CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 16:42

The problem is the state govenrments and local politicians who are very weak and thus the maos are alive. I think the greyhounds need to be called in and they need to be united and become part of the COBRA elite for national level anti mao and anti factionist rebels. Greyhounds have tremondous experience, plus also a need to infiltrate the maos as well ,covert undercover infiltrations are also needed to get to the top guys. Why in the world cant they simly use those short range and medium range survaillance radars, have every square inch of those forests monitored using those survaillance radars, these radars can easily pick up hundreds of moving targets and have proven very effective against cross border insurgency. a few upgrades which allow for long range detections plus a few uavs in every state polic's inventory will go a logn way in tracking this disease. besides these survaillance radars can be networked for a nice big picture, large movements can easily be picked up certainly the type they talk about this morning with a minimum of 350+ maos attacking. why cant we equip each state with its own set of observation helos, armed/ transport helos and uavs, why cant we simply order more dhruvs for the state police forces. why is it that i saw BSF chopper pickup the dead of CRPF, i think each organization should be a self contained unit, with their own helos, for attack, transport, uavs, radars, bpjs, new rifles, mortars, and field guns, new gen MPVs. i think its high time we simply overhaul our entire security infrastructure. why in the world dont we control the high ground in these forests, set up camps and ground survaillance radars and monitor those dense areas.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 Apr 2010 17:02

This has got to be the worst ambush ever in India's COIN history

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Apr 2010 17:38

Jagan wrote:This has got to be the worst ambush ever in India's COIN history

The Maoists did what the NE militants and the Pakis(in J&K) couldn't do from last 60 years, kill 70+ troopers at a time.

Am assuming that this ambush will go into the manual of every terror group as compulsory reading!!!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Apr 2010 18:11

Scores of Indian soldiers killed in Maoist ambushes

Maoist rebels have killed at least 72 Indian soldiers in a series of attacks on security convoys in the central state of Chhattisgarh, officials say.

Troops were on patrol in dense jungle in a remote part of Dantewada district when rebels opened fire on them and set off explosives, police say.

Rescue teams were also ambushed. Police say fighting is continuing.

It is the biggest loss of life security forces have suffered since launching a recent offensive against the rebels.

................

'Trap'

Details of the attacks in Dantewada district remain sketchy. Police say the rebels initially attacked a convoy of the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in the Talmetla area.

However, India's Home Minister P Chidambaram said it appeared that the forces had "walked" into a rebel ambush.

"Something has gone very wrong. They seem to have walked into a trap set by the [Maoists] and casualties are quite high," he said.

RK Vij, a spokesman for the CRPF, told the BBC that 67 bodies of security personnel had been recovered from the site of the fighting.

"The injured troops have been evacuated by helicopter. More reinforcements have been sent," Mr Vij said.

The rebels also attacked troops sent to rescue their colleagues, police said.

"Fighting is still carrying on in the area, and we're having great difficulty getting news from there," police official Ashok Dwivedi told the Reuters news agency from Chhattisgarh state capital, Raipur. So much for equipping your forces with a Command Center, and other gears deemed necessary to tackle this menace!
.................
Mr Chidambaram has said troops will intensify the offensive if the rebels do not renounce violence and enter peace talks.

The Maoists want four senior leaders freed from jail and the offensive halted before any talks.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described the Maoist insurgency as India's "greatest internal security challenge".

ALL TALK AND NO WALK.. This is the TYPICAL Congress Mentality @ time I feel they are nothing but Hijadas Even a cat fights for her cubs, and here you have the Indian government who is still keeping the option of TALKS Open, after they kill your own Security Forces??? Whatever happen to HONOR AND INTEGRITY??? Naapak saale!

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 06 Apr 2010 18:12

Samay wrote:
lets see a Real scenario: tommorrow he will suspend/transfer some officilas will guarantee more actions and then after 2 days , TV channels will be flooded with stories of sania mirza , IPL ,etc
Nobody cares, because it doesnt affect their vote banks ,or unless naxals reach delhi !..

