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Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gyan
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Gyan » 17 Jan 2018 20:22

Karan M wrote:Spike is a runaway export success. Belgium has purchased them and so has Romania in recent days. UK used them in Afghanistan as well, with success. Germany, Poland, list is huge.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-br ... c1f62437ea

The key issue seems to be the inability of the seeker to distinguish between targets with similar heat signature, and which means autonomous mode operation is dangerous and it needs fiber optic guidance all the way through.

In 2017, it was upgraded with new seekers - perhaps that solved the issue, we dont know.



Ground launched Manportable IR Guided ATGMs is a super costly solution looking for a problem.

Aditya_V
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2018 11:31

Not really, it can be the sniper rifle supported by LOS guided ATGM's.

ramana
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2018 04:47

SHQ was asking what is this SPIKE deal with Israel?

Cosmo_R
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Jan 2018 05:01

ramana wrote:SHQ was asking what is this SPIKE deal with Israel?


1. DRDO objected. Got the PSU unions to throw their weight around. MoD wobbled because it's what they do.
2. COAS Bipin Rawat intervened to argue that Indian infantry would be at disadvantage to Pakis if they had to wait until 2022 for first deliveries from DRDO?BDL whatever and they need a stopgap
3. Netanhayu needed a win locally in Israel so the deal was that he 'intervened' with his friend NaMo to overrule MoD/DRDO
4. So, DRDO dropped its objections (get this :)) if there was no 'ToT' involved
5. Price was reduced since no 'ToT' was involved
6. Netanyahu get a win, NaMo gets a reduced (50%) price for the same number of missiles because no 'ToT'

SHQ gets to cook you a great dinner.

All sources are public (Google). Just put the various nuggets together and it's a meal. Ironies are side dishes.

srin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srin » 19 Jan 2018 06:45

^^^My take is different:
* After being chosen, they tried to raise the price or reduce the TOT (they tried to do a Rafale on us). So deal got stuck. Retender was only option out.
* New RM took stock of situation: MoD wants to retender, Army wants missiles immediately. So DRDO said they have MPATGM in works, so they can develop that in 2 years. Army says ok.
* So, Spike got cancelled.
* Israeli PM comes and offers better terms that is acceptable, we are happy, and now it is a G2G.

So, just playing hardball with them. Anyway - all this is pure speculation onlee, no data to back any of this up.

Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2018 10:13

Cosmo, you have made all sorts of erroneous inferences, whereas Srin is on the right track. GOI/MOD didn't wobble but made the best out of the circumstances. TOT in most cases would come with such locks we couldn't use it on future programs.

DRDO's MPATGM program has been launched quite some time back precisely because Spike was delayed.
I have posted the talk by their production partner on the Missile Thread.

Question is why was Spike was delayed.

Second, the Spike deal as delayed not because of DRDO but because, as usual, the vendor tried to wiggle out of TOT considerations.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 544556.cms
Official sources in New Delhi had earlier indicated that the proposal to acquire the missile system faced hurdles when Israeli side apparently expressed reservations in ensuring full transfer of technology as per the provisions of the 'Make in India' initiative.


This is not a new thing:
BEL had long been in talks with Rafael to produce its IIR seekers in India, beginning with those for the Python-5.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 989958.ece

The deal was stuck interminably because Rafael did NOT want a GOI owned venture to have the lead stake in a venture. They were worried India would use the tech for its own missiles and they'd lose a good potential revenue stream and their unique advantage.

So the plan went nowhere.

The sticking point in this deal, would again have been two things - the seeker tech & presumably the Spike specific guidance scheme with its fiber optics and software.

Third, now that DRDO has made progress on the Nag front with FPAs from Sofradir, the Israelis are now suddenly available to provide TOT at the "right price". DRDO/MOD quite justifiably figured out the TOT deal would involve lock-in to the proprietary Israeli tech & furthermore divert funds from the MPATGM program.

Further, the Israeli TOT would likely go to some special JV with a first time private partner, in short, ensuring BDL/BEL etc couldn't leverage that tech for future DRDO programs on the side.

Fourth, hence the current proposal to take Spikes without TOT but under a Govt to Govt deal to meet urgent operational considerations but without giving an over the top freebie to Israel.

A plus for Netanyuhu and optics is just icing on the cake.


Cosmo_R wrote:
1. DRDO objected. Got the PSU unions to throw their weight around. MoD wobbled because it's what they do.
2. COAS Bipin Rawat intervened to argue that Indian infantry would be at disadvantage to Pakis if they had to wait until 2022 for first deliveries from DRDO?BDL whatever and they need a stopgap
3. Netanhayu needed a win locally in Israel so the deal was that he 'intervened' with his friend NaMo to overrule MoD/DRDO
4. So, DRDO dropped its objections (get this :)) if there was no 'ToT' involved
5. Price was reduced since no 'ToT' was involved
6. Netanyahu get a win, NaMo gets a reduced (50%) price for the same number of missiles because no 'ToT'

SHQ gets to cook you a great dinner.

