Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 551
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Gyan » 19 Oct 2016 10:03

All foreigners want to collaborate with DPSU because:-

Repeat orders are slipped in under guise of PSU manufactering
High price is hidden under carpet of PSU incomptence
PSU Never never Ever absorbs any technology and imports become a norm.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2247
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kashi » 19 Oct 2016 10:44

Gyan wrote:All foreigners want to collaborate with DPSU because:-

Repeat orders are slipped in under guise of PSU manufactering
High price is hidden under carpet of PSU incomptence
PSU Never never Ever absorbs any technology and imports become a norm.


Then why was Dassault adamant on partnering Reliance instead of HAL?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32128
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby shiv » 19 Oct 2016 10:58

Rakesh wrote:JayS: There are numerous articles of the Ka-226 being planned to be used in Siachen. But I could not come across a single article - after a brief search - of the Ka-226 undergoing trials in Siachen. I am assuming the specs of the chopper gave the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) the confidence that the helo can operate effectively in the CASEVAC role and transport role in Siachen.

ragupta: The number of the choppers being ordered - 197 ? - is a clear giveaway that the AAC plans to use the Ka-226 in other regions as well other than Siachen.

High altitude trials were held along with Fennec and another helo
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-th ... ls-1348713
"We have brought the Ka-226 helicopters for the high altitude trials that are going on at present. We are competing in the bids against Eurocopter and Agusta Westland," Rosoboronexport's deputy director general Victor Komardin said here today.


Also see
https://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/02/13 ... ndia_14810

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 551
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Gyan » 19 Oct 2016 11:03

Kashi wrote:
Gyan wrote:All foreigners want to collaborate with DPSU because:-

Repeat orders are slipped in under guise of PSU manufactering
High price is hidden under carpet of PSU incomptence
PSU Never never Ever absorbs any technology and imports become a norm.


Then why was Dassault adamant on partnering Reliance instead of HAL?


Because guarantees for timely delivery, performance, price adherence, LCC was being demanded as part of contract. Actually MMRCA was a contract promised to USA without bribes. But Dassault was able to manage its way in. Unfortunately the terms were stringent and it could not afford to take up such heavy responsibility through HAL.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16434
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2016 13:10

Aport from the S-400s,frigates,KA-226s,officiallyt announced,there were other apparent deals not publicised.Pres.Putin spoke about the deal for LR BMos (details in the Ru td) ,smaller version for subs,and the FGFA.The second Akula seems to be heading for Indian waters and here's news of a pos. JV for Ilyushin turbo-prop aircraft too.

http://defencenews.in/article/Russia-an ... plane-8812
Russia and India may set up joint production of Il-114-300 plane
Wednesday, October 19, 2016
By: Russia India Report

The Ilyushin Il-114-300 project in the future can become a basis for setting up a Russian-Indian joint venture, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said at a meeting on aviation development. According to him, a pertinent presentation has already been prepared by the Ilyushin Design Bureau and forwarded to India.

"We believe it is a good aircraft that can be offered up for joint production. At least, we will begin with assembling the aircraft on Indian territory, paving the way for its joint production in India and other countries," he said.

At the same time, Rogozin stressed that in the beginning the project’s full-scale production should be set up in Russia. He said that upon the president’s instructions the work was being wrapped up and "soon a document will be put forward, containing a synchronized schedule on the purchase of aircraft for our air companies, and the production capacities as well."

"We won’t encourage air companies to use foreign-made aircraft any more, if this sort of aircraft can be produced in Russia," Rogozin stated. "This is a tough restriction that we employ in order to protect our domestic market. We are a great aviation power and we should be ashamed of buying foreign aircraft for popular routes."

He also said that the Ilyushin Il-114-300 aircraft should be of high-quality, "its flying characteristics and image should ensure its high demand domestically and even abroad," Rogozin added. The production of the plane is scheduled to start in 2019.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 19 Oct 2016 15:08

New Rus helicopter Ka-226K (naval version) performed maiden landing on ship deck in Baltic Sea.

