CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

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S_Madhukar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

American cops have no qualms shooting first and asking questions later for normal criminals. Their army would have a similar mindset in a home grown insurgency. Of course they will try first all options properly. Look at how they went on with action at Waco will all the cults and other numpties which was the closest to insurgents or even the black movement. I think our leaders are afraid of action on themselves hence try to squeeze out a similar non violent path when possible. May be Indira, Rajiv examples play on the mind.
Cain Marko
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

nam wrote: What the hell is a "non military" air strike?
Chota bhai of "peaceful explosion" - "Smiling Buddha". India ties itself into knots trying to prove how dedicated it is to western ideals of democracy, peace, kumbaya, non-violence. It will take a while to get decolonized.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/video/watch/b ... hp&pc=U531

6 LeT Terrorists gunned down in the Poonch-Rajouri sector. Finally the LeT pigs that had infiltrated and killed 9 of our bravehearts, have been accounted for. Yet a very steep price to pay. Hopefully the security forces will go hammer tongs after these pigs and kill as many as possible in the valley. All depends on the intelligence and the support provided by the local population. The locals need to be made aware, jst how much they are loosing out on, if these terrorist activities go on.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/le ... d=msedgntp

Terrorist involved in killing the carpenter from UP killed. LeT pig from Shopian
Larry Walker
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

I believe these jungles have been terrorist staging ground for years until now - and the terrain on the border maybe not providing a dominant position for IA over PA. So it has been easy for Porkis to push terrorist through the jungles and IA would have been laying cordons at the edges on the Indian side to encounter and neutralize yahoos trying to break for open ground. We would not have been guarding the borders in these jungles physically and just probably keeping an eye to ensure PA does not infiltrate.
For PA also it may not be wise to invite full force of IA by doing incursions here and maybe it was more sensible for PA to use these jungles as launch pads and staging grounds.
But something has changed recently for IA to enter these jungles to hunt down the enemy.
Heard an interesting news snippet that CDS advised local commanders to wait for terrorist to make movement first to make it easier to locate them - now this is common sense and CDS does not need to tell this to the local commanders - unless the local commanders are actively trying to hunt down something very time sensitive and important.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by sajaym »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesn ... ead/831602
Reportedly, the Commanding Officer's wife and son died on the spot, while five soldiers were also killed in the attack.
:(
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

^ And the tragic, infuriating reality of incidents like the above, is that not enough people are moved enough to comment, if they are aware of it in the first place. Among Indians working in Canada( let alone PIOs who are usually a bit removed from India) one rarely hears a conversation like " Did you hear about that awful ambush in Manipur, 7 people died, for no good reason, just mindless paranoia and a persecution complex, exploited by opportunistic elements" It doesn't take a Phd in astrophysics to utter something empathetic and acknowledging. I suspect it's the same with people living in India itself, barring honourable exceptions. Just a little recognition and empathy. '
Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Just when we thought that things had turned the corner in the NE. This is just so sad. Om Shanthi

The perps, their handlers and supporters must be ruthlessly eliminated
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 13 Nov 2021 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Some balm for the Manipur tragedy. Major win against Maoists in Gadircholi

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 687879.cms
shyamd
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

sajaym wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesn ... ead/831602
Reportedly, the Commanding Officer's wife and son died on the spot, while five soldiers were also killed in the attack.
:(
My preliminary assessment:
- location of attack is a jungle road close to the border so exfil back across border would be easy and quick - it was close to a river as well.
- vehicle was travelling in a 4 vehicle convoy with the CO in second vehicle followed by 2 boleros.
- Some reports indicate that IED was used but I haven't seen anything to confirm
- I don't think there were many attackers...
- Unsophisticated ambush in L shape - one attacker in front and maybe a 2/3 in the side.
- they shot the first armed escort car which was a Gypsy (driver in particular from what i can see)
- Then the attacker shot at CO vehicle aiming for passenger side then seems to have run and attacked convoy vehicle 3 (a bolero).
- And clearly the attackers aren't that well trained in accurate firing from what I can see
- visibility in forest is low - we are talking 5 to 10 feet in thick jungle, so easy escaped via river or walked back across border.

