Full articleabhik wrote:Govt of India exploring options to buy Embraer's commercial aircraft biz
[Note: most of the article is behind a paywall]
http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/Trade-N ... raer-53102
Full articleabhik wrote:Govt of India exploring options to buy Embraer's commercial aircraft biz
[Note: most of the article is behind a paywall]
Post the collapse of the soviets 3 decades ago we lost our source of cheap weapons, but have not been able replaced it with another or build our own MIC in that time. Instead we resorted to huge imports on commercial terms (sometimes even eye gouging) coupled with reducing % of defence spending has landed us where we are. Massive gap in numbers and obsolesce. If we are serious (and if the US is too) we should ask them for a $20-50B interest loan (or some such arrangement) for weapon purchases from them over the next decade.darshan wrote:There are items that could have certainly have been given by US from their various stocks even if just for the show purpose. So that's certainly a valid point. I have mentioned Javelin system before. Simple diversion of some in IA to be trained to use such systems opens up a possibility that chinese have to account for. Transport aircrafts are another example. Infrastructure building at favorable cost. Imports from India. All sorts of possibilities. The same of course applies to France and others too.
The Indian government is keen to buy Embraer’s commercial aircraft division, said a top-ranking government official. “We are very interested. We are exploring alternatives,” the official said, confirming a development reported earlier by Reuters on Brazil’s plans to reach out to India and China as possible new partners.One of the arrangements the government is considering is a tie-up with a sovereign fund to finance the deal. This is the first time the Indian government has expressed clear willingness to enter the deal.
Fingers crossed for this one.Kakarat wrote:Full articleabhik wrote:Govt of India exploring options to buy Embraer's commercial aircraft biz
[Note: most of the article is behind a paywall]
http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/Trade-N ... raer-53102
None of India's sizeable air market will likely be interested in what is being sold. We have a low cost low yield market that is perfectly tailored to the offerings of the A and B duopoly(a320 and 737). The last E jet operator in India was paramount and we know how that ended. It is a great aircraft for higher yield markets where the higher Casm cab be compensated for but even there it is facing a beating by the current state of the art which is the a220. If a strategic reason can be made out so be it but any potential embraer acquisition is not going to catapult us straight into the Civil market game profitably.darshan wrote:As kakarat mentioned above that it's all about compensating for NETRA mistakes. India has sizeable air market to reduce losses of this acquisition. Technically one may be ahead but other is ahead in producing and selling. There's also diplomatic angle about seeing if any nation does get into the way of getting fleet of AEWACS ready.
I believe that the word NETRA already has been used multiple times to stress what this is most likely about. The rest will be trying to figure out how to get the most out of it.Bharadwaj wrote: If a strategic reason can be made out so be it but any potential embraer acquisition is not going to catapult us straight into the Civil market game profitably.
You are missing a point Embraer is not offering any technology but Embraer itself is being offeredBharadwaj wrote:It is only my opinion but having followed the civil aircraft industry, Embraer has nothing to offer India from a technological point of view. Hal/ADA is ahead of them in every technological parameter. This includes mastery over composites, fighter aircraft design, helicopter design etc etc. The c series nee a220 is running them out of the 75-125 seat aircraft segment. There is nothing to gain apart from boasting rights over the Han people. Today, its surprisingly the Russians who are on the cutting edge of transport/civil aircraft design with the first mass produced out of autoclave wings. Where they lack is service support. We should look to leapfrog in these area rather than buying into technology which we already have figured out. None of our airlines will really be interested in buying either the e jets or the new e2s. These are high Casm aircraft compared to the larger narrowbodys and lose out technologically to the a220. We have to build a civil aircraft industry ground up. There's no getting around it.
Kakarat wrote:You are missing a point Embraer is not offering any technology but Embraer itself is being offeredBharadwaj wrote:It is only my opinion but having followed the civil aircraft industry, Embraer has nothing to offer India from a technological point of view. Hal/ADA is ahead of them in every technological parameter. This includes mastery over composites, fighter aircraft design, helicopter design etc etc. The c series nee a220 is running them out of the 75-125 seat aircraft segment. There is nothing to gain apart from boasting rights over the Han people. Today, its surprisingly the Russians who are on the cutting edge of transport/civil aircraft design with the first mass produced out of autoclave wings. Where they lack is service support. We should look to leapfrog in these area rather than buying into technology which we already have figured out. None of our airlines will really be interested in buying either the e jets or the new e2s. These are high Casm aircraft compared to the larger narrowbodys and lose out technologically to the a220. We have to build a civil aircraft industry ground up. There's no getting around it.
