Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

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Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2017 21:56

From perusing countless committee reports, to my mind at least, its clear the issue is two fold. Limited budget from MOF and over-bureaucratese CYA thanks to corruption allegations causing complex DPP this, that procedure.

Kakkaji wrote::)

The darned order process takes too long

Was hoping for at least the MCMV, C295, and the LPD orders to be placed in this calendar year.

And for the SP-5 to fly

Not going to happen. :(

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby nachiket » 30 Dec 2017 00:56

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nachiket ji, a thought experiment. Say GOI have a lot of money and can pay double or triple salary plus expat lifestyle and grey perks to any number of GE personal we need. Will it be possible to hire them , and surely there must be confidentiality agreements they have signed and surlely we won’t get the data even if we can hire them ?

Sir if GOI has a lot of money we can do a lot even with our own designers and engineers. Several low hanging fruits that need to be picked. We do not yet have all necessary testing facilities that are needed to test jet engines in India. GTRE has to use certain wind tunnels abroad and wait till they get a slot to use it. They have no engine test bed and the Kaveri had to be sent to Russia to be tested on an IL-76 testbed. The amount of money we spend researching and developing jet engines (and just about everything else) is only a fraction of what the Chinese do and even they are still struggling.

Jet Engines are complex and very difficult to master. That's why there are only very few manufacturers worldwide. But if we want to make our own engines we need to do the leg work ourselves. There are no short cuts, which is what this 100% ToT claims to be. Even if we get the engineers somehow, the NDA's and confidentiality agreements will come int he way. And those GE engineers will have to use the limited facilities available to them in India. The Chinese have begged, borrowed and stolen everything they can lay their hands on, but at the end of the day they poured in billions of dollars to to do the r&d and testing. No way around that.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Dec 2017 08:36

nachiket wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nachiket ji, a thought experiment. Say GOI have a lot of money and can pay double or triple salary plus expat lifestyle and grey perks to any number of GE personal we need. Will it be possible to hire them , and surely there must be confidentiality agreements they have signed and surlely we won’t get the data even if we can hire them ?

Sir if GOI has a lot of money we can do a lot even with our own designers and engineers. Several low hanging fruits that need to be picked. We do not yet have all necessary testing facilities that are needed to test jet engines in India. GTRE has to use certain wind tunnels abroad and wait till they get a slot to use it. They have no engine test bed and the Kaveri had to be sent to Russia to be tested on an IL-76 testbed. The amount of money we spend researching and developing jet engines (and just about everything else) is only a fraction of what the Chinese do and even they are still struggling.

Jet Engines are complex and very difficult to master. That's why there are only very few manufacturers worldwide. But if we want to make our own engines we need to do the leg work ourselves. There are no short cuts, which is what this 100% ToT claims to be. Even if we get the engineers somehow, the NDA's and confidentiality agreements will come int he way. And those GE engineers will have to use the limited facilities available to them in India. The Chinese have begged, borrowed and stolen everything they can lay their hands on, but at the end of the day they poured in billions of dollars to to do the r&d and testing. No way around that.


I agree. Re budget for RND under which head is the most need ? Is it testing facilities like you mentioned - wind tunnels etc ?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 03 Jan 2018 08:37

India to Buy Smart Bombs Worth $200 Mln From Russia.

India will soon procure 240 smart bombs worth $200 million from Russia to boost its air power. On Tuesday, Indian defense minister Nirmala Sitharaman cleared the purchase plan of these bombs which will be used to hit specific targets with minimum collateral damage.

"These bombs, which fall under the category of Precision Guided Munitions, are used by Indian Air Force (IAF). This procurement will address the deficiency of Precision Guided Munitions in the IAF arsenal, besides enhancing the offensive capabilities of the IAF," Indian defense ministry said in a statement.

According to an official document, these bombs are effective against ground targets like railway yards/bridges, major installations, bunkers, runways and hardened targets. The bomb can be carried on various in-service aircraft like the Jaguar, MiG and other advanced combat aircraft of the IAF. Such bombs play a very important role in strike missions where aircraft are tasked to destroy ground installations and enemy runways.
At present, the IAF is fully dependent on imports of the lethal bombs from Israel, France, Russia and the United States for its fighters. But the country is also striving to attain self-sufficiency on the munitions front. Last year, the state-owned Defense Research & Development Organization had successfully tested a precision-guided high-speed low drag (HSLD) bomb weighing 500 kg, which is the largest bomb locally developed in the country so far.

