Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

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Kakarat
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kakarat » 28 May 2018 21:31

US sanctions now could help us indigenise more systems especially kaveri engine with or without french help. But if sanctions are going to happen it should happen soon so that we will be able to switch to an European engine for Tejas MKII from at least the second PV or else the program might get delayed. Sanctions also means no Apache, chinook, M777 or additional P8i and we will be going to other sources mostly Russian which the US might not want

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2018 22:07

Kakarat-ji, let them do it. Go ahead and do it :)

What does the S-400 purchase got to do with armed drones :?:

Our purchases are now to be dictated by Uncle Sam, in the name of interoperability? :lol:

To the risk-assessors on this forum who stated that BRF was being narrow-minded by not seeing the value of an Indo-US strategic partnership, this latest move makes the US narrow-minded, no?

On what basis and on what *TRUST* should we in good faith acquire the F-16 or F-18 or any future American platform?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 28 May 2018 22:09

Austin wrote:Vishnu Som
‏Verified account
@VishnuNDTV
Following Following @VishnuNDTV https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 0961433600
US transfer of high-tech military equipment to India could be hit by India closing out a deal to buy Russian S-400 missile systems: William Thornberry Chairman of the US Arms Service Committee.

2. Transfer of US armed drones to India could be impacted by India's decision to acquire Russian S-400 missile systems from Russia: William Thornberry Chairman of the US Arms Service Committee

3. While sanctions against India for the purchase of the Russian S-400 system may not happen (US laws allow case by case flexibility), there is deep concern at the decision to acquire the system: William Thornberry Chairman of the US Arms Service Committee :!:

4. Background - the US passed CAATSA (Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act) earlier this year after allegations of Russian meddling in the US election process. The US could technically place sanctions on India for buying new systems from Russia.

5. Earlier this month, PM Modi was in Sochi, Russia where both sides agreed on a Rs.40,000 crore deal for the advanced S400 system. Formal announcement of the deal will likely happen ahead of the next Russia-India later summit this year.


I wonder in which Parallel Universe does William Thornberry live in :?:

India can get Armed drones from Israel if it wants to or even Europe .... US did not provide any Technology till date , Even Technology for Javelin was denied , During MMRCA US refused to provide source code unlike other vendors in the game , All what it was willing to transfer for some module to integrate weapons without giving us access to source code.

Today US will sanction on CAATSA , Tommorow they might sanction us because they dont like us dealing with Iran or Venezeula or some other day because we dont toe their line on China or some other foreign policy issue .... Look at how EU countries supposedly their close ally is being sanctioned for not toeing US lines on JCPOA an agreement that US Government agreed to and now DT wants to come out just because of his personal disliking .......Look at Turkey so call NATO Allay is being denied F-35 because they purchase S-400

This should be an eye opener to GOI not only is it restricting buying weapons from some country but it is trying to infulence Indias Independent foreign policy , Today Sushma Swaraj made it clear that it wont follow US sanctions on JCPOA

India says it only follows U.N. sanctions, not U.S. sanctions on Iran

Its time US Congress understand that includes Rep and Democrats who have bipartisan supported Sanctions that we are no poodle of them and their extra national sanction regime would get equally tough response from India.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kakarat » 28 May 2018 22:46

Rakesh wrote:Kakarat-ji, let them do it. Go ahead and do it :)

Admiral no ji please just Kakarat



This good news, now let us go and order S-400 and see what US does

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kakarat » 29 May 2018 00:44

US May Block Sale Of Armed Drones As India Is Buying Arms From Russia

India maintains a close military relationship with both the United States and Russia but it is Russia which has provided the bulk of India's military weapons systems over several decades. Earlier this year, the United States passed the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) against Russia for allegedly getting involved in the US election process. This means that the United States could technically place sanctions even on close partner nations such as India for acquiring Russian weaponry.

However, Mr Thornberry has pointed out that while the US is disappointed with India's new military acquisition from Russia, sanctions against New Delhi were unlikely at the present stage. Neither will there be an India-specific exemption to CAATSA. "In the legislation that passed the house just last Thursday, there was additional flexibility in the law for nations that have historical ties and thus Russian equipment" said Mr Thornberry who added that "there will be some additional flexibility that will not just be limited to India but there are other countries that fall into that category".


First it was the Trump administrations hands are tied if India buys russian then sanctions, then drama of asking for India specific exemptions and now this as India moves ahead with the deal

As it is i don't think there is any use for armed Predator drones

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 29 May 2018 10:38

Manu Pubby
‏Verified account @manupubby

Acquisition of Russian S-400 by India will curb military cooperation: US.

Air defence system will inhibit ability of militaries to operate together, says US House Armed Services Committee

Image

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 29 May 2018 10:42

Why should buying S-400 would complicate the ability of interoperability ? What has the two got to do with each other ?

How did US and Indian armed forces Navy and IAF interoperate in all the exercises we did with US and other navies ?

How is that buying French & Israel system would not affect the same interoperability ? How about existing system that IAF/IN/Army operates does it affect interoperability ?

We are not a NATO country to follow any US standards , We have our own one to ineroperate among Indian Armed forces

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 29 May 2018 11:10

Typically Turkey is facing same issue with US threatening sale of F-35

Turkey threatens retaliation if new bill stops F-35 sale

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby wig » 31 May 2018 09:35

Ukraine says kickbacks worth Rs 17.5 crore to Ministry of Defence officials, asks for help

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... p-5197944/
excerpts

Ukraine is investigating alleged kickbacks to the tune of $2.6 million (Rs 17.55 crore) in India’s purchase of spares for military transport aircraft An-32 in which its Anti-Corruption Bureau suspects the involvement of Indian Defence Ministry officials.

On February 13, this year, according to records accessed by The Indian Express, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NAB) sent a “request for international legal assistance” to the Ministry of Home Affairs via the Indian envoy in Kiev. This sought identification of the Defence Ministry officials who participated in the negotiations, development, signing and implementation of the contract.

The NAB’s suspicion, records show, stems from the fact that nearly 11 months after Ukrainian state-run Spetstechnoexport signed the agreement with Ministry of Defence (Air Force Headquarters) on November 26, 2014 for supply of spares to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Spetstechnoexport signed another pact with a little-known Global Marketing SP Ltd for its implementation.

“Despite the fact that the Ukraine alleges 17.5-cr kickbacks to MoD officials, asks India for help terms of the agreement had not been actually fulfilled, the parties signed statements of completion whereupon Spetstechnoexport transferred $2.6 million of budget funds to the account of Global Marketing opened in the UAE,” wrote the Chief Unit of Detectives of the NAB.




and the funds seem to have been routed through some Dubai bank

The NAB has sought information, among others, on the involvement of Global Marketing in the “conclusion and/or implementation of the contract”; contacts, if any, between defence ministry officials with Global Marketing’s representatives; factors that influenced the “timeliness and completeness of payments”; and, Global Marketing’s involvement in the signing of “supplementary agreements”.

Parallely, it has also written to Noor Islamic Bank in Dubai to provide information about the movement of funds between August 2015 and January 2018 from Global Marketing’s account as well as details of IP addresses from which the said account was accessed.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby kit » 31 May 2018 09:57

Kakarat wrote:US May Block Sale Of Armed Drones As India Is Buying Arms From Russia

India maintains a close military relationship with both the United States and Russia but it is Russia which has provided the bulk of India's military weapons systems over several decades. Earlier this year, the United States passed the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) against Russia for allegedly getting involved in the US election process. This means that the United States could technically place sanctions even on close partner nations such as India for acquiring Russian weaponry.

However, Mr Thornberry has pointed out that while the US is disappointed with India's new military acquisition from Russia, sanctions against New Delhi were unlikely at the present stage. Neither will there be an India-specific exemption to CAATSA. "In the legislation that passed the house just last Thursday, there was additional flexibility in the law for nations that have historical ties and thus Russian equipment" said Mr Thornberry who added that "there will be some additional flexibility that will not just be limited to India but there are other countries that fall into that category".


First it was the Trump administrations hands are tied if India buys russian then sanctions, then drama of asking for India specific exemptions and now this as India moves ahead with the deal

As it is i don't think there is any use for armed Predator drones


The Rustom 2 trials seems going well .. whats Israels issue with selling India armed Herons

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Falijee » 01 Jun 2018 17:29

From a Paki Sarkari Paper !

Russia may sell S 400 Missile Defence System to Pakistan despite Indian objection: Report

NEW DELHI - The Indian defence ministry’s view is that Russia , which has already sold the S - 400 Missile Defence system to China, could also sell it to Pakistan, if India reneges on the deal at this stage.In the past decade, Russian RD-93 engines were supplied to Pakistan through the China route for JF-17 fighters despite objections in writing from India .
India will push ahead with its deal to buy the S-400 air defence systems from Russia despite opposition from the US, defence ministry officials said on condition of anonymity.
According to them, the defence ministry will approach the apex Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for approval to purchase five units of Russian S-400 air defence systems.
They added that the ministry has received no instructions as of now to stall the contract in the wake of the US red-flagging the $5.5 billion deal.
The Trump administration has warned India of the consequences of this purchase from Russia and said it could curtail military cooperation with the United States.
The officials said the CCS headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi will take the final decision now that both the countries have completed negotiations to close the deal.
The officials said that New Delhi has already used back channels to explain India’s concerns and the need for a strong air defence system given the neighbourhood. The Indian Air Force (IAF), given the advance aerial capabilities of China and Pakistan, needs the S-400 to protect its air bases.
Prime Minister Modi’s National Security Advisor Ajit Doval ia believed to have made made quiet calls to both the White House and the Kremlin to convince both the countries that India is too big a nation to belong to any camp and that it takes all decisions in its own national interest. :D

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Jun 2018 20:55

kit wrote:The Rustom 2 trials seems going well .. whats Israels issue with selling India armed Herons


American pressure

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby chola » 01 Jun 2018 21:11

Falijee wrote:From a Paki Sarkari Paper !

Russia may sell S 400 Missile Defence System to Pakistan despite Indian objection: Report

NEW DELHI - The Indian defence ministry’s view is that Russia , which has already sold the S - 400 Missile Defence system to China, could also sell it to Pakistan, if India reneges on the deal at this stage.In the past decade, Russian RD-93 engines were supplied to Pakistan through the China route for JF-17 fighters despite objections in writing from India .
India will push ahead with its deal to buy the S-400 air defence systems from Russia despite opposition from the US, defence ministry officials said on condition of anonymity.
According to them, the defence ministry will approach the apex Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for approval to purchase five units of Russian S-400 air defence systems.
They added that the ministry has received no instructions as of now to stall the contract in the wake of the US red-flagging the $5.5 billion deal.
The Trump administration has warned India of the consequences of this purchase from Russia and said it could curtail military cooperation with the United States.
The officials said the CCS headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi will take the final decision now that both the countries have completed negotiations to close the deal.
The officials said that New Delhi has already used back channels to explain India’s concerns and the need for a strong air defence system given the neighbourhood. The Indian Air Force (IAF), given the advance aerial capabilities of China and Pakistan, needs the S-400 to protect its air bases.
Prime Minister Modi’s National Security Advisor Ajit Doval ia believed to have made made quiet calls to both the White House and the Kremlin to convince both the countries that India is too big a nation to belong to any camp and that it takes all decisions in its own national interest. :D


Time to tell the Russkies to go to hell. If it is between the US and Russia, you want the one with better stuff and whose geo-strategic objectives align more with ours.

