CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

[Thakur_B]

Looks like the Pakis as coming back to local nincompoops since they are unable to push their piglets through the fence and our media is busy blaming chairman modi about it
http://www.hindustantimes.com/videos/india/watch-kashmir-s-new-age-militants/video-IBR27LnHHz5IO1ewUqhVzM.html
Starts off pretending to be a serious documentary, ends up short of modi ji with devil horns and baby blood dripping off his mouth

[RoyG]

One more data point on CI Ops and Indian Army - before Iraq-2 happened, a single formation in the Indian Army, 8 Mountain Division, had more CI Ops experience than the ENTIRE US Army! (source: Ravi Rikhye, Orbat.Com)

Experience counted starting what year? The Americans spent eight eventful years in Vietnam engaged in pretty heavy duty COIN, starting with MACV-SOG ops in late 1964.

You have to constantly refine tactics and strategy over different environments. Think of it like inoculation and boosters.

[Sid]

You're talking about his now, when the insurgency in J&K is a pale shadow of its former self. It was a very different case in the 90s when it was at its peak. The media wasn't as active back then (and had limited access anyway) but speak to those who were on the ground back then, and you'll realise it was a very brutal, very bloody and very ruthless struggle to get to the nice comfortable situation we're in today. It was nothing like a typical UN operation. And like in the North East, at the end public sentiment was far worse than that facing the ISAF in Afghanistan today.

The crucial difference is that we were fighting on our own land and we were in it for the long haul - it wasn't an expeditionary war. The Americans will go back home by 2018, but we intend to be around, two generations from now when separatist sentiment has faded, just like it did in Punjab.

In the one actual expedition we engaged in i.e. Op Pawan, we were confronted with the same fundamental issue that faces the US in Afghanistan today - we were outsiders. So even with the best of intentions, those who we were there to supposedly assist (Tamils) as well as the Sri Lankan govt, both knew that we were an impermanent part of the landscape. And contrary to the public image of the campaign, we did eventually have the LTTE on the run and had secured most of the urban areas (at a very steep cost, paid in blood). And we didn't hold back on the firepower either. But in the end, fact remains it wasn't our home and the other side knew that it could wait us out.

North east was much worse, and true, local population was as anti army as it can get. But during those days they were activiely supported by Chinese.

J&K was in very bad shape too, riots/people stoning army convoys/ insurgents freely roaming streets. But it was still a notch down as compared to north east.

When troops started overflowing the state then only situation started to stablize. In north east, Op Rihno changed the situation. But ULFA still has active local population support.

[Aditya G]

RSTV documentary on BSF in Chattisgarh.

BSF has formed a motorcycle based QRT, called 'Head Hunters'

Since there is no APSPA in force in naxal areas, even BSF does not have powers of arrest.

[Manish_P]

Narendra Singh Chaudhary – ‘Steel Man’, Tragically Passed Away After A Test Grenade Unexpectedly Set Off

Narendra Singh Chaudhary, also known as ‘Steel Man’, passed away 2 weeks ago due to a failed grenade testing at the Jungle Warfare College, Chhattisgarh. Martyr amongst his team, and hero in the squad, Chaudhary always took the fall for his team, keeping them out of sight and harm, he’s diffused 256 bombs alone.

[Aditya G]

Picture from Samba encounter - Sep 2013

AFAIK the first time since our tanks fired in anger after Op Pawan. Not sure about Somalia.

[Aditya G]

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/meerut/R ... picks=true

He added, "There is talk among ministers that the central government is planning a major internal security-related military operation in Jammu and Kashmir. Once the operation is successful, they will hail Rajnath Singh as a hero in the media.

[abhishek_sharma]

The many shades of violence

[vaibhav.n]

4 militants, soldier killed in Kupwara gun fight

This is the second infiltration bid foiled by the Army in Kupwara district since Tuesday. A militant and a soldier were killed in neighbouring Machil sector in a gunfight when the Army intercepted a group of militants at Katwara forest area in the sector. Four soldiers were also injured in the Machil gunfight. The search operation in the Machil sector is still continuing to track the militants.

The slain soldier has been identified as Lance Havildar Prem Bahadur Reshmi.