There is no comparison between HAL/ADA and Embraer as the former is mostly Military aviation and later is mostly into Civil aviation. In India most of civil aviation developments are by NAL & ADA is purely Military
If its so easy to develop a civil aviation industry, SARAS first flight was in 2004 but still struggling & RTA is still a paper plane. The successful ALH Dhruv still doesn't have a civilian version. Developing a Civil aviation industry is not as simple as you think.
Why buy Embraer? Because you cannot buy Boeing or Airbus & Embraer is the third largest aircraft manufacturer of civil aircraft today
There's no substitute for what's on the field and known when you need it yesterday. If NETRA's supply chain and know how are in tact then this is the best option available. Simple changes on the same platform can result in lot of work. There's no such thing as let's pull it from one aircraft and put it on another. Even simple disintegration of the original team can result in long delays. I'm not even going into supply chain, batch ordering, characterizations, etc. India doesn't make AEWACS on yearly basis.Bharadwaj wrote:Netra can be integrated with any aircraft that size including ones which offer better performance in terms of range, altitude etc...We dont have to get into a bidding match with the Chinese to acquire a Boeing reject.
And we pay $4.2 billion for that? I never said we can pull it out and put it on. Whatever the additional development cost and time, it does not equate to acquiring an entire aircraft company and its commercially challenged portfolio for a kings ransom. There is nothing in the potential Embraer purchase which will compensate for that. We can negotiate for the erj-145's manufacturing rights if that is something which Embraer is willing to sell separately. That is likely to be not expensive and will serve the need for Netra.darshan wrote:There's no substitute for what's on the field and known when you need it yesterday. If NETRA's supply chain and know how are in tact then this is the best option available. Simple changes on the same platform can result in lot of work. There's no such thing as let's pull it from one aircraft and put it on another. Even simple disintegration of the original team can result in long delays. I'm not even going into supply chain, batch ordering, characterizations, etc. India doesn't make AEWACS on yearly basis.Bharadwaj wrote:Netra can be integrated with any aircraft that size including ones which offer better performance in terms of range, altitude etc...We dont have to get into a bidding match with the Chinese to acquire a Boeing reject.
Documented design that's out in field for which I may still have supply chain in tact and trained workforce. Of course any given day that's what I'll be going with. Especially in present times.
To develop a independent civil aircraft program it is going to cost us way more than what it needs buy Embraer & that's what we have been trying with the saras program was started precisely for that reason in the mid 80s and we are yet to taste first drop of successBharadwaj wrote:Kakarat wrote:
You are missing a point Embraer is not offering any technology but Embraer itself is being offered
There is no comparison between HAL/ADA and Embraer as the former is mostly Military aviation and later is mostly into Civil aviation. In India most of civil aviation developments are by NAL & ADA is purely Military
If its so easy to develop a civil aviation industry, SARAS first flight was in 2004 but still struggling & RTA is still a paper plane. The successful ALH Dhruv still doesn't have a civilian version. Developing a Civil aviation industry is not as simple as you think.
Why buy Embraer? Because you cannot buy Boeing or Airbus & Embraer is the third largest aircraft manufacturer of civil aircraft today
And what do we do with Embraer and its present portfolio which does not sell ? I never said it was easy to develop a civil aircraft industry. The chinese are facing he** trying to get their products certified. But falling and getting up is something that needs to be done to compete with Airbus and Boeing. We need to learn the lessons of civil aircraft design and certification on our own. The 4.2 $ Billion asking price (which is what Boeing was going to pay and is presumably still the asking price range) can be used by us to set up an independent civil aircraft program. Embraer's engineers and design office are valuable but shouldn't we be developing our own engineering resources with our limited funds?
The Udaan scheme (whose total aircraft demand will be relatively small) requires a Turboprop airliner the size of the Atr or smaller. The current Embraer portfolio has nothing that will fill that. A small jet has no chance against a turboprop in the Indian market for reasons of operating cost. Even if you buy Embraer, you will have to launch a new aircraft for a doubtful market size. The Saras will work for Udaan if we commit to getting it certified. If Embraer and its portfolio have any chance of parity against the a220, why are they so keen on selling their crown jewels? Sir, I understand that you are taken with the idea of buying Embraer, but there is no justification for it either commercial or technically. It is even doubtful strategically.Kakarat wrote: To develop a independent civil aircraft program it is going to cost us way more than what it needs buy Embraer & that's what we have been trying with the saras program was started precisely for that reason in the mid 80s and we are yet to taste first drop of success
With regards to sale, in India due to UDAN scheme there is a requirement for more smaller aircrafts, Gov can find ways to subsidise or encourage purchasing made in India aircrafts. In the international market Embraer will be one of the primary competitors in that segment to airbus and boeing is non existent in that segment, just because Airbus has an aircraft not everyone is going to buy only that. Also remember Embraer is not a mediocre company and they have established practices, their prime reason for a stake sale is for developing further
No one knows how they will end up going up about it. All I'm noting from this news is that there's confidence about being able to build more NETRAs on short notice. Would they end up getting more platforms before this is no longer a true statement? No one knows. The other points would be least of the worry for not being able to have flexibility to execute missions in mind at the right time.Bharadwaj wrote: And we pay $4.2 billion for that? I never said we can pull it out and put it on. Whatever the additional development cost and time, it does not equate to acquiring an entire aircraft company and its commercially challenged portfolio for a kings ransom. There is nothing in the potential Embraer purchase which will compensate for that. We can negotiate for the erj-145's manufacturing rights if that is something which Embraer is willing to sell separately. That is likely to be not expensive and will serve the need for Netra.
