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CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Jun 2017 21:17

(Replying to Akshay's post)

I wish this were true, but am not sure.

For example, how many J&K policemen are in favor of Pandit resettlement? Are the Kashmiri Muslims more loyal to their local policemen or to the cause of the Ummah?

These might be uncomfortable questions, but we need to ask them.

Added later: Khalistani terror was different. A significant proportion of Sikhs identified with India & Hinduism, even during the peak of insurgency. The insurgency itself was more political than a deep ideologial rift between Sikhism & Hinduism. With J&K, its different.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 17 Jun 2017 21:24

@prem kumar..true... but it does give a leg up to the forces. The problem is security forces have not been given free hand to handle the situation ( both JKP and IA). the indian danda should be visible and present. the situation is not as grave..if properly handled can be easily managed. it requires action on many fronts. LOC, hurriyats, their funding, the trade, the hawala and gunning for the terrorists. Why are politicians of JK scared of attending the funeral ? everyone is petrified of the Pakis hired guns in the valley. Looks to me no government is really serious about solving the problem.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 17 Jun 2017 22:02

few points, unlike the time the terrorists killed 5 policemen while robbing a bank where they tried to deflect the blame on the Army, this time they are openly admitting to the killings

they also are shooting in the face as they seem to think that hitting any other body parts, the security forces may only be injured costing them the perception battle

J&K police is a sieve as far as information leaks are concerned and is a known fact, so its not monolithic and hence expecting a unified position on KPs is not useful

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 18 Jun 2017 00:26

Infiltration, best countered Pakistani militants are fervently trying to gain access through Uri. This is a warning bell to step up counter-terror ops, intelligence — and outreach to Kashmiris

Uri offers multiple choices for targeting. The distance, of 46 km to Baramulla, has several army camps, labour sites, the National Hydro Power Corporation campus and frequent army convoys — all these offer lucrative targets. In December 2014, a terror attack on an artillery gun position at Mohora, on the Jhelum road, led to large-scale casualties. Infiltrated groups can travel further inwards, along routes which are difficult to monitor, and reach Rafiabad, where they become part of the Sopore and Baramulla terror grids.


They should make these as 'honeypot' sites and ambush them

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 18 Jun 2017 00:32

J and K police is a mixed bag for CI operations. It is more or less effective as any other state police in general law enforcement. But terrorism in state makes it very unique.

Local policemen have been accused of supporting terrorists. Infact it was a common narrative in 90s that army was fighting terrorists and police at the same time. Things may have changed a little, but it will be foolhardy to blindly trust kashmiri muslim policemen.

On the other hand, this force has played a ery important role in CI and intelligence gathering to help army too.

SOG are still vital line of defence in many places and the policemen attached work in very harsh conditions including in undercover.

There are hundreds of SPOs who earn a pittance while laying their lives on line everyday.

Some posters who are condoning this incident are more wrong than right. A lot of policemen die regularly by hands of terrorists. It is nothing new or something to be happy about. The policemen killed like that are usually the better ones. A very large number of JK policemen involved in CI are not from Kashmir anyway.

This incident made news probably because of number and rank. It might motivate the policemen in to fighting against the terrorists, but it will be too ambitious to expect the same from local muslims. Majority of the terrorists killed this year have been locals, same stock as the se policemen. In my opinion, call of militant islam is stronger in local populace and it will not turn their opinion against terrorists in any significantl way.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby A Deshmukh » 18 Jun 2017 11:53

It is important that Indian Muslims are seen to be fighting and sadly even dying in the fight against Muslim terrorists / jihadis / druggists / jilted-lovers-turned-heroes / wannabe-heroes.
Otherwise rest of the countrymen will keep questioning their loyalties.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 12:17

Jamwal, I am certainly not condoning policemen dying and I completely agree that the best of the lot have been martyred. Also agree on SOG etc. I was just explaining what Manjgu said.

Re some points of others - Punjab was a different case. There wasn't significant local support as Sikhism and Hindusim are brothers (I always say Sikhs are elder brothers of the hindus). There was completely freedom to go after the terrorists, no human rights BS, no social media, and a IB that could be sealed.

The valley is different - a porus LC because of terrain and also because its much longer, not imposing costs on Pak, social media, media, internet and our media (its easy to underestimate the damage that likes of NDTV have done). And of course the issue of Islam. But this is the interesting thing, radical isalm is not really indegenous to the valley and there wasn't that much of it till the late 90s at least. I have served there in CI Ops, interrogated terrorists and had some idea of whats going on. In fact there was a saying there that if the terrorists were half as brave and 1/4th as motivated as the LTTE we would have lost the valley. But there were foreign muslim terrorists coming in some (not all) of who were heavily indoctrinated and I remember thinking that if Pak can create a pool of highly motivated islamic cannon fodder in the valley we will have a big problem on our hands. The civil administration anyway wasn't great and a lot of work was being done by the army and this has only grown under Op Sadbhavna. So in this vacum we were always open to being outflanked by Pak radicalising young muslims. And its a global phenomena now.