Lance Hav Reshmi- 1 GR

[Surya]

thanks vaibhav

[Kashi]

Major infiltration bid foiled by Indian Army; five militants gunned down in Kashmir - Know what happened

Srinagar: Five militants were killed as the army on Monday foiled a major infiltration bid along the Line of Control (LoC) in Uri sector of Kashmir.

"Alert troops noticed some suspicious movement along the Line of Control in Uri Sector in north Kashmir's Baramulla district this morning and challenged the intruders," an army official said.

He said the intruders opened firing towards the army positions which was retaliated by the soldiers.

"Two militants were killed in the initial exchange of firing while three others were killed late in the day," the official said.

He said search operations were continuing in the area till reports came in.

He said arms, ammunition and war-like stores were recovered from scene of the gunbattle.

This is the fourth infiltration bid foiled by the army along the LoC in Kashmir in the past three weeks, killing 12 militants.

[Aditya G]

Up. Please discuss Baramullah attack and other routine counter terror ops here.

[Shameek]

Attack on Army camp in Baramulla - Link

The 46 Rashtriya Rifles army camp in Kashmir’s Baramulla district was attacked by heavily armed militants on Sunday. The camp is located in Janbazpora on the outskirts of Baramulla city, 54 km from capital Srinagar. The attack began at 10.30pm, when the assailants tried to enter through a public park near the camp, but were stopped. They then took positions on the banks of the Jhelum river, the Baramulla police control room said.

[Karthik S]

Guys if these terrorists had penetrated, we could have had similar situation like Uri. Hence we should consider this with same seriousness as Uri. Just that fortunately, we don't have Uri like casualty.

[williams]

It is just not possible to stop infiltration 100%. As some one said, the only thing that changes post Uri and post Indian public retaliation is that India does not hesitate to cross LOC to stop these terrorists if necessary. And if elements of uniformed terrorist come to aid of non state actors, both will be in the receiving end.

[Aditya G]

Shiv Aroor ✔ @ShivAroor

Clear Uri-style fidayeen attack. Reports of injuries, developing situation. Await official updates. Attack anticipated by post-Strike intel.
7:16 PM - 2 Oct 2016

[shiv]

Baramulla terror attack early this morning. Let me put some questions to people who doubted if a surgical strike took place
1. Why is GoI admitting that Pakis attacked this AM?
2. What is the proof that an attack took place
3. The TV images I see could be totally cooked up stories from old footage

If someone wants to take a shot at these questions, it may be possible to work our way back to the topic of whether video evidence of a surgical strike is necessary of whether the strike took place at all.

[Singha]

4 rats are nearby or spotted.

GAURAV C SAWANT ‏@gauravcsawant 6h6 hours ago
2 terrorists killed. 1-2 more contained in one location. No firing at this time. Int alert of 4 more rats waiting to strike. Neutralise asap

[Bheeshma]

Why can't the cornered rats be eliminated by mortar or grenades? Or get a Dhruv and shred them , its not like they have to be buried properly.

[Singha]

^^ to minimize damage to our own camp , where they have gone to ground. selectively I think BMP/Tanks are used for precision fire as was done in pathankot once they are narrowed down. BMP cannon will cut through cement and brick walls quite easily. carl gustafs and shipons are also used. they are also used a shields for groups of soldiers to advance safely behind.


Jammu: Two persons, one from Astilla in Pakistan and another from PoK, were arrested by the security forces in Jammu and Kashmir.
During routine patrolling on the border area, security forces arrested a 32-year-old man moving under suspicious circumstances near the International border in Agrechak belt of RS Pura sector in Jammu district last evening, official sources said.
He was identified as Abu Bakar, son of Amin Hamza and resident of Astilla in Pakistan, they said, adding after brief questioning, he was handed over to police.
Army along with police have apprehended a 41-year-old PoK resident in Saujian Sector of Poonch last evening, an Army officer said.
He was identified as Mohd Rashid Khan, son of Mohd Yakub Khan and resident of Tedabund of Haveli Tehsil in Bagh district of Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir, he said.
He is being questioned and investigations are on, the official said.
Three people were held in last one week. On September 24, a Pakistani national and an alleged activist of Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Taiba (LeT) terror outfit, was arrested by BSF from near International Border in Jammu.

