Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Oct 2016 03:09

Sid - i follow the logic, but fail to see how apaches alone can sanitise to any serious depth...?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 14 Oct 2016 03:09

S-400 is a name given to S-300PMU-3 which is highest evolution of S-300 system. For marketing purpose it was names S-400.

However, there are real enhancements:

Engagement Envelope upper limit to 400 Kms.
Multiple kinds of missiles (different range, direct hit and Active radar homing missiles)
AESA Radar
Radar has been refined to counter jammers and PGMs by using automatic frequency hopping technique (According to Carlo Kopp)

Some good reads:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... le-system/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Oct 2016 03:46

Bheeshma wrote:Yes but the range will ensure pakis are always a nervous wreck while flying. Even 120 Km or so for MR-SAM is the max range actual range will be much shorter.

It will make their mission planning very very hard.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 14 Oct 2016 06:59

Lalmohan wrote:Sid - i follow the logic, but fail to see how apaches alone can sanitise to any serious depth...?

Lalmullah you are bang on! Khan will deploy Solah CJs blk 50s dedicated for sead and dead roles as well as upcoming growlers and soon to be retired prowlers. Apaches would have a very hard time in this day and age to go up against modern multilayered defences. First gulf war they did take out some radars in the opening fight but the world has moved on. Enough OT before we catch a hellphyr ourselves!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2016 07:30

per my limited understanding
S300E4 is the latest incarnation in AA role and features a new 200k missile
S400 is the AA + ABM system but the largest missiles 48N (2 per telar) are quite old
S500 under development and will feature "true" HTK next gen ABM interceptors and new large LRSAM missiles while keeping the 96 and 96E MRSAMs, also updated radars and EW

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2016 07:35

^^ we need this missile for sure for the S400 deal to make sense....it is a SM6++ perhaps the 2nd stage being a AAM style high-G weapon to take out manouvering targets also at full range.... by positioning TELARs near the border in shoot n scoot mode, while radars and C3I nodes remain well behind, this can make life hard for enemy AWACS to venture anywhere nearby

The second missile added to the S-400 is the new 40N6, a long range weapon with a cited range of 215 nautical miles, equipped with an active and semi-active homing seeker, intended to kill AWACS, JSTARS and other high value assets, such as EA-6B/EA-18G support jammers. Further details of this weapon remain to be disclosed. The range improvement to around twice that of the 48N6E2 suggests a two stage weapon, or a much larger motor casing with a larger propellant load. Russian media reports citing PVO senior officers in 2010 indicated that 40N6 range may be a great as 240 nautical miles, and the missile completed State Trials (Russian OpEval) in 2010, and was to enter production. To date no images of the 40N6 missile, launcher container or TEL have been made public.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Oct 2016 11:14

S-400 has 4 missile all 4 of them have anti-aircraft/anticruise missile and ABM capability

9M96E and E2 two missile with range of 40 km and 120 km , capable of intercepting BM with a range of 1000-1200 km SRBM/MRBM types , guidance Active Radar Homing/HTK ( http://pvo.guns.ru/book/fakel/new_gen.htm )
48N6E3 Range 250 km , altitude 30 km , capable of intercepting BM target flying at max speed of 4800 km/sec corresponding to BM range of 3000 km IRBM , guidance type Seeker Aided Ground Guidance (SAGG)
40N6 Range 400 km , altitude 185 km , capable of intercepting BM with range of 3000-3500 km ,guidance Semi-Active+Active Radar Homing

48N6E3 and 40N6 are hypersonic missile their top speed is Mach 6 + and average speed is above Mach 5 , 9M96E and E2 average speed is 900-1000 m/sec or Mach 2.6 - 2.9

Check link
9M96 missile http://pvo.guns.ru/book/fakel/new_gen.htm
S-400 http://bastion-karpenko.ru/S-400/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Oct 2016 11:40

Singha wrote:S500 under development and will feature "true" HTK next gen ABM interceptors and new large LRSAM missiles while keeping the 96 and 96E MRSAMs, also updated radars and EW

S-500 and 400 have nothing in common , its a new system developed with new missile and X band AESA but objective are similar which is to hit all type of target from Air Breathing to ICBM type like S-400 does for Air Breathing to IRBM types.