Image

https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/788668494879547392

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sankum » 19 Oct 2016 16:04

100nos IN NLUH tender can be split into 50nos Ka226k and 50nos NALH instead of buying a totally new helicopter.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8859
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby arun » 19 Oct 2016 17:53

X Posted from the “Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015” thread.

Car Nicobar Class Water Jet Fast Attack Craft (WJFAC) INS Tihayu commissioned:

INS Tihayu Joins the Indian Navy

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sankum » 19 Oct 2016 23:32


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 46390
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2016 05:28

There was an evaluation of aerodynamic performance of helicopters in this forum. I cant find the thread.
Maybe we need to ask for KA 226 vs LUH?

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby DavidD » 20 Oct 2016 10:56

vina wrote:Just wondering. WTF are WE bailing out the Russian arms industry time and again when the the Russian economy is in DEEP doo-doo and they in turn , take our money, shaft us, and then turn around and SELL stuff developed based on our money to everyone, including Chinese.

Case in point the Ka-226 T and the Grigorovich class frigates recently signed with Russia

Ka 266T - The grand total of ALL Ka 266 class airframes (including its progenitors the Ka 26 and Ka 266 ) is a GRAND TOTAL of LESS THAN 100 for the past 25 years! The Ka 226 T is the Turbomeca version of that ,of which hardly any are in production and proven . WE will be the guinea pigs who will order TWICE the number of airframes as they currently are in existence and then debug the 226T model. And this is when the HAL - LUH is soon entering production . Why NOT order our own airframes (which is a more recent design) and also use our own paid for engine (The Ardiden, in common with the Dhruv) and build 600 airframes that are required. WHY ARE WE BAILING out KAMOV ? This Ka 266 is a dead airframe, and will see NO sales, but for the 200 Indian order.

Grigorovich Class :Russia doesnt have the engines for this, thanks to the Ukraine conflict. They have to SELL it to someone. We are the suckers. The Ukrainian engines are available to us , so we snap it up! And this when entire shipyards in in India have MASSIVE debt and are reeling in bankruptcy and restructuring . Why not send the 4 new build orders to them. Okay, but the two completed ones if you want for hull /scrap value, but why give new build orders to Yantar! Where are we bailing out the Russian Shipyard ? Also, the Zorya Gas Turbines are not something we want to be dependent on the long term given how uncertain Ukraine is.

We did the same thing with the massive Su-30 order in the early 90s and that resurrected the Soviet/Russian aircraft industry. They paid us back by selling versions of the Flanker to China in massive quantities, including full tech transfer. Now why are we repeating the SAME mistake.

This time, in exchange for the massive Rs 80,000 crore order bailing out a who host of industries,they pay us back by flirting with the Pakis and being brazen about it ?

We are HUGE SUCKERS
. That is why the Russians get away with this. We have far better frigates (Shivalik class follow ons). Make more of them in the shipyards that we have that are lying idle. Why buy Russian ? Same with helicopter. We have a great LUH that has a great single engine (Far lower operating costs than a 2 engine). We have full rights on that engine, we have a great Dhruv derived airframe and architecture. We have the glass cockpit and everything from Dhruv. Why are we buying a failed/dead airframe and shooting our own products in the foot ?


Look on the bright side, if India didn't bail out the Russian MIC then they probably would've done a few more ToT deals with China and the Chinese military would be much more advanced. They probably would've sold some weapons to Pakistan as well. Indian money kept Russian tech and weapons out of Chinese Pakistani hands, while getting some very capable if a bit overpriced weapons in return. Maybe it's still not a great deal, but perhaps not as bad as you make it out to be.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8859
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby arun » 20 Oct 2016 12:36

X Posted from the “Indian Single Engined Multi Role Fighter with Transfer of Manufacturing Technology” thread.

gauravwarrior wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/air-force-letter-creates-confusion-about-plans-to-set-up-indias-domestic-fighter-production-line/articleshow/54945552.cms

Seems like speculative journalism....