[Sid]

^^^adding more fire support will call for countermeasures from these porkies. They may introduce ATGM or AA guns like Dushka to the list.

Given time any defense can be beaten, but a defense can soften the impact of an assault.

Everytime such thing happens just blast the closest border post as appropriate response.

[Gyan]

I think we need to bring back 106mm RCL for CI / COIN use as its short range and heavy warhead would be helpful against cover used by terrorists to fire at Indian Security forces. In main stream military 106 RCL has been superseded by Milan ATGM but for COIN, CI etc it remains an important instrument. I believe even USA, UK are back to using it in Afghanistan & Iraq. I think we need to relook at 106 RCL and even HMGs mounted Thermal imagers and laser range fighters for COIN.

[Singha]

we only have to look at syria and africa for the utility of these rugged COTS solns like toyota , ford , gm and mitsubishi trucks mounted with a mix of HMG, 23-2 cannons, small MLRS pods, 106mm guns...


in blackhawk down, eric bana loads one of these and blows apart a technical ... fairly cheap and rugged weapon it seems...well proven everywhere...and far more agile than a tank.

[Singha]

same for DJI phantom drones - every company needs a few. to hell with 10 yr trials and global RFPs, just buy them off aliexpress or amazon.

at present marriage and event photographers in india have better drone tech 24x7 than those tasked to defend against these serpents.

again drones feeding video back to cots tablets widely adopted by both parties in syria ...

another difference noted is powerful 250cc dirt bikes that can climb up goat tracks and deep mud vs our ponderous enfield bullets. widely used by saa in latakia.

[vina]

we only have to look at syria and africa for the utility of these rugged COTS solns like toyota , ford , gm and mitsubishi trucks mounted with a mix of HMG, 23-2 cannons, small MLRS pods, 106mm guns...
.

The IA used jeep mounted 106mm RCLs to knock out Pakistani tanks in 1965 and 1971. The jeeps were meant for that sort of thing. In fact, as a kid growing up in Bangalore Cantt. area, jeep mounted RCLs were a regular sight in the area. But I guess in this day and age, they are obsolete and can be taken out from beyond range of their guns by RPGs.

[Gyan]

ATGMS are perhaps a hundred times better in conventional warfare when faced with enemy tanks, AFVs etc but for COIN and even LoC skirmishes they are not only an overkill but also unaffordable. ATGM round costs US$ 10,000 to 200,000 depending upon type while RCL General round costs US$ 100-1000 ie hundred times cheaper. Therefore we can pull out RCLs from reserve, mount NVDs + laser range finders on them and make them general issue items.

[Singha]

>> can be taken out from beyond range of their guns by RPGs.

I doubt that. the RPGs have a range of few 100m meters only, some as low as 200m. this thing should be able to hit something even 2km away albeit at much lower velocity than a tank cannon.

[Manish_P]

South Korea and the US are also adding a more evolved rugged and armored (hence heavier) versions of light to medium truck mounted artillery

1) Samsung Techwin EVO 105 with the US 105mm



and the even more compact

2) US Sherpa Hawkeye from Mack Defence using the US 105 mm



Not sure how much useful they will be in the hilly terrains but they should be useful across flatter terrain

[jamwal]

There was a 105mm mounted truck didplayed in Defence expo sometime back. Everyone here laugghed at it. Now people are posting tfta systems and demanding tha they be inducted in Indian amrmy ?

[shiv]

I think we need to bring back 106mm RCL for CI / COIN use as its short range and heavy warhead would be helpful against cover used by terrorists to fire at Indian Security forces. In main stream military 106 RCL has been superseded by Milan ATGM but for COIN, CI etc it remains an important instrument. I believe even USA, UK are back to using it in Afghanistan & Iraq. I think we need to relook at 106 RCL and even HMGs mounted Thermal imagers and laser range fighters for COIN.

Why? Where have they gone. AFAIK They are still in service, I have seen them on display in the last 10 years and the ammunition on display (Aero India) in the last 6-8 years

[Yagnasri]

Did not report say that we used Carl Gustav systems in POK operations last week? Maybe it is the answer and we are already using it.