You can read up on my write up on S-500 , I have quoted Ru MOD and Almaz Antey on the program then give an opinion , you should get an idea what S-500 is http://austinstalk.blogspot.in/2016/05/ ... ystem.html

Nudal is a dedicated ABM mobile system under development

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Oct 2016 13:04

More in the Strat Indo-Ru td.

This report has other def. decisions passed other than the S-400s.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/m ... elatedNews

NEW DELHI, December 18, 2015
Updated: December 18, 2015 02:41 IST
Rs.40,000-cr. defence deal gets nod

Contract likely to be the highlight of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Russia next week

A defence deal potentially worth Rs. 40,000 crore, one of the biggest of its kind to be approved by the Modi government, could be the highlight of Prime Minister’s visit to Russia beginning next week. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Thursday cleared the purchase of five S-400 Triumf long-range air defence systems from Russia.

This issue is likely to be discussed during Mr. Modi’s talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin. In addition to this, the DAC also cleared six proposals worth about Rs. 26,000 crore.

Mr. Modi government has been leveraging defence deals to reach out and further strategic cooperation with other nations. During his visit to France last year, he surprised everyone with the announcement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. Recently, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave the final approval for the purchase of Apache and Chinook helicopters from the U.S. worth over $2.5 billion, in addition to other deals in the pipeline.

“The S-400 missiles will enhance the national air defence capability and will help in warding off threats from long ranges,” a senior Defence Ministry official said. He said the “exact cost would be negotiated during the procurement process.”

In other decisions, the DAC cleared the procurement of six additional Pinaka Multi-Barrel Rocket Launch Systems (MRLS) for Rs.14,600 to be jointly built by Tata Power Company Ltd (TPCL), Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Bharat Earth Movers Ltd (BEML). Officials said that Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), which developed the system, had been asked to continue development of newer systems to meet future requirements as Pinaka has proven its mettle.

The Army will also get 571 light bullet-proof vehicles to be used in counter-insurgency operations for Rs.310 crore, 120 trawls for T-72 and T-90 tanks for Rs.50 crore and two electronic warfare systems costing Rs.425 crore for the mountains to be developed by DRDO and produced by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).

For the Navy, change in categorisation has been accorded for five fleet support ships, the proposal for which was cleared in July last year.

Hindustan Shipyard Limited is the designated shipyard to build them with foreign assistance of Rs.9,000 crore and these ships will be larger than the Deepak class tankers in service with on-board workshops.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Oct 2016 18:06

Finally, some good news on the Pinaka.

The induction of this system seems to have been stuck somewhere in spite of the user wanting it as of yesterday.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Oct 2016 14:01

On Defence side Ka-226 Manufacturing at HAL , 4 x 1135.6 Frigate and S-400 deal has been signed as part of Indi-Russian IGA

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 15 Oct 2016 18:26

Is it six system or regiment of pinaka? This is a good order if for regiments. This should increase our holding of pinaka to double right?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Oct 2016 18:31

Austin wrote:On Defence side Ka-226 Manufacturing at HAL , 4 x 1135.6 Frigate and S-400 deal has been signed as part of Indi-Russian IGA

Let's hope if goes to pvt shipyard like L&T Kattupalli. Apart from smaller ships and modernizing subs, they didn't get any big orders so far. To increase the ship building capacity, need to bring them on-board.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2016 18:46

rohitvats wrote:Finally, some good news on the Pinaka.

The induction of this system seems to have been stuck somewhere in spite of the user wanting it as of yesterday.

OFB ammo screw ups. Nothing new.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Oct 2016 20:22

No newj on pakfa,fgfa front???

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Oct 2016 00:55

It is not clear as to what are total orders for Pinaka 1 & 2 MBRL. Initially 2 Regiments were ordered, thereafter 6+2+2 Regiments have been ordered or is it 2+2 additional Regiments or only 2 ??

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 16 Oct 2016 07:48

K Mehta wrote:Is it six system or regiment of pinaka? This is a good order if for regiments. This should increase our holding of pinaka to double right?