May be we don't need to fret about another line, going by past track record it will take 4-5 years for process to be completed any ways :)


Extracts from the above article by Manu Pubby:

The letter says that the requirement is for a `minimum fourth generation single engine aircraft’ to be indigenously manufactured under the Make in India initiative.


While the letter may not be the final word on India’s new planned fighter line, it brings down a selection to only two contenders with what is already being described as a `match fixing’ condition of a single engine fighter. The only operational fighters that practically meet this condition for an Indian contest are the Saab Gripen and the Lockheed Martin F 16.


I am not even sure if there are two contenders, to me it sounds more like one contender, the F16. The Single Engined choices listed by MTOW in metric tonnes available today on the market are:

KAI/LM FA-50 (MTOW 12.3)
HAL LCA (MTOW 13.5)
JAS 39 C/D (MTOW 14.0)
F16 Block 50/52 (MTOW 19.2)
F35A (MTOW 31.80)

Using the LCA as the benchmark to define “Light”, the F35A comes in as “Heavy” while the JAS 39 C/D and FA-50 comes in as “Light” leaving the F16 C the only aircraft in the “Medium” category.

If the contents of the IAF letter sent out are true, seems the fix to buy American is well and truly in.
Last edited by arun on 20 Oct 2016 14:21, edited 2 times in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16434
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Philip » 20 Oct 2016 12:40

This is a real cutie Pie what (Naval Ka)?! It would fill a very viatl gap in the ASW role for our smaller warships which have been using navalised Chetaks thus far. What is unique about this bird is the specialised payload modules that can be attached or detached from the helo.I am sure that once we get to grips with this unique bird,Indian ingenuity can develop a really great little ASW bird with a dipping sonar (as on the heavier Kamovs, and a couple of lightweight torpedoes.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sankum » 20 Oct 2016 14:43

A dipping sonar will weight 250-300kg. Maritime radar 100kg. Sonobuoy launcher with sonobuys 200kg. single LWT 250kg for a total weight of 800kg more likely to be carried by heavier NALH than naval Ka 226K which will carry a small weather radar with secondary surface search capability and no dipping sonar or sonobuoy launcher and minimum single LWT for anti sub role as regard to NLUH make in India tender.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 20 Oct 2016 19:50

The impact of India’s S-400 purchase

During Prime Minister Modi’s visit to Moscow, India and Russia signed an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) over the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system.

Under the $4.5 to $5 billion U.S. deal, India expects to receive the first batch of these systems from 2020. The S-400 purchase has been heralded as a ‘game-changer’ and a means to imbue India with an ‘edge’ against its regional adversaries – China and Pakistan.

In the aftermath of a Russian Air Force (VVS) Su-24 kill at the hands of a Turkish Air Force F-16, Moscow deployed the S-400 to Syria in order to support its expeditionary forces with direct air defence cover and – at least in the view of numerous observers – provide deterrence.

Whatever Russia’s intention behind deploying the S-400, the decision to send it to Syria certainly drew a high level of attention to the system. At this stage, many will be familiar with the S-400’s marquee missile – the 40N6 – which has a maximum engagement range of 400 km. In tandem, the S-400 also comprises of the 250 km range 48N6 as well as the medium-to-long-range 120km 9M96E2 and 40km 9M96E.

While generally viewed as a long-range SAM system, the S-400 is a comprehensive suite in that it is aimed to address a wide range of aerial threats, from long-range strategic threats (such as bombers) to stealthy low-flying cruise missiles. Its range coverage can span from as short as 40 km to as far as 400 km. The S-400’s principal radar – i.e. the 92N6E Grave Stone – can track 100 targets and simultaneously engage up to six (via its paired anti-air missiles). Its phased-array design is ascribed with effective electronic counter-counter measures (ECCM) capabilities, enabling it to withstand enemy radar jamming systems. Finally, the S-400 (in line with its Russian predecessors) is also a mobile system, thereby giving its users considerable flexibility in terms of deploying, withdrawing, and re-deploying the system.