- Assam Rifles were successful in shutting down some narco gangs in the area so expectation is that this is narco related
- A local group (PLA and Manipur Naga Front) have claimed responsibility
- Intel is ascertaining if a neighbouring state was involved (they have a history of arming and training these groups)
- Local tribe that inhabits that area have condemned the attack

Intelligence grid - TECHINT and HUMINT will now be pressed to locate attackers. Known locations will be scoured and planning for retaliation operation will be underway.
Suresh S
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Suresh S »

my suspicion is chinese scum attacking indian army through third parties. Assam rifle is under army control
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by IndraD »

Prem Kumar wrote:Some balm for the Manipur tragedy. Major win against Maoists in Gadircholi

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 687879.cms
Unconfirmed reports suggest that senior Maoist leader Deepak Teltumbde has been killed in a major operation in Gadchiroli. https://twitter.com/rahulpandita/status ... 33857?s=20
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes. His brother Anand Teltumbde is the co-accused in the Bhima Koregaon case (assassination plot on PM Modi). Anand calls himself a civil rights activist!

The killed Maoist Milind Teltumbde's specialty was "Urban Maoism" apparently. No shit, considering that his brother is sitting in the city and organizing urban naxals!

God knows how much intel passed between brothers, how much legal-cover the urban brother provided via all-too-liberal judges, NGOs etc, especially under Congress sarkar.

Ajit Doval correctly pointed out in a recent talk to the IAS grads that a nation can be subverted via its civil society, without resorting to war
Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Suresh S wrote:my suspicion is chinese scum attacking indian army through third parties. Assam rifle is under army control
Certainly. There must be a Surgical Strike 4.0, but not just against the Manipuri terrorists, but also against the Chinese arms dealers/secret-agents/PLA handlers. A handful of them must be found mutilated with their families. China has so far used someone else as the cat's paw. They need to feel the flow of blood at home.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Just saw some pictures of the ambush (Not posting them here) but I think that is worth discussing is how senior officers travel in these regions

Here the Colonel's Bolero had a bright red "COMMANDANT" on its front, With decorated number plate and other telltale signs, Not to mention it was easily the best equipped car of the convoy.

That makes the job of even an amateur shooter very easy in that he doesn't need to think about which vehicle to attack first and which vehicle has the "High Value Target" so to speak.

Now I can understand that senior officers may not want to hide behind anonymity when facing PA or PLA etc in a open warzone but in areas of insurgency where the enemy is faceless and uniform-less this needs to be revised.

If they still want to be seen and have such insignias on their vehicle then at the very least it should be an armored one, Not some ratty old Gypsy or a Bolero.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Press reports state the criminals did not know that family was in the vehicle. The group have released a picture of all of their members....
Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

BRF'ite Akshay Kapoor tweeted why that claim is bogus. It was a well planned ambush and they'd have tracked the vehicles from the source, including from the event where the Col was present with his family.

This is to douse the outrage. The b@stards, their Chinese handlers and their families must pay.

Per this Twitter handle, the Chinese intelligence has a post at the Ruili town at the Sino-Myanmar border, in their Yunnan province. Our boys would know by now if this was the prep-ground for the attack. If true, they must be paid a visit. The Chinese need to be hit at home.

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/14 ... 6389639168
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Looks like 5 pigs halal'ed in Kashmir in a CI Op.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Shaurya Chakra to Lt Col Anil Urs. His team neutralized 5 terrorists at the LoC. Read his citation: it says that the nearby Paki position let loose a violent & accurate fire to take out our men after they killed the first 3. Our boys stayed put and eliminated 2 more.

