginia class etc then with length of 110m and dia of 11m, the Arihant should have way more submerged displacement than 6800 tons, so we drift back to the figure of something like 8000 tons submerged weight. So to reconcile all news reports can it be :-

Sub without dead weight, say 5000tons
Sub + fixed dead weight, say 6000-6500 tons
Combat weight armed sub = surface weight, say 7000-8000 tons
Submerged weight, say 7500-9000 tons

Nuclear submarine Arihant to be fitted with K-15 ballistic missiles

The K-15 missiles, which are already under production, can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. They have a range of 700 km. They are 10.4 metres tall and weigh 6.3 tonnes each.



This report gives pretty accurate dimensions of K-15 missile, and this also tells us that dia of Arihant has to be more than 10.4m. So if the dia is 11m and the gentle hump gives us another meter then missile can fit into a double hull with a external height of 12-13m.
Last edited by Raj Malhotra on 27 Jul 2009 12:17, edited 2 times in total.

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3615
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Neela » 27 Jul 2009 12:07

Rahul M wrote:over the last few days we have heard more than once on how the PLAN is ahead of IN on account of their jin SSBNs. (they are ahead on SLBMs, I'm not disputing that)

from a person with some experience in doing noise simulations of subs :
on seeing this pic of the jin submarine :
Good lord!
That thing may as well paint a bull's eye on its side...

:lol:


Rahul

The link to the picture is not working.

Is it similar to this:
http://huynhphuclinh.files.wordpress.co ... 094jin.jpg

vavinash
BRFite
Posts: 556
Joined: 27 Sep 2008 22:06

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby vavinash » 27 Jul 2009 12:09

I had one question regarding the sub specs. Assuming it is 110-112 m long and the Dia is 11 m. Is this just the dia of the circular portion or the height from the base of the sub to the top of the conning tower as shown in the telegraph? If it is indeed the latter then the circular section would probably be 9m in dia. The related submerged displacement would most likely be close to 6500-7000 tonnes.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16768
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jul 2009 12:13

yep, same pic.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 27 Jul 2009 12:21

India, which also is developing a "blue water navy" and has a rivalry with China that goes back decades, sees the new Chinese base as a "cause for security concern," according to India's Naval chief, Adm. Sureesh Mehta.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=90309537

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19885
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jul 2009 12:29

The smooth hulls of western subs are because they are single hulled with only a casing covering the pressure hull,unlike Russian double-hulled subs.The anechoic tiles are made of a special compound,which in older subs have to be wetted when on the surface.Whether the latest anechoic tiles need to be so done is unknown.The Arihant is supposed to feature an Indian developed sonar,the shape/dimensions of which is probably why no pics have been released of the sub at the launch.As I said earlier,the bows of western subs are generally covered by a large flag to hide these features.One British nuclear sub design has a sonar,spherical,that projects out of the bow rather like the tip of a condom! One can be sure that several of the key features which would indicate sensor locations and size might be camouflaged when the sub is towed out to its basin.What is most interesting from the reports available are the future plans,where larger ATVs/SSBNs and even attack SSGNs are to be built.There is a very ambitious N-sub building plan here,which explains why there is much less talk about AIP subs. in our conventional sub building plans.In a past conversation with one our senior admirals,discussing the merits of the AIP systems available,we both agreed that the only true AIP sub was a nuclear powered sub!

Therefore,it appears that in the future,at least 1/3 of our sub inventory will be nuclear powered.It also indicates that we do not want to restrict ourselves to mere defensive sub operations within the IOR,but would prefer to have a forward presence in the Far East to be able to counter any enemy activity planned before it transits into the IOR.IN nuclear subs (SSGNs) operating in ASEAN/far eastern waters would not need any logistic base facilities,say at any Vietnamese port or other friendly country.Given that it requires three N-subs in an inventory to keep one always on patrol at sea,the minimum figure that the IN would require is 12 ,which as modernisation and replacement of subs in the IN's inventory,should increase so that we have an ideal mix of 50% of N-subs by around 2025-2030.Smaller quieter conventional AIP subs would be ideal for littoral warfare operations,with the capability of establishing a naval blockade of the Paki coastline in any crisis with Pak.Now that the ATV has arrived,with an Akula also on the way,it is going to be very interesting to see what kind of second line of conventional sub the IN is looking for.I would guess that it would be a sub design that can accomodate a significant number of Brahmos missiles-at least 8,whose 300km+ land attack/anti-ship range would complement very nicely with the 750KM+ K-15 aboard the Arihant.

vavinash
BRFite
Posts: 556
Joined: 27 Sep 2008 22:06

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby vavinash » 27 Jul 2009 12:47

Philip, if IN is indeed going for 12 nuke subs I do not see the need for 24 conventional ones. It would be better to have 15 (5 SSBN +10 SSGN/SSN) nuke and 20 conventional subs. The conventional subs are only good for littoral warfare and 20 would be enough to deter porkis or any other riff-raff navies.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 12:48

LA class spec.

Displacement:

Surfaced: 6,082 tons
Submerged: 6,927 tons
Length: 362 ft (110 m)
Beam: 33 ft (10 m)

with Arihant slightly wider , the surfaced could be 6500 and submerged
7500 max.

its not a very big sub as you can see....Virginia is 1500t heavier empty and 40mts longer.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 12:51

None of the DDM got to see the propeller / pumpjet. The sub was already in the water, when the journos got to go in. GoI duped the dorks.
Looks like, the sub was already in the water. After the speeches were over, Mrs Gursharan kaur broke the auspicious coconut, the flood gates were opened, and the sub pulled out of the dock by the tugs.
Then the journos hit the food stalls for the free chai and pastry and began to scheme on how to corner advani on hindutva, mayawati on SC reservation, how the gujjar andolan was coming up, what political permutaions were expected in the upcoming maharashtra elections.
Which was just as well. None of these idiots can distinguish a submarine from a tugboat, and we are expecting them to comment on pump jet propulsors or Borei class designs. These dodos can't even distinguish a foxtrot from a kilo. That babette on Times Now went on and on about how the foxtrot had been launched by the PM with the autorickshaw wala standing right in front of it.

:| :evil:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 12:57

pretty pathetic. a well-trained/BRF-certified person should have been able to better describe from bow to stern what the sub really is.
we have no details on how meters long the hump is.

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3615
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Neela » 27 Jul 2009 13:16

Some details emerging from livefist

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fi ... aunch.html


According to the official figures released today, the submarine is 110-meters long, 11-metres wide and has a submerged displacement of 6,000-tons


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests