CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Nov 2014 23:10

deejay wrote:^^^ SATA Battery?

Army SATA squadrons are equipped with bigger UAVs. Herons and like. I think this tactical UAV is probably part of the TOE.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Nov 2014 23:47

This is probably some ad hoc purchase. Newer ones are the more sophisticated, compact Israeli and desi ones.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Dec 2014 00:13

The Salala template

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2014 04:40

Long story short, providence seems to have averted a still bigger tragedy. I think Jammu was the intended target.

Was it providence r solid intel work since i recall one of the earliest articles on this encounter mentioned that security forces had acted on these turds based on specific inputs?

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 01 Dec 2014 06:37

joygoswami wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:They look like Paki army/SSG personnel - that pic of the burnt pig needs to be publicized to all wannabe pigs waiting across the border to hammer the point home that if they do Jihad in India, they won't be getting any 72 (half burnt pigs are denied entry into jannat).
The pigs killed yesterday look too sdre to be Pak SSG Personnel. Most likely they are Kashmiri village idiots. An mango Paki SSG personal would be a much taller 6 feet plus TFTA hunk.

Edit: They have been wearing such gear for some time. Ex: Feb 19 in Chrar-e-sharif, Aug 24 encounter in Kupwara , Nov 14 in Kulgam etc.

http://u4uvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... itanat.jpg

http://u4uvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... d-site.jpg

http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/ll_a_s/ ... c_rate=230

http://kashmir-today.net/wp-content/upl ... 4812_n.jpg

Source : u4uvoice.com/

Heck..the makeup guys from "The Walking Dead" should copy the looks of the last porki for the next season..

-M

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Dec 2014 09:22

Paki SSG isn't that TFTA hunk type.

jayaaren · Post by **jayaaren** » 01 Dec 2014 10:15

While we are not privy to the tactics of the army units and personnel on the ground at Arnia, it is surprising that we lost 3 of ours (Naik Kulwinder & Lance Naik Joginder of 5 Sikh LI and Naik Pawan Singh of Para (SF) against 4 terrorists. As a professional all volunteer army our tactics should have been better than theirs. This is not to detract from the courage of my brethren who fought and died that day, but may be the units involved (157 TA, 5 JAK RIF, 5 Sikh LI & Para SF) should critically assess the mission - both what was done right and what was done wrong. I would have thought that deployment of UAVs, BMPs and the use Para SF with the TA, JAK Rif & Sikh LI as support elements was to prevent casualties. But once again as I was not on the ground and not part of the tactical units involved, I will refrain from a critique of their tactics until such time that such information is available to all of us. Reminds me of Patton's words "No ******** ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ******** die for his country."

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Dec 2014 10:21

It's hard to tell if most of the casualties occurred in the initial encounter or not. These ops are very risky to begin with and the terrorists start off with the upper hand. I recall reading in No Easy Day how a bunch of US Delta Force commandos died while trying to take down 1 well hidden talibunny in a hut.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Dec 2014 11:16

These soldiers were killed while they were patrolling and the terrorists hurled agremade at their vehicle. Encounter started after this grenade attack.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 01 Dec 2014 11:38

If we go by these reports:

Link:Arnia Firefight

Then it becomes clear that the local TA Battalion first made contact with the terrorists. It very well could have been based on general int reports. Plus the soldiers who lost their lives were from SikhLI most likely during the subsequent assault.

I have also come to know through paanwalas that a couple of suicide vests were recovered. If true then, Rohit's theory could be correct. It was a bigger plan in the works.

Couple of points, The entire sector all along has defensive positions built in depth and are meant to be held during war.

It will always be an uphill battle if you are asked to assault what looks like an sandbagged position and a concrete bunker among open fields. Not an easy proposition besides we donot know what kind of fire support was being provided by the Rangers once the terrorists fell back to the bunkers afyer contact was established.

Another thing people need to consider when it is asked why soo much time is being taken. Any assault when it starts to result in casualties will bog down. It is reasonable of the OC to reassess, consolidate his position and consider his options thereon. CI Ops tactics are completely different from conventional war

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 01 Dec 2014 11:39

Aditya G wrote:
deejay wrote:^^^ SATA Battery?
Army SATA squadrons are equipped with bigger UAVs. Herons and like. I think this tactical UAV is probably part of the TOE.

Maybe you are right saar.

On the other hand, those dead piglets from this encounter do not look like Kashmiris. Look surprisingly similar to TSPA uniformed jee-ha-die now with the 'clear-like- X-Ray plate' 72.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 01 Dec 2014 11:43

A good way to end these CI Ops (specifically, these ones like Arnia) quickly is to use those Rudras or Mi 25 / 35. I know, I know, I have heard the opposition before on all counts.

Do we have 'it' in us to take such decisions? While the negatives are discussed often the pluses need to be looked at.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2014 11:48

jamwal wrote:These soldiers were killed while they were patrolling and the terrorists hurled agremade at their vehicle. Encounter started after this grenade attack.

Are para SF generally assigned on routine patrolling activities?

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Dec 2014 13:37

Can we not post gruesome images of the dead on the thread itself? If you want to post these kinds of images, just put a link and caption with an appropriate warning. Admins, please do the needful.

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 01 Dec 2014 14:59

I disagree with the last comment - Such "gruesome" images should not only be publicly published but also sent across the border as a greeting card. Nothing gives me a better "dil ki rahat" when I see how the pigs were dispatched. Better than nuclear weapons such photos are the real deterrence.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2014 15:04

^^^ What about underage Children that visit this forum?! Or simply the fact that I really dont want to see torn up human beings (irrespective of their politics) without being given a choice?

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2014 15:37

brvarsh wrote:I disagree with the last comment - Such "gruesome" images should not only be publicly published but also sent across the border as a greeting card. Nothing gives me a better "dil ki rahat" when I see how the pigs were dispatched. Better than nuclear weapons such photos are the real deterrence.

^^ Please put up a NSFW sign since was pretty scary to suddenly open the page with all co-workers around!!!

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 01 Dec 2014 15:49

@rkhanna, those are not human beings after all, neither, when they were alive nor now with their dead body in such conditions. like one poster have said, these pics have more deterrent value, can deter a wannabe piglet.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2014 16:25

@rkhanna, those are not human beings after all, neither, when they were alive nor now with their dead body in such conditions. like one poster have said, these pics have more deterrent value, can deter a wannabe piglet.

Unfortunately I am not qualified (as most on this forum) to judge the Humanity of the terrorist killed. And Assuming BRF is NOT a Snuff site AND considering CHILDREN DO come here I would suggest (politely) that it would be better to provide links rather than the images themselves.

As for "Deterrence" that's a fallacy of argument i would rather not get into

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2014 18:39

the terrorists have element of surprise ...in which they can inflict casualties ... a man cant be 200% alert all the time... in fact i would say given that they were 3/4 they inflicted very little casualties...

jayaaren · Post by **jayaaren** » 01 Dec 2014 18:47

Vaibhav ji, Raja Bose ji & Jamwal ji,

If the casualties occurred when the vehicle was fragged, so was the area being patrolled by the units involved. News reports indicate that units of 157 TA, 5 Sikh LI, 5 JAK Rif and ? Para (SF) were on site. So were entire battalions involved or just platoons of each battalion involved. Also, when 157 TA made first contact, how did the other 3 units become involved. Seems to be a lot of manpower from different units involved. It would be good to give a thought to the C3I scenario on-site. Also considering the scenario that while 5 Sikh LI might got bogged down cause of the casualties, how much battle ready was the unit involved, again a question of conditioning and training.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 01 Dec 2014 18:50

There is a video which shows men with Tavor (SF) getting out from ALH. So SF were probably brought from outside.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Dec 2014 20:03

Maoist attack in Chhattisgarh.

Link

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Dec 2014 20:37

Raja Bose wrote:That's not a tank but then DDM won't know a mortar from a motor as Sam would have put it.

They cannot surpass the Pioneer article which reported on Indian Navy "cannonballs" bouncing off a ship's hull

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Dec 2014 20:46

srai wrote:Can we not post gruesome images of the dead on the thread itself? If you want to post these kinds of images, just put a link and caption with an appropriate warning. Admins, please do the needful.

Indeed. I have edited the links to remove the inlining.
Gentlemen, please avoid inlining the graphic photos. Just the url link (with a NSFW warning) please.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Dec 2014 22:39

Thanks. This is not about deterring Pakis. That will come if you drop the images on their head on their terror sites. Meantime, those of us who surf the site will not have to explain why gruesome pics are being loaded up.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Dec 2014 23:13

I just hope we see a day soon where Rudra/LCH/UAV mounted low-cost CLGMs take out these bunkers or groups of infiltrating terrorists. End it quickly, cleanly without own casualties.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2014 23:15

jayaaren wrote:Vaibhav ji, Raja Bose ji & Jamwal ji,

If the casualties occurred when the vehicle was fragged, so was the area being patrolled by the units involved. News reports indicate that units of 157 TA, 5 Sikh LI, 5 JAK Rif and ? Para (SF) were on site. So were entire battalions involved or just platoons of each battalion involved. Also, when 157 TA made first contact, how did the other 3 units become involved. Seems to be a lot of manpower from different units involved. It would be good to give a thought to the C3I scenario on-site. Also considering the scenario that while 5 Sikh LI might got bogged down cause of the casualties, how much battle ready was the unit involved, again a question of conditioning and training.