I hope, once we get the MQ9s (& later our own armed drones), that these keep over-watch on such infiltration attempts. 1 Hellfire for the terrorists & 1 up the ass of the Paki bunker which aids the infiltration

https://twitter.com/akki_bauer22_/statu ... 03/photo/2
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by vikassh »

#PulwamaEncounterUpdate: #Terrorist commander of proscribed #terror outfit JeM Yasir Parray, an IED Expert & foreign terrorist Furqan #neutralised. Both were involved in several terror #crime cases. A big #success: IGP Kashmir

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/jaishs ... 022925.cms
Deans
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Deans »

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... wry-346493

Posting a link from Tribune, rather than the likes of NDTV & Hindu.
It is tragic if anyone dies in a case of mistaken identity and of course in this case, all the usual suspects will scream `human rights violation' etc.

I am posting this, to crowdsource arguments against such criticism, to use on social media. My points are:

1. In COIN Ops there is invariably a different between how something should ideally be and what it often is. Only those experienced in COIN
know what the reality is, not someone giving gyan from his drawing room, who has never fought an insurgency.
2. In COIN in India, our ratio of Security forces : Civilians killed is the lowest in the world. For e.g. US in Afghanistan (with far better tech and intel)
had innumerable examples of deaths from mistaken identity. It is impossible to have 0 civilian deaths in COIN, because it would mean restricted
rules of engagement resulting in more security forces deaths and militants will keep pushing the envelope till they are civilian deaths.
3. If the vehicle did not stop when asked, firing at will be the standard response - particularly when there was a recent ambush resulting in the
death of a Assam Rifles CO (possibly due to someone not opening fire before asking questions, when he saw a suspicious movement in the jungle).
4. If the army was attacked by a mob and took casualties, firing in self defence in perfectly justified. Points 3 & 4 would be standard in any army.

After the earlier ambush. locals would have known better not to mess around or challenge the army. If they didn't, I wonder if in fact the people
in the vehicle were in fact militants. When, in the darkness, sentries at a roadblock, who are told to expect militants in a vehicle with men of
militant age holding something in their hands (they have no way of knowing if its a shovel or a AK-47) and don't stop, there's 2 seconds to decide
to open fire, or risk being fired upon, or worse still have your buddies killed, because the militants fired first.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Cant be comparing a US occupation force operating abroad in Afghanistan with a huge language & cultural gap and no love for the land with Indian Forces dealing with our own people or foreign terrorists or a mix of both. We act more responsibly because we're operating on our home soil. So comparing ratios between the two doesn't make sense.

COIN in J&K and NE are very different.

This was an botched operation, those directing it must be held accountable. Good response by the Govt to own up for the mistake. Hopefully trust can be rebuilt and insurgents fought/brought around without going soft.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MqI0LAJKxE

case of mistaken identity and then locals turning yahoo
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by nandakumar »

It is a novice's question. The vehicle was asked to stop. It didn't. Why was the option of shooting at the tires and front radiator grill/ engine not tried in the first place?
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

nandakumar wrote:It is a novice's question. The vehicle was asked to stop. It didn't. Why was the option of shooting at the tires and front radiator grill/ engine not tried in the first place?
The vehicle description matched the intel. The miners had not stopped at a previous checkpost as they were carrying an illegal hunting rifle. When Para SF fired warning shots at wheels, one of the miners pulled out the gun and all ended up getting suicided by Army in a hail of bullets.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by rahulm »

I cant remember an incident where a non terrorist, aam aadmi mob has stormed an IA camp. This is probably a first and IMHO a dangerous escalation.

The IA is constrained in that it rightfully cannot and should not fire upon its public. Thats a LO issue and for the local police.

The Assam rifles Camp was swarmed and burnt by a mob armed with "machetes and spears" against modern weapons with Assam rifles. Yet the Camp was burnt and 1 soldier KIA. This means the IA exercised utmost restraint when it could have mowed down the unruly mob.

Its disappointing but unsurprising that the gradual (frog being boiled slowly syndrome) deterioration and disregard for Law and Order over successive generations has brought us to a point where no one really gives a second thought to mob violence, justice and vigilantism.