"During the carriage trials, the aircraft touched the carriage limits of 0.85 at 150 m altitude and completed 6.5 'g' and full roll maneuvers. The structural integrity of the bomb was found satisfactory after the trials," DRDO said after the trial.

In 2016, OIS Advanced Technology (OIS-AT) teamed up with Sagem of France to establish a manufacturing unit for precision-guided guidance kits to meet domestic requirements.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2018 00:10

RM clears the air defence guns replacement MII program.

Three companies competing for this contract.
214 gun systems with spare Radars.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 04 Jan 2018 01:57

I wonder where is the coordination - IAF/IA RFPs are separate? What of the DRDO ADFCR program and the current ADFCR RFP in parallel as well..?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 04 Jan 2018 07:21

India signed defence deals worth Rs 2.40 lakh cr in last 4 years.

India has inked 187 contracts involving Rs 2.40 lakh crore with foreign and domestics firms for procurement of various military platforms and equipment in the last four years.

Replying to a question in the Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said 119 contracts involving Rs 1.62 lakh crore have been signed with Indian vendors while 68 procurement deals worth Rs 1.24 crore have been signed with foreign vendors.

The value of total contracts signed in the last four years comes to Rs 2.40 lakh crore. He said the expenditure on capital acquisition in 2014-15 was Rs 65,862 crore while the figures for 2015-16 and 2016-17 were Rs 62,235 crore and Rs 68,252 crore respectively.

Bhamre said value of defence production by Ordnance Factory Board and other defence public sector undertakings during 2014-15 was Rs 46,390 crore while it was Rs 52,960 crore in 2015-16. In 2016-17, the value of defence production by these government entities was Rs 55,890 crore, he said. (More then 20% jump in Production value by OFB/PSU in 2 years. That is Huge. All credit to Narendra Modi)

Bhamre said the budget estimate for disinvestment in 2017-18 is Rs 72,500 crore.

"This comprised Rs 46,500 crore from disinvestment of CPSEs (central public sector enterprises) and Rs 15,000 crore from strategic disinvestment and Rs 11,000 crore from listing of insurance companies," he said.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 04 Jan 2018 12:46

$40 Bn of orders.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 04 Jan 2018 13:14

Wonder how much of that was just the Rafale?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 05 Jan 2018 03:56

New tender to replace L-70 and ZU-23-2 air defense guns.

India launched a $1.5 billion limited tender in the last week of December for the acquisition of new-generation close-in weapons systems (CIWS) to provide a replacement for its aging Swedish Bofors L-70 and Russian-legacy ZU-23-2B air-defense guns. The tender issued is restricted to domestic Indian firms only under the "Buy and Make (Indian)" procurement category.

The aim is to procure 244 air-defense guns along with 228 fire-control/search radars and 204,000 programmable bullets under what is the first air-defense program issued to Indian companies for domestic manufacture. Each unit will be short-range, with the guns having a range of 3.5 kilometers and a capability of firing 200 rounds of ammunition per minute. E

Each CIWS unit will be used to target enemy aircraft, helicopters, drones and cruise missiles. The goal is to bring the new CIWS units into IAF service within seven years and integrate them with air command-and-control systems used for air traffic and surveillance management purposes.

Domestic companies expected to bid on the tender include Bharat Forge Limited, Punj Lloyd, Tata Power SED, Larsen & Toubro, Reliance Defense, and Mahindra Defense Systems, plus state-run Bharat Electronics Ltd and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

The L/70 is an anti-aircraft gun 40mm caliber designed and manufactured by the Swedish Company Bofors which is now part of BAE Systems. The Bofors L/70 40mm is intended for engaging high speed air-craft flying at low altitude, its chief characteristics being high speeds of elevation and traverse combined with a high rate of fire. The gun is normally fired electrically from remote control. It can also be fired electrically from the gun position by means of the Bofors local power control. In case power supply fails, the gun can be operated purely mechanically from the mounting.

The Bofors L/70 40mm uses a single-barrel 40mm caliber. The rounds are loaded in 4 round clips, although most systems are fitted with a 26 round hopper. The cyclic rate of fire is 240 rpm and upgrade packages offer 300 rpm. The maximum effective range is 3 to 4 km. The Bofors L/70 40mm can fire a full range of ammunitions as the PFHE Mk2, HCHE, HE-T, APC-T, and P-T.

