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INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
yensoy
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby yensoy » 12 Jan 2018 21:58

^^^^ Seriously, are we reading too much into our strong action in Doklam and its reflections on our deterrence ability?

Do we really expect to go to nuclear war when dealing with a local incursion on the border? As a corollary, suppose we didn't have any SSBNs, does that mean we would have let the enemy get away with slicing off our or Bhutanese territory? Would Pak allow us to take back Haji Pir just because? They don't have nuclear subs.

I doubt any war simulation would have predicted Doklam situation to escalate into nuclear winter; however I agree that having the nuclear subs doesn't hurt our case.

In my mind, the subs are insurance against a crazy future leader in China (or Pakistan) following the path of illustrious fat boy Kim.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Jan 2018 22:30

No it is about signals like Global times ranting every move is made with purpose.When we say we are testing or doing this or that the secondary meaning is often the message. Winter time was when a push was always exp3ected. The attempt was started again in Arunachal Pradesh as a test and was foiled. Lizard does not do any move without intention.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Jan 2018 22:32

Serendipitously as I was predicting
This is posturing
Image

Image

krishna_krishna
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Jan 2018 22:36

^^^ Unmistakabley K5 from aridaman tubes, K5 incidentally was to be navy s first mirv capable delivery system since K4 from all image analysis suggest single big maal.

Karan M
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 22:48

Why K5 KK sir, and not A5? Only K4 has supposedly been developed and is due for another test?

dinesh_kimar
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby dinesh_kimar » 12 Jan 2018 23:12

^ i think its the routine A5 test, which HK Rout had tweeted abt earlier.
The K5 ,as per tradition, would be tested on an underwater pontoon off Vishakapatnam, and not from the ITR.

Karan M
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 23:25

Exactly. Range is also K5 class. Speaking of which where are muh MIRVs???? Whut happened to dat program, dun gone silent.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby krishna_krishna » 13 Jan 2018 00:29

Karan M no sir for me just KK is fine, all I can say is lot of stuff has been tested in disguise or another. This will be multiple maal variant.

A google excercise for people (if interested in image analysis) if you dissect k4 via pixel sizes than the top portion dimension mimicked single bum(~2 tns one) , now see if they publish next images of newer tests (in guise of a series) you will see that top portion now would be able to accommodate multiple maals ( after this test)

ramana
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 00:53

I think A5 as the final test is needed before user trials etc.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 00:55

Varoon Shekhar wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/deep-diving-into-the-facts-about-ins-arihant-accident/articleshow/62468708.cms

Interesting article from the Economic Times on the recent 'accident'. Says the government must have known what was going on


It's by Yusuf U. Who is a member here.

Quite logical instead of tirades.

I agree that K4 is now in Arihant.

fanne
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby fanne » 13 Jan 2018 02:08

I don't think we announce our slbm shots, Agni we do as per agreement with TSP

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby SSridhar » 13 Jan 2018 07:03

I never believed the Arihant hatch story when it appeared.

We have to accept that fact that in these matters, we will never know the truth and that is how it should be.

I am also posting the Economic Times article in the Deterrence thread.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2018 13:45

Ru subs do have batches at the rear, apart from the tear hatch There are pics of their subs in the dockyards showing the same.If as stated there was large input( some say Akula class tech) from Ru in the design, we should expect many similarities.I frankly don't think this was a disinfo exercise meant to conceal some other operational factor.If accurate it may explain the delay in the launch of the second boat, INS Arighat.It may have necessitated some mods. on the second boat in the line of the incident.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby uddu » 13 Jan 2018 18:34

There is something simple that everyone missed. That's the mention that the incident happened when sub was in the harbor. As per news the hatch was accidentally opened and water rushed in. Now where in the world, the hatch opening will make the water enter the sub when the sub is in harbor? i don't think the designers are that stupid to have a hatch below waterline. :lol: There goes the authenticity of the news of water entering due to hatch opening. :rotfl: Someone must have got some inputs of some incident and they are trying through media to figure out more about that incident by planting fake stories, or even if no incident to figure out more about our sub/s and where they are etc is what i think. Whatever information they can get by provoking.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby SriKumar » 13 Jan 2018 21:46

'Harbor' does not mean that it is docked. It could have exited its dock and still be in the harbor. This is a completely theoretical comment because one does not usually expect a submarine to start a dive in a harbor (but I know very little about sea stuff, let alone submarine stuff). In any case, the article smelt odd for several reasons. But there is one aspect of the article about the ministry not knowing about this which is funky. It is mischevious and rash, at a minimum. ''The Hindu' should really know better than to try this kind of a stunt....and the fact that they did not, is puzzling.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2018 22:11

If you read the reports, the IN is supposed to have itself admitted that there was flooding due to a hatch being left open requiring significant replacement work of piping.There are a number of flush fitting hatches on subs seen only in dockyards /refit pics, for decoys, commns. buoys, creeper motors, etc.In addition hatches for ballast tanks.Not all are above the waterline. Not having the drawings of the sub with us there's no point in speculating what other reason was there in the absence of any other information to the contrary.I once again remind all that the opening of a wrong sea valve flooded the engine room of the Viraat many years ago when it was in harbour .That also took months to clean up.