While one cannot comment on strategy on ground, a bit of deductive reasoning based on what one knows helps.

To begin with, understand that region between Pathankot to Jammu has heavy army presence - with Pathankot, Samba and Jammu being main concentration nodes (Pathankot being largest).

Secondly, scene of fire-fight is not very deep from the border; the bunker(s) which militants used to hide are not 'abandoned' by IA as some news reports would have you believe but are part of defensive network in the area which formations/infantry units will man during hostilities. I don't know how many people noticed (may be Vaibhav) but the berm of Ditch-cum-bund (DCB) in the area was visible in some of the pictures. These are defenses to meant primarily to keep enemy armor out.

Why I'm going into all these details? Simply to tell you that troops which responded to this situation came from infantry formation in the region whose task is conventional war and not CI Ops. If you look up Arnia on Google maps (it is easily seen), you'll see that that it lies almost due east from Samba. The location from which these troops most probably came.

So, most probably, when the news about fire-fight broke, READY/AVAILABLE troops from nearest formation(s) were rushed to the scene. Remember, hind-sight is 20/20 and we now know that there were only 4 terrorists. But the commander on ground has to be prepared for worst. Attack on 16 Cavalry happened only last year. So, he would send troops to assess and handle the situation. And contain it from spreading further.

In the meanwhile, other troops in the infantry battalions would've been put on alert. Remember, troops in peace-time locations aren't moving around with guns at the ready! They need some time to change into combat dress and get the weapon issued from armory or Kot (as we call it in the army) and for transport to be readied. Don't forget, immediate action would've also been taken to seal the cantonment/military installations and other vulnerable areas.

Once the situation was locked down after initial contact and fire-fight and terrorists were pinned down, IA decided on further course of action. Including bringing in BMP-2 when it surmised that piglets were holed up in a bunker.

From what I understand, most casualties in CI Ops happen during initial contact between security forces and terrorists when they have element of surprise and situation is quite fluid. This is also the make and break time for terrorists to make a getaway. It takes some time to get hold of entire situation and fix the position of militants. Then, the game of wearing them down and overwhelming them with sheer number happens.

Hope this helps.

PS: The Para (SF) most probably came from Udhampur which is (was?) home to 9 Para (SF). A short helicopter ride away.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Dec 2014 23:53

All this tells me is that we are not hurting these bastads enough, because of which they still think of coming into India. We are using our army as a human tripwire. The jihadis and their sponsors should really be made to pay 10x for each of these incidents with massive fire assaults each time an event like this occurs or some other form of brutal response.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 02 Dec 2014 00:04

Karan M wrote:All this tells me is that we are not hurting these bastads enough, because of which they still think of coming into India. We are using our army as a human tripwire. The jihadis and their sponsors should really be made to pay 10x for each of these incidents with massive fire assaults each time an event like this occurs or some other form of brutal response.

I posted this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6847&p=1759149#p1759149 on middle east forum. It is clear that there are no 'international' standards except for selective toughest standards for India, and this is why there are 'international' powers lecturing Indians but are silent totally when it comes to their friends doing what pakis are doing.

Therefore, Indian Army needs to take all paki bunkers in enemy sector down whenever there is a infiltration attempt. The uniformed jihadis will know that they are looking at their own death whenever they see a terrorist hiding in occupied J&K.

Plus the govt. must form a policy to take back occupied lands of J&K that are used to hide Islamic terrorists, or even at the International Border in case pakis show such jihadi characteristic.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2014 00:07

We need to really hurt these terrorist pigs using any and every means at our disposal. This BS Gandhi, ahimsa shtick has got us nowhere. That dude has kicked the bucket long time back, high time his impractical legacy was thrown into the dustbin and hard edged methods adopted.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 02 Dec 2014 00:10

Karan M wrote:We are simply taking too many casualties for deterring these jerks. Some way has to be found to hit these guys so hard they won't even think of doing such stuff. Mr Doval, please act fast.

Rohit, good analysis on the enemies objective and our response. Karan, if we want this to stop then we have to change the basic equation. We are containing attacks on our soil. We should be fighting on theirs. But there is no appetite in India for that. I spoke to a friend in GS (Ops) of one of the formations in 16 Corps. During the last firing while we retaliated we did not escalate on weapon calibre...we did not use any arty. We have to use arty. I have long advocated moving arty from strike corps and just letting them have it. Escalation control is still firmly in babu's hands. Karan, you are right....we have to hurt them enough.