The story Philip quoted above is dated December 2015. A lt of water has flown down the Ganga since then.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 16 Oct 2016 08:09

India, Russia ink pacts that will lead to defence deals worth Rs 72,000 crore

The $4 billion pact for the four 4,000-tonne guided-missile stealth frigates also has some strategic content to it though it is not acknowledged in public. India's quest to lease a second nuclear-powered submarine (the first INS Chakra came in 2012) for around $1.5 billion from Russia has been linked by Moscow to New Delhi's agreement to acquire the frigates lying half-constructed at the Yantar Shipyard due to a cash-crunch.

India will also have to acquire Zorya gas-turbine engines for the frigates from Ukraine, which is bitterly opposed to Russia as of now. "While two of the frigates will come from Russia, with a faster delivery time, the other two will be built here. It will take time for the contract with the selected Indian shipyard to be finalized," said a source.

As for the Kamov-226T choppers, the IGA for it was inked during Modi's visit to Moscow in December last year. It's only now the joint venture for the project, with the memorandum of association, share-holders agreement and the like, has been inked between defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (with majority 50.5% stake) and Russian Rostec State Corporation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Oct 2016 09:51

S-400 TEL

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Oct 2016 09:54

Seems like we are buying 5 systems or 5 Regiments of S-400 , Some good info on composition of regiment and S-400 system as a whole

http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/a2ad-thr ... t-in-2016/

One S-400 regiment is divided into two battalions. Each battalion consists of eight launchers and 32 missiles in addition to acquisition and engagement radar systems and a command post.

One of the S-400’s new missiles is the so-called 40N6 SAM with an estimated operational range of 400 kilometers (248.5 miles) and an altitude of up to 185 kilometers (607,000 feet). The missile is reportedly capable of exo-atmospheric interception of intermediate-range ballistic missile warheads in their terminal phase. However, it is unclear whether the weapon is operational in Russia yet and no images of the 40N6 SAM have surfaced so far.

The S-400 is also armed with an improved variant of the 48N6E2 with an alleged range of 250 kilometers (160 miles). The air defense system can also fire two additional missiles, the 9M96E and 9M96E2 with respective ranges of 40 km (25 miles) and 120 km (75 miles). Improved S-300 air defense systems such as the S-300PMU-2 Favorite (sold to Iran), can purportedly also fire the 9M96E and 9M96E2.

The S-400 can purportedly fire missiles at a rate 2.5 times faster than its predecessor, the S-300. It can engage stand-off jammer aircraft, Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, and both ballistic and cruise missiles in an electronic countermeasures environment.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Oct 2016 15:55

Just wondering. WTF are WE bailing out the Russian arms industry time and again when the the Russian economy is in DEEP doo-doo and they in turn , take our money, shaft us, and then turn around and SELL stuff developed based on our money to everyone, including Chinese.

Case in point the Ka-226 T and the Grigorovich class frigates recently signed with Russia

Ka 266T - The grand total of ALL Ka 266 class airframes (including its progenitors the Ka 26 and Ka 266 ) is a GRAND TOTAL of LESS THAN 100 for the past 25 years! The Ka 226 T is the Turbomeca version of that ,of which hardly any are in production and proven . WE will be the guinea pigs who will order TWICE the number of airframes as they currently are in existence and then debug the 226T model. And this is when the HAL - LUH is soon entering production . Why NOT order our own airframes (which is a more recent design) and also use our own paid for engine (The Ardiden, in common with the Dhruv) and build 600 airframes that are required. WHY ARE WE BAILING out KAMOV ? This Ka 266 is a dead airframe, and will see NO sales, but for the 200 Indian order.

Grigorovich Class :Russia doesnt have the engines for this, thanks to the Ukraine conflict. They have to SELL it to someone. We are the suckers. The Ukrainian engines are available to us , so we snap it up! And this when entire shipyards in in India have MASSIVE debt and are reeling in bankruptcy and restructuring . Why not send the 4 new build orders to them. Okay, but the two completed ones if you want for hull /scrap value, but why give new build orders to Yantar! Where are we bailing out the Russian Shipyard ? Also, the Zorya Gas Turbines are not something we want to be dependent on the long term given how uncertain Ukraine is.

We did the same thing with the massive Su-30 order in the early 90s and that resurrected the Soviet/Russian aircraft industry. They paid us back by selling versions of the Flanker to China in massive quantities, including full tech transfer. Now why are we repeating the SAME mistake.