Under the multi-billion-dollar deal, New Delhi is to procure five S-400 systems. The specific details of what India will be receiving have not yet been disclosed, but given the amount in question, it would be a surprise if the 48N6 (250 km) and 40N6 (400 km) missiles are not included. It is not clear how many launchers each S-400 system includes, though an image on Air Power Australia suggests that it should be at least four.

At first thought, one would assume that India has every incentive to station a number of S-400 systems – potentially up to three – in fairly close proximity to Pakistan. If equipped with the 40N6 missile, grounding the S-400 in the heart of Indian Punjab would enable India to stifle the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) from flying in key areas in its Central Command theatre (which is responsible for protecting Lahore, the country’s inland economic hub and second largest city). Similar positioning and results can be had in the south (in terms of Karachi) and the north (in terms of Kashmir).

India need not deploy the S-400 in that manner (at least permanently), though the incentive to pre-empt Pakistan from utilizing its aerial assets (which carry a number of the country’s pre-emptive stand-off range munitions) is certainly there and should not be dismissed. In fact, the risk of India taking such a course is something Pakistani defence planners would be wise to acknowledge and work to address. Moreover, India’s other air defence investments (e.g. Barak) provide it with ample opportunity to build medium-to-long range SAM applications for more conservative air defence deployments.

In general, Pakistan’s options to address the S-400, at least in terms of practical implementation, would be to (1) form a strong air defence umbrella over its own airspace, (2) greatly expand its asymmetrical offensive capabilities, and (3) heavily invest in defensively sound electronic warfare (EW) and electronic countermeasures (ECM) capabilities (to protect aerial assets and to pursue the S-400).

All three elements will require considerable financial investment; in lieu of certain long-term economic progress, Pakistan can, at best, pursue a partial solution (i.e. one or two of the three components) and further pivot towards its strategic deterrence element. This will be discussed in terms of the S-400 in a later article, and further elaborated upon in the series “Pakistan’s Pursuit of Force-Multipliers.”

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2941
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Oct 2016 07:06

Shukla's speculation, or the truth?

Nearing approval, “strategic partner” policy to unlock submarine building

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 20th Oct 16

The missing link in a number of crucial defence procurements, especially the much-delayed Project 75I (referred to as 75-India) to build six conventional submarines for the navy, is close to being resolved.

Business Standard learns that the “strategic partner” policy has been finalised. It is currently before the defence secretary for clearance, after which it will be quickly cleared by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who has made the policy a personal mission. Then it goes to the finance ministry, before final clearance by the cabinet.

The “strategic partner” policy spells out guidelines for nominating private Indian defence firms as partners of choice for building submarines, warships, fighter aircraft, helicopters, tanks, etc. Foreign vendors selling India these platforms would be required to transfer technology to the designated Indian “strategic partner”, which would manufacture the platform in India, and support it through its service life.

The “strategic partner” policy was to be a part of the Defence Procurement Policy of 2016 (DPP-2016). But reservations within the ministry over the method of identifying partner companies forced the issuance of DPP-2016 with a missing Chapter 6.

Now Chapter 6 --- the “strategic partner” policy --- is close to being cleared.

Nobody is more pleased about this than the navy, with Project 75I being held up for want of a strategic partner. The ministry has favoured a proposal to build four Project 75I submarines at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL), and the remaining two through the designated “strategic partner”.

In Delhi on Tuesday, Vice Admiral GS Pabby, the navy’s warship construction and acquisition chief, indicated that Project 75I could soon be globally tendered.

He revealed that the delay in the “strategic partner” policy arose from “complications that needed to be sorted out”, but were now almost resolved.

Business Standard learns the biggest hurdle was a covenant the ministry needed to provide each strategic partner, stipulating that the partner would automatically benefit from follow-on orders and other benefits. Such a requirement had been spelt out in the VK Aatre recommendations for identifying strategic partners.

However, ministry bureaucrats, eager to bind the strategic partners with contracts and covenants, were less willing to hold the ministry to responsibilities of its own.