Very much Sir like you are against the idea of buying Embraer & think is uselessBharadwaj wrote:
The Udaan scheme (whose total aircraft demand will be relatively small) requires a Turboprop airliner the size of the Atr or smaller. The current Embraer portfolio has nothing that will fill that. A small jet has no chance against a turboprop in the Indian market for reasons of operating cost. Even if you buy Embraer, you will have to launch a new aircraft for a doubtful market size. The Saras will work for Udaan if we commit to getting it certified. If Embraer and its portfolio have any chance of parity against the a220, why are they so keen on selling their crown jewels? Sir, I understand that you are taken with the idea of buying Embraer, but there is no justification for it either commercial or technically. It is even doubtful strategically.
Sir you are taking this personally and attributing intentions and terms which I neither implied nor used. You are dragging in the Government to justify a nonviable logic. You clearly do not understand the Indian civil market very well. The erj, ejet and e2 will not work in udan or the Indian civil market at large. Sir, we can develop know how of civil aviation on our own. It requires two things - patience and money. We will be needlessly investing in a commercially challenged portfolio and company when this money can go towards developing a civil aviation eco space from our own learnings. We will agree to disagree.Kakarat wrote:Very much Sir like you are against the idea of buying Embraer & think is uselessBharadwaj wrote:
The Udaan scheme (whose total aircraft demand will be relatively small) requires a Turboprop airliner the size of the Atr or smaller. The current Embraer portfolio has nothing that will fill that. A small jet has no chance against a turboprop in the Indian market for reasons of operating cost. Even if you buy Embraer, you will have to launch a new aircraft for a doubtful market size. The Saras will work for Udaan if we commit to getting it certified. If Embraer and its portfolio have any chance of parity against the a220, why are they so keen on selling their crown jewels? Sir, I understand that you are taken with the idea of buying Embraer, but there is no justification for it either commercial or technically. It is even doubtful strategically.
You are coming to the same point again. Not everyone is going to buy a A220 just because its Airbus, then why is there a B737 when there is A320?
The primary reason for Embraer -Boeing deal was to counter Bombardier-Airbus deal, for Embraer it was bringing money for further developments and Boeing's market and suppliers. Now that the deal is broken and aviation market as a whole is down they are desperate.
Yes SARAS will work & ERJ family also will work. With Embraer SARAS can be marketed worldwide as they have the know how and why of civilian aircraft manufacturing. Please note SARAS is a NAL bird and not HAL's.
Do you think everyone in government are stupid to invest in a useless company & a doubtful strategically as you call it
Netra is just one of the value additions among others
Thakur B Sir, What would be the estimated margin on each netra? 420 million dollars? that will be what is needed for the sale of 10 netras to offset the cost of buying embraer.Thakur_B wrote:Just the possibility of exporting up to 10 Netra systems to friendly nations alone shall offset the cost sunk into Embraer acquisition by a great margin.
I have just replied to what you posted (had even highlighted in the Quote)Bharadwaj wrote:
Sir you are taking this personally and attributing intentions and terms which I neither implied nor used. You are dragging in the Government to justify a nonviable logic. You clearly do not understand the Indian civil market very well. The erj, ejet and e2 will not work in udan or the Indian civil market at large. Sir, we can develop know how of civil aviation on our own. It requires two things - patience and money. We will be needlessly investing in a commercially challenged portfolio and company when this money can go towards developing a civil aviation eco space from our own learnings. We will agree to disagree.
Kakarat wrote:I have just replied to what you posted (had even highlighted in the Quote)Bharadwaj wrote:
Sir you are taking this personally and attributing intentions and terms which I neither implied nor used. You are dragging in the Government to justify a nonviable logic. You clearly do not understand the Indian civil market very well. The erj, ejet and e2 will not work in udan or the Indian civil market at large. Sir, we can develop know how of civil aviation on our own. It requires two things - patience and money. We will be needlessly investing in a commercially challenged portfolio and company when this money can go towards developing a civil aviation eco space from our own learnings. We will agree to disagree.