There were so many things we could have done, abrogate article 370 and start resettling the valley from the 90s onwards, new delimitation to get Jammu proper representation in the assembly (Jammu is grossly under represented), impose costs on Pak (we have never done), give a good solid administration (hard because we dont do that anywhere in the country) and start hitting the hurriyat. Instead we experimented with democracy. And democracy and Islam dont mix - Arab spring, Turkey, London Borough of Tower Hamlets are good example. When you let Islam become the narrative then your problems start. Look at Bangladesh.

I don't like JKP being hit but its a fact that the more motivated they are against the terrorist and more we move away from Islam narrative the better it is. Whether it will help in a signifcant way its difficult to say so there I do agree with Jamwal.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ricky_v » 18 Jun 2017 12:23

Why are Sikhs considered by some to be the elder brother of Hindus? Sanatana Dharma is way older than Sikhism, so shouldn't it be the other way round?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 12:29

Because the elder brother of a sanatan dharm family in Punjab would become a sikh to fight against muslim repression. When Guru Gobind Singh said 'De Shiva bar mohe.......nischay kar apni jeet karon' he was asking Lord Shiva for a vardaan to help him fight the evil that Aurangzeb was perpetraing. Its sad that we dont know this. Just saying sanatan is not good enough...you have to fight for it to protect it. And the Sikhs did. Lord Krishna said this in the Geeta too - no renounciation during a dharam yudh. You have to pick a side and fight.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jun 2017 12:35, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ricky_v » 18 Jun 2017 12:33

Oh okay, I knew about this familial practice but the extrapolation to an entire religion was something I did not consider.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 12:41

Sikhism was created for one reason only - to fight Islam. For that Guru Gobind Singh had to eliminate the barriers of caste for example, he said 'be soldier saints like our rishis of old'. That's why kesh comes in. He was a big devotee of Lord Shiva - the breaking of identity/class barriers, kesh, leaving aside ornamental trappings and going for the one truth etc are all dear to Lord Shiva. In fact every memory serves right he even wrote a Punjabi work based on the Markendya Puran.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jun 2017 16:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 18 Jun 2017 15:00

the south kashmir area as u all know if the garh of PDP...their support base..and this is reason JKP and IA are kind of bound on what kind of action they can take in that area..this is why imperative that PDP govt is dismissed ASAP... JKP and IA needs to be give free hand to settle the situation. Mufti wants to protect her home turf for the next election..see I didnt go for Policemen funeral..vote for me !!

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby krisna » 18 Jun 2017 16:30

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Sikhism was created for one reason only - to fight Islam. For that Guru Gobind Singh had to eliminate the barriers of caste for example, he said 'be soldier saints like our rishis of old'. That's why kesh comes in. He was a big devotee of Lord Shiva - the breaking of caste barriers, kesh, levaing aside ornamental trappings an dgoing for the one truth etc are all dear to Lord Shiva.


OT
my apologies if my understanding is faulty.

what is this "breaking caste barriers".

Did Guru said this word or something else.

By projecting it as "caste" we give ammunition to the already existing caste myths.

end of OT.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 16:49

krisna wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Sikhism was created for one reason only - to fight Islam. For that Guru Gobind Singh had to eliminate the barriers of caste for example, he said 'be soldier saints like our rishis of old'. That's why kesh comes in. He was a big devotee of Lord Shiva - the breaking of caste barriers, kesh, levaing aside ornamental trappings an dgoing for the one truth etc are all dear to Lord Shiva.


OT
my apologies if my understanding is faulty.

what is this "breaking caste barriers".

Did Guru said this word or something else.

By projecting it as "caste" we give ammunition to the already existing caste myths.

end of OT.


