Indian Naval Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 13 Sep 2009 23:39

Igorr wrote:Have posted in my blog a short review of the Russian naval propulsion systems.


Respective manufacturer sites, not included in igorr's blog:
Diesel
http://www.zvezda.spb.ru/index.php?opti ... Itemid=123
Boilers
http://www.bz.ru/ru/engineering-engin2.html
Steam turbines
http://www.ktz.kaluga.ru/russian/turbines/default.htm
and one more, of special interest to IN
http://www.okbm.nnov.ru/index.php?optio ... ng=english

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Sep 2009 00:48


Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16448
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 14 Sep 2009 00:52

many items have been 'cleared' in the past but not been ordered.

is the IN actually interested in this item ?

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 457
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 14 Sep 2009 00:53


India Strategic quotes unnamed Indian officials as saying that the technology onboard the Hawkeye E-2D is "very tempting" and that although neither the Gorshkov aircraft carrier which India is buying from Russia nor India's first aircraft carrier indigenously being built would be able to accommodate this aircraft, India's future aircraft carriers could be a little bigger.

"By the time this aircraft comes, and by the time the Indian Navy gets used to it from initial shore-based operations, plans for two more aircraft carriers could be amended to house this system."

and it is obvious that the next two will be nuke propelled ,no matter what whether we get E-2D or not.period

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Sep 2009 01:00

Rahul M wrote:many items have been 'cleared' in the past but not been ordered.

is the IN actually interested in this item ?



Well, the E-2C was offered. And IN said "no" to that.

So, the clearance of the D variant is the next logical step. Let us see what the IN says.

But, in itself the clearance is of great importance - specially considering that the Bush Admin offered the C variant.

Let us see.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19624
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Sep 2009 18:38

The Hawkeye is of little use to us,as it cannot be operated from any of our carriers,in service or planned,since the aircraft requires catapult launch.Used from land bases,it is shortlegged and is a slow turboprop engined bird.The interesting fact is that this offer is coming only when we have stated that we want to develop our own AEW/AWACS based upon an Embraer airframe,pewrhaps with some Israeli assistance as they are providing the electronics/avionics ,radar etc. for our Phalcon AWACS based upon an IL-76 airframe.We also have a large number of Russian KA-31 helos in service with more being ordered,aboard our warships.What the IN abdnd services really need are at least 3 more AWACS Phalcons,a dozen+ AEW/AWACS based upon the Embraer and a large number of airships equipped with AEW radar.Acquiring more AEW KA-31s enables even smaller warships to possess such capabilities and our growing UAV inventory ,of which the IN was the pioneer in operating such a squadron,adds to providing an all-round AEW capability.

Here is an interesting article on the IN's gaping hole in our carroer capability and fleet air arm.

India Struggles to Keep Navy Afloat

Siddharth Srivastava | Bio | 01 Sep 2009
World Politics Review

NEW DELHI -- India's defense procurement and modernization processes are infamously slow, and mired in red tape, corruption, and lack of long-term strategic planning. One prominent result has been the country's unsuccessful quest to either procure aircraft carriers internationally or build them at home.

The delays have forced India to refit its sole aircraft carrier -- the 50-year-old INS Viraat, which according to earlier plans should have been junked by now -- to operate for five more years, by which time India hopes to have procured more.

The irony is that, over time, Viraat's air fleet has also been substantially depleted due to accidents, which makes the ship essentially a "toothless tiger," as an anonymous army official was recently quoted as saying. In the 1980s, the Indian navy inducted roughly 30 British Sea Harriers for the 28,000-ton Viraat. More than half have been lost to crashes, with the latest going down in August in Goa, killing the pilot and resulting in the grounding of the jets pending an inquiry.

Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, was originally commissioned in the British Royal Navy as HMS Hermes in 1959. The Indian navy acquired the platform in 1987.

Sources say that the vessel's 18-month refitting schedule would probably have taken even more time had it not been for the November Mumbai terror attacks, in which militants used a sea route from Pakistan. Since the 40,000-ton carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard will not be ready before 2015-2016 due to years of political and bureaucratic indifference, the need to keep Viraat operational became more urgent.