Secondly as I said before, perhaps only a skeleton crew was aboard which delayed emergency measures being taken.When a vessel is in the docks, dockyards maintenance technical staff attend to repairs, etc.Even in the best of navies accidents happen during this time when the utmost safety measures are required.A few years ago a fire aboard a USN SSN , the Miami,devastated the sub which was later written off.A similar fire destroyed a Russian sub too.

In the final reckoning, the silver lining is that the sub is now back in action.I feel that the press which knew about the accident,was muzzled on any reporting about the incident until the sub returned to duty.We were expecting the launch of the Arighat much earlier.This may have delayed that event along with the sonar dome problem that the Chakra experienced. Right now we have two Arcs in the water.One on its trials and the other operational.Hopefully the Chakra will join them and within 2-3 years, another Akula-2/3 will be with us as well as.
ATV no.3.This will give us 4-5 N subs operational in a few years time leaving the conv. boats aside.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby uddu » 13 Jan 2018 22:36

Everything is supposed. Suppose it never happened. :) One request to forum members is not to trust journos blindly (excluding some with excellent credibility). They can write anything.

fanne
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby fanne » 13 Jan 2018 23:41

One request to forum members is not to trust journos blindly (excluding some with excellent credibility - Who that might be I wonder?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2018 09:18

Govt not in the loop canard smacks of the fake 'coup' by Gen VP Singh that was enacted.
this was complete with dilli state govt activating its 'spies' and 'spotters' behind every bush on inbound highways waiting for the coup brigades armour to roll in.

a shameful chapter in the overflowing chapters of shame of indian MSM journalism.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2018 11:21

The Hindu report quoted IN sources.I doubt any mainstream paper would resort to such feku reports.Secondly, the report, which has been taken up by several national dailies and overseas media including Newsweek, has not been contradicted by the IN or MOD.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby disha » 14 Jan 2018 11:27

If anybody reads #mediapimps and fall for #mediapimps narrative, then blame yourself. Time and again it has been pointed out that the scum that could not find any job worthwhile became #mediapimps. Of course there are great journos out there and one should step out of their cozy bubble to find those journos. Till then a healthy does of skepticism helps. Some newspapers like Hindu are china shills while (u)NDTV is an american shill.

In the "open hatch, insert foot" article, posters concentrated on this quote:


The incident was first reported by The Hindu. According to an Indian Navy source, a hatch was left open on the rear left side of the ship, allowing seawater to rush into the propulsion area while the Arihant was in harbor. Arihant was out of action for ten months as water was pumped out and pipes were cut out and replaced. Indian authorities likely felt that pipes exposed to corrosive seawater couldn't be trusted again, particularly pipes that carry pressurized water coolant to and from the ship’s 83 megawatt nuclear reactor. Failing pipes could not only endanger the ship’s crew but the entire submarine... and her nuclear weapons.


But they should have concentrated on this part:

India’s first ballistic missile submarine is the result of a $2.9 billion submarine technology program. Construction on Arihant began in 2009, and the ship was commissioned into the Indian Navy seven years later in October 2016. The modified Russian Akula-1 class nuclear attack submarine was lengthened to accommodate twelve K-15 short-range nuclear missiles or four K-4 intermediate range nuclear missiles. K-15 missiles, with their 434-mile range, primarily target Pakistan, while K-4 missiles, with their 2,174-mile range can reach all of Pakistan and as far as the capital of India’s other neighborhood rival, Beijing. A second missile submarine, INS Arighant, was launched in December, and at least three submarines are planned.


What it means:

1. The article is for western audience (of course, see the range is in miles)
2. K4 is operational
3. Arighat is the 3rd boat and is launched.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 14 Jan 2018 12:57

disha wrote:If anybody reads #mediapimps and fall for #mediapimps narrative, then blame yourself. Time and again it has been pointed out that the scum that could not find any job worthwhile became #mediapimps. Of course there are great journos out there and one should step out of their cozy bubble to find those journos. Till then a healthy does of skepticism helps. Some newspapers like Hindu are china shills while (u)NDTV is an american shill.

In the "open hatch, insert foot" article, posters concentrated on this quote:


The incident was first reported by The Hindu. According to an Indian Navy source, a hatch was left open on the rear left side of the ship, allowing seawater to rush into the propulsion area while the Arihant was in harbor. Arihant was out of action for ten months as water was pumped out and pipes were cut out and replaced. Indian authorities likely felt that pipes exposed to corrosive seawater couldn't be trusted again, particularly pipes that carry pressurized water coolant to and from the ship’s 83 megawatt nuclear reactor. Failing pipes could not only endanger the ship’s crew but the entire submarine... and her nuclear weapons.