We gave it a good game balancing sides but at some point things will tilt one way or another and balancing no longer works.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Jun 2018 21:25

Times of Islamabad :rotfl:

They look credible source after headlines like this
https://timesofislamabad.com/23-Mar-201 ... dia-report

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby nam » 01 Jun 2018 21:29

chola wrote:
We gave it a good game balancing sides but at some point things will tilt one way or another and balancing no longer works.


The beggars on the western borders won't be able to afford it and Russia will not give a system like S400 for free. It is the usual Pak wet dream.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 02 Jun 2018 05:55

DRDO will thank the US for their graciousness.

2. Transfer of US armed drones to India could be impacted by India's decision to acquire Russian S-400 missile systems from Russia: William Thornberry Chairman of the US Arms Service Committee


So, the Rustom which was at threat of reduced orders as IAF went "phoren" will again, become the primary game in town. :lol:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 02 Jun 2018 06:40

go go go with S-400, bring on cexy (non-aligned) back

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby kit » 02 Jun 2018 15:41

Lalmohan wrote:
kit wrote:The Rustom 2 trials seems going well .. whats Israels issue with selling India armed Herons


American pressure



Exactly ., the way americans and chinese behave is to carve up different countries to their desire .. by pressure overt or subtle with a lot of psycological overtones.They do seem to collaborate well. I am not a big fan the american " Indo Pacific " naming thingie. Its bull st.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 02 Jun 2018 19:32



From a Paki paper so full of crap (the idea that Pakis can afford to buy anything as expensive as the S400 is laughable), but this is basically Russian propaganda/blackmailing/threats. They should be asked to take a hike, as this is not the way to treat or even negotiate with a strategic partner.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 02 Jun 2018 19:34

Cybaru wrote:go go go with S-400, bring on cexy (non-aligned) back


The S400 is bad news for the Indian mil-tech industry and local manufacturing, we badly need that dough injected into our own projects instead, and there is no reason why we cannot build a better system locally. Additionally the quantity/price is a really bad deal as we shell out a lot of money to protect a very small area (possibly just lutyens).

This is a bad deal for India irrespective of what is going on with America and Russia. It would be sad if American pressure worked as reverse psychology to make us gloss over the negatives and actually buy it.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 03 Jun 2018 08:27

This is the only Russian product that I support buying 100%. No iffs and butts.

We should show Middle finger to unkil on my uis one

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Jun 2018 09:56

Bart S wrote:
Cybaru wrote:go go go with S-400, bring on cexy (non-aligned) back


The S400 is bad news for the Indian mil-tech industry and local manufacturing, we badly need that dough injected into our own projects instead, and there is no reason why we cannot build a better system locally. Additionally the quantity/price is a really bad deal as we shell out a lot of money to protect a very small area (possibly just lutyens).

This is a bad deal for India irrespective of what is going on with America and Russia. It would be sad if American pressure worked as reverse psychology to make us gloss over the negatives and actually buy it.



XR-SAM system is a good 10 years from being operational. Won't make a difference.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sarang » 03 Jun 2018 11:51

Bart S wrote:


From a Paki paper so full of crap (the idea that Pakis can afford to buy anything as expensive as the S400 is laughable), but this is basically Russian propaganda/blackmailing/threats. They should be asked to take a hike, as this is not the way to treat or even negotiate with a strategic partner.


They have a communist mindset. they go lower than this.?
This is their normal way to handle things, internal or external.

The superpower blood is still pumping in vains.

Power corrupts mind.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 03 Jun 2018 17:39

Thakur_B wrote:XR-SAM system is a good 10 years from being operational. Won't make a difference.


Given that there is a list of pending customer deliveries including China, Turkey and existing Russian orders and we come after that in the pecking list, it will easily take 5-6 years for deliveries to take place and a further 2-3 years to operationalize the system, and develop training and deployment procedures etc. This would take a huge chunk of money out of our defence budget and defend only a tiny portion of the country. Would be better to invest in our own platforms, we could start with what we have, and build up the c4I and on the ground integration capabilities while the missing piece (long-range missiles) is being developed.

