CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
It certainly does....IAF coming into play signifies the paramiltary ground forces cannot manage situation deep in Indian territory....bad for H&D.
Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
To this date IAF has been used to bomb Indian territory only once in Manipur in the 1960s.
Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
To this date IAF has been used to bomb Indian territory only once in Manipur in the 1960s.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Will do. I understand what you mean by what it implies, but how does it make a difference operationally?
Furthermore, shouldn't combating insurgency be a joint operation between selected assets from CRPF/Paramilitary/IAF/Special Forces/IB etc?
Furthermore, shouldn't combating insurgency be a joint operation between selected assets from CRPF/Paramilitary/IAF/Special Forces/IB etc?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Now he is making even bigger mistake,,Govt may have to use air power against Naxals: Chidambaram
he is surely doing politics in this , is that why he has been appointed to do such blunders ?..
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
ideally it should but the IAF ought to be less fussy about using it's air assets to atleast assist in large combing and clearing ops. . Drones of the sort which covered Vayu Shakti would be very useful.
Take a scenario as an example. An intelligence input comes in regarding heavy Maoist buildup in a remote area of WB, a drone is immidiatly sent in , maybe two. They cover the area and confirm the maoist presence, CRPF units move in swiftly and counting on live feed from the drones, they strategically encirle the terrorist group and begin closing in. An couple of IAF Mi-35 are immidiatly called in with heavy firepower. After triple confirmation, the Choppers open fire and within 20 minutes roughly 100-200 terrorists are killed with ZERO CRPF casualties. Large ammounts of arms are seized and it puts the fear of God into the Commies.
Now, what would you prefer. CRPF suffering casualties and yet taking the moral high ground by not using IAF against naxal terrorists or a little all round help from IAF and a massive message to the terrorists that we do not hesistate in crushing you and the state cannot be taken as "Soft".
Take a scenario as an example. An intelligence input comes in regarding heavy Maoist buildup in a remote area of WB, a drone is immidiatly sent in , maybe two. They cover the area and confirm the maoist presence, CRPF units move in swiftly and counting on live feed from the drones, they strategically encirle the terrorist group and begin closing in. An couple of IAF Mi-35 are immidiatly called in with heavy firepower. After triple confirmation, the Choppers open fire and within 20 minutes roughly 100-200 terrorists are killed with ZERO CRPF casualties. Large ammounts of arms are seized and it puts the fear of God into the Commies.
Now, what would you prefer. CRPF suffering casualties and yet taking the moral high ground by not using IAF against naxal terrorists or a little all round help from IAF and a massive message to the terrorists that we do not hesistate in crushing you and the state cannot be taken as "Soft".
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
If IAF does not come into play now, couple of years from now IAF will be busy protecting its pan-Indian air bases against assaults from ground forces of the Maoist army. Never before had India faced an enemy so determined, resourceful and intelligent.
Paul wrote:It certainly does....IAF coming into play signifies the paramiltary ground forces cannot manage situation deep in Indian territory....bad for H&D.
Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
A review of PLA's army tactics under Mao Zedong will tell you that Indian Maoists are adopting the same:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
Using extreme torture on opponents:
"..Under the direction of Mao, it is reported that horrible methods of torture took place[15] and given names such as sitting in a sedan chair, airplane ride, toad-drinking water, and monkey pulling reins."[15] The wives of several suspects had their breasts cut open and their genitals burned.[15] It has been estimated that 'tens of thousands' of suspected enemies,[16] perhaps as many as 186,000,[17] were killed during this purge. Critics accuse Mao's authority in Jiangxi of being secured and reassured through the revolutionary terrorism, or red terrorism..."
Guerrilla Warfare due to inadequate training of cadres:
"...Mao's Guerrilla Warfare and Mobile Warfare was based upon the fact of the poor armament and military training of the Red Army which consisted mainly of impoverished peasants, who, however, were all encouraged by revolutionary passions and aspiring after a communist utopia...."
Adopting the People's War Doctrine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_war
"...In its original formulation by Mao Zedong, people's war exploits the few advantages that a small revolutionary movement has—broad-based popular support can be one of them—against a state's power with a large and well-equipped army. People's war strategically avoids decisive battles, since a tiny force of a few dozen soldiers would easily be routed in an all-out confrontation with the state. Instead, it favours a three stage strategy of protracted warfare, with carefully chosen battles that can realistically be won. In stage one, revolutionary force conducting people's war starts in a remote area with mountainous or otherwise difficult terrain in which its enemy is weak. It attempts to establish a local stronghold known as a revolutionary base area. As it grows in power, it enters stage two, establishes other revolutionary base areas and spreads its influence through the surrounding countryside, where it may become the governing power and gain popular support through such programmes as land reform. Eventually in stage three, the movement has enough strength to encircle and capture small cities, then larger ones, until finally it seizes power in the entire country."
All these doctrines were established only for fighting ground forces since at this time role of air power was evolving. Air support is the game changer against the Maoists since Chairman Mao did not teach them how to fight helicopter gunships. By not using the only superior weapons at our disposal we are fighting the war by the rules laid by the Maoists.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
Using extreme torture on opponents:
"..Under the direction of Mao, it is reported that horrible methods of torture took place[15] and given names such as sitting in a sedan chair, airplane ride, toad-drinking water, and monkey pulling reins."[15] The wives of several suspects had their breasts cut open and their genitals burned.[15] It has been estimated that 'tens of thousands' of suspected enemies,[16] perhaps as many as 186,000,[17] were killed during this purge. Critics accuse Mao's authority in Jiangxi of being secured and reassured through the revolutionary terrorism, or red terrorism..."
Guerrilla Warfare due to inadequate training of cadres:
"...Mao's Guerrilla Warfare and Mobile Warfare was based upon the fact of the poor armament and military training of the Red Army which consisted mainly of impoverished peasants, who, however, were all encouraged by revolutionary passions and aspiring after a communist utopia...."
