CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Feb 2010 13:54

jai wrote:May the Shaeeds RIP. Our special forces/paramilitary fighting insurgants and Maoists now need better weapons like the SMAW NE Explosive Rocket. Here's the You tube demo.

It seems everyone and his aunt has an opinion on how the IA should conduct CI ops. While you've right to your opinion, you also have responsibility to research your topic. Please stop shooting of your mouth just because you want your presence felt on this forum.

Did you bother to read up on CI Ops as conducted by IA or even on the utility of weapon system "reccomended" by you? This is what wiki says:

The Shoulder-launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon (SMAW) is a shoulder-launched rocket weapon, based on the Israeli B-300, with the primary function of being a portable assault weapon (eg bunker buster) and a secondary anti-armor rocket launcher

It can be used to destroy bunkers and other fortifications during assault operations as well as other designated targets with the dual mode rocket and to destroy main battle tanks with the HEAA rocket. Recent operations in Afghanistan and Iraq have seen a thermobaric rocket added (described as NE—"Novel Explosive"), which is capable of collapsing a building.[1]

Was it too difficult to read up a bit on the above mentioned weapon system, think about its application in CI Ops in the area under operation and then talk about it? Or did you just see the video, got all excited and pasted the video link here? Ever heard of 84mm Carl Gustaf RL?

By the way, none of the soldiers in the pics posted above seem to be either rushing or taking positions, seem to be on a leisurely walk most of them !

This comment actually takes the cake. Bah!! what do these idiots in CI Ops know about fighting militants? I guess, you can write a SOP for them? And rule number one: "thou shall be seen rushing to battle the piglets when the photographer is in vicinity".

Paging mods: Sorry for the harsh language above. But can the mods please stop these inane and mindless one liners from proliferating across the board in Mil Forum? This is not the level of discussion/posting that one expects on BRF.

Thank you.

jai · Post by **jai** » 24 Feb 2010 19:54

jai wrote:
May the Shaeeds RIP. Our special forces/paramilitary fighting insurgants and Maoists now need better weapons like the SMAW NE Explosive Rocket. Here's the You tube demo.

It seems everyone and his aunt has an opinion on how the IA should conduct CI ops. While you've right to your opinion, you also have responsibility to research your topic. Please stop shooting of your mouth just because you want your presence felt on this forum.

Did you bother to read up on CI Ops as conducted by IA or even on the utility of weapon system "reccomended" by you? This is what wiki says:

Quote:
The Shoulder-launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon (SMAW) is a shoulder-launched rocket weapon, based on the Israeli B-300, with the primary function of being a portable assault weapon (eg bunker buster) and a secondary anti-armor rocket launcher

It can be used to destroy bunkers and other fortifications during assault operations as well as other designated targets with the dual mode rocket and to destroy main battle tanks with the HEAA rocket. Recent operations in Afghanistan and Iraq have seen a thermobaric rocket added (described as NE—"Novel Explosive"), which is capable of collapsing a building.[1]

Was it too difficult to read up a bit on the above mentioned weapon system, think about its application in CI Ops in the area under operation and then talk about it? Or did you just see the video, got all excited and pasted the video link here? Ever heard of 84mm Carl Gustaf RL?

Quote:
By the way, none of the soldiers in the pics posted above seem to be either rushing or taking positions, seem to be on a leisurely walk most of them !

This comment actually takes the cake. Bah!! what do these idiots in CI Ops know about fighting militants? I guess, you can write a SOP for them? And rule number one: "thou shall be seen rushing to battle the piglets when the photographer is in vicinity".

Paging mods: Sorry for the harsh language above. But can the mods please stop these inane and mindless one liners from proliferating across the board in Mil Forum? This is not the level of discussion/posting that one expects on BRF.

Rohit,

While we are all upset at the loss of the two paracommandos along with Capt Singh, I believe this is no reason to get rude and personal on this forum. You similary have a right to your opinions and the same can be expressed without getting rude, I am sure we owe this forum at least this much decency. Mods can correct me if I am wrong in this belief.

Yes, I do research before putting a single opinion on BR, and the reasons for recommending smaw are the following -

a) Thermobaric capability - can bring a building/heavy fortification/bunker/cave down with a single round - does Carl Gustav have thermobaric capablity ?
b) Capablity to fire from inside a building/room with CS rounds without exposing the operator - can the Carl Gustav do this ?
c) Light weight - 7.50 kg for the launcher as against 14.2 kg for Carl Gustav (per all public sources)
d) Known penetration of 8 inches of concrete, 12 inches of brick, or up to 7 feet (210 cm) of wood-reinforced sandbags, and if some sources are to be believed, over 600 mm rolled homogenous steel as well.