[ks_sachin]

Did not report say that we used Carl Gustav systems in POK operations last week? Maybe it is the answer and we are already using it.

RCL is no longer AFAIK.
Carl Gustav is different..

[Aditya G]

106 mm RCL is decommissioned.

There is no use case in hilly loc terrain where there may not be roads or direct line of sight.

[Gyan]

In fact due to slightly curved trajectory 106mm RCL makes better sense in Hills in COIN. Anyway read on to:-

https://www.wired.com/2013/05/ancient-u ... -in-syria/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_recoilless_rifle
http://www.weaponsindia.com/rclgun.htm
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wlc/2.htm

Carl Gustaf is also a manportable RCL but has much shorter ranger and a smaller warhead. Also as it not tripod mounted, therefore inherently less stable/accurate. Therefore I recommend Tripod and jeep mounted 106mm RCL protected by ballistic shields modernized with FCS, thermal imagers, laser ranging etc should be brought back for COIN work in jungles, urban areas & mountains.

[Manish_P]

jeep mounted RCLs were a regular sight in the area. But I guess in this day and age, they are obsolete and can be taken out from beyond range of their guns by RPGs.

@Vina sir - Yes.. perhaps against the latest generation of MBTs.
But IMVHO they might still be useful against the older generation MBTs, the APC/IFCVs, trucks, bunkers etc in LOS conditions at short ranges

For longer ranges (typically around 5km to 10 Km) the nimbler-than-MBTs-or-SPGs truck-borne types like the Samsung EVO 105, the US Hawkeye 105 etc have their own advantages and uses

@jamwal sahab - Was there such a Indian product displayed. I seem to have missed it. Would love to see some link to it, if possible. I never ever laugh at any weapon upwards of a stick, especially if i am not the one wielding it

[shiv]

It's certainly not man portable but OFB still lists 106 mm RCL among its products
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wlc/2.htm

Its range is listed as 3 km - that is 3 times more than the man portable Carl Gustav. Like the L70 - I believe the 106 mm RCL still has niche uses in the army.

[Manish_P]

@Jamwal Sir - Is this the one you were referring to ?

The 105 ultra-light gun-GARUDA by Bharat Forge



Here they have mounted it on a US HUMVEE



And no, i am not asking for importing the TFTA HUMVEEs

A modified variant of the TATA LSV perhaps



But perhaps all this is bordering on the regular artillery domain...

[Gyan]

105mm howitzers are very powerful equipment and cannot be issued down to Company level. I am trying to float the idea that quick reaction teams and bases down till company level should be protected by 106mm RCLs

[jamwal]

No "sir" please. This truck mounted 105 mm as well as one on a BMP chassis as well as one other system by some PSU. Admittedly they were prototypes and more like a proof of concept systems at the time, but the idea was interesting.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2669.JPG

Specs:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2670.JPG

More pictures from that expo

Images are not visible for some reason when using the tag, so posting links onlee.

[deejay]

105mm howitzers are very powerful equipment and cannot be issued down to Company level. I am trying to float the idea that quick reaction teams and bases down till company level should be protected by 106mm RCLs

I think, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and similar wars are forcing armies the world over to rethink on the approach to a battlefield scenario. More often, these wars have seen organised forces face off myriad splinter groups with small ambush teams or fighting groups which tend to re-spawn very quickly. The enemy is not highly trained and neither is it concentrated for a single brutal attack to dismember the enemy.

Costly missile attacks do liquidate the fighters but that does not finish the war. Afghanistan and now Syria have shown the longevity of conflict and inability of superior weapons in finishing the war. Afghanistan has shown that war could go on for eternity at little cost to Taliban (or PA) in terms of money and a very heavy cost to US.

This forces the organised army to look at ways to reduce costs to sustain a long term war and still be able to engage the enemy before they reach close quarters.

A lot of weapons of WW2 vintage which were being discarded are and will make reappearances across the world. The RCL, 02/04 barrel - SUV mounted MBRLS, truck mounted arty guns in their various forms are all likely option.

I do not see IA, standardise on a single type. In different geographies, even IA will look at these older solutions in newer packaging plus whatever easy technology that can be added.

I am not sure how nimble are the IA and other decision makers who are responsible for such procurement so it may take time but IMO, it will happen.