Adopting the People's War Doctrine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_war
"...In its original formulation by Mao Zedong, people's war exploits the few advantages that a small revolutionary movement has—broad-based popular support can be one of them—against a state's power with a large and well-equipped army. People's war strategically avoids decisive battles, since a tiny force of a few dozen soldiers would easily be routed in an all-out confrontation with the state. Instead, it favours a three stage strategy of protracted warfare, with carefully chosen battles that can realistically be won. In stage one, revolutionary force conducting people's war starts in a remote area with mountainous or otherwise difficult terrain in which its enemy is weak. It attempts to establish a local stronghold known as a revolutionary base area. As it grows in power, it enters stage two, establishes other revolutionary base areas and spreads its influence through the surrounding countryside, where it may become the governing power and gain popular support through such programmes as land reform. Eventually in stage three, the movement has enough strength to encircle and capture small cities, then larger ones, until finally it seizes power in the entire country."
All these doctrines were established only for fighting ground forces since at this time role of air power was evolving. Air support is the game changer against the Maoists since Chairman Mao did not teach them how to fight helicopter gunships. By not using the only superior weapons at our disposal we are fighting the war by the rules laid by the Maoists.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
yes,after all they are IndiansIf IAF does not come into play now, couple of years from now IAF will be busy protecting its pan-Indian air bases against assaults from ground forces of the Maoist army. Never before had India faced an enemy so determined, resourceful and intelligent.
IMHO ,who we are fighting and for what goals ,we dont know,
Involving the IAF is just the start of a larger battle, the war, in naxal terms had just started ,they were planning for ,since decades.
so we are already behind them in planning ,,or in other words thats why they prove to be more intelligent in that scenario......
sorry to say, ..but I dont see any guidelines and working procedures GoI is adopting in this 'WAR' ,,
see today they kill Nx3 personnel (earlier N was =25), ,then PC says OK call the airforce,.
the day before yesterday, they were killing in same numbers, now what changed,,, 25X3 ,thats it,?,.....
The naxals(call them naxals,not maoists) just tripled the amount of work they usually do,,,
and we start talking about "REVIEWING OUR STRATEGY" on a tiny jolt from naxals,
I ask ,was there any strategy before,??, had it been there ,we would have seen just opposite results...
so again,,WHERE IS THE STRATEGY FOR THIS WAR ??
we cannot start dropping cluster bombs just because mr PC is feeling shaky due to his chair....
that would be an atheist solution of a problem that needs to be dealt scientifically
..............................................................................................................................
we truly miss RayC in this discussion
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
CBelwal. Your post implies that IAF is the magic mantra whose deployment will make this problem go away permanently…. This malaise is related to socio-cultural and economic issues which are related to rural urban divide, the fascination for maovadi culture amongst the chatteratti, support from external powers and extreme poverty in these states.
The IAF cannot do anything about this. OTOH, deployment of IAF personnel to fight this problem deep inside Indian territory diverts highly trained and scarcely available resources from the borders. This is what the external powers want.
Secondly, the Indian state successfully dealt with two existential threats in highly trained and motivated terrorists fighting for Khakistan and J&K and successfully defeated the first one and marginalized the second one. These insurgencies at their peak were far more serious to India than the Naxal threat in it’s present state.
Many years ago when I wrote about the Read storm rising on this forum, I had expressed the concern that it will not be long before these people start aligning with ULFA/LTTE and other groups inimical to India within 5-6 years. I had also pointed out the state's tendency to get it's act together at the last minute, but when it going it really worked out.
W.r.t to your point about IAF protecting it’s AFBs from Naxals, the Avantipur AFB in J&K has never been penetrated even at the height of the insurgency in the 90s.
The IAF cannot do anything about this. OTOH, deployment of IAF personnel to fight this problem deep inside Indian territory diverts highly trained and scarcely available resources from the borders. This is what the external powers want.
Secondly, the Indian state successfully dealt with two existential threats in highly trained and motivated terrorists fighting for Khakistan and J&K and successfully defeated the first one and marginalized the second one. These insurgencies at their peak were far more serious to India than the Naxal threat in it’s present state.
Many years ago when I wrote about the Read storm rising on this forum, I had expressed the concern that it will not be long before these people start aligning with ULFA/LTTE and other groups inimical to India within 5-6 years. I had also pointed out the state's tendency to get it's act together at the last minute, but when it going it really worked out.
W.r.t to your point about IAF protecting it’s AFBs from Naxals, the Avantipur AFB in J&K has never been penetrated even at the height of the insurgency in the 90s.
Last edited by Paul on 08 Apr 2010 01:39, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
paul ji,
a very good insight of the situation,
some people in GoI are planning to worsen the situation,, initially they did by not acting,now by acting foolhardily .
a very good insight of the situation,
some people in GoI are planning to worsen the situation,, initially they did by not acting,now by acting foolhardily .
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Use of IAF will give the Indian forces fighting chance of winning this war. Talking about Kashmir when was the last time 100+ jihadis launched a coordinted assault on Indian forces ? Or how many times secessionists group have killed 74+ soldiers in an organized planned assault. Please look at discussion in previous pages of differences between Jihadis and Maoists. Also read on Red Army's war doctrine to get an insight in their war philosphy. Nowhere does it point to handling air assets of the enemy.
Talk of poverty and all is hogwash created by Maoists to create sympathy. It exists in India but if Maoists come to power will it vanish ?? What will Maoists do to India that will bring great prospertity to the region. Land reforms were done in the 1960s and India is recovering from centuries of exploitation. The only difference for these poor tribals will be that now they get screwed by a democratic government, when Maoists seize power they will get screwed by the Maoists. Atleast with a democratic government you can protest and have hope, when the Maoists come to power any protestor will simply be shot dead.