It did not take two days. It took 2 hours. Every single news channel is back on Sania-Shoaib. Arey dub maro saalo. These snakes are the ears and eyes of our country? What country is this where a stupid marriage is bigger than massacare of 85 brave jawaans? Aak-thu is less for these. I have tears in my eyes for those who died, but can't do anything other than this. The state of my nation!

Siddhartha · Post by **Siddhartha** » 06 Apr 2010 18:13

This has happened in past and will continue to happen in all the states where Congress is not in power. Somebody somewhere in the corridor of power has not put a file (intelligence?) in the right place at the right time. Now he will come up and say,I have already warned. Congress has done this for decades in NE, Assam or Punjab. Not directly instigating the terrorism but just delaying some procedures just to show how callous the state Govt is and that has created the demons.
CRPF being a central agency doesn't necessarily depend on state govt intelligence inputs rather they should or would get it from their own or IB. Since they were deployed recently they might not get time to build their own resources. So it must be IB and state. What makes me puzzled is that how come the presence of 1000 armed men remained unnoticed to any intelligence machinery of Republic of India just like Silda (which is again a non-congress state).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Apr 2010 18:43

IMHO it comes down to manpower.

Many moons ago, I was talking to two officers fresh out of CI Ops in J&K. One of them was telling me about this encounter he and his patrol were part of. He was towards the rear of the patrol when he happened to break off for a few yards following a trail of minor refuse(gutka packets and the like). The terrain was hilly and he'd broken off on a trail sloping down. He started to turn around to join his party and found himself staring at a Afghani militant six feet in front of him, crouched behind a mound. Well apparently soldiers are taught to drop the ground instantaneously during training and that's what this fella did while firing his AK. The most amazing part - the militant despite the advantage of surprise still got a face-full of lead. They later managed to get couple of the FM's mates as well.

Anyways I digress. When I asked him why the militants didn't open fire when they spotted the patrol, he was dismissive. He said 'they're dead the second they do' or words to that effect. Within seconds the radio call goes out and they have a cordon established quickly. Even if the militants do manage to inflict casualties, they'll be no getting away with it. And that in IMVHO is the problem in the Naxal areas. Either the manpower isn't available, or it isn't mobile enough or it isn't competent enough. Then again, maybe we simply aren't hearing about the culling of Maoist ranks because its not (for whatever reason) trumpeted by the security forces.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Apr 2010 18:56

VIDEO: 75 CRPF JAWANS DEAD
Show's that a DHRUV is being used, and also exposes the lackluster gears given to these jawans. No radio sets, no BP Jackets, no MPV to counter IED's, no UAV support feed to get detail recce of their terrain or a heads up! God bless these BRAVE souls for going in WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. They are KNOWINGLY entering a DEATH TRAP. RIP and my Symphaties to them. PC Should HANG himself in SHAME for not equipping these forces correctly!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 06 Apr 2010 18:57

This is extremely sad and outrageous. 75 JAWANS? As jagan ponted out, the Naxalites are doing what porkis and NE militants could never manage! And on top of that, we have a political leadership, which doesn't have a set of what every male has.
Fine, do not bring in the Army. But why in the world can't they equip our CPOs properly? Why can't they provide intelligence support to them? Why is the option of "talks" still open with cold-blooded killers like these? These are not a bunch of frustrated tribals and farmers. They are the scum of the earth, who deserve to be crushed and beaten to a pulp without any mercy. If the anger emanating from this BR forum can be somehow converted into bullets (zeroed in on these mao pigs), then God save the Naxals, they'll be cut to pieces like a paper shredder shreds paper!

