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Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Neshant
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Neshant » 01 Jan 2017 19:21

Put the suggestion forward to the Japani with a clear plan of action of how both countries could cooperate on a 5th gen aircraft project.
Both countries can then absorb the planes with India doing so in sizeable numbers.

If they are not interested, then there is no point wasting time talking defense co-operation with them hereafter.

This is a better plan than buying 4th generation aircraft from countries claiming they will help us make a 5th generation aircraft.
All they will do is pitch a 4th and later 5th gen plane they have already developed and we'll stick a "Made in India" on it after some screw driver giri.

The only stumbling block are questions regarding the competency of DRDO and what DRDO will produce as India's contribution to such a Indo-Japanese project. Hopefully DRDO won't leave Japan to do all the hard work while relaxing doing irrelavant, simple stuff technologically speaking.

It has to be a shared effort with India putting in some serious technologically competent stuff (home grown AESA radar, upgraded Kaveri engines, air-to-air missiles, flight control software, stealth composite construction..etc). Japan being masters in electronics could probably let it rip on customized micro-electronics & sensor development, EW, ECM, ECCM, Sensor fusion, Engine design (with India), new gen weapons, network centric warfare infrastructure). Perhaps both countries could even delve into 6th gen aircraft technology like Google Deepmind type Artificial Intelligence for the aircraft/weapons.

It would be a great project of technological development for both countries. But the babus have to make a PROPER PITCH to the Japani or they will laugh it off. If they f- that up sending a memo without a clear plan, its a wasted opportunity. Take this up at the highest levels with the Japani govt.

brar_w
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby brar_w » 01 Jan 2017 19:28

For Japan the question vis-a-vis the F-3 is one of them wanting to develop something that is 'their own' and not of collaboration. There are plenty of nations including the US with whom they have a security treaty and/or long standing defense industrial relationships no less that are willing to cooperate. Japan has also flirted with the idea of doing a hybrid development project where there is significant outside technical assistance through which they can field a better, and more affordable F-3. This option is also on the table. In fact just recently they floated an RFI to the international market asking for information.

If they do decide to go it alone, then strategic independence vis-a-vis 5th generation technology will be the driving force and not cost. A cooperation with India won't fit that construct. If they decide to open the program up for international participation they will have plenty of options including companies and design teams with whom they have long standing cooperative agreements. Then there are also advantages associated with sharing and interoperability vis a vis their F-15's and F-35's already involved in licensed production.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin emerge as early rivals for Japan's fighter contest ; JDW/July16

Boeing and Lockheed Martin have confirmed their interest in pursuing the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) requirement to replace its Mitsubishi F-2 multirole fighter aircraft.

Speaking to IHS Jane's on 19 July, the US corporations said that they will aim to leverage their significant respective footprints in Japan in bidding for a programme, which could be worth about USD20 billion.

The Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) has recently issued a request for information (RfI) and has said it expects to make a decision regarding the JASDF's "future fighter aircraft" by fiscal year 2018, which commences April 2018.

The F-2 was produced in the 2000s in a collaboration programme between Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) and Lockheed Martin and is expected to be retired from about 2027.A spokesperson from Boeing told IHS Jane's that the company was in the process of reviewing the F-2 replacement requirements. The spokesperson added that Boeing is "constantly looking for ways to grow [its] relationships and increase our presence in Japan, and are open to discussions with the customer to see how we can help meet their security needs".

A spokesperson from Lockheed Martin said, "Japan is seeking information from a variety of potential industry partners and we are certainly interested in another potential opportunity to bolster our long-standing partnership with Japan." The spokesperson added, "We are proud of our successful partnerships with Japan on the F-35 programme and MHI on the F-2 programme. We look forward to learning more about Japan's plans as discussions progress."

The RfI was issued in June to international combat aircraft manufacturers as part of a study into jet fighter technologies. The RfI closed earlier in July, with the companies - also likely to include Eurofighter and Saab - expected to present their information by the end of August.

The RfI is intended to support consideration of available combat aircraft as well as gauge international companies' willingness to participate in a collaborative programme as the MoD decides whether to develop the F-2 replacement indigenously or to enter a joint development programme with a foreign firm based on an existing fighter aircraft design. An import programme, followed by licenced production in Japan, is also a possibility as is the further development of Japan's experimental X-2 fighter aircraft, a prototype of which first flew in April 2016.