This time, in exchange for the massive Rs 80,000 crore order bailing out a who host of industries,they pay us back by flirting with the Pakis and being brazen about it ?

We are HUGE SUCKERS . That is why the Russians get away with this. We have far better frigates (Shivalik class follow ons). Make more of them in the shipyards that we have that are lying idle. Why buy Russian ? Same with helicopter. We have a great LUH that has a great single engine (Far lower operating costs than a 2 engine). We have full rights on that engine, we have a great Dhruv derived airframe and architecture. We have the glass cockpit and everything from Dhruv. Why are we buying a failed/dead airframe and shooting our own products in the foot ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2016 16:30

as I mentioned even the S400 is a ransom payment, not a real military decision....the useful missiles of its portfolio which is the 9M96 maxes out to 120km which is same as the army version of the Barak8. atleast with Barak8 we do make some parts and will get some benefit from its radar and c3i system though not as much as Akash.

in college we know how a guy throwing money at a girl to maker her 'love' him fares...the girl takes money and treats from ALL such rich lovelorn guys and finally marries a older NRI

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Oct 2016 17:27

vina wrote:
Ka 266T - The grand total of ALL Ka 266 class airframes (including its progenitors the Ka 26 and Ka 266 ) is a GRAND TOTAL of LESS THAN 100 for the past 25 years! The Ka 226 T is the Turbomeca version of that ,of which hardly any are in production and proven . WE will be the guinea pigs who will order TWICE the number of airframes as they currently are in existence and then debug the 226T model. And this is when the HAL - LUH is soon entering production . Why NOT order our own airframes (which is a more recent design) and also use our own paid for engine (The Ardiden, in common with the Dhruv) and build 600 airframes that are required. WHY ARE WE BAILING out KAMOV ? This Ka 266 is a dead airframe, and will see NO sales, but for the 200 Indian order.

Can you please tell me what is the meaning of 'HAL - LUH is soon entering production'? LUH has just had its first flight and going by HAL history of ALH and LCH which took 8 to 10 years from first flight to production, LUH is still many years away from production. The necessity for this type of helicopters is of yesterdays and not tomorrows. If its not bought we keep complaining that gov is making Armed forces to use unsafe equipment and now this. Maybe we could have started with lesser no initially and bought more based on LUH availability but also there will be a MOQ for MII justification.

vina wrote:Grigorovich Class :Russia doesnt have the engines for this, thanks to the Ukraine conflict. They have to SELL it to someone. We are the suckers. The Ukrainian engines are available to us , so we snap it up! And this when entire shipyards in in India have MASSIVE debt and are reeling in bankruptcy and restructuring . Why not send the 4 new build orders to them. Okay, but the two completed ones if you want for hull /scrap value, but why give new build orders to Yantar! Where are we bailing out the Russian Shipyard ? Also, the Zorya Gas Turbines are not something we want to be dependent on the long term given how uncertain Ukraine is.

We are HUGE SUCKERS[/b] . That is why the Russians get away with this. We have far better frigates (Shivalik class follow ons). Make more of them in the shipyards that we have that are lying idle. Why buy Russian ? Same with helicopter. We have a great LUH that has a great single engine (Far lower operating costs than a 2 engine). We have full rights on that engine, we have a great Dhruv derived airframe and architecture. We have the glass cockpit and everything from Dhruv. Why are we buying a failed/dead airframe and shooting our own products in the foot ?

Shivalik class followups are still in the drawing board. we should have ordered more Shivalik class and not stopped with just 3. But still there was talk of followup Talwar class since the delivery of the second batch. In this order too if you read the reports properly 2 almost complete ones will be completed and delivered to us and the other 2 will be completed in India maybe by a private yard. Before taking about the struggling Indian shipyards please tell me what happened to the patrol vessel and research vessel orders given to these yards. Please note none of the private yards were build only relying on or on any assurance of defense orders. Naval ships cost 1000s of crores and do you think the Navy will take risks with the limited resources it has? For the Russian ships in question here most of the Items including the engines could be ready but the construction stopped/delayed due to war and atleast two of it can join the navy sooner. The other two to be completed in the Indian yard can provide with much needed experience