To fellow BRFites Is the following scenerio possible :
Is it possible that the MHA decides to work with Army behind closed doors. Of course they cannot declare that in public for the fear of being targeted by Human rights groups. Under this agreement they decide to employ some units of highly trained RR or Ghatak's disguised as CRPF guys. As far as difficuly in understanding the terrain & local language is concerned CRPF is in no better position that RR or Ghatak. To overcome that, they have the local police. But with this the end result will be in favour of us.

I like this idea very much. Which human rights group or mediaperson will go and check where the soldier is from? As long as he wears the camo and insignia of CPOs, everything will be fine! Though, we still have to deal with the problem of the Army being stretched thin as it is.
A more feasible option will be to rope in the Greyhounds. Together with the CPOs, they can rip apart these smug-faced scum!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Apr 2010 18:59

The sequence of events seems to be thus:
1. Two maoists indulge in a fake assault, get injured and lure the CRPF company into the jungle road where 1000+ maoists lay waiting on both sides of the road.

2. When the CRPF company comes into the kill zone, the maoists set off a land mine to take out the lead vehicle, blocking the troops advance.

3. Indiscriminate firing takes place from both sides of the road with the CRPF men trapped in the middle.
Almost the entire company gets wiped out. I am sure there will have been maoist casulties as well, but with them hiding in the woods in vantage points and the CRPF on an unprotected road this was a one way contest.

Reminds one of the Jaffna heliborne assault on an LTTE stronghold by the Indian Army. The troops were dropped in the middle of an ambush with disastrous results.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 06 Apr 2010 19:08

Gagan wrote:The sequence of events seems to be thus:
1. Two maoists indulge in a fake assault, get injured and lure the CRPF company into the jungle road where 1000+ maoists lay waiting on both sides of the road.

2. When the CRPF company comes into the kill zone, the maoists set off a land mine to take out the lead vehicle, blocking the troops advance.

3. Indiscriminate firing takes place from both sides of the road with the CRPF men trapped in the middle.
Almost the entire company gets wiped out. I am sure there will have been maoist casulties as well, but with them hiding in the woods in vantage points and the CRPF on an unprotected road this was a one way contest.

Reminds one of the Jaffna heliborne assault on an LTTE stronghold by the Indian Army. The troops were dropped in the middle of an ambush with disastrous results.

Reminds me of Battle of Trebia between Romans and Hannibal Barca.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Apr 2010 19:17

Based on the news reports can anyone gauge the range at which the engagement took place? The reason I ask is ramana posted a link yesterday that deals with ambushes being carried out in Afghanistan by the Taliban. However it does mention that they are not very effective in inflicting heavy casualties due to large ranges of engagement, bad quality weapons and ammo and very poor markmanship(firing on full auto etc).
Does this signify that the maoists are somehow training themselves better?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 20:41

Maoist rebels kill 75 troops in eastern India

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100406/ap_ ... bel_attack

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Apr 2010 21:04

Some element of failure in Naxal operations, admits Home Secretary
While we mourn the death of these courageous souls who went down without a fight, the HS still thinks using Air attacks is AGAINST their ethics

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 21:08

Post shifted to Red Menace thread, as per RM's advice.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 21:12

Craig Alpert wrote:Some element of failure in Naxal operations, admits Home Secretary
While we mourn the death of these courageous souls who went down without a fight, the HS still thinks using Air attacks is AGAINST their ethics

No offense, but why is a soul which went down without a fight, courageous? Isnt the courage in the fact that one faced the daunting odds? Or is that just unfortunate phrasing?

The home secretary is not entirely wrong in his assessment of not using air power. Air power has a way of causing indiscriminate destruction, and, of course, any collateral damage would be used by Maoists as a further example of state aggression, for propaganda purposes.

Besides, to start to use military force means in a way conceding that the much touted Home Ministry Operation Green Hunt is a flop, and that the armed forces will have to be called in.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Apr 2010 21:16

ASP sahab, the red menace thread is there for this type of posts, people are discussing there.
this thread is for discussing the actual operations, not the social background.
would appreciate if you post this there and delete the above,
thanks.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 21:18

- ASPuar

There is no doubt that the living conditions are poor, but it is the ideology of violent resistance that is the problem.