The ZU-23-2, also known as ZU-23, is a russian made towed 23 mm anti-aircraft twin-barreled automatic cannon. The latest upgraded version of this anti-aircraft gun system is fitted with new Electro Optical Firing System gives the gun the capability to engage aeral targets in day and night conditions. The ZU-23-2B is fitted with day and night camera, laser range finder and digital fire control computer.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 06 Jan 2018 07:45

Defence ministry approves 2,420-cr procurements for Navy, Army from Boeing, BEL.

The defence ministry on Thursday approved the procurement of P-8I Training Solution and Low Intensity Conflict Electronic Warfare System (LICEWS), at a total cost of Rs2,419.32 crore.

Under the contract proposals approved by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, the P-8I Training Solution, along with 10-year comprehensive maintenance service, will be brought from Boeing for Rs1,949.32 crore while the LICEWS will be procured from Bharat Electronics Limited for Rs470 crore.

This training solution, which accurately simulates P-8I aircraft and mission systems, will help Indian Navy train and realistically rehearse for sophisticated missions involving P-8I aircraft, at a fraction of the cost of live aircraft training.

The Navy inducted the first P-8I aircraft in 2013 and has so far fully integrated eight aircraft. Based at INS Rajali, these are now fully operational.

In 2016, the defence ministry placed a follow-on order for four additional P-8I, the delivery of which will begin in 2020.

The P-8I aircraft is equipped for long range anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance in support of broad area, maritime and littoral operations.

Its communication and sensor suite includes indigenous equipment developed by defence PSUs and private manufacturers.

The aircraft is capable of thrusting a punitive response and maintaining a watch over India's immediate and extended areas of interest.

The second proposal cleared was for procurement of LICEWS from Bharat Electronics Limited for Rs470 crore.

This system will equip Indian Army with upgraded communications infrastructure to effectively deal with advanced communications systems being used by terrorist groups.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2018 16:19


Back in 2000/1 DRDO had been working on an AD gun prototype but was cancelled AFIK. Few import attempts and 18-years later a gun still needs to be imported. Blame it on another one of those short-sightedness mentality.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5052&p=2159937&hilit=DRDO+Air+defence+gun#p2159937
...

The committee has listed several instances of the services’ changing QR midstream, leading to delay in projects. The Army asked DRDO in September 2000 to develop an air-defence gun system for Rs 17.7 crore. Four months later, the vice-chief reported that the existing L-70 and ZU guns could be upgraded to a level superior to what the Army had asked it to develop. The new QR, issued in May 2001, was so different from the earlier one that DRDO had to short-close the programme after spending Rs 14.5 lakh.
...

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Jan 2018 18:41

srai wrote:

Back in 2000/1 DRDO had been working on an AD gun prototype but was cancelled AFIK. Few import attempts and 18-years later a gun still needs to be imported. Blame it on another one of those short-sightedness mentality.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5052&p=2159937&hilit=DRDO+Air+defence+gun#p2159937
...

The committee has listed several instances of the services’ changing QR midstream, leading to delay in projects. The Army asked DRDO in September 2000 to develop an air-defence gun system for Rs 17.7 crore. Four months later, the vice-chief reported that the existing L-70 and ZU guns could be upgraded to a level superior to what the Army had asked it to develop. The new QR, issued in May 2001, was so different from the earlier one that DRDO had to short-close the programme after spending Rs 14.5 lakh.
...



Didn't DRDO give up that project in frustration because QRs would be changed every few months?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2018 19:04

Image

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2018 21:24

The above seems like the Arjun project in a nutshell. Still running.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby krishna_krishna » 10 Jan 2018 09:45

WTF is going on here, I thought SPIKE was cancelled due to our SANT missile. Now we are back what is the reason for this flip-flop :

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/01 ... -tank.html

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2018 09:55

^^
Defence ministry officials were at pains to emphasize that India has a deep defence cooperation with Israel and has recently approved a huge order to purchase torpedoes for its new submarines from that country

^^ never heard of a israeli made HWT. their dolphin class per wiki uses the atlas elektronik ones.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jan 2018 10:01

If this true something really stinks, either its it is make in India- no G to G.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2018 10:15

IA needs some ATGM right now.
Netanyahu is coming to India.
It's not the whole $500M deal.