Production of the F-2 ended in September 2011, after the manufacture of about 90 aircraft. The MoD has said that no decisions have been made about how many replacement aircraft will be required, although up to 200 units is possible.
Given the long-standing and strong strategic, diplomatic, industrial, and military ties between Japan and the United States it seems probable that either Boeing or Lockheed Martin will be selected by Japan to partner on the programme to replace the F-2.

In October 2015 Boeing was selected by the Japan MoD to supply its KC-46A Pegasus aircraft to meet the JASDF's KC-X requirement for additional air-to-air refuelling and transport capability. The Foreign Military Sale is worth about USD520 million and will be supported by Boeing's extensive Japanese partnership network.

Boeing has teamings with about 65 Japanese companies. These ties have been forged in a number of major local production programmes including those to build F-15J/DJ Eagles, CH-47 Chinook helicopters, and AH-64DJP Apache attack helicopters.

Lockheed Martin has built up a similar network of industrial partnerships based on links with both Tier 1 manufacturers such as MHI and Tier 2/3 suppliers. The US corporation now describes Japan as its biggest international defence market, with a list of sales of major platforms many of which have been built in Japan. These include the F-35 fighter aircraft, which Japan ordered in 2012, the Aegis combat system, P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft, the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 interceptor and the MK 41 Vertical Launching System.

Surya
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Surya » 01 Jan 2017 20:59

japan may get all the collaborations but they need to produce it in numbers nad reasonable costs - and thats where India can come in (amrika is not going to bu

they currently spend gazillion dollars for what is a a relatively small numbers

brar_w
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby brar_w » 01 Jan 2017 21:12

Affordability can be brought in by buying future block variants of the F-35 since they have an established FACO which is months away from handing its first aircraft over. They share a local and global supply network. F-3 for them would be something that preserves their industrial capability to design, develop and produce modern fighter aircraft. The requirements could be anywhere from 90 aircraft to 200 aircraft. Depending upon how they line this project up options available to them could be to tap into established supply chains (that already bring in economies of scale) or to build things from scratch. If they go for the latter, it would be for strategic reasons and here sharing production and dividing up work runs contrary to the overall objective. If they want to do that, they already have a working model in the JSF which they could modify much the same way they did with the F-2. They will either work with one of the US OEM's or go on their own.

Nation's pursue military hardware development programs for strategic reasons bypassing 'business cases' all the time. We have quite recent examples of that. The US's refusal to sell F-22's to Japan and Israel to bring economies of scale, the French decision to go it alone on the Rafale despite massive EOS's offered on the Typhoon program, and the various other strategic programs nations pursue at massive cost. Japan in 2012, committed to a large scale industrial partnership on the F-35 where there industry supplies to the global program and they assemble affordable 5th generation aircraft utilizing its domestic and global supply chain. If they decide to pursue just a handful of technologies for the F-3 for self-reliance reasons (and not the entire project) they'll tie up with a US OEM since there is a strong strategic relationship, and industrial cooperation is well established. Joining hands with AdA/HAL on the AMCA brings little to them since they have options of teaming up far more experienced design houses and MIC's that have experience in this domain. Much like France with the Rafale, a higher cost on account of lower production volume is a reality they have to sign off on for strategic reasons if they decide to go down this path. Even if they allow export, the F-3 is unlikely to be a runaway success given how much of the 5th generation market would have already been captured by the US, Russia and possibly China.

A better cooperative path may be to look at developing key technologies in a collaboration with the Japanese MIC much the same way DTTI is trying to chart out a path on propulsion. You could use this to focus on fighter design and components that can be used by the AMCA and the F-3 but if someone thinks that they are likely to partner with India on a particular advanced fighter project then that's really not going to happen. If the Japanese go down this path, they have already issued an RFI for technical assistance. Not sure if HAL got this but it would be highly unlikely.
Last edited by brar_w on 01 Jan 2017 22:19, edited 5 times in total.

Austin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Jan 2017 21:53

Neshant wrote:Put the suggestion forward to the Japani with a clear plan of action of how both countries could cooperate on a 5th gen aircraft project.
Both countries can then absorb the planes with India doing so in sizeable numbers.


To explain in your language , thats like telling bankers to drop all ponzi scheme and stop leeching money from productivity part of the society ...Wont happen :rotfl:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jan 2017 22:07

So, working jointly with a Russki effort at a late stage is a bad idea but all of a sudden its a much better idea to work with Japani gudiya? That too at such a late stage.....what exactly is India going to contribute here?