All sources are public (Google). Just put the various nuggets together and it's a meal. Ironies are side dishes.

Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2018 10:20

And the bigger point is this: does Spike work in Indian conditions. It would be good to have reports and details on those! Not whether TOT etc is essential and the dastardly PSUs scuttling some MOD deal, because tomorrow if the local program is delayed, we can always convert this deal into a local manufacturing one.

The key point though is whether Spike is the right choice for the Indian Army as versus (say) the Javelin.

Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2018 10:42

Another point is Kalyani has invested in the facility for Spike and Spice (60-70 crores). Cancelling it would send the wrong message for MII. They did so, after Spike became the only game in town post the US flip flops over Javelin.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/06/u ... cloud.html

A dangerous flashpoint in US-India relations faces visiting US Secretary of Defense, Leon Panetta, who faces tough questions from Indian officials on Tuesday. The US State Department has slashed India’s request for Javelin anti-tank missiles, offering instead a smaller quantity that Washington sources say is “less than half of what India has requested for.”

Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2018 10:47

Its also interesting to see how incredible our media is. There are literally no reports on the actual performance of the Spike in trials (one has to dig for them, apparently 7 out of 10 failed trials way back, but no reports thereafter). Whereas tons of articles bemoaning the cancellation of Spike, literally repeating the same talking points. Makes one wonder.

srai
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 12:43

^^^
Paid mouthpieces!

Austin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 29 Jan 2018 17:17

Russian, Indian portfolio of orders for arms exceeds $4 bln

More:
http://tass.com/defense/987316

MOSCOW, January 29. /TASS/. The portfolio of orders for arms of Russia and India is over $4 bln now, Deputy CEO of Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport Sergey Goreslavsky said Monday.

"The total volume of supplies between Russia and India has exceeded $65 bln over the years of cooperation, while the portfolio of orders is over $4 bln as of today," he said.

ks_sachin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Feb 2018 03:21

Here is a story about defence acquisition in OZ.

"Buyer's remorse: Australia's sorry record on defence hardware" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... are_btn_wa

Cosmo_R
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Feb 2018 03:32

ks_sachin wrote:Here is a story about defence acquisition in OZ.

"Buyer's remorse: Australia's sorry record on defence hardware" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... are_btn_wa


They have been only screwing up for a decade. They have a long ways to go before they catch up to us. But it is a horse race.

John
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby John » 01 Feb 2018 06:36

Cosmo_R wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Here is a story about defence acquisition in OZ.

"Buyer's remorse: Australia's sorry record on defence hardware" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... are_btn_wa


They have been only screwing up for a decade. They have a long ways to go before they catch up to us. But it is a horse race.

Another country where Defence procurements are micro managed by politicians and democracy run amok, end result is a disaster.

kit
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby kit » 05 Feb 2018 00:50

Karan M wrote:Cosmo, you have made all sorts of erroneous inferences, whereas Srin is on the right track. GOI/MOD didn't wobble but made the best out of the circumstances. TOT in most cases would come with such locks we couldn't use it on future programs.

This is not a new thing:
BEL had long been in talks with Rafael to produce its IIR seekers in India, beginning with those for the Python-5.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 989958.ece

The deal was stuck interminably because Rafael did NOT want a GOI owned venture to have the lead stake in a venture. They were worried India would use the tech for its own missiles and they'd lose a good potential revenue stream and their unique advantage.

So the plan went nowhere.

The sticking point in this deal, would again have been two things - the seeker tech & presumably the Spike specific guidance scheme with its fiber optics and software.

Third, now that DRDO has made progress on the Nag front with FPAs from Sofradir, the Israelis are now suddenly available to provide TOT at the "right price". DRDO/MOD quite justifiably figured out the TOT deal would involve lock-in to the proprietary Israeli tech & furthermore divert funds from the MPATGM program.


Would be interesting to see the actual numbers being ordered :mrgreen:

Austin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Austin » 12 Feb 2018 22:48

On the occasion of its 10th Anniversary Sergey Viktorovich Chemezov CEO of Rostec Corporation interacts with India Strategic in an exclusive interview from Moscow

Russia Continues to View India as a Privileged Strategic Partner
India Strategic: Rostec recently celebrated the 10th anniversary. What do you consider the main achievements of the company and what direction of development is indicated for the next 10 years?

Chemezov: The most important event was the very creation of Rostec 10 years ago. If this decision was not made, it is difficult to imagine in what position we would now find ourselves. Ten years ago we received hundreds of scattered defence assets. A third of enterprises were in a pre-crisis and crisis stage, 28 in the stage of bankruptcy. On the basis of these enterprises, we created a number of holding companies separating them in terms of various industries. For ten years we have carried out a wide reorganisation, eliminated corruption, developed and implemented a single very demanding strategy, introduced new production sites.