I believe we have to use armed force in conjunction with ideological resistance. I think we need to move slowly with this, capture areas district by district from Maoists, build institutions for good governance, and secure the areas so Maoists cannot take control after security forces leave.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 06 Apr 2010 21:19

Now I am hearing whispers (from news channels) that this massacre was an intelligence failure. Supposedly, Andhra Police had sent warnings of a possible ambush. However, the authorities paid no heed to it, in typical Indian Govt. fashion.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 06 Apr 2010 21:26

Use of airpower in cities and densely populated areas can cause collateral damage. However, the area dominated by Maoists in this particular area is roughly 40,000 sq km and sparsely populated. How can use of FLIR equipped helos in this area cause collateral damage when any red dot on the screen can only mean a Maoist ?

If the security forces do not utilize massive air support now they can never in the future. Since, by then Maoists will have reached the cities and under the glare of the media any action resulting in collateral damange will have serious repurcussions.

This threat needs to be nipped at the buds and the time is now.

ASPuar wrote: The home secretary is not entirely wrong in his assessment of not using air power. Air power has a way of causing indiscriminate destruction, and, of course, any collateral damage would be used by Maoists as a further example of state aggression, for propaganda purposes.

Besides, to start to use military force means in a way conceding that the much touted Home Ministry Operation Green Hunt is a flop, and that the armed forces will have to be called in.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 21:32

The blame cant be put entirely on central govt. Internal state security is a clear matter of state police and if the state doesn't take it seriously the centre cant do much. the Centre is only meant to support with the state's work and PC cant be blamed. matter of fact PC has always shown restraint and often given the maoists enough oppourtunity to surrender and this is always a good way to begin we just cant go shooting at our own citizens without regard but now things have escalated and will require a much more serious effort by state police forces to wipe them out. Greyhounds and AP police tactics were very effective and this is why naxals almost vanished from AP and if the other state forces take it just as serious the outcome will be much quicker and more effective. Central forces may be well trained but often lack the adequate knowhow of terrain and tactics the naxals use in a particular state and naxal tactics vary from state to state. They recruit locally and train on a local level so they need a local force to counter them. Central forces shouldn't get involved much.

The ideal way forward imho is to equip each state police org. with a few transport helos, armed dhruvs, mpvs, armored vehicles, a few high tech uavs capable of day and night monitoring for recon and disaster response, lots of medium and short range survaillance radars for monitoring of all remote areas, even a single heavy transport like MTA in the future. procurement of bpjs for state police forces is a matter for the state govt. so they have to take care of that the centre sadly cant do much but put pressure on them for this, i think crpf going in for job like this isnt ideal on the long run because crpf personnel are from all across india, so they'll face problem collecting intel on local level and often wont be able to deal with local aspects of the problem properly. moreover centre clearing those areas wont mean jack if the state govt. doesnt focus on developement of areas that have been claimed back. Naxals are present in some of the most backward areas of our nation, they'll keep coming back till we dont start developing those areas. I think its should be the state which has a better way to tackling them using local personnel, intel and even using undercover infiltrations into maoist folds. Offcourse our central forces can have better equipment but again when central forces land in a certain state and in large numbers they have to use state police assets like vehicles and if the state isnt well equipped the central forces will fall prey to this in adequacy. Its in the state's perrogative to equip its own forces well and provide adequate training on local crime, terrain and the centre should focus on carefully monitoring maoist spread across the country by looking for connections such as finding the source of funding for them, source of arms and ammo, their recruiters, their handlers, their trainers, people who support them in logistics across the country, etc.