The scary thing about this incident is after Saheenbaug and the Singur border mass mobilisations crippling various parts of infra and economy, what's to stop someone like Dakait Vesionn 4 or his mutant inspiring a coordinated mob from swarming defence camps all over India to cripple them during war time? Whats the IA going to when faced with a human swarm attack?

I wouldn't be surprised if this latest Nagaland incident is studied by the BIF and incorporated into the next iteration of their toolkit.

Whatever happened in Nagaland - its tragic and the COI will bring the facts out to bear - no mob should ever form and take matters into their own hands - either at a street accident or as happened in Nagaland. But we know our LO and Judiciary is far from delivering such a system.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Hari Nair »

Thakur_B wrote:
nandakumar wrote:It is a novice's question. The vehicle was asked to stop. It didn't. Why was the option of shooting at the tires and front radiator grill/ engine not tried in the first place?
The vehicle description matched the intel. The miners had not stopped at a previous checkpost as they were carrying an illegal hunting rifle. When Para SF fired warning shots at wheels, one of the miners pulled out the gun and all ended up getting suicided by Army in a hail of bullets.
Just a few points.
Its high time the Standard Operating Procedures be revised and additional tech and equipment inducted:
  • -Portable tyre killers need to be procured and issued to checkposts and ad-hoc check points in CI Op areas. There are so many cases of vehicles speeding away from checkposts in CI areas and consequently our soldiers resorting to firing to stop the fleeing vehicle. Use of portable tyre killers would have stopped the vehicle.
    -Use of UAV / drones to back up ground suveillance especially of moving vehicles.
    -Better tactical ELINT and synergy between the various surveillance elements and the ambush team.
    -Confirmatory procedures before the suspect (vehicle and occupants in this case) is declared hostile.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by stephen »

"The vehicle description matched the intel. The miners had not stopped at a previous checkpost as they were carrying an illegal hunting rifle. When Para SF fired warning shots at wheels, one of the miners pulled out the gun and all ended up getting suicided by Army in a hail of bullets.[/quote]

This sounds like a very improbable scenario and I dont' know where you have read this. Almost all the households there have hunting rifles, which would mostly be shotguns. That one of them, travelling in the back of a pickup truck would shoot back at the army personnel, in a region that is crawling with SF just does not make any sense. We do not even know how they were asked to stop, was there a barricade? did someone shout at the driver to stop and was ignored? Any driver in the NE knows he has to stop as soon as he/she is asked to, there is no ifs or buts.
People who live in this region know better than to run through a SF barricade. The roads are narrow with multiple checkpoints some distance away, and the last thing that you do is take on the SF with a shotgun from the back of a moving vehicle filled with unarmed civies.
According to some of the reports the SF had been laying an ambush for around a week based on intel about the presence of militants. That these villagers happened to be in the wrong place and at a wrong time is the most probable cause of this incident. All in all it was a blue on blue action with the unfortunate loss of Indian lives.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Saw this on Aaj Tak report.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Hari Nair »

stephen wrote:...According to some of the reports the SF had been laying an ambush for around a week based on intel about the presence of militants. That these villagers happened to be in the wrong place and at a wrong time is the most probable cause of this incident. All in all it was a blue on blue action with the unfortunate loss of Indian lives.
It could even be the deliberate injection of a false intel by the terrorists to the "sources" the SF or MI relied on and thereby precipitate this crisis.

Hence, as I pointed out earlier, there is the need to synergise the various tactical ELINT and surveillance teams, when planning such an operation.

Also, appropriate procedural checks along with additional tech and equipment need to be introduced to avoid such disasters in the future.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by vikassh »

^^^^
100% agreement. I think it was a deliberate ploy to lure the teams in committing something like this. They were in action mode and some one utilized the whole scenario. It is quite possible even the first step (attack on Col Tripathi) was also part of this strategy.