One of the achievements in recent years has been the success of Rosoboronexport in foreign arms markets. Today, Rosoboronexport’s portfolio of orders exceeds $40 billion.

By 2025 Rostec plans to achieve parity by revenue of military and civil products of 50/50 (currently it is about 70/30).In the new 2025 Development Strategy, we set a target for revenues at an average annual growth rate of at least 17 per cent and we are working hard to implement it. According to our forecasts, its growth in 2017 will be about 22 per cent.

India Strategic: How do you see the role of India in the development strategy of Rostec State Corporation?


Chemezov:I would like to emphasise that India is Russia’s privileged strategic partner. In a tough international competition environment, by practice we prove that Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation is not only steadily developing, but also deepening. Our strategy is to further expand cooperation with Indian producers in accordance with the policy of “Make in India”, proclaimed by the Government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Only Russia transfers 100 per cent of technologies to India, which allows Indian defenсe companies to develop their own military production in full. For example, in India, through Russian licenses, production of Su-30MKI aircraft is underway, as also major overhaul of RD-33 aircraft engines. A striking example of Russian-Indian cooperation is the creation of a unique supersonic cruise missile BrahMos. Similar Russian technologies have not been transferred to any other country.

Today, Rosoboronexport’s portfolio of orders in India exceeds $4 billion and the current planning of the Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation is carried out on a long-term basis.

India Strategic: What is the status of the Indo-Russian FGFA programme? There were reports that the program was stuck in connection with costing issues.

Chemezov:As for the project of joint development of a fifth-generation fighter (FGFA), work is underway. The first stage of the project is completed, now the second stage is under discussion. I think that the contract documents in the very near future will be signed. The project is very complex, but the work continues, although not so quickly.

India Strategic: What is the contract stage for the delivery of S-400 Triumf systems in India? When will the delivery begin? Apart from the missile system, what are the other features of the deal, and is there any particular reason for the delay?


Chemezov:The intergovernmental agreement on this project was signed in Goa just one year ago. This agreement is on the supply of the most modern equipment for strategic purposes. Now it is important not to rush things and give both parties time for contract negotiations.

Discussion of this contract is at a profoundly advanced stage. Currently, the technical details of the contract are being discussed. This is a very complex contract with many technical specifications and variables, as well as pricing conditions, production and delivery schedules; everything must be carefully coordinated. I am confident that as soon as the negotiations are completed, the contract will be signed. The work is proceeding according to plan and this pace fully meets our expectations.

India Strategic: What is the status of the supply of additional 48 Mi-17 V5 helicopters to India? When do you expect the signing of the contract?


Chemezov:Negotiations with the Indian side on the delivery of 48 Mi-17 V5 helicopters have been completed; we expect to sign the corresponding contract in the first quarter of 2018.

India is the largest foreign operator of Mi-8/17 helicopters, and they have proven themselves through decades of use. One of its most competitive advantages is the cost of an hour of flight, which is unmatched by any of the competitors. The increase in the fleet of these helicopters is a very logical step.

In addition, the serious modernisation potential of the Mi-8/17 is confirmed by the development of the Mi-171A2 model, which includes more than 80 changes and improvements to the platform. The very first contract to export a Mi-171A2 was signed with an Indian company during the Dubai Airshow recently.

India Strategic: India is interested in creating a single-engine fighter inside the country in the framework of a new model of strategic partnership. Is Rostec interested in taking part in this?


Chemezov: Russia is very strong in the production of various types of twin-engine aircraft, but at present we do not produce single-engine fighters. And our main twin-engine aircraft, both MiGs and Sukhois, are used by the Indian air force.

But if India wants to develop its own single-engine aircraft, and if India is interested in international cooperation to develop this aircraft, Russia and Rostec will be open to cooperation. Thus, if we are invited to participate in the joint development of a single-engine aircraft, we are ready to do this, as it was done in the past with other Russian-Indian projects. The BrahMos supersonic missile is a good example of such cooperation between the two countries.

India Strategic:Recently, India has opened a tender for over 100 helicopters with naval equipment and naval multipurpose helicopters? Will Rostec participate in it?


Chemezov:Russian Helicopters has already announced its intention to participate in this tender with the Ka-226T model, where they will be represented by Rosoboronexport (both companies are part of Rostec State Corporation).

In the tender for the supply of more than 100 helicopters for the Indian Navy, the conditions for all are the same. Whether the Ka-226T is selected or not, I do not know, but our helicopter meets all the requirements presented in the tender documentation, and its technical characteristics exceeds our competitors. We already have a solution for the naval version of this helicopter with folding blades.