But they should have concentrated on this part:

India’s first ballistic missile submarine is the result of a $2.9 billion submarine technology program. Construction on Arihant began in 2009, and the ship was commissioned into the Indian Navy seven years later in October 2016. The modified Russian Akula-1 class nuclear attack submarine was lengthened to accommodate twelve K-15 short-range nuclear missiles or four K-4 intermediate range nuclear missiles. K-15 missiles, with their 434-mile range, primarily target Pakistan, while K-4 missiles, with their 2,174-mile range can reach all of Pakistan and as far as the capital of India’s other neighborhood rival, Beijing. A second missile submarine, INS Arighant, was launched in December, and at least three submarines are planned.


What it means:

1. The article is for western audience (of course, see the range is in miles)
2. K4 is operational
3. Arighat is the 3rd boat and is launched.


All smokes and mirrors Disha Sir. I am still confused what happened to INS Aridhaman and the actual number of boats. Much like the Sagarika saga. Did the name change really happen? Personally, I kind of prefer this 'purdah mein rehne do approach around our sea based nuclear detergent.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby disha » 14 Jan 2018 13:36

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:All smokes and mirrors Disha Sir. I am still confused what happened to INS Aridhaman and the actual number of boats. Much like the Sagarika saga. Did the name change really happen? Personally, I kind of prefer this 'purdah mein rehne do approach around our sea based nuclear detergent.


I do not think it was a name change. Since lot of it is under purdah, adding some embellishments over the purdah will not hurt. I think the second boat might as well have been repurposed for SSN. That project has been started as well. Further two more are in works for SSBN with twice the K-4 load out and further still a larger SSBN with 13.5 kilo Tonne displacement and 12 K-5 load outs (K5 > K4 in range. Also there is talk about K-6) is on design board.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the-big-story/story/20171218-india-ballistic-missile-submarine-k-6-submarine-launched-drdo-1102085-2017-12-10

By 2022/2025 (5-8 years), I think India will have at least 3-4 SSBNs and 2-3 SSNs and 2-3 larger SSBNs in fabrication. The pace of construction has gone up rapidly and also expect more prying eyes from #mediapimps fishing for information on India's nuclear submarine fleet.

Here is something

A solitary two-month patrol by a Chinese submarine in late 2013 came as a rude wake-up call for India's security establishment. Chinas most advanced SSN, a Shang class, sailed out from its bastion in Hainan island on December 13, 2013 and returned after a two-month 'anti-piracy' patrol in the Indian Ocean, on February 12, 2014. R&AW assessments termed the deployment 'seriously aggravated India's security concerns'. The ATV headquarters soon dusted out plans for building a series of six indigenous SSNs, shelved by the government over a decade ago due to budgetary constraints. Plans called for a series of submarines capable of speeds of over 25 knots and diving to 500 metres.


That is the plan/design/construction of 6 SSNs is already underway. Note that the original Arihant class submarine design was for a SSN. It was made into a SSBN (or a baby-boomer) post Shakti-II.

Now here is a statement which is self-contradictory at various level (from the above linked article)

Yet, as is the case with the indigenous SSN, the main challenge in building the S-5 lies in its propulsion plant-a 190-MW nuclear plant- says an official familiar with the project. Development work has started on this new plant will have thrice the output of the Arihant's 83 MW reactor which uses Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU). A former BARC official and part of the Reactor Projects Division which built the Arihant's reactor is confident the 83 MW can be scaled up. "One of the biggest challenges in a naval reactor is compacting it to fit a confined space. Since the new platform (S-5) will have a bigger volume and displacement, upscaling the present reactor should be no problem." Without a breakthrough in propulsion technology, India's sea-based deterrent will continue to be a modest one.


If the S5 reactor is 3x the size of Arihant, then should it not be @250 MW? An SSN with 190-MW nuclear plant? That is an oxymoron, since US-Virginia has I think 150-MW. Even US-Los Angeles SSN has 165-MW. I might be chewing some cud, but 190-MW for an @ 6000 tonne SSN is an overkill.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby uddu » 14 Jan 2018 13:38

Philip wrote:The Hindu report quoted IN sources.I doubt any mainstream paper would resort to such feku reports.Secondly, the report, which has been taken up by several national dailies and overseas media including Newsweek, has not been contradicted by the IN or MOD.


Don't you think when the govt comes to contradict something that's part of nuclear triad, we have to let out some information, which could be of use to the enemies? Even whether the sub was there at the harbor during that time or not? Then why give such tidbits.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 15 Jan 2018 19:55

I think the govt. clamped down on any reportage of the incident earlier until the boat was back at sea.This way it would also dispel any false rumours and speculation of worse damage, etc.You can take it any way.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby RKumar » 16 Jan 2018 15:08

After the sub is fixed, it is not harmful to share the info with public although it was not required.

But look at the brighter side, it confirms that our boats are doing active patrols. It is good to fix such critical issues during peacetime and apply these in follow up boats. All good, so just chill and relax.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2018 16:56

I had enough of the pointy nose weapons. I need my ogival nose and I want it on Jan18.

Philip
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2018 17:55

Perhaps also a "pointed" message to Xi Gins and his eerie men who may have thought that our SSBN was incapacitated was back at sea either pointy things aimed at them!


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