Katare wrote:This is the only Russian product that I support buying 100%. No iffs and butts.

We should show Middle finger to unkil on my uis one


Why? What is so special about it? And please don't say that it will let us shoot down Paki planes 300 km into their airspace etc, whether it actually can function like that is questionable, and it is anyway too small an order to be deployed on the border, plus if the IAF is in the air and hunting them with intent you can rest assured that their planes won't be flying anywhere near and will likely be parked in Saudi/Turkey/Iran away from the action so that they don't get destroyed.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 03 Jun 2018 20:32

Bart S wrote:
Cybaru wrote:go go go with S-400, bring on cexy (non-aligned) back


The S400 is bad news for the Indian mil-tech industry and local manufacturing, we badly need that dough injected into our own projects instead, and there is no reason why we cannot build a better system locally. Additionally the quantity/price is a really bad deal as we shell out a lot of money to protect a very small area (possibly just lutyens).

This is a bad deal for India irrespective of what is going on with America and Russia. It would be sad if American pressure worked as reverse psychology to make us gloss over the negatives and actually buy it.


I am all for S-400 but the deal is being negotiated badly Russians are exploiting GOI and have increased the costs drastically.

Originally plan called for 11 systems now it down 5 systems and no tech transfer either, there is also reports that deal will not include 48N6/40N6 to keep costs as is. But but it's being marketed as in future we can acquire these missiles snowballs chance in hell those missiles will be acquired in future given budget constraints. The minute Russians increased costs and refused tech transfer, we should have backed out rather keep negotiating which smells like desperation and Russians are going to clean the bank on thus deal.

So essentially we are getting a system that at the moment does exactly what MR-SAM does at three times the cost with no domestic equipment. Brilliant...

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 03 Jun 2018 20:51

S-400 system ( brigade ) can have multiple regiment and with many other system , A typical S-400 system in Russian AD will include

S-400 battery: shooting radar with its command post (92N6), up to 12 TEL units + search radar (usually 96L6)) - can be strengthen accodring to evaluations + decoys + cammo nets
S-400 regiment: (up to 8 S-400 batteries) + regimental command post (55K6) + regimental search radar (91N6) + ECM + Passive systems of detection + SHORADs + decoys + etc
S-400 brigade: (2 S-400 regiments) + brigade level command post (Baikal-1M) + SHORADs + decoys + ECM units + cammo nets + passive detection systems .. etc

ITs a huge system not even counting the reload option available with is 3x times We need to see indian specific requirement and what is included and how it will be integrated with Indian IADS , Once deal is signed MOD might give some details

If the 5 system deal is what it is going to be then it will be a huge thing covering easily multiple cities with more than 1000 plus SAMs including reloads and many different radars , C4ISR and logistics ...the foot print of one one single S-400 battery with 12 TEL and Radars/Reloads is is huge good enough to cover a city like Mumbai much less a regiment involving many batallions and brigade

5 systems ( regiments ) can easily cover 25 top cities of India using various combinations of deployment , Just a simple calculations show a Single S-400 battery carries 12 TEL , Each TEL has atleast 4 BIG missile of 40N6 or 48Nx class give it 48 missile plus 2-3 x reloads ( 96- 144 SAM of 48/40N class )

So just one single battery give you atleast 96-144 big missile of 250-400 km range , One Regimens has 8 batteries and one Brigade has 2 regiment , Typlical SAM deployment are layered so it will have MR-SAM/Akash and SHORAD system in different layers. This would easily be the biggest SAM deployment since independence covering all major cities and strategic facility with dense layered SAM and Radars

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Jun 2018 01:00

Why would they deploy s400 near Indian cities? I thought these were already being covered by desi ABM. A recent report said that the reason for the import was to cover Chinese border, which would make sense. Along with A and N command?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 04 Jun 2018 03:46

Bart,
I don’t know what is so special about the S-400 but IAF chief has put it as #1 acquisition priority. Somehow this system puts fear of god in enemy of any country that buys it. Nothing from Russia is selling like a hot cake except for this system.