1. Commit some incident
2. Pressure gets build up
3. Feed in wrong information deliberately
4. A tragedy happens
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Deans »

stephen wrote: This sounds like a very improbable scenario and I dont' know where you have read this. Almost all the households there have hunting rifles, which would mostly be shotguns. That one of them, travelling in the back of a pickup truck would shoot back at the army personnel, in a region that is crawling with SF just does not make any sense. We do not even know how they were asked to stop, was there a barricade? did someone shout at the driver to stop and was ignored? Any driver in the NE knows he has to stop as soon as he/she is asked to, there is no ifs or buts.
People who live in this region know better than to run through a SF barricade. The roads are narrow with multiple checkpoints some distance away, and the last thing that you do is take on the SF with a shotgun from the back of a moving vehicle filled with unarmed civies.
According to some of the reports the SF had been laying an ambush for around a week based on intel about the presence of militants. That these villagers happened to be in the wrong place and at a wrong time is the most probable cause of this incident. All in all it was a blue on blue action with the unfortunate loss of Indian lives.
I only agree with the last line.
We don't know what exactly happened, so let's not assume things. If there are different versions, I would go with the version of the Army, not just because I trust them more, but because they were the only eye witnesses.

The region is not `crawling with SF'. They are, by definition, used very selectively and if they are, they do not leave many signs.
The army's presence in Nagaland has also reduced. III Corps, which was earlier used almost exclusively for counter insurgency across Nagaland,
Mizoram and Manipur, is now tasked with the defense of East Arunachal (due to the decline in insurgency). That move will double the strength of
the IA in Arunachal and will therefore mean that China will do whatever they can to revive the insurgency and tie down III Corps.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Deans »

nandakumar wrote:It is a novice's question. The vehicle was asked to stop. It didn't. Why was the option of shooting at the tires and front radiator grill/ engine not tried in the first place?
If the vehicle did not stop, it strengthens the assumption that it's carrying militants. Those militants know the army is going to fire at them for not stopping. The army knows they know. Whoever fires first gets to live. In that situation you wouldn't want to fire at tyres, while the enemy aims at you.
Besides, it was dark and the vehicle was moving, making tyres a difficult target.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by nandakumar »

Deans wrote:
nandakumar wrote:It is a novice's question. The vehicle was asked to stop. It didn't. Why was the option of shooting at the tires and front radiator grill/ engine not tried in the first place?
If the vehicle did not stop, it strengthens the assumption that it's carrying militants. Those militants know the army is going to fire at them for not stopping. The army knows they know. Whoever fires first gets to live. In that situation you wouldn't want to fire at tyres, while the enemy aims at you.
Besides, it was dark and the vehicle was moving, making tyres a difficult target.
Thanks Deans. I suppose that's the nature of the counter insurgency beast. Having said that there are some sticking points. One, the news reports claimed that those killed were coal miners (illegal mines perhaps). In that case wouldn't they have been taking that route on daily basis? Two if they were working on a mine what happened to the others? No way is a mine no matter however small it is, can operate with just 5 or 6 workers. How do the villagers living some kilometres away distinguish between a report (could be from even plain vanilla explosives used for blasting rocks) and conclude that it has come from guns used by para commandos of the Special Forces? Stephen's posted that every on the border areas carry shot guns. Yet these villagers dared to attack the commandos with machetes. Were they consumed by a death wish? Questions and questions.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by stephen »