Despite India's efforts to hasten the procurement of the refurbished 44,570-ton Admiral Gorshkov from Russia, that ship -- currently undergoing a refit at the Sevmash Shipyard in North Russia -- will only be available by 2013, assuming existing differences are sorted out. India and Russia have yet to work out the final cost of the Gorshkov's refit, with Moscow wanting nearly $3 billion, while India hopes to spend a little more than $2 billion.

Indian navy commanders have long tried to impress the political leadership about India's need for at least three aircraft carriers to secure strategic interests that stretch from Africa's eastern coast to the Malacca Strait, in order to assure that two remain active -- one each for the eastern and western seaboards -- even if the third must be refitted and upgraded..

A growing rivalry has emerged between India and China to control the waters of the Indian Ocean. China has spoken of developing three ocean-going fleets, to patrol the areas of Japan and Korea, the western Pacific, and the Malacca Strait and Indian Ocean region.

On paper, at least, manning the seas is a crucial element in India's ongoing defense modernization exercise, estimated at over $100 billion. The Indian Navy is looking to produce at least 25 submarines valued at $20 billion to meet challenges across the Indian Ocean. The government also has plans to invest more than $15 billion over the next 10 years on warships.

There has been some progress as well, especially in efforts to meet heightened threats from Pakistan and to balance the advanced military capabilities of China. The Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India has reported that over the three years from 2004-7, India has spent $10.5 billion on military imports, making it one of the largest arms importers in the developing world.

India launched its first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, the INS Arihant, for trials in July. Part of a $3 billion plan to build five such submarines, the Arihant would complete the triad of nuclear launch capability from air, land and sea platforms. The project, conceptualized in the late 1970s, is already long-delayed. Built under the Advanced Technology Vessel project with Russian help, Arihant is expected to be commissioned around 2012, making India the sixth country -- after the U.S., Russia, China, France and Britain -- to possess a nuclear-powered submarine.

Meanwhile, the construction of the highly advanced Scorpene submarine is progressing at the upgraded Mazgon Dock in Mumbai, under a $3.5 billion deal for six such French vessels.

India has also developed a submarine-launched supersonic missile using a modification of the BrahMos cruise missiles, a capability limited so far to advanced nations such as U.S., France and Russia. Ship- and land-launched versions of the BrahMos cruise missiles are also being inducted in the navy and army. The state-controlled Defense Research and Development Organization is also undertaking a joint development project with Israel Aerospace Industries for a surface-to-air missile for use from land and ship.

In early 2007, India purchased the 36-year-old 16,900-ton warship U.S.S. Trenton -- re-christened INS Jalashwa -- for $50 million. Trenton is the first Indian warship purchased from the U.S., and the second-largest that India now possesses, after the Viraat.

In addition to expanding its naval capabilities, India is also intent on improving its air force. Trials began in August for India's largest-ever defense deal, the $12 billion contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MRCA). Lockheed Martin and Boeing (U.S.), Dassault's Rafale (France), Gripen (Sweden), MiG (Russia) and Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies) have begun presenting their fighter jets for flight testing by the Indian air force.

The new MRCA fleet will replace the shrinking MiG-21 interceptors, filling the gap between the more powerful Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs and the low-end indigenous Tejas LCA lightweight fighter.

The question of India's aircraft carriers, however, remains caught in a time warp.

Siddharth Srivastava is a New Delhi-based journalist covering foreign and strategic affairs, security, politics, defense, business and lifestyle issues. He has been a correspondent for the Times of India and is widely published in newspapers and magazines in Asia, Europe and America. His Web site can be found here.

..


http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=4237

nrshah
BRFite
Posts: 571
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 16:36

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nrshah » 14 Sep 2009 21:24

Philip wrote:The interesting fact is that this offer is coming only when we have stated that we want to develop our own AEW/AWACS based upon an Embraer airframe


Exactly. I have always pointed that with Americans we will never be able to indigenize.