Austin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Jan 2017 22:23

Cain Marko wrote:So, working jointly with a Russki effort at a late stage is a bad idea but all of a sudden its a much better idea to work with Japani gudiya? That too at such a late stage.....what exactly is India going to contribute here?


Japan wont really need india here , they can easily go to US for what ever they need and they are very strongly alligned with US , BTW what kind of JV did Japan worked with any country so far that are not part of formal US alliance ?

We still have 1000 % better chance to work with French or Saab for AMCA should such thing every come to that state then work with Japan.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jan 2017 22:33

^ good points.....the need to collaborate for the amca to begin with is questionable. Hasn't India gained boat loads of experience via LCA? And pray what can we get from Japanese that can't be had from Russians or French who have far more experience in such products?

The big issue for amca will be engines.....if kaveri can be brought to par with snecma, the rest can be done in-house. The ge-414 is another possibility. Other than that, India should be able to manage within next 10-15 years.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby brar_w » 01 Jan 2017 22:59

^ good points.....the need to collaborate for the amca to begin with is questionable. Hasn't India gained boat loads of experience via LCA? And pray what can we get from Japanese that can't be had from Russians or French who have far more experience in such products?


Exactly. And the same can be said of Japanese self-interest. They built the F-2 and have a MIC that can handle most of the industrial work as long as they get funding and time to create the eco-system as Lockheed, Boeing and Northrop Grumman have done around 5th generation products. What would AdA and HAL offer Japan compared to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Airbus, SAAB or Northrop Grumman? You seek out foreign partnership, and/or assistance in order to shorten your own design, development and production cycle or gain access to technology that you don't really have the capability to develop within the project timelines.

If production volume is a concern you look to join an industrial program or partnership that gets you the economies of scale in and they did this with the F-35. If Japan decides to maintain strategic independence vis-a-vis its US alliance (on this project) it would not be practical for them to then let go of much of the capability, technology and production work to yet another nation. You then are neither here nor there when it comes to either strategic independence or industrial work to keep your MIC employed. India likewise would want a partner for any future that has plenty of experience in the things it needs to advance its own technological or production interests.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Gyan » 01 Jan 2017 23:32

It seems that DM has ordered tha M-4 Assault Rifles be imported under Make in India for CQB role under FMS

Neshant
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Neshant » 02 Jan 2017 08:21

You completely miss the point.

1) Japan's AF will not be able to absorb a self-made 5th gen fighter in large numbers to justify high R&D costs. They do not have economy of scale. Thus the work they do on their project is largely limited to modifying major sub-systems from overseas like the engine. Together however, the IAF and the JAF have economy of scale to purchase this plane in large numbers. US will not buy a Japanese plane nor will anyone else.

2) By working with the Japanese, we are not just handing over money and buying a ready made system with a "Made in India" label stuck to it. That will be the case if we cooperate with Russians, US, France..etc on a 5th gen plane. No matter what they claim, we'll be funding THEIR R&D and merely be buyers, not innovators of the plane's major technologies.

3) Since Japan has not built a 5th gen fighter. This is a GOOD thing. It allows for somewhat "equal" technological contribution to the project and real R&D innovation. They are obviously way ahead in many areas.

4) They are at a technology demonstrator stage with their F-3. That is where you want to join a project as it allows for (somewhat more risky) R&D on both sides with lower overall failure risk.

5) Its a great starting point for technological cooperation with one of the most technologically advanced nations on Earth. Just working with their companies will learn Indian companies (and certainly DRDO) a thing or two about management & project execution. It sets the stage for cooperation in the civilian aerospace sector as a partner rather than a subordinate/vestige which is what Boeing/Airbus wants India to be. AMCA should be a launchpad for India into the civil aerospace industry, not a leap into being a subordinate using cast-off technology of the western nations.

6) The end result, given their track record, is more than likely to be good.

In terms of bang for the buck (and I'm thinking more in terms of how India's aerospace R&D can be kick started), working with Japan offers greater gains than working with anyone else because it is challenging work. Otherwise its back to good old screw driver giri and sticking "Made in India" labels on foreign maal.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kashi » 05 Jan 2017 06:02

Not sure where else to out this, The Econ. Times published a report on Raksha Mantri's press conference yesterday.

Strategic Partnership model to be finalised by Jan end, search on for another single engine fighter line: Manohar Parrikar

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today stated that the Defence Ministry’s strategic partnership (SP) model is likely to be finalised by the end of this month. Among other major issues he also said that India requires another single engine fighter jet line and this will be done under the SP model. Efforts are being made to identify the Indian company and Western partner for this work.