Point noted. My post is edited till I can research the exact words of Guru. I'm a great admirer/bhakt of Guru Gobind Singh and Shivaji. They saved our civilisation and were great visionaries, writers, admisntrators and warriors. But enough OT.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jun 2017 16:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby krisna » 18 Jun 2017 16:53

^^^^
thanks

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 16:59

What are the repurcussions of dismissing the Mehbooba govt ?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 18 Jun 2017 18:15

The thing is that there are Plenty of local J&K cops from the valley and the neighbouring regions, who are being harassed and killed by the terrorists. They hit back in equal measure, as much as they are allowed to do so by the netas.
But give them a free-er hand, and they will can be really badass. They have all the intel from the galis and slums

The terrorists, going against the police is going to be their undoing

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 18 Jun 2017 18:55

no major repurcussions of dismissing PDP govt...what are they doing anyway in name of administration?? its giving tacit support to the terrorists... have to go full throtle against the Pakis,terrorists, OGW's, traders ( who finance the violence), the hurryrats... there is a price of inaction and price of action. right now we are paying price of inaction !!

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jun 2017 19:00

sure, but wont indian media go beserk ? how would people in the valley react ? I agree it needs to be done but do you think there is appetite for it

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Jun 2017 19:08

please restrict this thread to CT/COIN only, not larger socio-political issues unless they have a direct relation to the operations.

- Rahul M

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 18 Jun 2017 19:14

people in valley would welcome dismissal of PDP govt... sooner or later it will have to be done..with each day the jihadis are getting emboldened... when was last time we heard of an attack by a 15 man jihadi group? continuation of PDP BJP govt has direct impact in fueling violence as S. kashmir is the PDP base and the state govt is soft peddling violence perpetrated by the terrorists.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 18 Jun 2017 21:19

expect disturbance to increase as the wannabe jihadis will be emboldened by kriket teams pss poor show.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 18 Jun 2017 22:54

:rotfl: Dismissal of pdp-,bjp gobarment ?
Who will it help, why and how ?

Why is everyone thinking that terrorism is worse now ? Has anyone considered that opposition nc is as bad if not worse and many of it's members are wannabe islamist ghazis ?

What is alternative to current regime and how will it help eradicating terrorism ?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2017 23:00

manjgu wrote:this is very good development from a counter insurgency point of view..when local policeman get killed ...

Our men have died. The least you can do is word your sentence properly. The above post is really unfortunate. I am not warning you only because I know you meant something else. But please exercise extreme caution on such sensitive issues.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 19 Jun 2017 11:53

Indranil wrote:You can still word your sentence more carefully. This is an extremely sensitive issue. Our men have died. Your emotions are spot on. But your sentence is horribly worded.

Which sentence ?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Jun 2017 20:41

I messed up and forgot to reference the sentence I was talking about. Corrected the post now.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 21 Jun 2017 02:00

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Sikhism was created for one reason only - to fight Islam.


LOLz
very myopical (if that is a word) way of looking at things.

Considering Sikhism started with Guru Nanak and his beloved companions included Bhai Mardana who was a Muslim.
Fighting Mughals who were Muslims turned out to be the one of the last lasting outcomes instead of being a primary reason.
Guru Nanak travelled as far and wide as Mecca and Medina. Trust me he was not on RAW's payroll at that time.
;-)

Many people including Sikhs have this misconception that it was born to fight Islam, those who cannot explain the era of the first FIVE gurus then turn to Guru Gobind Singh as the point of reference where Sikhism was born. Again LOLz.
Sikhism was born with Guru Nanak asking the WHY?
The creation of Khalsa was the second and final military_fication of Sikhism.

So just as jesus was born a Jew, Guru Nanak was born a Hindu.
Sikhism started with Guru Nanak as he could sought to understand the ways as human being first and challenged tradition and customs and everything from Punjab to Antarctica.
And the tradition continued with another 4 or 5 gurus. Sikhs (shishya/ students) as they considered themselves, must have been considered as a sect by Hindus and Muslims and something to be ignored and considered.

This became an issue for the Mughal rulers who then started considering them as a threat due to their growing popularity and unexplainable growth not supported by brutal conversation of the population. The Mughals in DELHI were going 'WTF is going on John' ?

The fifth guru made great strides in compiling the adi granth and so on and the pillars of sikhism were created, installed and solidified. John in DELHI went WTF again. This must have unnerved Delhi seriously. He was arrested and executed.
Thus started the oppression which the sixth guru (son of 5th Guru) decided to fight against and Sikhism was military_fied for the First time.
lets fast forward to the end.

Guru Gobind Singh had a bit of redux thrust upon him as the 9th Guru (father of 10th) was arrested and executed for upholding the rights of Kashmiri Pandits who were being converted.

Now Guru Gobind Singh did a lot more than the 6th Guru in addition to fighting and military manoeuvres, he prepared Sikhsim to transcend many a levels.
He created and floated an identity that would not die without the stewardship of Gurus.
He transferred power from Gurus (mortals) to Guru Granth Sahib (the Holy book) thus again leaving Sikhism strategically independent.