Its not a rag tag movement you are dealing with here. Its an armed uprising from a army that is taking shape and that wants to destory everything India has gained in last 63 years. This is not the Khalistani movement or any secessionist movement. This is some serious threat unlike anything India has seen in the past.
Talk of poverty and all is hogwash created by Maoists to create sympathy. It exists in India but if Maoists come to power will it vanish ?? What will Maoists do to India that will bring great prospertity to the region. Land reforms were done in the 1960s and India is recovering from centuries of exploitation. The only difference for these poor tribals will be that now they get screwed by a democratic government, when Maoists seize power they will get screwed by the Maoists. Atleast with a democratic government you can protest and have hope, when the Maoists come to power any protestor will simply be shot dead.
Its not a rag tag movement you are dealing with here. Its an armed uprising from a army that is taking shape and that wants to destory everything India has gained in last 63 years. This is not the Khalistani movement or any secessionist movement. This is some serious threat unlike anything India has seen in the past.
Paul wrote:CBelwal. Your post implies that IAF is te of ra whose deployment will make this problem go away permanently…. This malaise is related to socio-cultural and economic issues which are related to rural urban divide, the fascination for maovadi culture amongst the chatteratti, support from external powers and extreme poverty in these states.
The IAF cannot do anything about this. OTOH, deployment of IAF personnel to fight this problem deep inside Indian territory diverts highly trained and scarcely available resources from the borders. This is what the external powers want.
Secondly, the Indian state successfully dealt with two existential threats in highly trained and motivated terrorists fighting for Khakistan and J&K and successfully defeated the first one and marginalized the second one. These insurgencies at their peak were far more serious to India than the Naxal threat in it’s present state.
Many years ago when I wrote about the Read storm rising on this forum, I had expressed the concern that it will not be long before these people start aligning with ULFA/LTTE and other groups inimical to India within 5-6 years. I had also pointed out the state's tendency to get it's act together at the last minute, but when it going it really worked out.
W.r.t to your point about IAF protecting it’s AFBs from Naxals, the Avantipur AFB in J&K has never been penetrated even at the height of the insurgency in the 90s.
Last edited by cbelwal on 08 Apr 2010 01:56, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
One recurring them I notice in this so called strategy is letting our CRPF into a trap and getting them butchered. Lack of planning, lack of equipments, lack of intel..., the list goes on. I am copying and pasting an question from CNN-IBN
---------------
CNN-IBN: Is this a massive intelligence failure on the part of security forces?
G K Pillai: There is no question of intelligence failure. This was a team which went out based on specific intelligence inputs two days ago. They went looking for the Maoists this morning but they got ambushed in the jungles. This is not an intelligence failure because we don't have intelligence inside the jungles.
---------------
With bureaucrats like these running the show, I am not surprised that the CRPF got ambushed, and something tells me this is not the end either.
---------------
CNN-IBN: Is this a massive intelligence failure on the part of security forces?
G K Pillai: There is no question of intelligence failure. This was a team which went out based on specific intelligence inputs two days ago. They went looking for the Maoists this morning but they got ambushed in the jungles. This is not an intelligence failure because we don't have intelligence inside the jungles.
---------------
With bureaucrats like these running the show, I am not surprised that the CRPF got ambushed, and something tells me this is not the end either.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Er...Belwalji, To begin with, the discussion is about the pros and cons of deploying IAF assets to combat the Naxal threat.
My arguement is not against deployment of air assets in this insurgency. I am all for it as long as the IAF is kept out of it.
My arguement is not against deployment of air assets in this insurgency. I am all for it as long as the IAF is kept out of it.
Last edited by Paul on 08 Apr 2010 02:04, edited 3 times in total.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
To effectively counter this menace, we should also think about economically developing the backward areas. Using air power to crush the maoists would work in short term. But there is no guarantee that the true ring leaders would be killed. They are ones who needs to be killed, not the foot soldiers. Most of these tribals who join forces with the maoists do believe in them because some one forgot to do a good job of developing the rural areas (the state.) And with mounting grievances they fall easy prey to the first person promising them a better world.
The govt should find out the hideouts of the top leaders, their arms depot, suppliers, and then blow them/kill them up with whatever means possible. But the foot soldiers, I am very positive they can be rehabilitated. All they want is a better living condition where they have access to basic amenities and that their rights are not violated.
The govt should find out the hideouts of the top leaders, their arms depot, suppliers, and then blow them/kill them up with whatever means possible. But the foot soldiers, I am very positive they can be rehabilitated. All they want is a better living condition where they have access to basic amenities and that their rights are not violated.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Well what I dont get is why are basic IAF assets considered untouchables when it comes to protecting the country against the gravest threat it has every faced.
Currenttly IAF is the best equipped force in the country when it comes to air assets. Let CRPF built it own air wing and buy rotary wing aircraft and UAV's, which will take time. Till then allow the IAF to fill the gap.
Currenttly IAF is the best equipped force in the country when it comes to air assets. Let CRPF built it own air wing and buy rotary wing aircraft and UAV's, which will take time. Till then allow the IAF to fill the gap.
Paul wrote: My arguement is not against deployment of air assets in this insurgency. I am all for it as long as the IAF is kept out of it.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Fine, if they think using IAF would be an overkill because IAF personals are trained to cause maximum damage in large areas (beyond our borders). So, there might be very high chances of IAF causing collateral damage if they are used. How about bringing in BSF air arm for time-being, till a dedicated CRPF air offensive arm is created.
It is sheer lie, or I should say bull-shit, if politicians are claiming CRPF is well equipped to tackle naxals. If CRPF personals were really well-equipped, they probably would have never lost more than 90% of their company's men in an ambush. If they were well-equipped and well-trained, at least they could had chance to retreat if they were at numerically disadvantageous position.