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Oct 2016 17:39

Singha wrote:as I mentioned even the S400 is a ransom payment, not a real military decision....the useful missiles of its portfolio which is the 9M96 maxes out to 120km which is same as the army version of the Barak8. atleast with Barak8 we do make some parts and will get some benefit from its radar and c3i system though not as much as Akash.

in college we know how a guy throwing money at a girl to maker her 'love' him fares...the girl takes money and treats from ALL such rich lovelorn guys and finally marries a older NRI

This Ka 266T will be to Modi what the Westland helicopter deal was to Rajiv Gandhi. Atleast in Rajiv Gandhi's defence, that was linked to (a paltry 45 m pound ) aid from UK , here, we are paying through our nose, while at the same time hitting a domestic product in it's knees.

I simply cant believe that we are going to hand over Rs 80,000 crore to the Russians for products that we already have! Definitely the Shivaliks and the LUH are clearly better than the Russia frigate the the Ka 226.

If at all there is any justification, probably the S-400 is all we should have got. The other two I simply cannot believe.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Oct 2016 17:45

Ah the politics of it, finally opposition has something to beat Modi with

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Oct 2016 18:04

Russia and India will jointly develop a fifth-generation aircraft T-50 - Putin
10.16.2016 15:10:15

Goa. 16 October. INTERFAX - Russia will work together with India over the plane of the fifth-generation T-50 and will be engaged in the improvement of the missile system "Brahmos", said Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"We will work together on a fifth-generation aircraft we have already raised it in the air, but there is still a lot of work It is a known aircraft -.. T-50", - he told reporters.

According to him, Russia will deal with the increase in range missile systems, "BrahMos". "We will improve the system of the missile" Brahmos "We will do its land, air and sea-based We have agreed that we will work to increase the range of systems of air and sea-based..", - Said Vladimir Putin.

http://militarynews.ru/story.asp%3Frid% ... d%3D429470

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Oct 2016 18:06

seems like the range increase wrt to Brahmos is post MTCR effect , We would see a 600 km range Brahmos for air and sea based system that DRDO has once presented with a flight profile altitude of 18km and range of 600 km plus

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 16 Oct 2016 18:35

It is the cost of strategic partnership, it is all about quid pro quo.

In the past Indo-Russian defence deals where buyer-seller, and then license production, and to a certain degree joint production with Brahmos.

But now, it is all MII, joint production and responsibility. This is the way to keep Russia engaged. Slowly the number of items is reducing.

Ka-226 albeit a LUH, is a different design, it seems to be have more versatile configuration, common engine in Turbomeca. So in all once it is produced in India, it will be easier to indigenise rest of the parts. when HAL LUH comes in production it will be another feather in HAL/India cap. 2 products better than one. Nothing is killed there is demand for 100s, it will keep India busy, and also help us exporting it to other countries. Products made with foreign collaboration, even when it has some gliches, when exported does not get that much bad press as what Dhruv had with Ethopia.

Same is the case for other products. India is currently paying for the neglect of R&D and MIC. Next 10 years will require focus and spending this kind of money on acquiring technology and production capability, whether it is KA-226,F-1X/Gripen etc. India will be looking to spend close to $200 billion, fortunately India economy is strong enough to absorb this cost and benefit from this expenditure.

I welcome this deal.

on the politics of it, kangress has more shady deals, if they try to investigate they are going to hit themselves.
http://idrw.org/pac-set-to-scrutinise-d ... dia-deals/

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Oct 2016 18:51

vina wrote:
Singha wrote:as I mentioned even the S400 is a ransom payment, not a real military decision....the useful missiles of its portfolio which is the 9M96 maxes out to 120km which is same as the army version of the Barak8. atleast with Barak8 we do make some parts and will get some benefit from its radar and c3i system though not as much as Akash.

in college we know how a guy throwing money at a girl to maker her 'love' him fares...the girl takes money and treats from ALL such rich lovelorn guys and finally marries a older NRI
This Ka 266T will be to Modi what the Westland helicopter deal was to Rajiv Gandhi. Atleast in Rajiv Gandhi's defence, that was linked to (a paltry 45 m pound ) aid from UK , here, we are paying through our nose, while at the same time hitting a domestic product in it's knees.