AP's success in wiping of most of naxals in the state is good example of how effective states can be, if all states use such force, tactics and locally tailored solutions, they can not only stop its spread but also counter the ideology. I think this sad event shows how ineffective having a central all india force tackle a very local prolem. The centre on the other hand should go for the big leaders, the propagandists, the suppliers of arms, going aftert their critical assets such as illegal arms factories and also will help if they speed up the modernization of our central forces as well. starting with bpjs, mpvs, company level short range ground radars, company level micro uavs, etc.

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 06 Apr 2010 21:57

what world do we live in where these jawans dont even have adequate radio sets... this is horrible... we are the fastest growing cellphone market...and we are struggling with radio sets... the Germans used it in their tanks and changed warfare.. w/o radio sets u r a dead duck waiting to be slaughtered...

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 06 Apr 2010 21:59

[/quote]
ALL TALK AND NO WALK.. This is the TYPICAL Congress Mentality @ time I feel they are nothing but Hijadas Even a cat fights for her cubs, and here you have the Indian government who is still keeping the option of TALKS Open, after they kill your own Security Forces??? Whatever happen to HONOR AND INTEGRITY??? Naapak saale![/quote]

WELL SAID ! SHAME ON US ! SHAME ON GOI ! WE SHOULD TEACH A LESSION TO NAXALS & ELEINATE ALL, TILL THE LAST PERSON IS DEAD !

RIP FOR THE BRAVE JAWANS !

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Apr 2010 22:05

ASPuar wrote: No offense, but why is a soul which went down without a fight, courageous? Isnt the courage in the fact that one faced the daunting odds? Or is that just unfortunate phrasing?
.

None Taken sirji. Courageous because they went in with what they had, not caring for their life/family or anything else. The fact that they were caught in the ambush PROBABLY meant that they didn't have the time to fight back, hence a death trap for these souls!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 22:45

cbelwal wrote:Use of airpower in cities and densely populated areas can cause collateral damage. However, the area dominated by Maoists in this particular area is roughly 40,000 sq km and sparsely populated. How can use of FLIR equipped helos in this area cause collateral damage when any red dot on the screen can only mean a Maoist ?

Now this, is a dangerous assumption.... and the operative word is assumption.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 22:48

I think air power could be used tactically for major Maoist bases, or if we have combat controllers-type personnel on the ground discerning targets. As a matter of routine, I think bombing will have too much collateral damage otherwise.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 22:50

I think as time passes, the CRPF will become more adept at CIJW situations. Alas, the cost for this training is being paid in blood, rather than money and sweat. Also, of course, the Naxals will also become more sophisticated as time increases. Its essentially a race, to see who adapts first.

Look upon the CPOs as a sort of anti-biotic. The longer they are applied, the more effectively the Naxals (bacteria), will be neutralized. Withdraw the treatment too soon, and the bacteria will regroup, re-arm, and become resistant to the mechanism of action of the Central Police Orgs.

The lesson is plain: Dont stop for talks, chit-chat, and whatever else. Wipe these people out quickly, and make sure you deal with the sources of infection (Naxal ideologues, intellectuals, etc) permanently.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 22:53

Incidentally, air power was used during the naga hills uprisings of the 1950s. It had only mixed results, and the governments policy of resettlement (essentially uprooting all small settlements, and putting everyone into recognised settlement zones), caused a lot of resentment and alienation.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Apr 2010 22:56

The fact that India has not used airpower on Maoist training camps yet has a lesson for the people who demand that India use airpower on Pakistan's terror camps.

The ammunition used will be more expensive than the training camp, which will essentially be a temporary structure.

Here India needs to take a page from the US's use of armed drones to target the maoists. But this will have to be backed by good intel at the ground level, and a major tech boost.
The maoists need to be targetted specifically and with pinpoint accuracy when they are not intermingling with local populace.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2010 23:02

This is again same tripe being peddled which was first peddled during Kargil , GOI and babooze should have no say as to what arms or platforms be used to counter the naxals that decision should rest with the company commander or the officer in charge of the mission they should decide as to what should be the exact composition of task force to counter the threats . Use of choppers or armored vehicles could be done in a very effective manner had GOI only ensured it had lifafa journalists in leash .