CRPF needs to emphasize more towards training its man in army's guerrilla/jungle warfare schools. More units like, sniper/reconnaissance/counter-ambush should be used by CRPF. It is no more just Election protection duty job for CRPF, now time has come for them to adapt to ever-changing challenges.
Last but not least. My deepest condolences and gratitude to all CRPF personals who died or injured fighting for security and for maintaining integrity of our country.
I am pretty sure, there must be many heroic tale into this 4 hours encounter, sadly, most of them we would never ever come to know.
It is sheer lie, or I should say bull-shit, if politicians are claiming CRPF is well equipped to tackle naxals. If CRPF personals were really well-equipped, they probably would have never lost more than 90% of their company's men in an ambush. If they were well-equipped and well-trained, at least they could had chance to retreat if they were at numerically disadvantageous position.
CRPF needs to emphasize more towards training its man in army's guerrilla/jungle warfare schools. More units like, sniper/reconnaissance/counter-ambush should be used by CRPF. It is no more just Election protection duty job for CRPF, now time has come for them to adapt to ever-changing challenges.
Last but not least. My deepest condolences and gratitude to all CRPF personals who died or injured fighting for security and for maintaining integrity of our country.
I am pretty sure, there must be many heroic tale into this 4 hours encounter, sadly, most of them we would never ever come to know.
Last edited by Sudhanshu on 08 Apr 2010 04:28, edited 2 times in total.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
IAF is not equipped to handle limited conflicts within the border like with the naxals. It is equipped for heavy conflicts outside its' borders.
However, certain elements of the IAF can be deployed.
A UAV will be very helpful. Light Combat Helis could also be used, for example of the case yesterday where 1000 Maoists killed 76 CRPF men. We shall use the airforce for air reconnaissance and for medical evacuation. But, doing airstrikes with sukhois or migs would be foolish.
However, certain elements of the IAF can be deployed.
A UAV will be very helpful. Light Combat Helis could also be used, for example of the case yesterday where 1000 Maoists killed 76 CRPF men. We shall use the airforce for air reconnaissance and for medical evacuation. But, doing airstrikes with sukhois or migs would be foolish.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
We are going to be fighting this for a few years, so why delegate it to one service, why not use assets from all the services to create a temporary joint anti-Naxal formation? I mean, helicopters and UAVs from the IAF, Army SF teams to penetrate into Maoist territory and collect humint, CRPF to police areas and maintain control, a packaged civilian govt to restore order in an area after securing it, etc etc. Is this realistic?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
x-post from The Red Menace thread.
Anger spills over in CRPF camp wrote:CHINTALNAR: Deep discontentment and utter frustration sweeps CRPF's 62 Battalion camp at Chintalnar, around 185 km from Jagdalpur in Chhattisgarh, that lost 76 men to the worst ever Maoist ambush on Tuesday.
The jawans are angry over the delay in reinforcements following the attack, their gruelling day-to-day lives in remote jungles and the failure of senior officials to show up at the camp after the tragedy. The edgy jawans didn't even spare Union home minister P Chidambaram and the media for sympathising with them "for the sake of it".
"People are issuing statements, expressing grief over the incident, but how many have tried to see the condition we work in," yelled a jawan from inside the camp. "Media are flashing fabricated reports about senior officers making visits or camping at our site. No one has actually turned up," he added.
He said politicians were finding faults with them. "They say it was a mistake. How can they pass such a judgment sitting in Delhi?" asked another jawan. Another jawan joined in to take a dig at the politicians.
"Choppers are ready for their emergency needs, but when our men bleed to death without any assistance, the choppers are no where to be seen," said the jawan. "Our seniors keep talking on the phone and the assistance is delayed."
Their seniors tried to calm the jawans down but they continued to vent their anger at the government's apathy. "We've to walk around 42-km daily with facilities that don't even match up to minimum standards," said another jawan. "They've provided booster pumps to draw water but there is no electricity."
He said the jawans even go hungry during operations. "We're forced to fight without rest or food. Why this discrimination against us?" asked a jawan who was part of the rescue operation.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Unfortunately, when we lose 200 or more paramilitary jawans inside 3 months, it does signify that they aren't managing well.Paul wrote:It certainly does....IAF coming into play signifies the paramiltary ground forces cannot manage situation deep in Indian territory....bad for H&D.
What was Kargil? We bombed our own territory. That is a fact. When the army can be called to quell an insurgency, why not the Air Force?Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
To this date IAF has been used to bomb Indian territory only once in Manipur in the 1960s.
IMO, we need to shed the moralistic high ground of 'these are our own people'. Kashmir is estimated to have 1500 militants active at all times - compare that with 1000 Maoists that participated in a SINGLE attack! Who are we fooling?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
thousands of Maoist ambushing or traveling or hiding or farting
will give up lots of Infrared heat no? why can't IAF Assets be used
to detect/monitor it and get the Jawans real time intelligence ?
i remember MKI was used to track down the late Andhra CM crash site,
now if it can be used to find out a dead man, why can not it be used to protect
living Jawans ? or the lives of Jawans too cheap?
will give up lots of Infrared heat no? why can't IAF Assets be used
to detect/monitor it and get the Jawans real time intelligence ?
i remember MKI was used to track down the late Andhra CM crash site,
now if it can be used to find out a dead man, why can not it be used to protect
living Jawans ? or the lives of Jawans too cheap?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Nikhil T wrote:Unfortunately, when we lose 200 or more paramilitary jawans inside 3 months, it does signify that they aren't managing well.Paul wrote:It certainly does....IAF coming into play signifies the paramiltary ground forces cannot manage situation deep in Indian territory....bad for H&D.
What was Kargil? We bombed our own territory. That is a fact. When the army can be called to quell an insurgency, why not the Air Force?Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
To this date IAF has been used to bomb Indian territory only once in Manipur in the 1960s.