The other thing we have to do is to launch serious int operations in Balochistan and Sind. We should also start recruiting Pak officers and politicians for espionage using various hook and crook and traps. Pakistan is a mess and people must be vulnerable to recruitment...false flag if necessary. For God's sake even Sharif can be recruited...uncover his hidden billions and threaten to tell the public.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Dec 2014 00:33

any pak post/formation on the border that aids infiltration or conducts attacks in our soil should not exist after the event, period. use any and every long range weapon available to army short of SSMs. nothing else would deliver the message.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2014 00:35

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:We are simply taking too many casualties for deterring these jerks. Some way has to be found to hit these guys so hard they won't even think of doing such stuff. Mr Doval, please act fast.
Rohit, good analysis on the enemies objective and our response. Karan, if we want this to stop then we have to change the basic equation. We are containing attacks on our soil. We should be fighting on theirs. But there is no appetite in India for that. I spoke to a friend in GS (Ops) of one of the formations in 16 Corps. During the last firing while we retaliated we did not escalate on weapon calibre...we did not use any arty. We have to use arty. I have long advocated moving arty from strike corps and just letting them have it. Escalation control is still firmly in babu's hands. Karan, you are right....we have to hurt them enough.

The other thing we have to do is to launch serious int operations in Balochistan and Sind. We should also start recruiting Pak officers and politicians for espionage using various hook and crook and traps. Pakistan is a mess and people must be vulnerable to recruitment...false flag if necessary. For God's sake even Sharif can be recruited...uncover his hidden billions and threaten to tell the public.

Exactly sir, exactly!!! We are using our people, our valuable people to constantly react on our own side. For what? Some misguide d idealism from people who never went into harms way themselves? We have to use arty, targeted strike, deep CT ops, and and every means to punish these scumbags for what they are doing to Indians.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2014 00:38

Rahul M wrote:any pak post/formation on the border that aids infiltration or conducts attacks in our soil should not exist after the event, period. use any and every long range weapon available to army short of SSMs. nothing else would deliver the message.

I hope Doval Ji reads the anger and angst the Indian public has on losing its valuable sons to these worthless jerks from across the border who can create nothing, do nothing but plunder. Morons need to be taught their place.

VijayN · Post by **VijayN** » 02 Dec 2014 03:13

Karan M wrote:
Rahul M wrote:any pak post/formation on the border that aids infiltration or conducts attacks in our soil should not exist after the event, period. use any and every long range weapon available to army short of SSMs. nothing else would deliver the message.
I hope Doval Ji reads the anger and angst the Indian public has on losing its valuable sons to these worthless jerks from across the border who can create nothing, do nothing but plunder. Morons need to be taught their place.

Doesn't using artillery signify escalation, and a precursor for a full out war?

I still remember reading, more than a decade ago L K Advaniji advocating use of Hot pursuits and taking the enemy in their backyard. I think this depends on the dispensation at the center, and am sure a more assertive Modi gov't have plans in place. Perhaps it is also time to redo what I K Gujralji undid, having special op groups operating in the hinterland. A tit for tat (aka balochistan) is a good idea - I mean it would be naive to assume we are not playing a "role" there already. However, I don't think that is enough, we should be in a position where we can stop the scum right in their backyard. Sever the head of this threat or atleast inflict enough damage that will make them think twice.

I however feel today, we simply don't have that leverage to call the shots. And this is perhaps true with our other neighbors also, except for empty threats can we actually ask any of them to do our bidding? We need to build the capability/capacity that can architect regime changes, have the tools of the trade to squeeze nuts as and when needed, change situations at our will, etc. But, I guess am asking for too much given that we are not an aggressive nation, we have hazaar problems taking care of our population. Where are the resources for such a geo-strategic play?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Dec 2014 09:51

To slightly deviate.. if you look at the pictures of the SF deployed (and previous pictures) looks like only officer Cadre are getting the new FAST type helmets while the Grunts still have to make do with the substandard gear. When will our "Helmet" woes end..

And why is it that all the fancy gear only comes out in NatGeo/NDTV Documentaries but never for real live ops.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Dec 2014 11:30

^^^ In the lower picture, the second soldier from the end is also wearing a helmet. Is it the new FAST type helmet?

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 02 Dec 2014 11:35

Good Reads

The LoC Fence has delivered

By:Lt Gen (Retd) Syed Ata Hasnain

A True Soldier

By:Captain Sudhir Bloeria, IAS

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Dec 2014 13:33

Thats a Tavor 21 gun in the last picture