Problem is in India people only talk and think too much , when it comes to taking action on ground people develop cold feet and bring up hajaar excuses for not pulling the trigger.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2010 23:06

Gagan wrote:The fact that India has not used airpower on Maoist training camps yet has a lesson for the people who demand that India use airpower on Pakistan's terror camps.The ammunition used will be more expensive than the training camp, which will essentially be a temporary structure.

Excellent summary beta jaan . So should everyone march into the camps wearing Rupa banyaan and a sword in hand ? Cant get any cheaper than this , can it ?

Btw Airpower is a broad term loosly being quoted as an excuse for inaction , airpower need not be carpet bombardment of targets but fast and speedy injection of troops in key areas supported by APCs and gunships to take out hardened shelters .

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Apr 2010 23:08

carl, there are no such 'bases'. base is where a bunch of naxals are, they may be at one place tonight and another tomorrow. most of these places will be co-located with an otherwise innocent village. air power has to be limited to surveillance, cas-evac and enveloping moves. but I don't think ATM we have a large enough commitment of either helos or personnel for the last option. deploying UAV round the clock will be a costly but attractive proposition but again, we don't have UAV's with SAR in our inventory right now AFAIK. UAV's with thermal cameras will be of limited use only.
at the end of the day there is no alternative to having boots on the ground in a 10:1 ratio or more.

getting a fleet of helos so that we can launch operations at a short notice might be a very good idea. it's not possible to station large forces at each and every PS, but a reserve quick reaction force will at least give them a fighting chance. on occasions when good intel is available these might also be used to take the fight to the naxals.

somehow, I get the impression that we still haven't managed to master convoy security, if true that is a big failure. we keep hearing of the same modus operandi again and again, a CPO force is attacked and then the force en-route is ambushed with IEDs and then gunmen.
it might be a good idea to attach scout helos to such convoys.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Apr 2010 23:09

After this massacre, those who insist on no air-power, no heavy weaponry in the GoI will have to reevaluate their options.

Use of such area weapons is definitely impractical against an insurgency that operates on a doctrine of area denial, ala the Kashmiri Jihadis. There is no other option than use of such weapons against an insurgency that is operating on a doctrine of area domination.

Ofcourse, use of these weapons will have to carefully calibrated, perhaps restricted to breaking massed ambushes, but to deny the use of these weapons to CPOs is to virtually guarantee that in future, the Indian Army will have to be enrolled in some manner. The transformation of CPOs from riot police to a counter insurgency force is still in process, and will take time, years even. To let the Maoists have respite in this time may prove to be more costly than preserving any notional sense of restraint.

A repeat of such a massacre will result in rock bottom morales, and the CPO jawans responding with a heavy hand.

A loaded SLR in the hands of a frustrated jawan in a crowded market will be much more dangerous to the overall COIN effort than a WSI Dhruv deployed to break a murderous ambush.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Apr 2010 23:15

meaningless post deleted.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 23:20

Several disagreements with above:

1. The sort of transport/logistics support which RahulM has mentioned is currently being provided by the IAF, though CAS has been denied by GoI. The points as to lack of mastery of ops in CIJW sit. are accurate. CRPF probably has an internal tactics and training wing, which should take note of the MO being used, and develop effective counters to it. Without this planning and analysis support, the CPO personnel inserted in this environment are operating with their hands tied behind their backs.

2. Sudeep, how long did the encounter/massacre last? It seems like it was all over pretty quick. CAS would only be of use if there was sufficient time for the ambushed to call it in. CRPF has been transforming to a CI force for some time now, with ops in JK, and NE.

3. Some earlier comments about jawans not being equipped with wpns, or fighting without BPJs etc are wrong. A standard maoist MO is to salvage eqpt found on bodies of victims. That being said, Id posted in the R&D thread about the BPJ trial tampering scam which has delayed CPO deployment of said eqpt.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Apr 2010 23:26

Very important issues that RahulM raises - that of Convoy security.