BTW have the Russians ever been caught in a bribery scandal? I can't think of any instance, meanwhile half the euro companies & others have been blacklisted or have had allegations leveled at one point or the other. Smooth operators.

I simply cant believe that we are going to hand over Rs 80,000 crore to the Russians for products that we already have! Definitely the Shivaliks and the LUH are clearly better than the Russia frigate the the Ka 226.

If at all there is any justification, probably the S-400 is all we should have got. The other two I simply cannot believe.

The PAKFA will be many times more expensive and we probably wont even be getting any fighters for the another 8-10 years.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Oct 2016 19:27

The Russian deal is to plug immediate/future gaps. This is similar to our search for another single engine plane being sought even when LCA production has started.

1. Existing gaps because of procurement delays of the past
2. China expanding rapidly. i.e The gap will expand further if nothing is done immediately
3. Domestic product roll out / production slow and not in a position to narrow the gap within any reasonable time.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Oct 2016 20:06

The S-400 deal is a v.strong signal to the world that Russia will provide India with whatever it ants to defend itself.The idea of outside nations actively joining India in a war with China or Pak or both together is highly unrealistic,but Russia would give India the weaponry with which to win,at least not lose to China.Hence,Akula SSGNs,N-sub tech,FGFAs,S-400s -which give us a great ABM system which will further be enhanced by integrating our SAMs when developed,diesel subs,warships,advanced versions of BMos,etc.etc.

No other nation on the planet has provided us with such cutting edge tech involving strike capability. The French and Israelis with fighter aircraft and missiles,AWACS/EW systems,etc.,next the US with logistic mil aircraft,etc.,but precious little in systems that hurt.In fact Pak has been the recipient of US F-16s,attack helos,Harpoon missiles,Orions,TOW,etc.all offensive weapons to be used against India!

Russia will continue for decades to be our principal source for cutting edge mil tech with more JV projects in the future.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 16 Oct 2016 20:34

Vijainder K Thakur ‏@vkthakur
S-400 has open architecture. Could eventually integrate radar & interceptor elements of DRDO BMD

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Oct 2016 20:47

Karthik S wrote:
Vijainder K Thakur ‏@vkthakur
S-400 has open architecture. Could eventually integrate radar & interceptor elements of DRDO BMD

That is what my understanding also is, that the S400 purchase involves the ability to integrate with DRDO BMD + GSAT early warning infra red sensors + any future radar AD growth. The weak point has always been quick reacting, fast acceleration SAMs and the S400 missile family will plug that gap. That is why sometime ago there was that article, do not know how accurate, that indicated that India could buy 6000 missiles along with the system.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Oct 2016 20:56

ragupta wrote:Ka-226 albeit a LUH, is a different design, it seems to be have more versatile configuration, common engine in Turbomeca. So in all once it is produced in India, it will be easier to indigenise rest of the parts.

No one has bought this Ka-226 animal. It is a dog, and didn't sell . It is a different model Turbomeca engine that what we have for the Dhruv, /LUH and the Cheetahs/ Chetaks. It will require a different line.

when HAL LUH comes in production it will be another feather in HAL/India cap. 2 products better than one. Nothing is killed there is demand for 100s, it will keep India busy, and also help us exporting it to other countries. Products made with foreign collaboration, even when it has some gliches, when exported does not get that much bad press as what Dhruv had with Ethopia.

Yeah.. Yeah. This sounds like a scam to me. Forget about the Ka 226 getting exported from here. It simply wont. First, no one else will buy it and second, unlike the F16, the Russians are not TRANSFERRING the line. It is going to be be built in Tumkur, the in the same plant that HAL is setting up for LUH (which Modi cut the ribbon for earlier this year). The manufacturing of this will happen side by side with LUH.

I welcome this deal.

Looks very shady to me.

on the politics of it, kangress has more shady deals, if they try to investigate they are going to hit themselves.
http://idrw.org/pac-set-to-scrutinise-d ... dia-deals/

That is no excuse.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Oct 2016 21:29

Vina is right, none of the deals make sense. If the only explanation is that Congress also used to do it, then let's make Pappu PM, atleast he is funny.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 Oct 2016 22:15

Gyan wrote:Vina is right, none of the deals make sense. If the only explanation is that Congress also used to do it, then let's make Pappu PM, atleast he is funny.