nandakumar wrote:
Deans wrote:
If the vehicle did not stop, it strengthens the assumption that it's carrying militants. Those militants know the army is going to fire at them for not stopping. The army knows they know. Whoever fires first gets to live. In that situation you wouldn't want to fire at tyres, while the enemy aims at you.
Besides, it was dark and the vehicle was moving, making tyres a difficult target.
Thanks Deans. I suppose that's the nature of the counter insurgency beast. Having said that there are some sticking points. One, the news reports claimed that those killed were coal miners (illegal mines perhaps). In that case wouldn't they have been taking that route on daily basis? Two if they were working on a mine what happened to the others? No way is a mine no matter however small it is, can operate with just 5 or 6 workers. How do the villagers living some kilometres away distinguish between a report (could be from even plain vanilla explosives used for blasting rocks) and conclude that it has come from guns used by para commandos of the Special Forces? Stephen's posted that every on the border areas carry shot guns. Yet these villagers dared to attack the commandos with machetes. Were they consumed by a death wish? Questions and questions.
The total number of people dead is around 15, 14 local and 1 armyman. 7 of the villagers died during the initial incident. Another 7 (6 villagers and 1 armyman) died after the villagers had attacked the team on hearing about the incident. Another 1 villager died during the subsequent protest/attack on the Assam Rifles camp. The total number of people in critical conditions is unknown These are the details that seems to be confirmed at this point.
My assumption is, the incident happened because of bad intel or the intel was good but these villagers happened to be in the ambush spot in the wrong time. These villagers reached the spot before the militants and since the SF was very sure of the intel might have let loose a volley of shot after the driver might have ignored/not heard the call to stop. These will hopefully be revealed in the near future and will give a clearer picture. At present the Govt. and the Army higher up admitting that a mistake has been made would mean that they believe that indeed the first incident involved innocent villagers. Villages in the remote parts of the NE will always comprise of small and a very tight knit community, losing these many people at once is surely a big shock. What happened later is indeed tragic for all the families involved.
As i have mentioned earlier, almost all the households have shotguns mainly used for hunting. That a miner would be carrying one is not a surprise, but that he would shoot at an SF guy with it is very very hard to believe. Also the sound of a shotgun going off is very different from an AK series or M-16 (Mainstay of militants) and our SF guys will definitely know the difference. But if indeed a gunshot was heard then in the heat of the moment a lot of automatic fire would have been discharged.
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by nandakumar »

stephen
I am not disagreeing with any of your points. I would additionally make a couple of observations. One, I have visited Guwahati from time to time over the last 7 years. I know at this time of the year it gets quite dark by even as early as 4.30 in the evening. The incident happened at a place that is farther East/South East of Guwahati. Even if the incident (initial) had happened as early as 5 pm as some news reports had it, it can be quite dark by then. Two, that the villagers living some distance away heard even the gun fire and concluded correctly to be what it was and decided to investigate at that hour with nothing more than torchlights was a bit unusual. My suspicion, and let me clarify it is just that, the guys in the van were set up for the ambush by the Special Forces. The militants or their associates (overground workers) posing as villagers launched a retaliatory attack. The Assam Rifles personnel would have by then have known that the initial attack by the Special Forces was a case of mistaken identity and so held their fire. But when the retaliation was getting out hand they must have fired in self defence and thus another 6 to 8 people were killed. But this is just a perspective. So take it for what it is worth.
Prem Kumar
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes, the part that's intriguing is this: how did the villagers know so quickly from far away that their people were ambushed? And to top it, go there and not just investigate but also attack the Armed Forces?

Unless someone was passing them info to come mobilized.

And if our boys really wanted to "hide the evidence", they had plenty of time, manpower and expertise to do so. That they did not, means that they realized that a mistake was perhaps made and let the evidence stand where it was
Manish_Sharma
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER


@rathorekaran:
1. A most unfortunate incident occurred in Mon Distt of Nagaland leading to death of 13 civs at the hands of our SFs.

2. The op was launched based on confirmed int input. Obviously something seems to have gone wrong. Enquiries will clarify the situation.

3. What was most disturbing was the crescendo of condemnation of the Army and a demand for imdt removal of AFSPA. People used such terms as ' cold blooded murder' and 'murderers'.

4. Not very long back CO of an AR Bn was killed in an ambush in neighbouring Manipur.

Don't recollect the term 'cold blooded murder' being used against the terrorists by this same gentry. At best they condemned it or remained quiet.

5. Point is why in the first place is the army operating in Nagaland.

Certain Elements of Naga society have created serious adverse national security situation by actively colluding with nations inimical to India and are running terror orgs such as NSCN.

6. Naga Myanmar border region has emerged as a major point for arms drugs and gold smuggling

7. These activities have the potential to destabilise NE India hence warrants use of armed forces to put down these activities in conjunction with state admin. Hence Nagaland is under AFSPA.