How will the armed forces intrude into enemy territory if convoy security is an issue? I would think that this issue will need to be sorted out.

Comparision with terrorists in J&K is not valid because there a handful of terrorists attack a military convoy and then scoot before they are pest-e-shaheeded.

This is largescale ambush as one would likely encounter when entering enemy territory.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 06 Apr 2010 23:27

One has to look at a bit of history at the IPKF Ops in Sri Lanka. Many people are not aware but Rajiv Gandhi had instructed the Army that under no circumstances gunships could to be used. Logic: Colletral damage. Officers who have served there will tell you how handicapped they were in the absense of close air support specially when attacking LTTE strongholds. When the IPKF casualty rate started rising the government under pressure , allowed gunships to be brought in . They were used with disasterous effects on the LTTE. One has to look at the IPKF casualty rate before and after the Hinds were introduced. If only the Congress government was less idealistic, the IPKF casualty rate would not have been as high.

Same mistake is being repeated now. Why such a blanket ban on air support ? You can bet that as the casualty rate rises and Maoists improve their strategies, gunships will be called in. This will happen in the next couple of years just as did with the IPKF. Sadly many jawans will have to loose their lives before the politicians shed their idealistic baggage.

ASPuar wrote:
cbelwal wrote:Use of airpower in cities and densely populated areas can cause collateral damage. However, the area dominated by Maoists in this particular area is roughly 40,000 sq km and sparsely populated. How can use of FLIR equipped helos in this area cause collateral damage when any red dot on the screen can only mean a Maoist ?
Now this, is a dangerous assumption.... and the operative word is assumption.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Apr 2010 23:29

1. The sort of transport/logistics support which RahulM has mentioned is currently being provided by the IAF, though CAS has been denied by GoI.

my impression is it is very limited in quantity, IIRC something like one flight of 5 helo's for the entire campaign. counting maintenance issues, that's barely enough for cas-evac. other roles are hardly possible by such numbers, if no more than a platoon can be moved at any one time.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Apr 2010 23:32

ASPuar wrote: 1.The points as to lack of mastery of ops in CIJW sit. are accurate. CRPF probably has an internal tactics and training wing, which should take note of the MO being used, and develop effective counters to it. Without this planning and analysis support, the CPO personnel inserted in this environment are operating with their hands tied behind their backs.

The development of effective countermeasures will take time. Till that time, we must provide the jawans with any and all edges they can get over the insurgents.

ASPuar wrote:2. Sudeep, how long did the encounter/massacre last? It seems like it was all over pretty quick. CAS would only be of use if there was sufficient time for the ambushed to call it in. CRPF has been transforming to a CI force for some time now, with ops in JK, and NE.

Even if the actual ambush was over pretty quick, putting the ambush in place must have taken at least a few hours. This would have been caught and perhaps disrupted if there had been air cover. The subsequent pilfering of weapons and dispersal would definitely had been disrupted. Lastly a greater attrition would have been inflicted on the insurgents.

The role of CRPF in JK is still limited to cities, point security and relatively less rugged zones, area domination is still a preserve of the Army.

ASPuar wrote:3. Some earlier comments about jawans not being equipped with wpns, or fighting without BPJs etc are wrong. A standard maoist MO is to salvage eqpt found on bodies of victims.

Maoists can steel BPJs and machineguns, how will they steal a chopper?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Apr 2010 23:37

?

I dont understand. What do you mean they cant steal a chopper? I mean, its true... but so what? Are you suggesting ground ops should be stopped? I dont think thats a good idea, for very many reasons.

Anyway, what if they start using AA weapons? Then theres a whole new, and terrible dimension to this fight.

As to tactics taking time, the whole point of updated tactics is that they are developed fast, and can ameliorate emergent tactical scenarios.