-Nitin

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 443
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Raveen » 14 Sep 2009 21:35

nrshah wrote:
Philip wrote:The interesting fact is that this offer is coming only when we have stated that we want to develop our own AEW/AWACS based upon an Embraer airframe


Exactly. I have always pointed that with Americans we will never be able to indigenize.

-Nitin



or with the Russians or with the French...
it is in thier best interest as producers to keep us as consumers...
just like it is in our best interest to become producers asap

unfortunately there seems to be hardly any focus on that...and those who live in glass houses dont throw stones...let's clean up our own act before we blame anyone for watching out for thier self interest...after all we are to be blamed for not watching out for our own interest

KrishG
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 1294
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 20:43
Location: Land of Trala-la

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishG » 14 Sep 2009 21:57

The interesting fact is that this offer is coming only when we have stated that we want to develop our own AEW/AWACS based upon an Embraer airframe


The DRDO AWACS as of now is not being designed to operate from carriers. Ofcourse, we can't expect an Embraer to land on an A/C and given it's limited range it would difficult for Navy to use it from airfields.

I personally believe that V-22 Osprey would still be good bet considering VTOL capability and longer range compared to Ka-31. The Ospery has comparable range and payload to that of E-2D while being able to operate from Indian carriers.

Btw, Does anybody know what are radar and systems Boeing has proposed for the V-22 ??

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3147
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 14 Sep 2009 22:27

a disclaimer before i start, I am not very well versed with operation of radars. Given this, is it possible that we could have smaller sized aerostat balloons carrying radars, hoisted from the carriers for a 360 deg. The balloons over the sea would definitely have to contend with rough weather but if they are small in size they could definitely prove a cheaper option than the ka-31 aew helos.

a_kumar
BRFite
Posts: 481
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 23:53
Location: what about it?

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby a_kumar » 14 Sep 2009 22:45

Lalmohan wrote:if the sub fails to rendezvous with the recharging ship then its dead. better to maintain an autonomous capability to recharge?


Thats what I initially thought... but this could just be a plan B in special cases. When needed and feasible, instead of surfacing, battery recharge can be outsourced!!

Here is a freak thought going beyond CBGs: Forgetting whether it is charged via electricity or replenished in some other form, the point is providing subs "the juice" without them having to resurface or come to snorkel depth. Keep in mind that even AIP has a 2-3 week limitation and worse, underwater speed is severely curtailed in this mode?

If IN ships are appropriately equipped, then subs could hypothetically reach out to scattered IN ships when feasible and piggyback momentarily. IOW, subs could hop from ship to ship or even return to same ship for "juice", without resurfacing for as long as feasible. This wouldn't even need a major modification of surface vessels.

Not going to work if sub is already being trailed, so will have to fall back on good old diesels in that case.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 Sep 2009 00:58

Cross posting from MRCA thread
-------------------------------------
Amongst the candidates in MRCA competition F-18 is unique in that it also carries a deadly trojen horse with direct link to massa with capabelity to snoop and disrupt Indian of Network Centric infrastructure, and remote control. India should keep it a pole's distance.

Indian Navy is the first one to raise this sensitive issue.

Devil In The Details? Bogey In The Indian Navy's P-8I Aircraft Contract
Wednesday, September 09, 2009
The Indo-US contract for eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaisance & anti-submarine warfare (LRMRASW) aircraft was signed at the beginning of this year, but, according to sources in the Navy, there appear to be some bogeys that seem to have passed the muster of South Block bureaucrats, certainly the ones who signed the deal. With such committed focus on the end user monitoring (EUM) clauses, sources point to a certain other clause in the contract that could spell potential trouble in the future, not just for the P-8I relationship, but others Indo-US contracts as well.

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

There are folks who believe this is precisely what the US government has seen done in contracts with Pakistan's P-3 and F-16 fleet. Could something be amiss or is this paranoia? Has something far more dangerous passed under the radars of South Block?