Mat be John can put more light on it but seems everyone who can afford it and not tied to Khan wants one- China, Turkey , Qatar, Syria, Iran and India. Only real good products sell that well.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 04 Jun 2018 23:23

Katare wrote:Bart,
I don’t know what is so special about the S-400 but IAF chief has put it as #1 acquisition priority. Somehow this system puts fear of god in enemy of any country that buys it. Nothing from Russia is selling like a hot cake except for this system.

Mat be John can put more light on it but seems everyone who can afford it and not tied to Khan wants one- China, Turkey , Qatar, Syria, Iran and India. Only real good products sell that well.

Do you have link for IAF claim of thios being #1 priority i would sure hope trainers, LCA/Rafale, Anti aircraft gun replacement should be higher priority than this.

To my knowledge only China has S-400 and Turkey has ordered them. Qatar and India are in advanced negotiations for the system. Chinese purchase IMO is simply a cover for Chinese funding for the system and in a few years we will S-400 clones roll out of chinese factories. We will all assume once again China has reverse engineered it but in all likely hood they received full tech transfer from Russia.

In case of Turkey and Qatar it is good purchase, Turkey operates short and medium range SAM that are aging (hawk, advanced hawk and rapier) and it is better alternative to Patriot. Their indigenous Hisar SAM system in development can provide short and point defense and S-400 can provide medium and long range engagement.

In case of IAF currently MR-SAM is superior to S-400 when it comes medium and possibly long range air defense (with addition of ER rounds) especially if you factor in costs. Only area for S-400 to fill the gap is ABM and over 150 km range engagements both of which have domestic programs that are in pipeline.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 05 Jun 2018 03:12

I’ll have to think and dig for the link but it was solid that is why i caved into supporting the deal otherwise my trust in Russian capabilities have almost finished.

Saudi Arabia just issued a warning to Qatar that they won’t tolerate S-400 in their neighborhood.

Also why do uou think India win’t get an mini anti ballistic missile defense capabilities too like US patriot systems?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 05 Jun 2018 05:10

Katare wrote:
Also why do uou think India win’t get an mini anti ballistic missile defense capabilities too like US patriot systems?


I doubt after S-400 there is room in budget for purchase of another ABM and will eat into even domestic program (AAD). S-400 deal will likely consist of 9M96E/9M96E2 and latter is comparable to PAC-3 (per ausairpower). There are questions on whether the deal will include the 40N6 or even the 48N6 missiles (400 and 250 ranges missile).

As for PAC-3 it is not cheap Qatar purchase was around 10 billion 5 years ago for 44 launchers and 1000 missiles ( mixture of 2 and 3). For Qatar or Turkey this is a cheaper alternative.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 05 Jun 2018 08:09

Why do you think IAF is interested in it even after AaD/PAD, MRSAM and Akash? Only thing that makes sense is either ultra long range SAM or tactical ABM capability. I can’t think of anything else.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 05 Jun 2018 12:56

Katare wrote:Why do you think IAF is interested in it even after AaD/PAD, MRSAM and Akash? Only thing that makes sense is either ultra long range SAM or tactical ABM capability. I can’t think of anything else.


How do you know that it is solely the IAF who is interested in it and not vested interests in the GOI/MOD pushing the IAF? Can you honestly say that IAF has been a major champion of indigenous capability development (as opposed to buying off the shelf) in the past?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Neshant » 05 Jun 2018 13:33

None of the anti missile systems from US more Russia have proven to work effectively in battle.
Could be ending up with a large bill and a false sense of security.
I'd have more faith in anti missile systems if India developed it's own version.