8. Ongoing inquiry will tell us more reg the circumstances which led to this incident.

However Naga society too has to introspect as to why has this situation arisen. They can't wash their hands off.

9. If Naga society were to take remedial@measures and carry out a course correction, AFSPA will be removed as it would no@longer be required. However Indian State will not accept destabilisation and will put down severely such intentions wherever they manifest. Take a call.

Reportedly the vehicle failed to stop at two checkpoints. Connect with Budgam incident. Maruti car fails to stop at multiple check points. RR unit opens fire, two boys are killed. Hue and cry. 9 military personnel are held blame worthy.

Resultantly orders are passed to dilute the stringency of theses checks and a message goes out to rank and file that if such an incident happens ' you buddy will be thrown under thr bus'. Army commanders publicly apologised.

Fast forward to Pulwama, vehicle moves into PMF convoy from side road. Not stopped at check point. Vehicle blows up in the convoy killing large number of personnel.
There is always more than what meets the eye. Dig deeper.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... TYOgA&s=19
Deans
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by Deans »

nandakumar wrote:stephen
I am not disagreeing with any of your points. I would additionally make a couple of observations. One, I have visited Guwahati from time to time over the last 7 years. I know at this time of the year it gets quite dark by even as early as 4.30 in the evening. The incident happened at a place that is farther East/South East of Guwahati. Even if the incident (initial) had happened as early as 5 pm as some news reports had it, it can be quite dark by then. Two, that the villagers living some distance away heard even the gun fire and concluded correctly to be what it was and decided to investigate at that hour with nothing more than torchlights was a bit unusual. My suspicion, and let me clarify it is just that, the guys in the van were set up for the ambush by the Special Forces. The militants or their associates (overground workers) posing as villagers launched a retaliatory attack.
I was in the NE on holiday last month. It does get quite dark after 5pm. The presence of the army is mostly limited to cantonments. Its not as if roadblocks are part of daily life (far less present than Kashmir).

Its also possible that the miners were genuinely militants (if they are local Nagas, they are quite likely to have day jobs which let them travel across the jungle and close to the border) in which case they might carry a personal weapon (like the Dao, or a hunting rifle) just to give a gangster vibe.
They won't carry a AK-47 when doing their day jobs.

I think the villagers attacked after the bodies were bought to the nearest army camp (which means that they did not try to hide bodies, army was
following its SOP of treating the injured and identifying the dead, neither of which can be done in the middle of the forest at night. If, army being attacked by an armed mob of 6-700, the army did not observe restraint and fire discipline, there would have been 60-70 dead, not 6-7.
stephen
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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Post by stephen »

I think the villagers attacked after the bodies were bought to the nearest army camp (which means that they did not try to hide bodies, army was
following its SOP of treating the injured and identifying the dead, neither of which can be done in the middle of the forest at night. If, army being attacked by an armed mob of 6-700, the army did not observe restraint and fire discipline, there would have been 60-70 dead, not 6-7.[/quote]

The time gaps between all these events taking place is something that I cant find anywhere, just the sequence. That detail might have helped us in better understanding how these events might have unfolded. Till that time we can only guess how fast these events had unfolded.
I still find it very difficult to believe that the militants plan was on attacking the SF with dao's and sticks/stones, knowing how well equipped the militants are. They already had a steady supply of captured/sold off American weapons due to events in Cambodia and Burma till the 90s and the thanks to the Chinese/pakis/Beedis. They were using M-16s with grenade launchers while the Indian Army was still using the SLR, they even had laser aiming devices in the late 90s. That area is simply awash with weapons for all the militant groups. So if they had attacked the SF with these weapons after the first incident took place then it would absolutely make sense that the first group was bait.
We really do not hear about much suicide attacks happening in the NE. Even if the plan was to first create a diversion and then attack the SF, they would have used more lethal stand off weapons than machetes. So till more information comes in, I would say that this was a case of mistaken identity and the later incidents were an unfortunate escalation of the first incident.
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