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 16 Sep 2009 18:34

We also have a large number of Russian KA-31 helos in service with more being ordered,aboard our warships


Hmm. Philip saar. While praising the Rodina and all else is fine and dandy, even you will have to admit that the KA-31 by nature is very very very limited and at best can be used for over the horizon detection and targeting of surface combatants. It is a great "airborne artillery post" , but as an early warning platform for airborne threats , it is woefully inadequate, given it's short legs, endurance and very limited radar by nature of it's platform and design. You really need a full up AEW on a great fixed wing platform

And anyways, I do think IN should go for Cats / EM rail launch in their follow on carriers. That thing really is not rocket science and if we can initiate a program now, realizing a EM rail gun based on linear induction motors (like in the Maglev trains) should not be impossible in a 7 to 10 year period.

This STOBAR puts serious limits on the size and MTOW s of the planes we will be able to carry. You know it as well as anyone else, with CATs, a Naval fighter will not be an equal to it's land based equivalent. If the Argies had a half way decent A2A missile they could have shot the RN out of the skies over Falklands, or even better just half a dozen more Exocets and the Hermes and Enterprise would have been at the bottom.

Without AEW, you are toast. Not that the Brit equivalent of the KA 31 (the Sea King heli based AEW radar) did any good there in terms of AEW.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 16 Sep 2009 18:35

BTW, Shiv Aroor in his blog posts that Project 15A is to be launched this week. That ship sure looks sweet with Brahmos and MF Star. I think it will easily be on of the top 3 ships in it's class anywhere when it is launched.


Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1545
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 16 Sep 2009 20:02

Boeing's statement in reaction to Livefist's 'Malicious Code' report
In your story, "Is Indo-US plane deal a compromise?" (India Today, Sept 11), you leave readers with the impression that a "potentially explosive clause" in the contract India signed for the purchase of eight Boeing P-8I aircraft will allow an unnamed US entity to inject malicious code into the aircraft operating software. In fact, the purpose of the clause is quite the opposite. The malicious code clause, signed by Boeing with full concurrence, intentionally protects India against injection of any malicious software that could inhibit the desired and designed function of the equipment, or cause it physical damage. The Government of India stipulated the requirement, and by signing the contract, Boeing is agreeing it will not include, nor allow third parties to include any malicious software in the delivered system. Boeing has passed this requirment down to our suppliers. Boeing takes this contractual requirement extremely seriously as our company reputation and operation demands the highest ethical behavior. [STATEMENT ENDS]

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 20:09

Aroor, by trying to start a public debate on this matter, is going to make a bigger mess out of this rather silly topic.

SanjibGhosh
BRFite
Posts: 150
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 18:49

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 16 Sep 2009 20:16

Russia to equip four Indian subs with new cruise missiles

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090916/156148137.html



Russia's Zvezdochka shipyard said on Wednesday it will install Club-S cruise missile systems on four Kilo class diesel submarines in service with the Indian navy in the next five years.

Russia has built ten Kilo class submarines for India. Only two of them — the INS Sindhugosh and INS Sindhuvijay — have reportedly been equipped with the Club-S (SS-N-27) cruise missiles to date.

"The new missile system will be installed on the INS Sindhuratna, INS Sindhuraj, INS Sindhushastra, and INS Sindhuvir. The retrofit will be carried out at Indian shipyards," the shipyard in northern Russia said in a statement.

vishwakarmaa
BRFite
Posts: 385
Joined: 19 Jun 2008 08:47

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishwakarmaa » 16 Sep 2009 21:54

NRao wrote:Aroor, by trying to start a public debate on this matter, is going to make a bigger mess out of this rather silly topic.


Yes, he should raise more valid questions.

Some are-
Why Indian Jet pilots are being paid peanuts compared to foreign hired pilots?
Why huge money is again and again spent on imports, at the cost of domestic defence projects?
Why Indian scientists are paid peanuts and denied costly tours to foreign academias while Indian babus spend 5 times on touring foreign arms companies hosted invitations?