Defence industry insiders believe the first two major contracts that the promulgation of the “strategic partner” policy would unleash are: a light fighter production line, and Project 75I.

Pabby confirmed on Tuesday that the six Project 75I vessels would incorporate indigenous AIP, based on advanced “fuel cell technology”, developed by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO). A submarine equipped with AIP can remain underwater for long periods, making it difficult for the enemy to detect them.

In contrast, submarines propelled by traditional diesel-electric systems (like all of India’s submarine fleet, including the Scorpenes currently being built) require to surface periodically --- usually every 48-72 hours --- to recharge batteries. A surfaced submarine is vulnerable to detection by the enemy.

The DRDO’s AIP system is being productionised by an industrial partner, Larsen & Toubro. That would provide L&T a significant advantage when the ministry selects a strategic partner for submarine building.

Project 75I is regarded as crucial for the navy’s operational credibility. Its submarine fleet is down to just 13 vessels, against the 24 regarded as essential. Six Scorpene submarines being built at MDL are running late, but should all be in service by the end of this decade.

The navy had kept open an option for DCNS --- the Scorpene’s French vendor --- to provide AIP for the last two Scorpene vessels. Today Pabby ruled out AIP for those.

Separately, Pabby declined comment on media reports that India’s first nuclear ballistic missile submarine, INS Arihant, had been commissioned into navy in August. However, hinting at an impending announcement, he stated: “There will soon be an opportunity to talk about it”.

The Arihant has no naval operational role. It operates under the Strategic Forces Command, lurking underwater for months at a stretch, ready to fire nuclear tipped ballistic missiles at any enemy that ventured to launch a “first strike” against India.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2941
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Oct 2016 23:55

We are an ally who stood by India in darkest hours: Russia

NEW DELHI: With deals over USD 12 billion in kitty this month, including leasing of a second nuclear submarine, Russia hopes to bag more projects as it termed itself as not just a business partner but an "ally" who stood by India in its "darkest hours".

Russia is eying the multi-billion dollar deal for P75-I project of India under which six conventional submarines are to be built with Air Independent Propulsion systems and the next aircraft carrier project besides the deal to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft.

Asserting that there is no limit to what India and Russia can do together, a top Russian defense official claimed the US and Europeans can never give what Moscow can and has offered.

"We are ready not just to deliver most serious weapons, most important weapons but continue to give our state of art technology," Sergei Chemezov, CEO of Rostec State Corporation, an umbrella organisation of 700 hi-tech civilian and military firms, told PTI.

"Not so in the recent past, when India was under sanctions, we were pretty much the only partner for India.

"Russia has been a partner not only in every day military supplies but also most sensitive and most important supplies including a nuclear submarine which was rented to India for you to use," said Chemezov who is also a close aide of Russian President Vladmir Putin.


I think the Russian Amur will be selected for Project 75I.

Western submarines are too expensive and, on top of that, the suppliers leak information to their friends like Australia.

suryag
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2850
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby suryag » 24 Oct 2016 00:14

An Amur1650 mki with our sonar, combat management system, aip, torpedoes k-series, Brahmos would be gamechanger

Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bheeshma » 24 Oct 2016 00:18

I think AIP, USHUS and Brahmos are a given for the P-75I. Hopefully it will be built by L&T and not Mazagoan. I don't see any diesel electric sub carrying K series, Nirbhay hopefully.

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3404
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Paul » 24 Oct 2016 00:58

Going by the saying "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold" a resounding slap should be delivered to the Germans for selling the blueprints of the HDW-209 to SA in the 80s and grounding our Sub program to a halt.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1233
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srin » 24 Oct 2016 06:53

Bheeshma wrote:I think AIP, USHUS and Brahmos are a given for the P-75I. Hopefully it will be built by L&T and not Mazagoan. I don't see any diesel electric sub carrying K series, Nirbhay hopefully.


And what should MDL do with its hard earned sub building skills ?

Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bheeshma » 24 Oct 2016 07:03

Hard earned?? :rotfl: Did they learn anything? What did they do with the Type- 209 skills?