SMAW NV's primary function is as a bunker/fortification buster, with secondary function being anti armour, as against the opposite for Carl Gustav. Now how does Carl Gustav better qualify as a CI/CT weapon ? It may as an anti tank weapon, but the terrorists or maoists are not sporting Al - Kahlid ii's or Type 99's against our forces.....yet, at least as far as I know.

Could you also explain why are US Marines and Rangers using SMAW in Iraq and Afganistan when they already also have M3 MAAWS, which is their equivalent of the very same Carl Gustav ?

Cheers,
Jai

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Feb 2010 19:56

The parents of these men are amazing.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Feb 2010 20:35

J&K: Militant emerges alive from debris, kills jawan before being shot dead

SRINAGAR: A militant, believed to have been killed in the gunbattle at Chinkipora in Sopore, emerged alive from the debris on Wednesday and began firing on security personnel searching for the bodies of slain ultras, killing a jawan but was shot dead in retaliatory fire.

The militant, who is yet to be identified, was killed as the security forces fired back after he began firing indiscriminately injuring a jawan who later died at a hospital, official sources said.

Earlier, body of a militant was recovered from the rubbles of three houses that were destroyed in the gunbattle yesterday.

"Body of an unidentified militant and a weapon was recovered from the debris of the houses earlier today", police sources said.

Terming the heap of rubble at the the scene of the encounter as huge, they said it may take days even for the machines to remove it.

The operation to retrieve the bodies of the militants, who were said to have been killed in the day-long gunbattle yesterday, resumed this morning.

Three armymen, including a captain, were killed in the gunbattle with the militants hiding in three houses at Chinkipora, 55 kms from here, yesterday.

The deceased ary personnel were identified as Captain Davinder Singh Jass, Naik Selva Kumar and Paratrooper Imtiyaz Ahmad Thokar of first Para.

Besides, a civilian identified as Ramiaz Ahmad Malla, who was hit by a stray bullet while being evacuated from the scene, is being treated at a hospital in Srinagar.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 24 Feb 2010 21:08

RIP, jawan!
And I wonder what our dear old armchair generals have to say on this matter!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Feb 2010 21:15

^^ hum honge kamyaab, hum honge kamyaa ek din!
Jai Jawan, Jai Hind!

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Feb 2010 21:17

Man, these turds coming back from the dead are quite a pain.

A few years back, one such guy in a army base (where he and his gang had conducted a "fidayeen attack") had accounted for a brigadier and nearly took out two Lt.Generals!!!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2010 22:04

Have they recovered Capt. Jass?

He was probably injured and since he was leading his team,..in the front hence, got dragged in and killed.

AmitNangia · Post by **AmitNangia** » 24 Feb 2010 22:22

So the only channel posting the news about the Captain getting captured and then killed was NDTV. None of the other media outlets mentioned that aspect. I found it strange as I was following the news closely and trying to get as many sources and perspectives on this as possible. And then this morning's papers also just reported the encounter and the casualties, and NDTV's sensational reporting just became curiouser. The latest twist is that I just saw a caption on NDTV a short while ago saying that he was shot and not captured.

I wonder if this was faulty reporting on NDTV's part or if there is something else going on.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Feb 2010 22:26

The turds trying to take one more guy with them is not new

after learning the hard way long ago (my friend lost a promising young captain this way

) generally a couple of rounds are drilled into their beja before approaching.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 24 Feb 2010 22:35

The captain's body was recovered late that night only. By all acounts he died a hero's death. A technical entry guy, he volunteered for the SF and was leading from the front when the pigs hurled 7-8 grenades. He ran through the blasts and the bullets and charged a house where the pigs were holed up. It was while breaking down the door that he and the two ORs got shot. He was dragged in, wounded and helpless. A Kashmiri SPO called up on the captain's cell but by then he had already been killed. PC has given a statement saying these 5 pigs were a vrey tough lot and deliberately drew the SF into a trap. As brave as they get. RIP.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 24 Feb 2010 22:38

Yes, none but ndtv has been running updates on the brave captain and the two ORs. No other media house has bothered. They are more bothered about sachin scoring a double century and Maruti recalling A-stars.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 24 Feb 2010 22:43

Are the 5 turds dead? Nothing would give me more pleasure than to spit on their dead bodies and piss on their graves.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 24 Feb 2010 22:45

Only 2 bodies have been found. Three more are under the debris but a couple may still be alive, says PTI. Two seem to have escaped. They are all big guns in the pigs' ranks

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Feb 2010 23:32

while we are all upset at the loss of the two para commandos along with Capt Singh, I believe this is no reason to get rude and personal on this forum. You similarly have a right to your opinions and the same can be expressed without getting rude, I am sure we owe this forum at least this much decency. Mods can correct me if I am wrong in this belief.