IMO, we need to shed the moralistic high ground of 'these are our own people'. Kashmir is estimated to have 1500 militants active at all times - compare that with 1000 Maoists that participated in a SINGLE attack! Who are we fooling?
Well, there are many issues at hand. Kargil air assault targeted very specific areas, bunkers which were known and identified by map coordinates, because they were our own bunkers.
Ops in populated areas, Jungle etc, will always have consequences. Maoist camps will have women and children in them. To bomb them from the air means killing these people too. When theyre dead, who can say whether they were combatants or not?
Another thing: Will the government be able to guarantee, that in the event that innocent civilians are unfortunately killed in aerial assault, the pilots of the aircraft/helicopters will not be held criminally liable?
Will the government ensure that no prosecutions will happen on that account? Will it work out a formula where the persons calling in the strikes are liable? Otherwise, persons on the ground will call strikes indiscriminately, knowing that they are not responsible in the end.
Not to mention the psychological scars of such a disaster on the pilots themselves.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
The CRPF has its own commando wing, called the COBRA battalions, which, as one of the officers involved had said himself, if they had been used for this particular op, this situation would probably not have arisen.
But, no specially trained wing can be everywhere at all times.
But, no specially trained wing can be everywhere at all times.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Small update:ASPuar wrote:The CRPF has its own commando wing, called the COBRA battalions, which, as one of the officers involved had said himself, if they had been used for this particular op, this situation would probably not have arisen.
But, no specially trained wing can be everywhere at all times.
Cobra is now renamed SAF ( Special Action force).
From Praveen Swami:
For the first several months of its tour of duty in Dantewada, the 62 Battalion was unable to execute meaningful offensive operations. That was supposed to have been the task of the CRPF's elite COBRA force, an elite jungle warfare formation recently renamed the Special Action Force. SAF operations, though, were scaled back in response to allegations of human rights violations.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Use of armed forces is not a good idea. First it signifies escalation of situation, second it means police forces are not capable of maintaining law and order.
Also if IAF/Army personals are involved who will ensure their and their families security in those areas. All these cities will turn into fortified areas as Maoist will drag their war to cities to justify heavy handed approach used against them.
Just look at porkies as an example. Their cities are battle ground because their Army used heavy artillary, airforce to kill their own people.
Such war requires hard political stance. All these Maoist gundaas as well as eastern factions like ULFA have strong political support that's why they have strong roots in those regions.
OTOH, Operation Rhino which IA conducted against factions in eastern India was a total success!!! Because there was interference from across the boarder. But here Maoist ringleaders are trolling big metros and are too hot to be touch by security agencies.
Also if IAF/Army personals are involved who will ensure their and their families security in those areas. All these cities will turn into fortified areas as Maoist will drag their war to cities to justify heavy handed approach used against them.
Just look at porkies as an example. Their cities are battle ground because their Army used heavy artillary, airforce to kill their own people.
Such war requires hard political stance. All these Maoist gundaas as well as eastern factions like ULFA have strong political support that's why they have strong roots in those regions.
OTOH, Operation Rhino which IA conducted against factions in eastern India was a total success!!! Because there was interference from across the boarder. But here Maoist ringleaders are trolling big metros and are too hot to be touch by security agencies.
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- BRFite
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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Dude welcome to BRF. There are a lot many of us like you here newbies and green horns, including me. And we flock here to gain knowledge and improve our awareness and get better at what we really are intrested in.pkpandey wrote: i agree we need to use special forces covertly, if para sf are to stretched then GARUDS can be used they don't have much active duty, and we'l be able to have a show their capabilities plus they'l get some combat experience or even SFF who are specialist in jungle warefare.
But this is also not just another forum where we write what we please a-la some so called national level news websites, Before we write we read and try to gain basic understanding of the issue.
Though not trying to blow off any doubts, please refrain from off hands comments like "Garuds..<snip>.........show their capabilities"
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- BRFite
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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
And in Mizoram during the heights of Laldenga-MNF agitation, though it was just a very localized operation just to enable heli troops to land.Paul wrote:It certainly does....IAF coming into play signifies the paramiltary ground forces cannot manage situation deep in Indian territory....bad for H&D.
Read up on the Kargil episode on run up events when IAF was deployed. Plus IAF Helo pilots are needed on India's borders....not in Chattisgarh and Telengana. This capability should reside wihin MHA itself.
To this date IAF has been used to bomb Indian territory only once in Manipur in the 1960s.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
X-post
From Orbat.com-
From Orbat.com-
Maoists kill 75 paramilitary police in ambush Editor has spent the whole day trying to formulate a comment that would explain this fiasco to our non-South Asian readers, and he has failed.
Our South Asian readers need no explanation: they know this is the way India works.
First, the Government sits passively as Maoists extend their presence from approximately 1 county in 10, primarily in the rural/tribal poverty struck regions of Central and East India, to one third of the counties in the country. This took the Maoists a mere six years. All this time an insurgency is going on and hundreds of police and rebels are being killed. The police are short of training, sensors, vehicles, arms, ammunition, and everything you can think of, but Government of India can't be bothered with petty details like that.
Then the Government wakes up, declares the Maoists the greatest threat to Indian security, and offers talks. Except for closing the barn door after the horses, goats, rats and cockroaches have fled, this was the correct approach. Whatever it is they have done, these people are Indians and the Government was 100% correct not to unleash the Army on them. Many of their arms originate from China, and are smuggled through Bangladesh and Nepal, but there are no foreigners operating with the insurgents. Even the Government concedes the Maoists are raising legitimate social and economic issues.
Well, the Maoists figure they have nothing to gain by talks, especially since Government is calling on them to abjure violence as part of the negotiations. So they say: "fugabhatit".
Government inducts reinforcements and sets out to "clean out" some of the Maoist strongholds, and announces progress and the usual kind of stupid claims that of late we have come to associate with the Pakistan in its "battle" with the Taliban.