Bart S
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 05 Jun 2018 14:40

Neshant wrote:None of the anti missile systems from US more Russia have proven to work effectively in battle.
Could be ending up with a large bill and a false sense of security.
I'd have more faith in anti missile systems if India developed it's own version.


+100 This is an investment that will only compound over the years, if built indigenously instead of shortcuts inspired by brochureitis. The gains for Indian electronics/radars/EW/missiles/seekers/C4I along with advanced areas like encryption, AI and automation would be immense.

Katare
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 05 Jun 2018 23:00

Bart S wrote:
Katare wrote:Why do you think IAF is interested in it even after AaD/PAD, MRSAM and Akash? Only thing that makes sense is either ultra long range SAM or tactical ABM capability. I can’t think of anything else.


How do you know that it is solely the IAF who is interested in it and not vested interests in the GOI/MOD pushing the IAF? Can you honestly say that IAF has been a major champion of indigenous capability development (as opposed to buying off the shelf) in the past?


The vested interest argument is kind of double edged sword because one could also ask if Katare and bart have vested interest in arguing one way or the other? So lets leave it there.

IAF is not a champion I agree but they did buy billions of dollar worth of Akash and MRSAM (half import) didn't they. AAD and PAD decisions are not in their hand anyhow. If they are import pasand and as John and others are saying that MRSAM is technically superior to S-400 than why not buy more of semi-imported MRSAM was my argument? I am not arguing one way or other I am just puzzled what the heck is going on here.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2018 23:08

Katare wrote:Bart,
I don’t know what is so special about the S-400 but IAF chief has put it as #1 acquisition priority. Somehow this system puts fear of god in enemy of any country that buys it. Nothing from Russia is selling like a hot cake except for this system.

Mat be John can put more light on it but seems everyone who can afford it and not tied to Khan wants one- China, Turkey , Qatar, Syria, Iran and India. Only real good products sell that well.


Only weakness is that its PESA based systems mostly, which limits range in standard systems against VLO/LO threats, but capable even so. Otherwise a very potent system, almost impossible to jam without huge investment in non conventional EW, and also loads of investment in decoys etc to basically mission reduce the system by having it fire off rounds or its protectors and then use a brief window to saturate it with fast moving attackers. Easier said than done.
Israel is, per several accounts, worried sick about S-4XX entering service with its opponents and has lobbied Russia aggressively to prevent it from happening. Says it all, really.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 06 Jun 2018 02:24

I believe Israel is also concerned those missiles (especially the 400 km ranged variant) could be potentially be used as a hypersonic land attack missiles. The solid propellant is far more advanced than what iran has.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Jun 2018 09:43

Katare wrote:I’ll have to think and dig for the link but it was solid that is why i caved into supporting the deal otherwise my trust in Russian capabilities have almost finished.

Saudi Arabia just issued a warning to Qatar that they won’t tolerate S-400 in their neighborhood.

Also why do uou think India win’t get an mini anti ballistic missile defense capabilities too like US patriot systems?


Let me help you saar...
https://mobile.twitter.com/livefist/status/973530138720854016

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2018/mar/13/army-air-force-sounds-major-funds-crunch-2018-budget-dashed-hopes-1786563.html

Is that proof enough that the IAF considers the s400 a top priority?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Jun 2018 10:11

Cain Marko wrote:
Katare wrote:I’ll have to think and dig for the link but it was solid that is why i caved into supporting the deal otherwise my trust in Russian capabilities have almost finished.

Saudi Arabia just issued a warning to Qatar that they won’t tolerate S-400 in their neighborhood.

Also why do uou think India win’t get an mini anti ballistic missile defense capabilities too like US patriot systems?


Let me help you saar...
https://mobile.twitter.com/livefist/status/973530138720854016

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2018/mar/13/army-air-force-sounds-major-funds-crunch-2018-budget-dashed-hopes-1786563.html

Is that proof enough that the IAF considers the s400 a top priority?


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