The frustration was not because of the loss of three brave souls.....it was the cavalier nature of post. I was not been rude...blunt is more appropriate term....and I see that you've forgot to counter the part of my post regarding your snap comment......

Yes, I do research before putting a single opinion on BR, and the reasons for recommending smaw are the following -
a) Thermobaric capability - can bring a building/heavy fortification/bunker/cave down with a single round - does Carl Gustav have thermobaric capability ?
b) Capability to fire from inside a building/room with CS rounds without exposing the operator - can the Carl Gustav do this ?
c) Light weight - 7.50 kg for the launcher as against 14.2 kg for Carl Gustav (per all public sources)
d) Known penetration of 8 inches of concrete, 12 inches of brick, or up to 7 feet (210 cm) of wood-reinforced sandbags, and if some sources are to be believed, over 600 mm rolled homogeneous steel as well.

SMAW NV's primary function is as a bunker/fortification buster, with secondary function being anti armour, as against the opposite for Carl Gustav. Now how does Carl Gustav better qualify as a CI/CT weapon ? It may as an anti tank weapon, but the terrorists or maoists are not sporting Al - Kahlid ii's or Type 99's against our forces.....yet, at least as far as I know.

Your "recommendation" was in context to the operation/news at hand and not generic in nature (application in other theaters of CI operations), as if, if the troops had the weapon X, the loss could have been prevented. This is what you wrote:

Our special forces/paramilitary fighting insurgents and Maoists now need better weapons like the SMAW NE Explosive Rocket.

There was a very specific reason I asked you to read upon the CI Ops as conducted by IA and then think about the application of weapon in area under operation. You do realize that in this specific case, IA brought in heavy firepower (and mortars at that), once they realized that CQB wasn't going to yield the results. IA does not indulge in heavy use of firepower as routine to prevent collateral damage. It is used only in exceptional cases. For if it did, we would not have lost these brave souls and others before them in CQB in built up areas. It is far easier to do what Russians did to Grozny than do what IA has been doing. Considering the penetrative ability of this weapon, can you for a minute imagine the amount of damage this weapon can do in a built up area? Especially, considering the fact that Kashmiris have extensive use of wood in their construction. How is the use of a weapon known as "bunker buster" justified in fighting in built up areas in towns and villages?

Could you also explain why are US Marines and Rangers using SMAW in Iraq and Afghanistan when they already also have M3 MAAWS, which is their equivalent of the very same Carl Gustav ?

Again, please ask yourself this question: Is the nature of terrain and conflict and tactics employed by ISAF in Afghanistan similar to conditions as obtained in J&K? Are the tactics/broad philosophy of operations used by ISAF similar to ones employed by IA? There is enough material on IA CI tactics and RayC sir has been kind enough to share his experiences.....they give good insight of way IA approaches and conducts CI ops....

SMAW has application in operations like Sarp Vinash in Hill Kaka area and the ones recently conducted in winters to trace piglets who crossed in heavy winter gear. If your post had spoken in this context, I would not have had any objection.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Feb 2010 23:37

pmund wrote:The captain's body was recovered late that night only. By all counts he died a hero's death. A technical entry guy, he volunteered for the SF and was leading from the front when the pigs hurled 7-8 grenades. He ran through the blasts and the bullets and charged a house where the pigs were holed up. It was while breaking down the door that he and the two ORs got shot. He was dragged in, wounded and helpless. A Kashmiri SPO called up on the captain's cell but by then he had already been killed. PC has given a statement saying these 5 pigs were a very tough lot and deliberately drew the SF into a trap. As brave as they get. RIP.

pmund, thank you for the information. The last thing I wanted to hear was these piglets desecrating the body of brave soldiers.....

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 24 Feb 2010 23:48

PTI Report

Sopore: Among those who battled the militants in this town in Jammu and Kashmir was paratrooper Imtiyaz Ahmad Thokar, a Kashmiri, who along with Captain Devinder Singh Jass, fought right at the front and fell a martyr in a shootout with them.

Unconcerned with the burst of grenades and gunfire around him, Captain Jass led his team, including Thokar and Naik P Selva Kumar, without any regard for his own personal safety, an army officer said.

"Captain Jass died a hero as he led his team from the front despite heavy firing and grenade blasts by the group of top militants without thinking about his personal safety in Sopore operation yesterday. We salute him," he said.