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 16 Sep 2009 23:34

Yes, he should raise more valid questions.
Is the issue with shafts and propellors sorted out, are they fitted finally?
What is the current status of MF-STAR and Barak 8? Are they at least in land test phase? Or is India going to have INS Brahmaputra - New Generation?

bijit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 16 May 2009 11:15

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bijit » 17 Sep 2009 01:00

vina wrote:
We also have a large number of Russian KA-31 helos in service with more being ordered,aboard our warships


Hmm. Philip saar. While praising the Rodina and all else is fine and dandy, even you will have to admit that the KA-31 by nature is very very very limited and at best can be used for over the horizon detection and targeting of surface combatants. It is a great "airborne artillery post" , but as an early warning platform for airborne threats , it is woefully inadequate, given it's short legs, endurance and very limited radar by nature of it's platform and design. You really need a full up AEW on a great fixed wing platform
....
Without AEW, you are toast. Not that the Brit equivalent of the KA 31 (the Sea King heli based AEW radar) did any good there in terms of AEW.


While not disputing the fact that a fixed wing AEW/AEWCS is always better than a rotary wing platform like KA-31 or the ASaC 7, it would be wrong to just call them a glorified AAP. And btw ASaC 7 (the AEW version of Sea King) was designed after the Falklands War. The radars on these birds do have a decent range and power. What they lack are on board control facilities, and ability to operate far away from the mothership. On the other hand they are not tied to the carriers, and could easily be operated out of one of the far away escorts/ screening ship.

On a related note, why is the IN looking at E-2D. There is no plans for a cat equiped carrier in the near future. And for land based AEW cover IN can and should go for their variant of phalcon. It is more powerful than the E2 and will have commonality with the IAF.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16448
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2009 01:12

On a related note, why is the IN looking at E-2D.

AFA we know navy isn't. all that has happened is the americans making a sales pitch.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Sep 2009 02:13

On a related note, why is the IN looking at E-2D.

AFA we know navy isn't. all that has happened is the americans making a sales pitch.


Nahh.

2007 :: Northop's advanced Hawkeye-2D maritime reconnaissance plane on offer to India: report

After receiving a cold shoulder from the Indian Navy for Northrop Grumman's Hawkeye 2C aircraft, the US administration has apparently cleared the sale of its most advanced maritime reconnaissance plane, the Hawkeye-2D, to India.

According to a report in the forthcoming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, the Indian Navy had issued an RFI (Request for Information) for the aircraft to the US government some time back.


India has been interested in the Hawkeye even prior to her interest in the P-8!!

IN was offered the 2C, which In did not like. So, the US offered the 2D. Never an issue about the "2", just the "C" vs. "D".

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Sep 2009 02:19

why is the IN looking at E-2D


My GUESS is that the IN has subscribed to the 1000 ship navy concept proposed by Adm Mullins(sp?). I feel that the IN sees some gain in plugging into the US/NATO "system"s under some circumstances. Going out on a very long limb here ........... but, IN could do with some real-time intel under some circumstances. And, share some going the other way.

I have to suspect that the Russian equipment cannot be integrated.

The new networks are very futuristic and IN for one sees a LOT of play there I suspect.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16448
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2009 02:27

from the above report :

According to a report in the forthcoming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, the Indian Navy had issued an RFI (Request for Information) for the aircraft to the US government some time back.

don't know if this issue ever carried such a news, one we haven't heard of till now.

all we know is IN is interested in AEW&C craft. I'll believe it is the E-2 when IN says so.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Sep 2009 02:38

This will blow your hat away:

2005 :: Indian navy eyes E-2 Hawkeye for Carrier

IIRC, the 2D was on the drawing board then. (I recall posting the first picture of the 2D on BR when it came out - with India as a potential client. Do not recall which year tho'.)

Following is Northrop Grumman press releaseS:

2006 :: Northrop Grumman, U.S. Navy Brief Indian Navy on Hawkeye 2000

2007 :: Photo Release -- Northrop Grumman Names Gyanendra Sharma as Managing Director of Business Development for Its New Delhi Office

Sharma will also expand awareness of Northrop Grumman's core capabilities with programs such as E-2C Hawkeye and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye,


Very old story sir. Very old story.