So it's being made govt to govt.
The official is giving more reasons.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 13:46


Singha wrote:^^
Defence ministry officials were at pains to emphasize that India has a deep defence cooperation with Israel and has recently approved a huge order to purchase torpedoes for its new submarines from that country

^^ never heard of a israeli made HWT. their dolphin class per wiki uses the atlas elektronik ones.


Isreali torpedo bit is wrong.

But read the bolded part from the article again everyone. It’s written in a way where India needs to bend over backwards to please all the nations that it imports from ... weak mentality :evil:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2018 01:50

Thinking more looks like the decision to cancel the original order was correct as it wont support the Make In India initiative.
However the timeline means IA wont have the needed resources.

So I see this as a stop gap measure to ensure IA has the weapons they need.

Meantime the factory will be running with assembly operations.
And could be the new tactical missile assembly plant.


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2018 20:40

Singha wrote:^^
^^ never heard of a israeli made HWT. their dolphin class per wiki uses the atlas elektronik ones.


Its probably Scutter.
http://www.rafael.co.il/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/1/2201.pdf

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 12 Jan 2018 04:03

ramana wrote:IA needs some ATGM right now.
Netanyahu is coming to India.
It's not the whole $500M deal.

So it's being made govt to govt.
The official is giving more reasons.


DRDO is giving OK to the G to G deal so long as there is no TOT meaning it is stop gap purchase for the Armed forces with further development and future induction of NAG not being compromised.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2018 05:12

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:^^
^^ never heard of a israeli made HWT. their dolphin class per wiki uses the atlas elektronik ones.


Its probably Scutter.
http://www.rafael.co.il/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/1/2201.pdf

Torbuster seems like a great product—hard kill of aucostic torpedo.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 12 Jan 2018 07:38

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:^^
^^ never heard of a israeli made HWT. their dolphin class per wiki uses the atlas elektronik ones.


Its probably Scutter.
http://www.rafael.co.il/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/1/2201.pdf

Not sure if anyone noticed they have pic of IN Ka-28 torpedo being intercepted by Torbuster.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 02:03

John - I noticed that too. So.. I wonder..

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 03:23

Rtd Army Brigadier brings a worrisome report to light about Spike. Comments in the article show a new seeker was added to Spike in 2017. Sounds like Spike had the same issues as the older Nag, a seeker unable to differentiate between targets at minor temp differences. And hence it didn't clear original IA tests. Wonder what happened thereafter, was it trialed with new seekers?

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 7714985984

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 15 Jan 2018 03:57

^^^
And it was about to be imported in masses and license produced :evil:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 07:47

Official sources reported on condition of anonymity that the IA has prevailed upon the MoD to execute part of the terminated tender by importing 5,500-odd Spike anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) and 275 launchers via an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), instead of a commercial deal with Rafael.

They said, however, that the transfer of technology being negotiated earlier to licence-build about 30,000 ATGMs would not be part of the IGA, which is likely to be progressed during Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s four-day India visit beginning 14 January.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/01 ... spike.html

The good news is that if the Spike doesnt work, at least we will have the DRDO-VEM MPATGM for the bulk requirement.

Sort of the way Astra has covered R77 and NGARM will (hopefully) cover Kh-31 failure ..

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 07:48

I hope IA tests the heck out of these 5000 rounds before committing to the order. We really can't afford to pay through the nose for half tested rubbish. T-90 gun sights all over again. Now, with Arjun experience and one and half decades later, BEL is finally testing its own sights for T-90.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2018 04:57

Karan M wrote:I hope IA tests the heck out of these 5000 rounds before committing to the order. We really can't afford to pay through the nose for half tested rubbish. T-90 gun sights all over again. Now, with Arjun experience and one and half decades later, BEL is finally testing its own sights for T-90.



An article about problems faced by Dutch forces in Afghanistan with SPIKE MR and LR.


https://southfront.org/field-experience ... gm-system/

Field Experiences With Spike ATGM System

11Jan 2018



...
In Germany, during its testing phase, the Spike LR was put through various trials prior to a demonstration of its capabilities to government officials. During the trials, it was discovered that when Spike reaches its top-down attack mode, if there are multiple identical heat sources near the target object, the missile selects the first targets its sensors find, ignoring the target selected by the operator.

