srin wrote:^^^ Hasn't China also purchased S-400's ?
Not really. Our missile and radar story is a big success, with multiple new missiles coming in. The S400's are IMO a stop-gap.Bart S wrote:Yes, but as part of an integrated national strategy to acquire the tech and capability and not just the equipment, their deals with the Russians are generally cover for full-scale TOT and rapid buildup of equivalent clone systems that they rapidly improve on. Also, the Chinese have much more money so its not a comparison with India in any case.srin wrote:^^^ Hasn't China also purchased S-400's ?
In India's case with the IAF having the narrow perspective of a customer shopping for 'ready' and 'off the shelf' systems rather than a maker willing to work with local systems that are a WIP and not perfect, and with limited funds where we can do one or the other, not both, this is only going to result in an expensive system that we will have to depend on the Russians (who smartly deny us the tech transfers that they give the Chinese) for. And in 20 years when the next iteration of such a system comes around, we will be in the same place that we are in today.
Yes and no.ramana wrote:srin wrote:^^^ Hasn't China also purchased S-400's ?
We should stop comparing with what China did or didn't do?
India needs the S-400 like yesterday.
Spurious arguments that Chinese are buying the S-400 and US will sanction India have kept India from acquiring the weapons it needs.
S-400 is need to counter Pakis missiles like Babur, Nodong 2 etc.
Now if China acquires the S400 what goes our father ?
Does that harm our ability vis a vis Pakis? NO
You are actually making my point here. Why buy a super-expensive 'stop-gap' that will take the better part of a decade to operationalize, when we have most of the building blocks of a local equivalent already available and the remaining can be developed (with the freedom of us owning all the IP and source codes) in a similar timeframe?srin wrote:
Not really. Our missile and radar story is a big success, with multiple new missiles coming in. The S400's are IMO a stop-gap.
Countering nuclear blackmail is all well and good (it is a different matter that the counter can be offensive, something that India has already stated, and not defensive) but why do you conclude that the S400 is the only system that can do that and that a combination of systems that we can put up inhouse like Akash, AkashNG, QRSAM, MRSAM and LRSAM along with cutting edge radars that we can make or get, will not do as good a job or better?ramana wrote:Right Lets not buy the S-400 and be naked to nuclear blackmail form Pakis because the Chinese might have the S400.
Same time the US might sanction our scam ridden economy.
very good thinking.
I'm very curious to know why you think I've even indicated that we shouldn't buy S-400.ramana wrote:Right Lets not buy the S-400 and be naked to nuclear blackmail form Pakis because the Chinese might have the S400.
Same time the US might sanction our scam ridden economy.
very good thinking.
ramana wrote:Right Lets not buy the S-400 and be naked to nuclear blackmail form Pakis because the Chinese might have the S400.
Same time the US might sanction our scam ridden economy.
very good thinking.
Missed your reply yes for Short to Medium range we already have the pieces in place and as i said earlier MR-SAM is superior alternative to S-400 given the price and smaller footprint. S-400 won't be induced any time before 2024 even if deal is signed now.The threat is near term not very long term.
Do you think we have a ready made alternative to the S-400 right now?
MR-SAM is being inducted right now. And components (radar, TEL) of MR-SAM can be used with QR-SAM and possible XR-SAM greatly reducing future costs.ramana wrote:Are any of those available for IAF? Or still in trials stage?
S Band is quite near X Band. L Band is better but not ideal. Per se, just having S Band and L Band is not sufficient until and unless you put out prodigious power (e.g. GaN) and reclaim the range deficit against LO targets.Austin wrote:Its an hybrid PESA and Dual band Radar ( S & L ) 3 different Radar ( 91N6E ( S Band ) /92N6E ( X Band )/96L6E ( L Band )Karan M wrote:Only weakness is that its PESA based systems mostly
The basic radar operating in S and L band are effective agaisnt LO type targets
recent details on S-400 system I posted here from OEM few days back
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7101&start=1240#p2267993
The meter band is key. Basically, it uses Meter band for detection, S Band to get a smaller window (concentrated power) and then a highly concentrated X Band beam for accurate tracking.Beyond these radars they are also integrated with TriBand Nebo-M Radar that covers between X ,S and meter ( 3 Meter ) band
More than AESA, it will be interesting to see if they have GaN units. Those may well bring back the range deficit against LO targets.