Parrikar also said that work is going on to provide the army with new assault rifles. And that India requires another single engine fighter jet line and this will be done under the SP model. Efforts are being made to identify the Indian company and Western partner for this work.

Parrikar also said that work is going on to provide the army with new assault rifles. And that India aims to become a major weapons exporter.

The developments were shared at a press conference in Delhi today. These were the highlights from the Defence Minister’s statements.

1)The SP model is in the final stage and is likely to be concluded this month. A meeting will be held next week to finalise it. He says the model would have been finalised in December but has been delayed by a month due to the year end.

2) Parrikar confirms India requires another single engine fighter line that will be done under the SP model.

3) The SP model is the Defence Ministry’s important Make in India policy. Under the model, the government is to select private Indian firms to exclusively manufacture military equipments for a specified period. The model was proposed by the Dhirendra Singh Committee in July, 2015. The Defence Ministry then formed an expert committee headed by former DRDO chief, VK Aatre, to formulate the criteria for selection of strategic partners. In April last year, the MOD made the Aatre report public.

4) Parrikar said the Indian company for the single engine fighter jet will be identified through the Aatre committee model. And [b]the western partner for the new fighter line will depend on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the financial proposal of the Original Equipment Manufacturer..[/b]
So how long will it take to identify a "western partner" and why only a "western partner"?

5) Competitive process will be followed to select the western fighter to be made in India. The government to government deal will be inked after selection of the aircraft.
There's that word again "western", does it mean the partner has already been determined?

6) Parrikar makes it clear that a competition for twin engine made in India fighters will also be considered, but not this year.

7) Regarding the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal with Russia, Parrikar said aspects of production and technology transfer are being looked into before signing up for the aircraft.

8 ) He also refuted media reports on additional requirement/procurement of Rafale jets as speculative.

9) Parrikar said option for Tejas-Light Combat Aircraft Mark-2, an advanced version, has been kept open. He added the Naval LCA is to be developed only for technology demonstration.
Confirms what Naval Chief said. Perhaps the navy will get some new birds as well

10) Following the controversy of the new army chief, Gen Bipin Rawat, superseding a senior officer, Parrikar said the selection of the chief is the prerogative of the government. Although he added all the candidates were equally good.

11) Parrikar also said, “We aim to achieve a $2 billion defence export target by the end of this government’s term (2019).”

12) India’s Public Sector Undertakings (PSUs) to supply $300-400 million worth military equipments to friendly nations this year.

13) Indian conglomerate Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has signed some contracts with Vietnam for providing ships, which were discussed during a bilateral visit.

14) On possibility of defence exports to Afghanistan, Parrikar holds cards close to his chest and merely says Afghanistan is a good friend.

15) There has been an increase in Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) productivity this year, which is in arms and ammunition, not vehicles as was in the past. Parrikar said approval has been given for fast tracking the procurement of assault rifles for the Special Forces.

16) On a new assault rifle for the Army, Parrikar says four months have been given to the OFB to provide a new design. If this does not work, the procurement will be done under the fast track mode.

brar_w
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby brar_w » 05 Jan 2017 06:22

4) Parrikar said the Indian company for the single engine fighter jet will be identified through the Aatre committee model. And the western partner for the new fighter line will depend on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the financial proposal of the Original Equipment Manufacturer..
So how long will it take to identify a "western partner" and why only a "western partner"?

5) Competitive process will be followed to select the western fighter to be made in India. The government to government deal will be inked after selection of the aircraft.
There's that word again "western", does it mean the partner has already been determined?

6) Parrikar makes it clear that a competition for twin engine made in India fighters will also be considered, but not this year.

7) Regarding the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal with Russia, Parrikar said aspects of production and technology transfer are being looked into before signing up for the aircraft.

8 ) He also refuted media reports on additional requirement/procurement of Rafale jets as speculative.

9) Parrikar said option for Tejas-Light Combat Aircraft Mark-2, an advanced version, has been kept open. He added the Naval LCA is to be developed only for technology demonstration.
Confirms what Naval Chief said. Perhaps the navy will get some new birds as well


Which non western medium sized, single engine multi role aircraft could compete? I think that they looked closely at the financial aspect of the MMRCA and determined that there was quite a bit of difference between a Gripen or F-16 at the lower end and the Typhoon and Rafale at the upper end in terms of Life Cycle Cost. Given the now expanded MMRCA requirement it would appear that if one were hell bound on exercising only imports than one could more affordably acquire larger quantities of F-16 or Gripens and smaller amounts of the more capable Rafale. That way you could grow end strength while also modernizing and getting advanced aircraft. Think of it as the 80% solution.