Hope this helps :-)

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jun 2017 03:06

Nice Post Khalsa. I learnt a lot!

You have redeemed yourself from starting the Single Engine Thread ;)

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 21 Jun 2017 06:55

^^^ Thank you Admiral.
:D

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 21 Jun 2017 07:58

khalsa ji is right..a) sikhism was part/influenced of/by the bhakti movement ( to challenge the traditions, rituals of the existing religions and also to pick the good things from the existing religions and also to make spiritual pursuit/religion accessible/understandable to all espicially to move away from sanskrit )..the Guru Granth sahib has verses from gurus/spiritual leaders from different religions. b) the sant sipahi metaphor has also dual meaning..one is the straight forward saint/war soldier idea and other one is sipahi as someone who fights the desires/sins ( jisne mun maar daala usi ko soorma kahna). c) though OT ..the 1st guru said in discussion with some other spiritual masters ( sidh purush/men) of the time ..called Sidh gosht ..'shabad guru surat dhun chela' ..the real guru is not me or a human or a book but the true guru is the naam/shabd/word/logos and real sikh/follower/disciple is the surat or the soul. d) even the Granth sahib propogates meditative practice which is similar to the hindu/buddhist meditative practice..which is to raise conciousness from lower chakras to the eye centre/3rd eye/teesra til/ or also called Daswa dwar ( the 10th door)..and to listen to the celestial music( naam) and see the celestial light. the 9 doors are the body orifices/senses which open to the world..the 10th door opens to god..withdraw attention from 9 doors and turn into the 10th door.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vishal » 21 Jun 2017 10:10

2 terrorists killed... but we had to stop hunting at nightfall

Srinagar: Two militants were today killed in an encounter with security forces in Rafiabad area of Kashmir's Baramulla district, an Army official said.
::
::
A police official said the search operation was halted for the night but the forces maintained the cordon to stop the militants from escaping.

The operation was resumed this morning and the gunfight started after the trapped militants opened fire on the forces, he said.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 21 Jun 2017 11:05

Halted for night or for iftar ?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vishal » 21 Jun 2017 12:05

jamwal wrote:Halted for night or for iftar ?


I would've said for iftar but halting ops at night goes back to the beginning. It forces our troops to forgo a lot of their advantages while giving the terrorists and their supporters a know window of opportunity.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vishal » 21 Jun 2017 12:11

This has come up for discussion and while there were some good posts on why NVG's might be ineffective in certain conditions the lack of these has been a persistent disadvantage.

I can't get the image up but the link below is a screenshot of a discussion from earlier.

http://imgur.com/Lt1kruO

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vishal » 22 Jun 2017 20:00

Poonch: Two Army jawans killed in attack by Pakistan’s Border Action Team on patrolling party

The basic premise on which Pakistan has based its actions is that they are they crazier ones in the fight and any response by India will result in a catastrophic escalation for which Pakistan is not responsible. Their 'crazier than thou' bluff has to be called... for our sake.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vishal » 23 Jun 2017 09:56

Senior police officer lynched by mob outside Jamia Masjid in Srinagar

It is time to take the gloves off.

Excerpt: :“The officer was on frisking duty at the Jamia Masjid. He was carrying out his duties as usual when the miscreants attacked him,” informed sources told IANS.

“He tried to free himself and even fired in self-defence, injuring three. But the mob managed to lynch him,” the sources said.

Reports said Pandit’s security guards ran away after they found the mob too large to be handle."

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jun 2017 10:23

Kashmir should be handled like how Tibet is handled by China, first get the media out and start settling your people

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby DrRatnadip » 23 Jun 2017 13:15

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/mob-lyn ... 279893.cms

Police sources said that Pandith was seen taking pictures of people coming out of Jamia Masjid in Nowhatta area around 3 am on Friday. They said that when people tried to catch Pandith and stop him from taking photos, he allegedly fired several shots from his pistol, injuring three people.

TOI reort somehow trying to justify bloody attackers..

Maybe he filmed something which he was not supposed to..??

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby DrRatnadip » 24 Jun 2017 19:36

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/jk-two- ... 300114.cms

NEW DELHI: One jawan was martyred and two others injured after heavily armed terrorists attacked Central Reserve Police Force's (CRPF) patrol party in Srinagar's Pantha Chowk area on the Srinagar-Jammu national highway.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby DrRatnadip » 25 Jun 2017 19:29

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/srinaga ... 310864.cms

SRINAGAR: Security forces on Sunday gunned down two terrorists holed up inside a school on the outskirts of Srinagar, ending an encounter of over 14 hours in which two Army men were also injured.


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