The missile seems to get confused and does one of two things. The missile fails to follow the specified heat source/optical target or it acquires a wrong launch trajectory which cannot be corrected during the flight.
As a result, the missile just harmlessly slams into the ground between targets. After two additional attempts with different launch position, the missile yielded identical results, with one of the missiles nearly hitting a nearby heated target which was not its primary target. Spike could not locate the original target that it was supposed to hit. It encountered multiple identical heat sources/dummy targets in its top-down attack trajectory and during testing it rarely re-acquired its original target. It was like rolling the dice, to see which target the missile detects and strikes.

The only way to ensure accuracy of the Spike LR is by having an operator guide the missile every step of the way with its fiber-optic data link. During testing in front of government officials all heat sources were removed to show that the missile was operating “as promised” without its operator meticulously trying to correct its in-flight course all the way until impact.

...

In Afghanistan, the Dutch brought their Spike MR systems at the onset of their deployment in the area, around 2006. The missile was put to field testing for the first time when the Dutch military command sought to utilize this weapon for surgical strikes against Taliban-held structures. At the time, the Dutch did not want to rely on the costly and scarce AH-64 gunship, fixed wing support or ordnance of artillery or aircraft for surgically striking the structures. The Spike, in theory, would grant them the ability to strike buildings with an anti-tank missile, the infantry equivalent of a hellfire while having the ability to use the system by their own infantry units in the field.

....
That Spike’s targeting software and the quality of its optics are far below the standard claimed by its manufacturer. This is also the reason why India faced similar issues during their testing and decided to walk away from this system.






Looks like needs wire guidance for effectiveness.

KaranM, How does Nag acquire it's target.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 05:43

The NAG scheme is that the thermal image on NAMICA (Compass) + LRF, is used for lockon and then transferred to the Nag seeker. It then uses that image as reference to home in on the target and goes on to the target either for front attack or top attack modes.

The Nag guidance scheme extended to the HELINA is here

Things become tricky in LOAL after modes.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 05:51

One thing is for sure, what we make is heavily tested and it finally works. Nag is a perfect example. So many years but finally a world class product and hopefully IA orders it in bulk.

Israelis had same issue as Nag (temp issue not visible in IIR seeker) + LOAL (autonomous mode would go haywire). We persevered, but Israelis released a flawed product and made much money. In short, just because we had a good Barak-1 or this or that, does not mean necessarily we can skimp on tests.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby brar_w » 16 Jan 2018 06:01

Israeli sensors and weapons even those developed with US funding have had issues of being non compliant with US Operational Test and Evaluation practices. On some they are trying to align but in both the case of the Trophy APS and the Tamir interceptor these issues have been brought up according to those familiar with the programs and efforts in the US. For example, the USDOTE is unlikely to treat the Tamir as a developed system and if it is ever proposed will likely have to be redesigned or US standard and go through a formal EMD phase and an IOTE. Having said that, one must go into and research the basic points being made in that article since it is made by an anonymous user who is claimed to have been involved with the armed services of his country. No other clarification is provided as to the author's credentials or his/her expertise regarding the points being made in the article.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby JTull » 16 Jan 2018 17:41

brar_w wrote:I...US Operational Test and Evaluation practices...


What's needed are Indian Test and Evaluation standards! All phoren maal must be put thru same standards.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 18:30

Brar, yes - but some of the details in that report seem very hands-on.

Also, here:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3171290/Israeli-secret-missile-launcher-disguised-TANK-finally-declassified-20-years-rumours-secret-missions.html

Some real lateral thinking by the israelis, hope IA doesn't dither over NAG and NAMICA.

Despite all this combat experience, one wonders how Spike has some glaring issues.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 18:46

Spike is a runaway export success. Belgium has purchased them and so has Romania in recent days. UK used them in Afghanistan as well, with success. Germany, Poland, list is huge.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-br ... c1f62437ea

The key issue seems to be the inability of the seeker to distinguish between targets with similar heat signature, and which means autonomous mode operation is dangerous and it needs fiber optic guidance all the way through.

In 2017, it was upgraded with new seekers - perhaps that solved the issue, we dont know.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby abhik » 16 Jan 2018 23:04

Lol, from one of the comments on the spike missile article

ragupta
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ragupta » 17 Jan 2018 00:32

abhik wrote:Lol, from one of the comments on the spike missile article


exactly what seems to be happening with Arjun and all other indigenous products, hillarious but many times true :-)


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