Added later:

The Hawkeye 2000 is an upgraded version of the 2C. IN rejected that.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2204
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Sep 2009 03:23

NRao wrote:India has been interested in the Hawkeye even prior to her interest in the P-8!!

IN was offered the 2C, which In did not like. So, the US offered the 2D. Never an issue about the "2", just the "C" vs. "D".


Since its not going to be carrier based, whats the advantage of say gulfstream based AEW's for navy versus hawkeye ?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Sep 2009 04:54

Cybaru wrote:
NRao wrote:India has been interested in the Hawkeye even prior to her interest in the P-8!!

IN was offered the 2C, which In did not like. So, the US offered the 2D. Never an issue about the "2", just the "C" vs. "D".


Since its not going to be carrier based, whats the advantage of say gulfstream based AEW's for navy versus hawkeye ?


IF you read the first URL in my previous post, teh author claims that the IN was thinking about the Hawkeye on the Vicky. :D.

Well clearly that was 2005 and it was fashionable then I guess.

But, recent reports claim that the IN is interested in a land based system so that they can used to operating one (not to take off/land on a carrier, but just the electronics, etc). My extrapolation is that the IN is seriously considering a nuclear based carrier in the near future (near is relative). And, IF that is true, it should be a rather large/larger than even the Vicky I would imagine. In which case they could think of hosting a 2D. Dunno. Just my guess.

On Gulfstream - they are getting the Brazilian planes for this sole purpose, but I suspect those will be an all India effort - IAF + IN. The 2D will be solely IN. And, for what it is worth the 2D will allow compatibility with US/NATO elements. ???????

John
BRFite
Posts: 1815
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 17 Sep 2009 05:13

NRao wrote:On Gulfstream - they are getting the Brazilian planes for this sole purpose, but I suspect those will be an all India effort - IAF + IN. The 2D will be solely IN. And, for what it is worth the 2D will allow compatibility with US/NATO elements. ???????

After IN's experience with Dhruv they likely don't want to put all chips in one bucket hence they are also looking at E-2D while Embraer version is developed. Do agree we need to look for larger platform if it is going to be land based but IN does go with catapults for its next carrier it would make sense.

What is the current status of MF-STAR and Barak 8? Are they at least in land test phase? Or is India going to have INS Brahmaputra - New Generation?

I believe MF STAR is already tested and Barak-8 is undergoing testing?

adel ansari
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 21
Joined: 18 Aug 2009 17:43

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 17 Sep 2009 07:27

scorpene vs u214. Pak navy is all set to order 3 u214 subs. We were offered 214 but chose scorps. However i have been browsing 4 more details abt 214 and am of opinion that they are superior to scorps. Also our scorps come sans aip.. 214 looks to b overall better. What promptd in to go for inferior and costlier option? Will this blunder concede our qualitative edge to pak? Please enlighten me. Thanks. * plz excuse the formatting, am on mobile.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1127
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 17 Sep 2009 07:41

Why are we opting for Klub-n when we have a superior Brahmos?
And I thought the Kilos are supposed to be slowly phased out by 2018. So, is this investment worth the buck.?

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1057
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dinesha » 17 Sep 2009 09:35

INS Kochi: The new destroyer
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... ehHe7IsSU=

NEW DELHI: The Navy will launch a new stealth destroyer named INS Kochi on Friday. It is the second of the Project 15-A vessels that are being built at home.


The project is running behind schedule as INS Kochi has been launched when the earlier vessel, INS Calcutta, is far from ready for induction into the Navy. INS Calcutta is the first ship of Project 15-A.

The 6,500-ton INS Kochi is being built at Mazagon Docks Limited in Mumbai and it has been designed by the Directorate of Naval Design.

Three Delhi class destroyers - INS Delhi, INS Mysore and INS Mumbai - are already in service.

In keeping with naval tradition, the warship will be launched by Madhulika Verma, wife of Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

One key aspect of Project 15-A is the stealth feature of the ships. They will be fitted with the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos and long range surface to air missiles.

It will have an MFStar multifunction radar system for acquiring data on surface and air targets.