If indeed they are looking to do one twin and one single engined import program, I could see the Rafale being selected in lesser quantities a few years down the road although smaller quantities under MII will be problematic and frankly quite expensive. The biggest problem here is that if and when an entity like Tata, or Reliance get a hold of the F-16 or Gripen line their lobbying for continued production will start which can erode orders for the LCA MK2..The current MOD and the Government might have the strategic understanding to pursue indigenization at all costs but there is no guarantee that a future government wouldn't use an existing MRCA production line as an excuse to scale back its investment into medium-sized version of the LCA (MK2++) in the future.
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Jan 2017 06:38, edited 3 times in total.

Kashi
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kashi » 05 Jan 2017 06:31

^^ You are right, there are only two candidates- F16 and Gripen. But as you said, once TATA and L&T get used to having F16/Gripen orders in hand, it WILL have an impact on LCA. Unless the plan calls for 2 LCA for every 1 SP-model fighter that is inducted into the IAF. Far fetched though, it seems.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Jan 2017 22:54

is it clear that the 2nd fighter line will produce aircraft for the IAF? or just export?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2017 01:12

Lalmohan, There will be eventually two more a/c lines;
- Near term single engine F-16 vs Grippen
- Medium term twin engine: Super Hornet vs Rafale

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Nick_S » 06 Jan 2017 05:21

First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2017 06:49

Nick_S wrote:First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.


Who ever delivers and convinces Modi.

Tata is also doubtful after the Corus disaster.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby JTull » 06 Jan 2017 18:01

ramana wrote:
Nick_S wrote:First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.


Who ever delivers and convinces Modi.

Tata is also doubtful after the Corus disaster.


Rather sweeping statement on Corus! Care to elaborate on why it was a disaster and how it's related to setting up an assemply line ion India?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2017 22:17

Better Buying Power For Defence Acquisitions In India
http://bharatshakti.in/better-buying-power-for-defence-acquisitions-in-india/

By Lt Gen P R Shankar - a retired Director General of Artillery. He has vast operational experience and has held many important command, staff and instructional appointments in the Army. He is an alumnus of Defense Services Staff College Wellington, Army War College Mhow, Naval Post Graduate School Monterrey and National Defense College Delhi.

He gave great impetus to the modernization of Artillery through indigenization. He has a deep understanding and experience of successful defense planning and acquisition spanning over a decade. Major 155mm Gun projects like the Dhanush, M777 ULH and K9 Vajra, Rocket and Missile projects related to Pinaka, Brahmos and, Grad BM21, surveillance projects like Swati WLR and some ammunition projects came to fructification due to his efforts.


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Prem » 16 Jan 2017 10:18


Rakesh
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 06:02

India has just bought $3 billion worth of emergency weapons and ammunition
http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2017/01/18/exclusive-india-has-just-bought-3-billion-worth-of-emergency-w/?utm_hp_ref=in-homepage

In a move with tremendous strategic import, India has been on a secretive weapons shopping spree on an emergency footing, buying up anti-tank missiles, tank engines, rocket launchers and various kinds of ammunition, from Israel and Russia. The purchases amount to more than $3 billion, persons close to the development said, asking not to be named. Deliveries have begun even as new orders are still being placed.

Empowered committees can take on-the-spot decisions to buy and negotiate prices, cutting down lengthy negotiation processes.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jan 2017 00:48

India & Russia to develop BrahMos missile for PAK FA 5th generation fighter jet
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 833757.cms

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jan 2017 00:49

Deliveries of the BrahMos Cruise Missile to third countries may commence soon
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250153

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2017 13:19

Jaitley: Defence allocation of Rs. 2.74 lakh crore

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby tushar_m » 01 Feb 2017 13:22

Jaitley: Defence allocation of Rs. 2.74 lakh crore excluding Pensions

Defence Pension in 2016: A total of Rs 82,332 crore has been budgeted for defence pensions this time, mainly to cater for the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. In comparison, Rs 54,500 crore were allocated for pensions in the last budget but the actual bill shot up to Rs 60,238 crore.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2017 13:32

Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has increased the defence budget to Rs 2,74,000 crore excluding pensions. Out of this amount, about Rs 86,000 crore is for capital acquisition. Devoid of the pension outlay, the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs 2,49,000 crore.