Joint venture Kamov Ka-226T with India is a synergetic project with additional opportunities. I would like to tell our Indian colleagues that if the Ministry of Defence of India selects the Ka-226T, India can save money significantly. Thanks to the project for joint production of helicopters, there are opportunities for joint maintenance, training of pilots and mechanics and other related costs.

It seems to me that this will be a reasonable step for the Indian authorities, because they will support the domestic manufacturer in this way, since it is HAL that has a 51 per cent stake in the Russian-Indian Ka-226T JV.

India Strategic: In what areas of industry can Rostec expect to cooperate with India next year? What promising agreements have been signed recently?


Chemezov:In the near future, we plan to move on from direct supplies to joint research, development and production, and the creation of joint ventures. This cooperation is in the high-tech industry between our countries, which was previously non-existent outside the sphere of military-technical cooperation. Rostec is building up its competencies in the field of microelectronics, optics, IT, medical equipment and pharmaceuticals, telecommunications and aerospace technologies in recent years. We are ready to develop these areas together with our Indian partners, both public and private companies

Large potential of cooperation with India exists for our subsidiary company Natsimbio. As you know, India has made great strides in pharmacology and is one of the world’s recognised leaders in the manufacture of medicines. We are ready for cooperation; in particular, in the direction of organising production of a number of Indian medicines in Russia.

The Indian company Ishvan Pharmaceutical is an investor in projects on the transfer of vaccines. Together with them, Natsimbio created the company Pharm Aid Ltd, which deals with the projects related to transfer of technology and production localisation.

In October 2017, an integrator of Russian IT solutions in the international market, RITE (part of Rostec State Corporation) and Aark Infosoft Pvt Ltd. (India) signed a memorandum on cooperation in the development of complex IT projects in India. The companies agreed on cooperation on Smart City projects in three cities of India, the development of cyber security and electronic elections in the region.

ramana
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2018 01:59

Austin, About the modernization program for the Mi-8/17, what are the changes?
Do they have digital avionics and helmet mounted sights?

Lets discuss in the Helicopters thread.

nachiket
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby nachiket » 13 Feb 2018 04:55

ramana wrote:Austin, About the modernization program for the Mi-8/17, what are the changes?
Do they have digital avionics and helmet mounted sights?

Lets discuss in the Helicopters thread.

They mention the Mi-171A2 version which has the VK-2500 engines, digital avionics and glass cockpit. Wiki also mentions a new rotor system. Not sure how different it is and what benefits are achieved.

Why would an Mi-17 need helmet mounted sights?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vips » 13 Feb 2018 19:07

Boost for armed forces as Defence Ministry approves acquisitions worth over Rs 15,000 crore.

The Indian Armed Forces received a shot in the arm on Tuesday as the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded approval to capital acquisition proposals of the services valued at approximately Rs 15,935 crore.

Chaired by Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, the DAC approved the procurement of essential quantity of light machine guns for the three services through the Fast Track Procedure at an estimated cost of over Rs 1,819 crore. This procurement will meet the operational requirement of the troops deployed on the borders.

A concurrent proposal is being processed for the balance quantity to be procured under the ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ categorisation.

In addition, the DAC cleared a proposal to procure 7.4 lakh assault rifles for the three services. These rifles will be ‘Made in India’ under the categorisation of ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’, through both Ordnance Factory Board and Private Industry at an estimated cost of Rs 12,280 crore.

In a bid to equip the soldiers on the border with modern and more effective equipment, the DAC has fast tracked procurement of the three main personal weapons, i.e., rifles, carbines and light machine guns in the last one month.

The DAC also approved procurement of 5,719 sniper rifles for the Indian Army and Indian Air Force at an estimated cost of Rs 982 crore. While these high precision weapons will be bought with ‘Buy Global’ categorisation, the ammunition for these will be initially procured and subsequently manufactured in India.

To enhance the anti-submarine warfare capabilities of Indian Naval Ships, the DAC accorded approval for the procurement of Advanced Torpedo Decoy Systems (ATDS) for the Indian Navy. The ‘Mareech’ system has been developed indigenously by Defence Research and Development Organisation and has successfully completed extensive trial evaluations.

The ‘Mareech’ systems will be produced by Bharat Electronics Limited in Bengaluru at an estimated cost of Rs 850 crore.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2018 22:53

Image

Karan M
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2018 22:53

Ajay Kumar
‏ @drajaykumar_ias
16h16 hours ago

Testing infrastructure of @DRDO_India, DGQA, Defence PSUs like BEL, BDL etc. available for use by industry. In case of any difficulty, contact Defence Investors Cell Email: definvestorcell@ddpmod.gov.in
@FollowCII @ASSOCHAM_PREZ @ficci_india @Codissia

ramana
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2018 01:21

That's from Dr. Ajay Singh, IAS the Defence Secretary.


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