As far as AESA goes it is under work for upgrade model ( both radar and missile ) of S-400 system under work
S-400 to my mind has 3 main advantagesKatare wrote:Thanks Cain!0
Second top I guess
Why is the puzzling question and Karan have given some insigts as to why IAF is so keen on this long range SAM even after so many SAM systemss under induction or in pipeline.
Kuch to baat hai sir!
Karan M wrote: The combination of all 3 attributes makes the S-400 a very hard nut to crack and also, very valuable to any AF.
One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
For ground based system it does not matter much because power requirement & mobility is not much an issue as in case of awacs or fighter aircraft for GaN to take advantage , Even the 1950 venerable THD can put in 20MW of Peak Power if required.One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
Advantage of ROFAR in interview with director of KERT http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/4441543Austin wrote:For ground based system it does not matter much because power requirement & mobility is not much an issue as in case of awacs or fighter aircraft for GaN to take advantage , Even the 1950 venerable THD can put in 20MW of Peak Power if required.One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
GaN will give other advantage like low power requirent for same output ( power effecient ) and higher bandwidth available but it comes at a cost but they are focussing on ROFAR for next generation of radar technology including SAM https://www.rt.com/news/397698-russian- ... nic-radar/
The radio-optical radar will be able to see, according to our estimates, much further than the existing radar. And since we will irradiate the enemy in an unprecedentedly wide range of frequencies, then we know with high accuracy its position in space, and after processing we get an almost photographic image of it - radio view. This is very important for determining the type: immediately and automatically the aircraft computer will be able to establish that it is flying, for example, F-18 with specific types of missiles.
Due to its ultra-wide band and the huge dynamic range of the receiver, the radio-photon radar will have great opportunities to protect against interference. Also, due to the fact that all the systems of the sixth generation fighter will be integrated in terms of functions, the photon radar will additionally perform the tasks of electronic warfare (EW), transmit data and serve as a means of communication.
India’s first indigenous technology to search, track and kill enemy drones, has been developed and a working prototype is sitting in Bengaluru.
As with all systems we are literally buying the time to build systems on our own. Hope we find the resources to build and the will to see through those projects in capable hands. India has time and again shown it can develop any system it needs if it really wants to.Bart S wrote:Karan M wrote: The combination of all 3 attributes makes the S-400 a very hard nut to crack and also, very valuable to any AF.
One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
Is this functionality that we can implement in our locally developed systems as well, building on existing platforms? And will buying and operating the S400 give us some clues on building our own equivalent?
The end goal has to at least be developing our own equivalent so that we don't have to go shopping for the S600 or whatever after 20 years.
Austin wrote:For ground based system it does not matter much because power requirement & mobility is not much an issue as in case of awacs or fighter aircraft for GaN to take advantage , Even the 1950 venerable THD can put in 20MW of Peak Power if required.One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
GaN will give other advantage like low power requirent for same output ( power effecient ) and higher bandwidth available but it comes at a cost but they are focussing on ROFAR for next generation of radar technology including SAM https://www.rt.com/news/397698-russian- ... nic-radar/
India has not defaulted on any signed contract. Moreover defence budget are always allocated according to signed contracts.So there is no chance of MoD not paying for signed contract.Katare wrote:Yes, but the budget is not even sufficient to pay milestone payments for the already signed contracts so approving more project is not going help much. When she gets supplementary grants from finmin, I would applaud.
Problem with S-400 is Russia simply turned and handed full S-300 tech to China for reverse engineering and likely doing the same with S-400. So we are spending more on it than China or Turkey per system ( it's likely China gave more money under the table) and with little or no tech transfer or even license production opportunity. China will crank dozens in few years for not even 1/5th price and in other hand going to set us back our indigenous programs and catch up in numbers game.kit wrote:As with all systems we are literally buying the time to build systems on our own. Hope we find the resources to build and the will to see through those projects in capable hands. India has time and again shown it can develop any system it needs if it really wants to.Bart S wrote:
Is this functionality that we can implement in our locally developed systems as well, building on existing platforms? And will buying and operating the S400 give us some clues on building our own equivalent?
The end goal has to at least be developing our own equivalent so that we don't have to go shopping for the S600 or whatever after 20 years.
How do you know India has not defaulted on signed contracts? What is a default on signed contract really means? Did you just created a term from thin air on borrowed from the banking sector to make an argument? The buyer pays as per milestone and builder builds as per contract, if money is rationed, which regularly happens all over the world, the project slows down. No such thing as default exists. You default on loans not on contracts.nam wrote:India has not defaulted on any signed contract. Moreover defence budget are always allocated according to signed contracts.So there is no chance of MoD not paying for signed contract.Katare wrote:Yes, but the budget is not even sufficient to pay milestone payments for the already signed contracts so approving more project is not going help much. When she gets supplementary grants from finmin, I would applaud.