So the Maoists stage a carefully planned ambush - and this was indeed a complex operation. Several hundred of the, perhaps even 1000, keep watch as police columns penetrate their strongholds. In accordance with standard Indian CI doctrine, each morning the Indians sweep road for mines that may have been planted the night before. Somewhere between 6 and 7 AM local, one reduced company of the police is returning from its sweep duties, setting the stage for additional police to enter with their vehicles, supplies, and so on. There is a single MPV with the road-opening company, with a single driver.
The MPV is hit by a mine, the police scatter for cover, and find that every place they flee to is mined, and that they are open to devastating fire from Maoists that are hidden all over the jungle.
When a reinforcement company reaches, there is nothing left to do except carry off the dead - 75 of 82 men, and evacuate the 7 survivors. As one of the survivors said, the police company didn't have a chance.
The survivor asks why was the under strength company on its own, when it is known the Maoists attack in groups of 500.
Good question, and India's answer, of course, is: "we are shocked, shocked, sorry about that."
After all, who cares. These are just police, after all, of no consequence. The police have been getting killed and killed, and no one was bothered then, why start now?
So now we have the usual calls for vengeance, retribution, punishment, the whole nine meters What Editor is very worried about is that the Army will be ordered to send in the Rashtriya Rifles, the specialized all-army CI force. Just two days ago the Army said it didn't want to be involved in operations against the Maoists, but the Indian Army is not the US Army. It does not have political allies, and it cannot leak and manipulate the media. There is a very, very strict convention that the civil government is the ultimate authority, there is no question of the Army objecting or refusing.
Please to note: the three Service chiefs were at the meeting the Minister for Home conveyed after the fiasco.
For all that the Prime Minister and his Cabinet should be held responsible for the expansion of Maoist influence, the Prime Minister is undoubtedly right when he says there is no military solution to this problem. At the same time, when 500-1000 insurgents can get together and defeat a sizeable force of security personnel so easily - even if they are only armed police, than like it or not, the problem has a security dimension.
We will wait and see what happens next.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
pkpandey wrote:
tell me have u ever heard of a GARUD operation? even there are details of MARCOS ops now! won't they able to hone their skills and get combat experience?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Wiki says they are/were deployed somewhere for UN PKOs.pkpandey wrote:
tell me have u ever heard of a GARUD operation? even there are details of MARCOS ops now! won't they able to hone their skills and get combat experience?
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- BRFite
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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
pkpandey wrote: tell me have u ever heard of a GARUD operation? even there are details of MARCOS ops now! won't they able to hone their skills and get combat experience?
In BRF speak we call this type of rheoterical posts "Flamebaits" I choose to ignore the provocation. May god give you knowledge.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
pkpandey wrote:
tell me have u ever heard of a GARUD operation? even there are details of MARCOS ops now! won't they able to hone their skills and get combat experience?
Alright, youve had your say, now will you kindly stop talking rubbish? Garud is not intended for these sort of uses, it was raised for protection of IAF establishments, and SAR.pkpandey wrote: yeah! but i'm talking about their ops in INDIA. and carrying on this disc. is beyond the scope of this thread. All i wanted to say that sf can be used to take on high risk targets COVERTLY. And since para sf is already engaged in j&k & n-e GARUDS can be used that's it!
CRPF has a commando force previously known as COBRA, and now, as Sid points out, known as SAF. This force is used for special actions in Naxal areas.
Why not read through BR for a bit, before saying nonsensical things that end up sounding like, if I may paraphrase, "PKPandey has never heard of a Garud action, so, to please PKPandey, Papa, can you make Garuds fight the baddy Naxulums, Pretty Please"?
Dont derail the thread with nonsense!
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Garuds personnel are regularly attached to the Army's SF units engaged in CI operations(as are MARCOS personnel). They are not in fact a force of 1500 rookies.pkpandey wrote: yeah! but i'm talking about their ops in INDIA. and carrying on this disc. is beyond the scope of this thread. All i wanted to say that sf can be used to take on high risk targets COVERTLY. And since para sf is already engaged in j&k & n-e GARUDS can be used that's it!
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Really? It is known that MARCOS engage in CI ops, but I do know of Garuds engaged in such ops. AFAIK, it is not even part of their job. Can you give a source to the contrary?Viv S wrote:
Garuds personnel are regularly attached to the Army's SF units engaged in CI operations(as are MARCOS personnel). They are not in fact a force of 1500 rookies.
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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Where does the buck stop
A good and as usual right on the button analysis by K. S. Have to agree with him. The basic premise of the govt has been that the "Maoists are misguided people" , it is a "law and order problem" , it is a "development deficit problem" and of course, it is riddled with opportunistic electoral calculations like the Andhra experience has shown. When in power, you fight the naxals and when the govt changes, there is a "ceasefire" and "talks" (NTR, CBN, YSR) and when in opposition , use the naxal influence as a potential vote catcher.
No realization at all that this is a deadly serious full blown insurgency that you may have ignored all these years and is largely "contained" (if you still choose to ignore), but if you need to confront it, you need to be deadly serious about it and realize that it is not the same as "law and order" as in beating up a bunch of unarmed civilians in the cities or villages. You are fighting a military style fighting force. The IPS babus are out of depth in this. Separate the danda wielders from the military style fighters from each other and keep the danda boys in the settled areas and send them in only after the area is cleared and secured!
Heck, this idea of not deploying close in air support even in close support and recce roles is laughable. Why POLICE forces in any developed countries have a helicopter hovering above in SECONDS if there is a shootout/robbery/ chase kind of situation. If nothing else to direct friendlies to engage the bad guys and give better situational awareness.
Here we are stuck in analysis paralysis on whether to use "airpower" or not. Why should you get the IAF if you want choppers. You have the BSF and CRPF and other home ministry folks who have choppers. Get a dozen choppers or so from HAL / old surplus from the army /airforce and use them for support !. Matter over. In all these cases, we display excess babu giri.. Gosh this is the classic equivalent of "filling forms in triplicate" and academic masturbation at it's worst.