John
BRFite
Posts: 1534
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 24 Oct 2016 07:20

suryag wrote:An Amur1650 mki with our sonar, combat management system, aip, torpedoes k-series, Brahmos would be gamechanger

Amur is all but dead the design has way too many problems. Russians have abandoned it and are promoting Kilo for export.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 24 Oct 2016 07:42

In what is Amur facing issues?

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20058
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Prem » 24 Oct 2016 07:55

Hope Russians have stolen S 1000's Western secrets and come up with their own Harami product .

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Bart S » 24 Oct 2016 08:50

srin wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:I think AIP, USHUS and Brahmos are a given for the P-75I. Hopefully it will be built by L&T and not Mazagoan. I don't see any diesel electric sub carrying K series, Nirbhay hopefully.


And what should MDL do with its hard earned sub building skills ?


Sell MDL to L&T. In fact just move/merge the operations into one of L&T's existing facilities and retain the prime waterfront space in Mumbai for the IN.

John
BRFite
Posts: 1534
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 24 Oct 2016 09:22

Cybaru wrote:In what is Amur facing issues?

Lada had propulsion problems and AIP was lagging behind. Russians have abandoned it in favor of next generation submarine Kalina.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 24 Oct 2016 09:51

The first Lada was a test platform which went through extensive evaluation testing and September this year has has passed trials , Two more Lada are now under construction for Pacific fleet post that they move to Kalina project which is Lada submarine with AIP and Li-Ion Battery.

http://tass.com/defense/902924

Rubin Design Bureau Chief Executive Igor Vilnit said on Thursday.

The United Ship-Building Corporation announced plans in spring to complete the operational evaluation of the submarine St. Petersburg in 2016.

"As far as we know, the Navy plans to complete the operational evaluation measures this year. The results that have been obtained correspond to the expectations, which confirms the broad prospects for the vessels of this class," the CEO said.

The operational evaluation that has already been under way for six years, has allowed checking the submarine’s mechanisms and testing the schemes of its use. Also, the submarine is being used to train Navy personnel.

"Initially, the Lada-class submarine was designed as the most advanced ship, for which new types of hardware were developed for testing. Following the submarine’s operational evaluation, and also considering that new radio-electronic technology and other systems have appeared over this period, the Rubin design bureau has worked out an improved project, under which the Admiralty Wharves Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwest Russia is now building two vessels of this class," Vilnit said.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 24 Oct 2016 10:23

John wrote:
Cybaru wrote:In what is Amur facing issues?

Lada had propulsion problems and AIP was lagging behind. Russians have abandoned it in favor of next generation submarine Kalina.


Thanks!

John
BRFite
Posts: 1534
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 24 Oct 2016 17:12

Austin wrote:The first Lada was a test platform which went through extensive evaluation testing and September this year has has passed trials , Two more Lada are now under construction for Pacific fleet post that they move to Kalina project which is Lada submarine with AIP and Li-Ion Battery.

http://tass.com/defense/902924


Kalina from what understand is a new design based on Project 636 (Kilo) and Lada. It won't see induction any time before 2025 IMO. As for additional submarines Russian navy is being strong armed into procuring them they have little to no interest in it and various admirals have openly come out against it.

The new submarine will combine the best characteristics of Project 636 (Varshavyanka) and Project 677 (Lada) submarines and is set to be equipped with an air independent propulsion (AIP) system.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201603 ... submarine/


Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3392
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Oct 2016 17:34

suryag wrote:An Amur1650 mki with our sonar, combat management system, aip, torpedoes k-series, Brahmos would be gamechanger

John saar has proven many times that Amur can't carry Brahmos.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 24 Oct 2016 22:40

I hope we codevelop something useful for this P75I project. Maybe both MDL and L&T can make 6 each.

nachiket
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5754
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49
Location: Соединенные Штаты Америки

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby nachiket » 25 Oct 2016 04:26

Manish_Sharma wrote:John saar has proven many times that Amur can't carry Brahmos.