For close range targets it will have four AK-630 rapid fire guns and a medium range gun. There will be twin tube torpedo launchers and anti-submarine rocket launchers. It will have Humsa sonar developed by the Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory.

The launch procedure itself will be new for the warship that will have two multi-role helicopters providing aerial support. A pontoon-assisted launch technique is being employed to avoid slipway constraints on heavier vessels. This is the first time such a technique is being used for a warship built at home.

Officials hope that the ship will be ready for induction in the Navy on time without any delays. Work on INS Calcutta is running behind schedule.

The Navy is emphasising induction of vessels built in Indian shipyards. Several key projects are going on to overcome the problem of maintaining a suitable force level

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 17 Sep 2009 10:21

Why are we opting for Klub-n when we have a superior Brahmos?
And I thought the Kilos are supposed to be slowly phased out by 2018. So, is this investment worth the buck.?


My guess is that is all we can do within the Kilo's limitations. This is the MLU for the Kilos.

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 17 Sep 2009 12:04

John wrote:I believe MF STAR is already tested and Barak-8 is undergoing testing?

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has recently signed a contract to develop and supply the land-based Barak 8 Air and Missile Defense (AMD) System to a foreign customer.
The Barak 8 AMD, an advanced all-weather, day/night system capable of multiple simultaneous engagements in complex scenarios, provides a 360° defense against a wide variety of airborne platforms and munitions from short and medium ranges. The land-based system is based on the Naval Barak 8 AMD system that has been sold to the Israeli Navy and to foreign customers.
The Barak 8 AMD system includes a unique battle management, command, control, communication and intelligence center (BMC4I); an interceptor; and a Land-Based Multi-Function Surveillance, Track & Guidance Radar (LB-MF-STAR). The BMC4I, produced by the MBT Division of IAI's Missiles, Systems, and Space Group, offers both stand alone operation for a single fire unit, and joint task force coordination (JTC). The JTC mode allows for the synergy of all available resources, giving the user maximum operational flexibility.
The LB-MF-STAR, produced by ELTA Systems Ltd., IAI's group and wholly owned subsidiary, supports air defense missions and guides AMD weapon systems. It can deliver an accurate, high quality arena situation picture and extract low Radar Cross Section (RCS) targets even in the toughest environmental conditions. The LB-MF-STAR is a digital Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) Radar System which incorporates new, advanced technologies and includes one rotating S-band Phased Array Antenna.

It says single-face rotating PAR, meaning something like Sampson design. Have they changed the concept only for land based version or this also corresponds to naval MF-STAR? The last I've heard of it is that in November 2006 a single faced test model was to start emission tests. Silence after that.Barak 8 is said to be scheduled for service in 2010, no actual infiormation on test results.
Last edited by SNaik on 17 Sep 2009 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63362
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Sep 2009 12:19

U214 << U212. the germans have kept the platinum grade stuff just for their own navy and IN was not convinced that U214 had enough of bleeding edge tech to justify the topdog price tag.

with France its a bit different as their navy is all-nuclear and doesnt need to keep secret certain SSK tech .

John
BRFite
Posts: 1815
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 17 Sep 2009 17:32

SNaik wrote:It says single-face rotating PAR, meaning something like Sampson design. Have they changed the concept only for land based version or this also corresponds to naval MF-STAR? The last I've heard of it is that in November 2006 a single faced test model was to start emission tests. Silence after that.Barak 8 is said to be scheduled for service in 2010, no actual infiormation on test results.

That is the land based version which will have only one phase array radar based on their info the naval version will have:
"The MF Star includes 4 active arrays in S-band frequency.."

koti wrote:Why are we opting for Klub-n when we have a superior Brahmos?
And I thought the Kilos are supposed to be slowly phased out by 2018. So, is this investment worth the buck.?