MoD may delay signing new deal and push it next fiscal. In the specific case of these radars, they are to be built by BEL, which is a MoD unit. So it is MoD paying... well MoD.
We can go in circles on terms used in financial industry, however a loan is a contract as well. Defence purchases payments are staggered over the years and that's how MoD calculates it's liabilities. If MoD had defaulted on it's liabilities and flately said to producers that it cannot pay, the equipment will not reach Indian forces or support will be stopped. As simple as that. Do you have any story of signed weapon purchases not reaching our forces? If yes, please enlighten me.Katare wrote: How do you know India has not defaulted on signed contracts? What is a default on signed contract really means? Did you just created a term from thin air on borrowed from the banking sector to make an argument? The buyer pays as per milestone and builder builds as per contract, if money is rationed, which regularly happens all over the world, the project slows down. No such thing as default exists. You default on loans not on contracts.
Sure, Vice Chief is on record, so is MGO.Army vice chief on record, told to the parliamentary committee on defense that money allocated in defense budget this year is not even sufficient to pay for the committed liabilities so no new modernization projects are possible this year. Read it, it’ll give you good understanding of how our govt has neglected modernization of defense forces in the last 4 years.
Why should we pay more if tech was transferred to turkey or China? What's the reasoning there? Also how do we know that we are not getting any tech transfer it licence to manufacture? Furthermore, how do we know that we are not getting some modifications of the existing system and even s500 tech to integrate into our own system?John wrote:Problem with S-400 is Russia simply turned and handed full S-300 tech to China for reverse engineering and likely doing the same with S-400. So we are spending more on it than China or Turkey per system ( it's likely China gave more money under the table) and with little or no tech transfer or even license production opportunity. China will crank dozens in few years for not even 1/5th price and in other hand going to set us back our indigenous programs and catch up in numbers game.kit wrote:
As with all systems we are literally buying the time to build systems on our own. Hope we find the resources to build and the will to see through those projects in capable hands. India has time and again shown it can develop any system it needs if it really wants to.
I have nothing else to addnam wrote:We can go in circles on terms used in financial industry, however a loan is a contract as well. Defence purchases payments are staggered over the years and that's how MoD calculates it's liabilities. If MoD had defaulted on it's liabilities and flately said to producers that it cannot pay, the equipment will not reach Indian forces or support will be stopped. As simple as that. Do you have any story of signed weapon purchases not reaching our forces? If yes, please enlighten me.Katare wrote: How do you know India has not defaulted on signed contracts? What is a default on signed contract really means? Did you just created a term from thin air on borrowed from the banking sector to make an argument? The buyer pays as per milestone and builder builds as per contract, if money is rationed, which regularly happens all over the world, the project slows down. No such thing as default exists. You default on loans not on contracts.
Sure, Vice Chief is on record, so is MGO.Army vice chief on record, told to the parliamentary committee on defense that money allocated in defense budget this year is not even sufficient to pay for the committed liabilities so no new modernization projects are possible this year. Read it, it’ll give you good understanding of how our govt has neglected modernization of defense forces in the last 4 years.
http://bharatshakti.in/dont-panic-the-a ... projected/
At best, we will know all the features and modes in S-400 so we have to develop our own equivalents. We can't really expect to get any detailed insight about the real algorithms and the actual implementation of any of these modes. There is no way for us to get the secret algorithms or any of the other details to make our own S-400 as a clone of the Russian one.Bart S wrote:Karan M wrote: The combination of all 3 attributes makes the S-400 a very hard nut to crack and also, very valuable to any AF.
One can only imagine what will happen if Russia starts producing GaN radars with very high power output allowing these systems to detect VLO targets at range.
Is this functionality that we can implement in our locally developed systems as well, building on existing platforms? And will buying and operating the S400 give us some clues on building our own equivalent?
The end goal has to at least be developing our own equivalent so that we don't have to go shopping for the S600 or whatever after 20 years.
Is it going to be in addition to 4 order in July 2016.dinesha wrote:where India is now looking at buying 12 more naval surveillance aircraft P8i
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/06 ... naval.html
Well said! +108!Karan M wrote:We can buy 12 P-8I and yet we are haggling over 2 Phalcons and over funding DRDO a few thousand crores more to accelerate it's programs. Where are the MOD's priorities??