The AMur/Lada has much bigger problems than not being able to carry the Brahmos. The Russians haven't been able to get the Lada to work and are abandoning it as John pointed out.

But, is there ANY (diesel) sub which can (theoretically) launch the Brahmos, if we can modify it? Can we do it without significantly impacting performance? This sub-launched Brahmos insistence will only ensure that we stay critically short of subs for even longer.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 25 Oct 2016 09:17

It's kinda strange to come up with a dud design after so many years of sub production.

Some interesting comments by Anonymous "KQN" below the article. http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2016/01/ ... -lada.html perhaps some sea faring person on BR may or maynot want to comment it.

Plus this is interesting as well. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... o-ethanol/ So all the co2 being created could quite easily become energy as well (Take a break scrubber!). May not be sufficient, but a small unit could convert co2 to vodka for longer cruise parties... Nothing like good moonshine on a cruise!

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 25 Oct 2016 10:17

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/7 ... 0989327360

Embraer had reportedly paid close to 6 million dollars to a middleman to push through the sale of 3 jets to DRDO. CBI investigating.

Defence major Embraer to pay $206 million after accepting corrupt practices in deals including supply of 3 airborne warning jets to India


IAF officials: Punitive action against Embraer and investigations shouldn't come in the way of critical systems being inducted.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20058
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Prem » 25 Oct 2016 10:24

http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/emb ... 263126.ece
Embraer entered into the resolution to resolve criminal charges and agreed to pay a penalty of more than $ 107 million in connection with schemes involving the bribery of government officials in the Dominican Republic, Saudi Arabia and Mozambique, and to pay millions more in falsely recorded payments in India via a sham agency agreement, the US Justice Department said.
Under the settlement, apart from the $107 million penalty to the Justice Department as part of a deferred prosecution agreement, Embraer must also pay more than $ 98 million in disgorgement and interest to the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).According to the company’s admissions, Embraer executives and employees paid bribes to government officials and falsified books and records in connection with aircraft sales to foreign governments and state-owned entities in multiple countries.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 25 Oct 2016 10:25

we should get some of this money! Where is this money going?

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1048
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Zynda » 25 Oct 2016 11:19

^^A little OT here. This culture of "whats in it for me?" is prevalent even in Pvt Sector. If you are a small business owner trying to demo your wares, a bunch of hands needs to be greased even in Pvt firms to get an appointment with CTO or whomever responsible of making final decisions. Obviously, defense contracts involve huge sums and are a subject of highlighted investigations. Doing business in India is quite tough.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1778
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cybaru » 25 Oct 2016 11:45

The country paid more than 6-10 million extra for a product than it needed to. That money should be refunded by Embraer along with some penalty to continue doing business in India. Not sure I follow your comment Zynda.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3392
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Oct 2016 12:48

nachiket wrote:But, is there ANY (diesel) sub which can (theoretically) launch the Brahmos, if we can modify it? Can we do it without significantly impacting performance? This sub-launched Brahmos insistence will only ensure that we stay critically short of subs for even longer.


I think Soryu is around 4000 tons, and can do it.

Maybe Soryu can do it, but peacenik japanese will have a cardiac arrest at the mention of putting such a fearsome weapon on their peaceful platform.

French have claimed and won australian competition. But now are afraid that they can't deliver. Hence they tried to make peace with German Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft saying we white europeans should protect and work together and prevent Asians from getting it.

But Germans are hurting pretty bad with this defeat, so they may give a lot to us just to spite the kangaroos and frogs.

Best is that in same way as nuclear-barracuda is transformed into smx-ocean.

We propose to germans that we make Arihant into 4000 ton single hull SSK and get as much Tot as possible while developing together.

That can carry longer range Nirbhay instead of Brahmos.

And germans can make it run on Li-on batteries + diesel instead of diesel+aip just like japanese will do for their next soryu subs.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A Sharma, brar_w, DrRatnadip, Kakarat, nash, srinebula, suryag, Thakur_B and 51 guests