Five militants, including top commanders, are believed killed in yesterday's gunbattle, in which the captain, Naik Kumar and Thokar, all of One Para Special Forces, died.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Feb 2010 00:47

pmund wrote:PTI Report

Sopore: Among those who battled the militants in this town in Jammu and Kashmir was paratrooper Imtiyaz Ahmad Thokar, a Kashmiri, who along with Captain Devinder Singh Jass, fought right at the front and fell a martyr in a shootout with them.

Why do you need highlight that?? because he's a Muslim, Kashmiri, helping Indian cause??? What's wrong with that, better than hailing bullets! Most of the Kashmiris aren't terrorists , nor do they support terrorisms!!! The majority of recruits for Kashmiri Police force and Special forces are locals, who want to rid the terrorists from Kashmir!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2010 01:19

Craig its for those who want to throw POTA at Kashmiris.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 01:23

The leadership in the army, whether at the commissioned officer level, or the NCO level is crucial in inspiring the men to put their lives in danger. The record of the IA has been exemplary in this regard. During the Kargil war, an officer at the level of a Lt. Col. led an operation and laid his life fighting the enemy.

The loss of these three brave men is sad, but it shall not have been in vain. RIP.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Feb 2010 02:28

BSF ambush party comes under attack from Pakistan
Talk about the hunter being hunted! Hope they give them a reply they won't forget...

A Border Security Force (BSF) ambush party has come under attack in Samba sector at the international border in Jammu and Kashmir.

One BSF jawan has been injured in the firing being reported from the Pakistani side.

Sources tell NDTV that search operations have been launched and senior officers are on their way to the spot.

This comes ahead of the Foreign Secretary-level talks between India and Pakistan in New Delhi on February 25.

Meanwhile, a Pakistan Foreign Office statement has said Islamabad hopes that talks with India would be meaningful.

Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir will be visiting New Delhi for a meeting with Indian Foreign Secretary, Nirupuma Rao on February 25, 2010.

Pakistan attaches considerable importance to this meeting, which it hopes will be productive and serve as a precursor to resumption of a meaningful and purposeful dialogue process.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2010 03:10

Dont understand why DDM does not stick to reporting the story in the headline and adds extraneous bits which are often more than 60% of the story.
Case in point see above.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 25 Feb 2010 15:27

Craig, that's for the ppl who think that all Kashmiris want jihad and all Kashmiris want to go to Pokistan. Even a section of the Indian media has often insinuated that a majority of Kashmiris would want to vote to merge with Pak. They relish this thought because it keeps the front-page headlines running. I have myself been with Musilm armymen, trained with them, lived with them, and never found them wanting in patriotism or courage or fidelity. The Academy Cadet Adjutant in NDA in 1995 was a Muslim, S A Rizvi. How many ppl know this. Worse still, many ppl in my country -- many armchair patriots who would pick up a sword/knife against an innocent but not a rifle to defend the country -- would like to believe that Kashmiris=muslims= pak lovers. It's a bitter fact. I wish the sacrificice of Muslim soldiers and officers in the forces were highlighted more to drill some sense into these jingostic *********.
During moments like these, i am reminded of a Muslim friend of mine in NDA. He never stopped at anything, never showed fear, never showed fatigue and was always at your side whenever u needed help, no matter how bushed he was. One of our coursemates once asked him to chill and be more human. He smiled and replied, "You are a Hindu. Your patriotism is taken for granted. I am a Muslim. I have to prove my patriotism." It still rings in my ears. None of us had ever, ever thought of it this way. To us, he was a great friend, who would carry my LMG if i couldnt carry on. I want people to know that people like him, people like Imtiaz, exist.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Feb 2010 20:07

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/na ... -jass.html

Nation bids Captain Jass

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Feb 2010 20:12

and then we have this

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... rport.html

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 25 Feb 2010 21:27

Surya wrote: Reply with quote
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/na ... -jass.html

This is a very difficult situation to judge. The title is misleading... nowhere it says that the armymen were insulted and turned away.
The CISF men need to be commended that they did what they were supposed to do.. keep the area clear of unauthorized personnel. The fault lies with the procedure or liaison procedures.
I understand the deep sentiment in loosing a fellow soldier, but its also a situation easily exploited by the pigs across the border. 26/11 proves that they can come up with new ways.

I don't know the army procedure of bringing a body home but I am sure there are designated coffin bearers. The procedures may need to change but lets not blame the CISF for doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Rest in peace captain Jass..
lets not make this is a political issue

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Feb 2010 21:59

They asked that they be searched???