No sir. This Maoist business reminds me so much of Veerappan who pretty much ruled parts of the KA_TN border for close to 2 decades. There were some 300 policemen or so who were killed by him and his gang, including some pretty top cops. Veerappan could do what he did becuase operated across "jursidictional borders" (oh.. you know how it is, it is impossible to get to babus from different states to do ANYTHING together) and Veerappan was playing the political situation like a fiddle.
Thankfully, that shameful day never happened. Amma was back before that happened. The police learned from their earlier debacle. They changed tactics, realized that it was long drawn and finally gunned him down like a dog after a lot of hard work. NOW NO MORE TALK ABOUT VEERAPPAN WAS DUE TO DEVELOPMENT DEFICIT OR POLICE/GOVT OPPRESSION
The Maoist can be put down . But that will happen only if the pressure can be sustained across multiple states over many years and across many govt changes. Already there are weak links like Jharkand and maybe Orissa and Bengal where "talks are an option" / electoral calculations will enter the game, come elections.
More importantly. Where is the equivalent of Walter Dewaram in the center who will vow to wipe out the Maoists ?. Where is the leader with the firm resolve of purpose of Jayalalitha in the center ?
P. Chidambaram's words are instructive. He comes across like a total babe in the woods. "The Maoists have imposed ware on US" . He should be fired,if he didnt realize that the Maoists were fighting a WAR. WTF ?. Their entire literature and starategy is based on "People's War" . They knew they were fighting a war and PC and the Home Ministry babus thought they were controlling a riot in Hyderabad?
A good and as usual right on the button analysis by K. S. Have to agree with him. The basic premise of the govt has been that the "Maoists are misguided people" , it is a "law and order problem" , it is a "development deficit problem" and of course, it is riddled with opportunistic electoral calculations like the Andhra experience has shown. When in power, you fight the naxals and when the govt changes, there is a "ceasefire" and "talks" (NTR, CBN, YSR) and when in opposition , use the naxal influence as a potential vote catcher.
No realization at all that this is a deadly serious full blown insurgency that you may have ignored all these years and is largely "contained" (if you still choose to ignore), but if you need to confront it, you need to be deadly serious about it and realize that it is not the same as "law and order" as in beating up a bunch of unarmed civilians in the cities or villages. You are fighting a military style fighting force. The IPS babus are out of depth in this. Separate the danda wielders from the military style fighters from each other and keep the danda boys in the settled areas and send them in only after the area is cleared and secured!
Heck, this idea of not deploying close in air support even in close support and recce roles is laughable. Why POLICE forces in any developed countries have a helicopter hovering above in SECONDS if there is a shootout/robbery/ chase kind of situation. If nothing else to direct friendlies to engage the bad guys and give better situational awareness.
Here we are stuck in analysis paralysis on whether to use "airpower" or not. Why should you get the IAF if you want choppers. You have the BSF and CRPF and other home ministry folks who have choppers. Get a dozen choppers or so from HAL / old surplus from the army /airforce and use them for support !. Matter over. In all these cases, we display excess babu giri.. Gosh this is the classic equivalent of "filling forms in triplicate" and academic masturbation at it's worst.
No sir. This Maoist business reminds me so much of Veerappan who pretty much ruled parts of the KA_TN border for close to 2 decades. There were some 300 policemen or so who were killed by him and his gang, including some pretty top cops. Veerappan could do what he did becuase operated across "jursidictional borders" (oh.. you know how it is, it is impossible to get to babus from different states to do ANYTHING together) and Veerappan was playing the political situation like a fiddle.
Veerappan killed close to 100 TN Police in land mine attack on their bus,in one instance, something similar to the current CRPF debacle. Walter Devaram the IG of Police of TN and Jayalalitha vowed get Veerappan. Dewaram and his men hunted down Veerappan's gang and Veerappan was down to 4 men.. And then the govt changed and Dr Artiste was back in power and then pressure on Veerappan was removed, he grew back again.. and then there was the Rajkumar episode and there were feelers from Dr Artiste's proxies about general amnesty for Veerappan in return for a "surrender".Here too we had an entire industry of "human rights activists" and NGO singing the tune.Veerappan phenomenon is because of state oppression , development deficit yadda yada, without recognizing the fact that it was rank criminality and terrorizing the hill folk that was behind Veerappan's success
Thankfully, that shameful day never happened. Amma was back before that happened. The police learned from their earlier debacle. They changed tactics, realized that it was long drawn and finally gunned him down like a dog after a lot of hard work. NOW NO MORE TALK ABOUT VEERAPPAN WAS DUE TO DEVELOPMENT DEFICIT OR POLICE/GOVT OPPRESSION
The Maoist can be put down . But that will happen only if the pressure can be sustained across multiple states over many years and across many govt changes. Already there are weak links like Jharkand and maybe Orissa and Bengal where "talks are an option" / electoral calculations will enter the game, come elections.
More importantly. Where is the equivalent of Walter Dewaram in the center who will vow to wipe out the Maoists ?. Where is the leader with the firm resolve of purpose of Jayalalitha in the center ?
P. Chidambaram's words are instructive. He comes across like a total babe in the woods. "The Maoists have imposed ware on US" . He should be fired,if he didnt realize that the Maoists were fighting a WAR. WTF ?. Their entire literature and starategy is based on "People's War" . They knew they were fighting a war and PC and the Home Ministry babus thought they were controlling a riot in Hyderabad?
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Gaur wrote:Really? It is known that MARCOS engage in CI ops, but I do know of Garuds engaged in such ops. AFAIK, it is not even part of their job. Can you give a source to the contrary?Viv S wrote:
Garuds personnel are regularly attached to the Army's SF units engaged in CI operations(as are MARCOS personnel). They are not in fact a force of 1500 rookies.