86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation

Kashi
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Kashi » 01 Feb 2017 13:46

Austin wrote:Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has increased the defence budget to Rs 2,74,000 crore excluding pensions. Out of this amount, about Rs 86,000 crore is for capital acquisition. Devoid of the pension outlay, the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs 2,49,000 crore.


86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation


If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby jayasimha » 01 Feb 2017 16:25

Union Budget of India 2017-18 can be seen here.
http://indiabudget.gov.in/glance.asp

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby rkhanna » 01 Feb 2017 17:47

"If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%"

Maybe adjusting for Inflation? Lets assume 10% increase we are at 5% inflation and Capex being Forex Heavy Rupee sees 5-6% Depreciation in a year. IMO real Def Budget is zero growth.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2017 21:42

Indian defence budget increases by 5.6%
Craig Caffrey, London - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
01 February 2017

The Indian government has announced a core defence budget of INR2.74 trillion (USD40.6 billion) for 2017/18. The new budget allocation represents a nominal increase of 5.6% against the revised budget for 2016/17, the lowest rate of increase for a decade.

The core defence budget will amount to around 12% of total government spending for the fiscal year and about 1.6% of GDP. Total defence-related expenditure, including military pensions, will rise to INR3.59 trillion (USD53.1 billion), around 2.2% of GDP.

The total allocation for defence includes four components: the Ministry of Defence (MoD) budget (which covers the operating expenditure of the civilian ministry and its related agencies); defence services revenue budget (comprising the operating costs of the military, including pay); defence services capital budget (which funds the majority of equipment procurement and development for the armed services); and the defence pensions budget (covering the costs of military pensions).

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 02 Feb 2017 06:27

Details of DRDO's Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM)
http://thestrategictimes.com/exclusive- ... d-missile/

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Gyan » 02 Feb 2017 19:45

I think unlike last year you need to deduct DRDO budget hence increase is 25000 less 15000 DRDO budget = 10000 crore only.


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Nikhil T » 03 Feb 2017 11:10

Kashi wrote:
Austin wrote:Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst



86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation


If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ie/2017/02/m ... fence.html

While apparently increased by Rs 7,281 crore, from Rs 79,207 crore this year to Rs 86,488 crore in 2017-18, about a nine per cent hike, this has been achieved by under-spending the current year’s capital allocation.

The Rs 86,189 crore capital budget allocation this year, is scaled down in the revised estimates to Rs 79,207 crore, which means the defence ministry has underspent its equipment modernisation budget by almost Rs 7,000 crore, some 8 per cent of its allocation.


We have an unchanged Capital Budget in last 3 years. Never thought this would happen in a BJP Govt.
Ack thoo!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 03 Feb 2017 11:37

Many times the decision making process not just from our side but the other side as well with whom we are making deal might get stuck due to genuine reason and it is not possible to allocate money for the same reason , You cant really transfer money till negotiation is done and all Dots and I's are agreed upon , many deal are multiyear negotiation deal and you cant anticipate many thing in advance like Rafale deal for which initial capex was allocated for past 2 years but could not be used as negotiation took time.

So expecting each and every penny of Capex to get used for every year is not really possible for any government , I recollect during congress time half of capex used to remain unused and returned to government by end of FY.

They can play safe and dump that money with some PSU like OFB , BHEL etc and can reuse it later if they cant spend the whole capex but FM would be more than happy to get that money back to reduce their budget deficit.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Nikhil T » 04 Feb 2017 00:14

It is false to say "under Congress rule half of capex used to remained unused and returned to Govt at end of FY". It varied between 5-20%.

Further, this is not a Congress vs BJP thing. The point is something different - there is no excuse for not increasing the Capital Allocation beyond ~80k crore for last 3 years. It typically grows 15-20%, so had we continued the trend we would have been at 110K crore Capital Allocation this year.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Pratyush » 04 Feb 2017 13:36

Rakesh wrote:Details of DRDO's Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM)
http://thestrategictimes.com/exclusive- ... d-missile/



Hasn't the Indian army already ordered spike? So will the procurement budget have scope for a second missile in the same class.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 04 Feb 2017 21:07

Create unit outside Defence Ministry to fast-track defence deals: Panel to tell Govt
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... t-4505063/

Defence acquisitions have been stuck in a long-drawn spiral with major procurements like the Rafale fighters or M-777 howitzers taking nearly a decade to fructify.


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