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 25 Feb 2010 22:26

The army has a designated team in Delhi to receive bodies 'from the top', as they say. At least one member from the slain soldier's unit, officer if it's an officer, accompanies the body and meets the bereaved family. In Unnikrishnan's case, quite a few NSG officers and those from his parent unit accompanied the body and virtually lived in their house for some days to support the parents. Some of them were apparently witness to the ugly incident with Achutanandan.

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » 26 Feb 2010 02:05

Salutes my heroes

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » 26 Feb 2010 02:24

Marten wrote:
ssmitra wrote:The CISF men need to be commended that they did what they were supposed to do.. keep the area clear of unauthorized personnel.
The procedures may need to change but lets not blame the CISF for doing what they were supposed to be doing.
Please allow me to call BS on the CISF personnel. No offense but one is not sure whether you're aware this is not the bonded warehouse and almost any agent can walk you in for Rs 500. CISF personnel are also involved in the cut. No reason to pretend procedures will be strictly enforced only for the Army. Don't get worked up over this - my brother was in charge of air cargo operations for his company, and I've walked into both Mumbai and ND without any shipment receipts or permission to be there other than a zone pass. The staff even accompanies you inside so let's drop the pretence that they're strict...

RIP Captain Jass.

What CISF did is BS... No procedure or rule is greater than our Military, our Military is only second to our President, these police people are a bunch of losers...

And RIP Captain Jass..Naik Selva and Naik Imtiyaz Ahmed

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Feb 2010 02:36

Ricky wrote:What CISF did is BS... No procedure or rule is greater than our Military, our Military is only second to our President, these police people are a bunch of losers...

And RIP Captain Jass..Naik Selva and Naik Imtiyaz Ahmed

What are you smoking??? Ajmal Kasab was apprehended by a POLICE PERSONNEL!!!! that too with a LATHI!!! taking fire from AK-47's!!!
I understand that the men should have been allowed but, CISF had to follow their own rules and protocols as well!! and there is no point in blaming CISF alone, as Airport Authorities, failed to Sympathize as well.
I certainly agree that the men should have been allowed to escort the body and pay their homage with their families, but blaming CISF and putting down their valor is certainly NOT acceptable!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Feb 2010 03:12

So Imitiaz Ahmed is the 2nd ex-NSG commando who took part in Mumbai ops to die after returning to his parent unit - 1st one was one of the guys who died in the Haphruda forest encounter, almost a year ago.

How many pigs have been recovered so far?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 26 Feb 2010 07:15

Its really irritating how 2 pigs can kill an army captain and an ex-NSG personnel ?
Where are we lagging ? where they have edge??

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 26 Feb 2010 07:32

Samay wrote:Its really irritating how 2 pigs can kill an army captain and an ex-NSG personnel ?
Where are we lagging ? where they have edge??

Hmm, maybe better training ? Better tactics ? Better co-ordination ? Better vests ? Hindsight is always 20/20. Hopefully, the local army commanders examine what happened in this particular fiasco, learn from it and modify their OP. Thats the most that can be hoped.

Also, lots of the local malcontents support these terrorists. IMO it is absolutely absurd that militants so often hold out in houses in the middle of town and the locals seems to be utterly bewildered. The only logical conclusion is their active collusion. These terrorists are able to gain superior intelligence of troop movements and police activity through local malcontents and other infiltrated terrorists. In the end, no matter how many troops you have, it comes down to superior information and superior propaganda skills.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Feb 2010 07:46

Could you wait till the embers have died down before casting aspersions on training, tactics????

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Feb 2010 10:45

Samay wrote:Its really irritating how 2 pigs can kill an army captain and an ex-NSG personnel ?
Where are we lagging ? where they have edge??

COIN is dirty and mind numbing - sometimes it can happen that even elite SF get caught in the crossfire - after all they are humans of flesh and blood too. Just because SF are highly trained doesn't make them Hollywood Rambos - that would be ignoring reality.

And irritating is hardly the choice of word I would use to describe this incident. It is insulting to the memory of the 3 who died.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Feb 2010 10:46

Brando wrote: Hmm, maybe better training ? Better tactics ? Better co-ordination ? Better vests ?

...and the source of this nugget of wisdom being?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 26 Feb 2010 11:12

are there any mobile op-theaters not just ambulances so that docs can operate then and there? these vehicles & medical personnel can be positioned close to the ops area

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Feb 2010 11:19

^^^ In conventional war they have mobile hospital units (including OTs)...never heard of it in COIN. In COIN usually they will try to have fast casevac by vehicle, chopper etc.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 26 Feb 2010 11:44

its not an expensive proposition, hopefully dead on arrival statistics or numbers of those who fight for life in the hospital for a couple of days might prompt such measures