I have to agree with you and Vina here.

But the explanation is a fiction same as the concern/question/whatever.. by vina.. (personal opinion=fiction/opinion)

Lets see the facts:

- How many LUH are needed by IA/ IAF today? put numbers not your emotion!!!
--- approx 500 minimum
- Next 10 years
--- approx 1500 minimum

Vina & Gyan, please answer by when can we have 1000 HAL LUH ? which year? 2020? 2030? and how? (and what should IA/IAF do till then ?)
(and please when you answer look at ALH story and numbers vs years)

We needed there 500 LUH 5 years back!!!!

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 Oct 2016 22:18

Gyan wrote:Vina is right, none of the deals make sense. If the only explanation is that Congress also used to do it, then let's make Pappu PM, atleast he is funny.

Gyan which deal does not make sense and how?

And how does Pappu being funny is relevant?

we needed LUH 10 years back!!!

Total requirement is like 1000+ as of date.

We do not have a single production ready LUH today!!

so what should we do?

As per Vina and Gyan lets only have HAL LUH.... but by when we have adequate numbers will be like 20 years and by then 100+ causalities will take place minimum because of obsolete equipment but we have 2nd largest population some people die does not matter, why because Vina and Gyan are not flying obsolete equipment but they are like PAPPU commenting on importance of something without knowing the operational needs....!!!

Vina and Gyan why are we buying Apache when we have LCH? ???

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Oct 2016 22:26

vina wrote:
ragupta wrote:Ka-226 albeit a LUH, is a different design, it seems to be have more versatile configuration, common engine in Turbomeca. So in all once it is produced in India, it will be easier to indigenise rest of the parts.
No one has bought this Ka-226 animal. It is a dog, and didn't sell . It is a different model Turbomeca engine that what we have for the Dhruv, /LUH and the Cheetahs/ Chetaks. It will require a different line.

when HAL LUH comes in production it will be another feather in HAL/India cap. 2 products better than one. Nothing is killed there is demand for 100s, it will keep India busy, and also help us exporting it to other countries. Products made with foreign collaboration, even when it has some gliches, when exported does not get that much bad press as what Dhruv had with Ethopia.
Yeah.. Yeah. This sounds like a scam to me. Forget about the Ka 226 getting exported from here. It simply wont. First, no one else will buy it and second, unlike the F16, the Russians are not TRANSFERRING the line. It is going to be be built in Tumkur, the in the same plant that HAL is setting up for LUH (which Modi cut the ribbon for earlier this year). The manufacturing of this will happen side by side with LUH.

I welcome this deal.
Looks very shady to me.

on the politics of it, kangress has more shady deals, if they try to investigate they are going to hit themselves.
http://idrw.org/pac-set-to-scrutinise-d ... dia-deals/
That is no excuse.

If nobody has bought something doesn't make it a bad product, KA-226 had gone through the trials of our armed forces and they have cleared it. Can you please tell me when LUH will be ready? It has just completed its first flight. Please understand the requirement is of yesterdays. LCH which is another version of ALH is still under testing after its first flight in 2010 and still a year or two from production.

What is the point of calling it a Dog? A Dog is much better than a humans.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Oct 2016 22:59

Any immediate needs can be fulfilled by additional ALH, upgraded cheetah and Chetak. What is the per annum hours ALH fleet is being used? Underuse of C-17, BBJ, Embraer, Avro, Dornier is well reported. The requirement of Ka-226 seems to be artificially created. KA-226T is just an underpowered ALH.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 Oct 2016 23:07

Gyan wrote:Any immediate needs can be fulfilled by additional ALH, upgraded cheetah and Chetak. What is the per annum hours ALH fleet is being used? Underuse of C-17, BBJ, Embraer, Avro, Dornier is well reported. The requirement of Ka-226 seems to be artificially created. KA-226T is just an underpowered ALH.

Hello!!! we are not able to produce ALH/Rudhra/LCH at the rate desired ... adding more years is like saying PAPPU is destined to rule india just give he some time!!!

Having IA/IAF pilots killed is ok but dont address the situation!!! PAPPU could have made 1000 LUH fly in 1 year, just by being PAPPU!!!