Boss its not me or BR which has decided to buy Embraer it's the Government
Yes I don't know anything about aviation & buying Embraer is useless, I don't want to continue this any further
That is something beyond belief. An assembly plant must be made mandatory for future buys. Hundreds of well paid jobs. The Russian mc-21 can be used as leverage. A technologically advanced aircraft that can meet the requirements of our Airlines. It should be in service at the end of next year. Anyway its ot and we can continue in some other thread.abhik wrote:Thing is we are buying ~100 A320/B373 aircraft every year (before Covid at least) but neither players have offered to set up an assembly line here (Airbus for example has one in US and in China) - of the huge amounts we are spending on commercial aircraft we are not getting any significant industrial offset in exchange, this needs to change one way or the other.
The entire reason the Boeing and Embraer deal worked was because of the latter's ability to leverage the former's position and negotiating advantage and cut better deals with its suppliers. It brought a portfolio and a large engineering technical workforce and the former brought scale, supply chain chops and the ability to bundle sales within a broader portfolio of aircraft. It doesn't matter where you are assembling a new clean sheet commercial air-liner, the supply chain is global and is, to a very large extent, shared by the entire commercial aviation industry. A very large chunk of that aircraft cost lives in that supply chain. So those same cost disadvantages that Embraer was trying to negate would still remain and would be a significant downward pressure on its profitability. With Airbus having bought Bombardier and playing in the ERJ size/space, and with other competition, they saw the writing on the wall as far as future revenue and profitability was concerned. You can move the entire production to sub-saharan Africa and those supply chain disadvantages won't go away.vera_k wrote:^ If a ERJ deal is concluded, the next project ERJ takes up can be a A320/B737 competitor. Due to suppressed demand for commercial aviation, there is a window of opportunity right now for a lower cost entrant.
Even then, what is the path to profitability which has to solve for the challenges the company faces now, and into the near-mid term, and are the reasons it is up for sale in the first place? How will the competitiveness be improved which is the #1 challenge for Embraer and a severe pressure on it when it comes to bringing new products to market?vera_k wrote:Don't think there is any need to send commercial operation offshore. It would happen over decades as new features and products are developed.
Over decades? How does that solve for the company's current problems and challenges? And what would be the cost-structure variance between India and Brazil, a couple of decades from now? How can one predict that this ahead of time?vera_k wrote:Don't think there is any need to send commercial operation offshore. It would happen over decades as new features and products are developed.
Instead of flirting around the margins by sucking up better tax incentives and strengthening one's own position vis-a-vis unions, the bigger lesson to be learnt here is how Boeing has been extremely aggressive in passing along cost and risk to its supplier base and how it, and Airbus, have constantly looked at consolidating so that they exert higher levels of bargaining power in that relationship. This was something Embraer simply couldn't compete with and why Boeing looked attractive to them.Boeing itself is a good case study with how production is farmed out, and how the company has been slowly moving from a high wage location to a low wage location.
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 2402391043CCS approves $1.06 billion project to establish Army Static Switched Communication Network (ASCON)-Phase IV Network.
Current ATMT will be upgraded to use Internet Protocol/MPLS tech via medium like satellites, microwave radios etc.
This project plus the recent orders of secure radios for both army and IAF shows intent to overhaul both strategic and tactical level communications from enemy jamming and cyber attacks.
https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 9205327872From today's #ATGM firing.
Laser Guided Anti Tank Guided Missile was successfully tested, defeating a target located at longer range. The test was conducted from MBT Arjun at KK Ranges (ACC&S) Ahmednagar today in continuation of successful trial done on 22nd sep 2020.
Old SAMs are still being retained. Is it because we cannot build Akash fast enough or just to save some buck?India ropes in private sector to upgrade Soviet origin Pechora surface to air systems.
Alpha Design beats BEL, signs Rs 591 cr contract with defence ministry.
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 6513078272In a first for the private sector, Defence Ministry places order for 10 lakh hand grenades designed and made in India.
To replace Grenade number 36 - WW II era design.
This is how India's new multi mode hand grenades will look like.
Big achievement for @DRDO_India and the private sector (Economic Explosives Ltd).
Well we would need something for our bases in South India, we cant produce new SAM's in numbers to cover all of India.pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 7121959937Old SAMs are still being retained. Is it because we cannot build Akash fast enough or just to save some buck?India ropes in private sector to upgrade Soviet origin Pechora surface to air systems.
Alpha Design beats BEL, signs Rs 591 cr contract with defence ministry.
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 7353363460In a first for the private sector, Defence Ministry places order for 10 lakh hand grenades designed and made in India.
To replace Grenade number 36 - WW II era design.
Bharat Forge's 155 mmx39 calibre Ultra Light Howitzer developed jointly with DRDO has been successfully trialed at the Long Proof Range (LPR) Khamaria in Jabalpur. A total of 24 rounds were fired (12 rounds in a day) from the prototype gun.