The MARCOS have been involved in CT and other spec ops for a long time, as part of the IPKF they were involved in the attack on IIRC gurunagar an LTTE base, they have been involved in J&K and have been securing some of the water bodies on the border, the locals even gave them a nickname translating to Crocodile. Garuds being a newer force have yet to be part of missions details for which are readily available in the open domain
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
This is OT,but BR should have a compulsory '101 Know your forces' prior to membership.
pkpandey sahab,Garud's are nothing but glorified and highly trained security guards.Their primary and only responsibility is o protect the assets of the IAF which include airbases,runways,radar equipment,command centres,admin bldgs etc.Any tangible asset on IAF's balance sheet can be assigned Garud forces.
Please do not draw comparison between MARCOS and Garud Commando's as MARCOS does have the additional responsibility of carrying out operations in the sea such as negating sabotage and taking out enemy personnel on their ships(when fire power cannot be used).If they are on a peacekeeping mission in Congo then it simply is because the UN needs security at their establishments.
The CRPF has the CoBRA force to deal with specialist operations.But how long can we be having special forces within CPO's which are meant to be special anyway.They are not meant to be assigned to general law and order.Every assignment to a CPO is 'Special'.Unfortunately,haphazard training has been given to the CRPF over the years since insurgencies such as this keep propping up in diff parts of the country with diff tactics and topography.One can safely assume that the CRPF is doing a decent job in J&K today due to revised training and a diff set of procedures.The might of the Naxals was underestimated and hence few battalion's were given adequate training at the CIJW school.Instead CoBRA and Greyhound's were raised,but this was only supposed to be a temporary arrangement until more regular personnel were sent in.
IMO the success of he Greyhound and CoBRA ops gave a false impression to the centre that they were good enough to handle the Naxal operation/centre wanted to stretch them as far as possible to avoid the effort and financial cost involved in equipping the regulars.
pkpandey sahab,Garud's are nothing but glorified and highly trained security guards.Their primary and only responsibility is o protect the assets of the IAF which include airbases,runways,radar equipment,command centres,admin bldgs etc.Any tangible asset on IAF's balance sheet can be assigned Garud forces.
Please do not draw comparison between MARCOS and Garud Commando's as MARCOS does have the additional responsibility of carrying out operations in the sea such as negating sabotage and taking out enemy personnel on their ships(when fire power cannot be used).If they are on a peacekeeping mission in Congo then it simply is because the UN needs security at their establishments.
The CRPF has the CoBRA force to deal with specialist operations.But how long can we be having special forces within CPO's which are meant to be special anyway.They are not meant to be assigned to general law and order.Every assignment to a CPO is 'Special'.Unfortunately,haphazard training has been given to the CRPF over the years since insurgencies such as this keep propping up in diff parts of the country with diff tactics and topography.One can safely assume that the CRPF is doing a decent job in J&K today due to revised training and a diff set of procedures.The might of the Naxals was underestimated and hence few battalion's were given adequate training at the CIJW school.Instead CoBRA and Greyhound's were raised,but this was only supposed to be a temporary arrangement until more regular personnel were sent in.
IMO the success of he Greyhound and CoBRA ops gave a false impression to the centre that they were good enough to handle the Naxal operation/centre wanted to stretch them as far as possible to avoid the effort and financial cost involved in equipping the regulars.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
^
Please, that's outdated information. Look at Vayushakti 2010.pkpandey sahab,Garud's are nothing but glorified and highly trained security guards.Their primary and only responsibility is o protect the assets of the IAF which include airbases,runways,radar equipment,command centres,admin bldgs etc.Any tangible asset on IAF's balance sheet can be assigned Garud forces.
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Look, it is understood that the CPO's cannot handle this task in the current config.
They dont know what theyre doing. So, better to give 100 CRPF bns to the army, assign a DG, a Special DG, an ADG, and some IG's and DIG's from the Army, (like there is for Assam Rifles) allow it to pick and choose which personnel are fit for service (this might leave about 50 bns), and let them train them up the way they want. Oh, and create a new act to govern this force, based on the Army act. This entire process will only take about a year.
Then, let them lose on the Naxals.
As to officering, let the Army take the best of the jawans, send them to ACC type institutes, and turn them into real officers, like they do for the Assam Rifles cadre. This will ensure a strong backbone for the force.
At the moment, PC has been fooled by his IPS advisors into thinking that they, the IPS, can handle everything. Its their mismanagement of the situation that has brought things to this pass!
They dont know what theyre doing. So, better to give 100 CRPF bns to the army, assign a DG, a Special DG, an ADG, and some IG's and DIG's from the Army, (like there is for Assam Rifles) allow it to pick and choose which personnel are fit for service (this might leave about 50 bns), and let them train them up the way they want. Oh, and create a new act to govern this force, based on the Army act. This entire process will only take about a year.
Then, let them lose on the Naxals.
As to officering, let the Army take the best of the jawans, send them to ACC type institutes, and turn them into real officers, like they do for the Assam Rifles cadre. This will ensure a strong backbone for the force.
At the moment, PC has been fooled by his IPS advisors into thinking that they, the IPS, can handle everything. Its their mismanagement of the situation that has brought things to this pass!
Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion
Im not saying that they aren't good at what they do,they quite rightly do their job.But they are not combat prepared.Im not sure if we can afford to train them in CI and send them into some forest when they should be protecting billions worth of IAF assets & strategic locations.sunilUpa wrote:^Please, that's outdated information. Look at Vayushakti 2010.pkpandey sahab,Garud's are nothing but glorified and highly trained security guards.Their primary and only responsibility is o protect the assets of the IAF which include airbases,runways,radar equipment,command centres,admin bldgs etc.Any tangible asset on IAF's balance sheet can be assigned Garud forces.