Kilo can be fired from torpedo tubes, the brahmos is limited to vls launch.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19624
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 17 Sep 2009 18:13

A Q that has been in my mind for a very long time.Would appreciate any info on the subject.Why was there no Kilo-2 type of sub designed ? We've had the 636 version earlier which the PLN has acquired.I ask this because an Amur (single-hulled) deisgn with Brahmos has been designed for India some time ago,awaiting a nod from the IN.The Kilo is still being sold,to Venezuela and Vietnam.I am sure that based upon the design,which has been a very successful one,an AIP Brahmos equipped version could be a winner too.For the IN,it would make it far easier than acquiring an entirely new class.The Kilo's best features with moe modern eqpt. within,plus Brahmos and Klub missiles aboard, could be an attractive prospect for both the IN and Russia.

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 17 Sep 2009 18:44

John wrote:That is the land based version which will have only one phase array radar based on their info the naval version will have:
"The MF Star includes 4 active arrays in S-band frequency.."


Thanks, John, I know that. Th question is - do you have any bit of information that naval MF-STAR has been succesfully tested in it's full four-face configuration? On which Israel or India Navy ship has it been installed for tests?
Instead we have the information that Israel has adopted a totally different concept of single rotating radar face for the land based version of MF-STAR. Therefore my question - is this change adopted only for land based version or the test results of multiple-face naval version have led to the change in design concept and will this design also be adopted for naval version?

bijit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 16 May 2009 11:15

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bijit » 17 Sep 2009 20:41

SNaik wrote:
John wrote:That is the land based version which will have only one phase array radar based on their info the naval version will have:
"The MF Star includes 4 active arrays in S-band frequency.."


Thanks, John, I know that. Th question is - do you have any bit of information that naval MF-STAR has been succesfully tested in it's full four-face configuration? On which Israel or India Navy ship has it been installed for tests?
Instead we have the information that Israel has adopted a totally different concept of single rotating radar face for the land based version of MF-STAR. Therefore my question - is this change adopted only for land based version or the test results of multiple-face naval version have led to the change in design concept and will this design also be adopted for naval version?


All land based phased array radars are single face. And many of them even non-rotating (AN/MPQ. It makes sense for a land based system as you can easily reorient to face the usually only one axis of threat. The few multi-face ones are the huge early warning types like PAVE-PAWS.

It will be very difficult to just test the full fledeged 4-face system and the missiles without deploying it on an appropriate sized hull (We are not USA with a huge fleet including test ships lying around). So I guess a full fledged test will have to wait its deployment on the Kolkata. AFAIK Israel on the other hand has no plans for ships of comparable size. Possibly it can be tested from a land based 4-faced deployment ?

But is it really necessary to be testing the 4 faced system together ? Most of the times only a single face will be used to guide a missile (at least in the most difficult terminal engagement stages).

John
BRFite
Posts: 1815
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 18 Sep 2009 03:20

SNaik wrote:Thanks, John, I know that. Th question is - do you have any bit of information that naval MF-STAR has been succesfully tested in it's full four-face configuration? On which Israel or India Navy ship has it been installed for tests?
Instead we have the information that Israel has adopted a totally different concept of single rotating radar face for the land based version of MF-STAR. Therefore my question - is this change adopted only for land based version or the test results of multiple-face naval version have led to the change in design concept and will this design also be adopted for naval version?

Have not run into anything saying it has been tested but IAI has implement phased array radar in Phalcon, Greenpine etc so they certainly have enough experiance. I believe the first deployment will be on Kolkata and would most likely require good deal of testing. As for land based version it not cost prudent for 4 faced radar since the main advantage of reduced detection time is not as important for LB version plus it can be networked with 3 other single face radar to provide better coverage.
The deal for MF-Star was signed 3 years ago not sure if its P-15A all it mentions is "Elta's largest deal included several of its EL/M-2248 Multi-Function Surveillance, Tracking and Missile Guidance (MF-STAR) radars to upgrade an undisclosed customer's naval flagships for $200 million." [ur=http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-26682948_ITM]Link[/url]

bijit wrote:But is it really necessary to be testing the 4 faced system together ? Most of the times only a single face will be used to guide a missile (at least in the most difficult terminal engagement stages).

Barak-8 is active guided uses MF-STAR only for mid course guidance and target detection. MF-STAR will not be needed to provide illumination to guide the missile in terminal phase. So it should make things simpler integrating them.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests