CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby chetonzz » 29 Jun 2020 15:12

Kashmir can be never terror free till the philosophy that breeds terror is "sanitized" (Chinese way in Xinxiang)OR demographic change(Chinese way in Tibet)!

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby mody » 29 Jun 2020 20:13

That's obvious. The hearts and mind thing has to be done.

Punjab is a shining example of terrorism dieing out with local support withering away. That's the only possiblity. If local support exists then the terrorism will continue.

However, if the activities reduce, it allows for the local population to experience life that's a little closer to normal.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby mody » 30 Jun 2020 17:57


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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Jun 2020 20:06

mody wrote:Punjab is a shining example of terrorism dieing out with local support withering away. That's the only possiblity. If local support exists then the terrorism will continue


Punjab is different. Sikhs were always loyal to India and their religion is Dharmic, unlike Islam. Any Muslim majority region in India is indistinguishable from Pakistan. Has to be dealt with differently.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Jun 2020 20:07



Great! It means that we are already successful in fighting a 2-front war. If we do a Balakot-part-2 in parallel, we'll truly be fighting a 2.5 front war

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 30 Jun 2020 20:15

Prem Kumar wrote:
mody wrote:Punjab is a shining example of terrorism dieing out with local support withering away. That's the only possiblity. If local support exists then the terrorism will continue


Punjab is different. Sikhs were always loyal to India and their religion is Dharmic, unlike Islam. Any Muslim majority region in India is indistinguishable from Pakistan. Has to be dealt with differently.

Premji
Small correction Sikhs are Indians. :eek:
Remember hindus families willingly brought one of their male offsprings as a Sikh.
Remember what happened after the third battle of panipat: many of the Maratha girls/women/kids assimilated into the Sikh pant to protect them.
we forget what the babbar khalsa preaches!! :shock:

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 01 Jul 2020 11:09

I understand your point. I was making a distinction between people who consider India their Punya-Bhoomi and people who don't. Sikhs (alongwith Hindus, Jains etc) fall into the former category. Muslims fall into the latter category because Islam demands loyalty only to the Ummah

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 07 Jul 2020 02:03


Very very important interview, please watch.
My pranams to the Chinar Corps, J&K Police, CRPF, IB etc for their relentless approach for establishing peace in Kashmir.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby mody » 18 Jul 2020 14:33

Operation cleanup continues in full swing. 6 eliminated in 2 days. Almost 150 accounted for this year. With infiltration also under check, next year the the situation on the ground can show some real improvement. As noted previously, the large number of successful operations from April till date also shows much better ground level intelligence for the forces. Crucially also in the south kashmir region. HM has bore the brunt of the cleanup and now it seems the remaining LeT and JeM pigs are being slaughtered.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ja ... d=msedgdhp

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 31 Aug 2020 10:38

Cleanup continues. 3 JeM pigs & 3 LeT pigs halale'ed in last 2 days. Sadly, we lost a jawan and a sub-inspector in these operations

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Paul » 19 Nov 2020 17:34

https://twitter.com/kpnewschannel/statu ... 14464?s=20

Terrorists dispatched to meet their hoors

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sajaym » 20 Nov 2020 16:30

Some pics from the latest encounter. The kit and the tactics of the pigs was almost special forces-level.

1. M-4 carbine with starlight scope.
2. They used a rice-bag barricaded truck almost like an MPV -- inspite of the multiple 40mm grenade attacks on the truck and the subsequent fire, look at the state of the bodies...not charred!
3. See the pig closest to the camera and the spec ops soldier standing at extreme right towards the truck -- the jacket, cargo vest and boots are almost similar.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Nov 2020 17:03

One wonders whether the terrorists crossed the Border lightly while some of the Ammo and explosives were brought in via tunnels or UAV, while the pigs died the Truck driver is still at large, he can give more details to find out more about the entire supply chain.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 20 Nov 2020 17:29

Terrorists don't have bullet proof jackets. Also the M-4 could be Darra made. There was one confiscated few months back which looked pretty close to original. They're armed by Paki military which was being financed by Americans not too long back. These terrorists were supposed to disrupt local elections in Jammu region where they'll have very limited local support. So it's not surprising that they'd be well armed and supplied.
Last edited by jamwal on 20 Nov 2020 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Nov 2020 17:47

Even Maulana Massod Azhar Nephew was executed doing sniper duties with a M-4 in the kashmir Valley

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/jaish-chief-masood-azhars-nephew-killed-in-encounter-in-kashmirs-tral/319331

The security forces also recovered M-4 Carbine rifle from the encounter site which was used by the group to carry out sniper attacks on security forces, they said.


Wonder why they prefer a carbine to act as a sniper rifle? Goes well Starlight scope for night attacks?

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 20 Nov 2020 20:57

Here the 'Sniper' word is a misnomer, typically used by the media.

The pigs don't really do any actual long range sniping missions in the pure military sense. It's just stealthy ambush firing from a distance and the optics are required as their marksmanship is not of extremely high caliber. Also these guys move from hideout to hideout, oftentimes in urban/semi-urban settings, and a shorter (and lighter) carbine is preferred over a dedicated long range 'sniper' rifle. Easier to conceal, easier to cart around and also more useful to put down volume of fire when they get encountered by our military forces.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby vikassh » 26 Nov 2020 16:56

Nagrota terrorists used tunnel to cross over to India. I think those who got killed were highly motivated and very well trained considering their endurance to sustain in those claustrophobic tunnels.




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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby schinnas » 26 Nov 2020 17:01

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... IDepK.html

Two jawans KIA and attained veergati in an ambush by terrorists in Srinagar. 3 Terrorists escaped in a car and a cardon and search is on to nab them. This may be JeM work to mark 26/11 anniversary.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby tandav » 26 Nov 2020 21:24

schinnas wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/nov-26-jk/story-pxBuxz1KvUYNSKPMzIDepK.html

Two jawans KIA and attained veergati in an ambush by terrorists in Srinagar. 3 Terrorists escaped in a car and a cardon and search is on to nab them. This may be JeM work to mark 26/11 anniversary.


Significant local support to the Terrorists is apparent. To be able to kill soldiers in a crowded place and escape implies others in the crowd must have acted to protect the terrorists and prevent immediate retaliation by stone throwing and mobbing security forces. Inspite of such tactics no bystanders were affected which only means that IA SOP would not fire on crowds considered Indian citizens even if some of them were helping the terrorists escape. Extremely difficult circumstances for IA to operate.

Om Shanti to the valiant and shakti to their family, we will never forget their sacrifice to protect all of us. May you be reborn among us again.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 26 Nov 2020 22:15

schinnas wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/nov-26-jk/story-pxBuxz1KvUYNSKPMzIDepK.html

Two jawans KIA and attained veergati in an ambush by terrorists in Srinagar. 3 Terrorists escaped in a car and a cardon and search is on to nab them. This may be JeM work to mark 26/11 anniversary.


This is disgusting. Pakistan is keeping the threshold of casualties low because it knows that large attacks will attract major retaliation.

We absolutely have to take this to the next level. Be it targeting a brigade hq or a hvt in a stand off strike. Maybe even explore naval option. The threshold must be lowered.

Till when will we keep doing om shanti

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Nov 2020 18:09

Couldn't agree more.

While Modi sarkar has certainly raised the stakes with surgical strikes, pro-active targeting of launchpads & disproportionate response to CFVs, we are still losing our braves for cockroaches in return.

A lot of high-level afsars & other HVTs must be taken out - consistently and pro-actively. I hope we aren't refraining from this step, for fear of retaliation at the same level, which is bound to happen. {{Well actually, we are already incurring losses at those levels, every time we lose say Colonels in COIN operations}}

We still don't control the escalation ladder, by being reactive.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 28 Nov 2020 01:56

Prem Kumar wrote:...A lot of high-level afsars & other HVTs must be taken out - consistently and pro-actively.....


How do we establish this task? What capabilities do we require?

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby fanne » 28 Nov 2020 09:24

I guess you guys do not follow the 'right' news. The ones that give out OSINT. It is war and the causalities are almost one sided. If you cannot guess which side is loosing, the joke is on you.

Having said that, Biden win has certainly embolden the napakis and added more 'eagerness' to their effort. You have to see farmer's agitation and the likes from that angle.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 28 Nov 2020 23:17

Prem Kumar wrote:Couldn't agree more.

While Modi sarkar has certainly raised the stakes with surgical strikes, pro-active targeting of launchpads & disproportionate response to CFVs, we are still losing our braves for cockroaches in return.

A lot of high-level afsars & other HVTs must be taken out - consistently and pro-actively. I hope we aren't refraining from this step, for fear of retaliation at the same level, which is bound to happen. {{Well actually, we are already incurring losses at those levels, every time we lose say Colonels in COIN operations}}

We still don't control the escalation ladder, by being reactive.


Disproportionate response to CFVs ?

Sorry to burst the bubble but our response has been just equal. Moral Ascendancy is only on paper. Reports on our response to CFVs are exaggerated. Please don't calibrate your assessment with what you see on SM.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Nov 2020 08:01

This is probably true, we have not hit the Pakis hard enough. Quite frankly if we are prepared to escalate we must have the ability to go all the way up the ladder.

But clearly we have to improve our capabilities to hit and dominate Pakistan, the importance of it being a no contest war and preparation for it is totally lost on Indians. It is also easy for us to talk those who do not have relatives near the Paki border.

This is where we need to have planned operation, where we must be able to totally neutralize Paki assets to an extent and thier of skilled manpower, equipment and infrastructure increase so much that they are willing to have temporary ceasefires. We must mate our surveillance capabilities and offensive capabilities to an extent we must be able to take out Paki Army convoys accurately without notice, key bridges, communication, electricity etc. Paki trucks artillery, landed planes, helicopters, key electricity transmission equipment, jeeps with tow missile carriers etc. Pakis need to import everything, let them replace Japanese Hino trucks with less reliable Chinese ones, loose abundant artillery and ammo motors....

Hit them at the time and place of our choosing, not waiting for them to attack and then respond.

We must also encourage Pakis to move away from education to more say slaughter houses with child labor. The guys storing servcing and firing Paki equipment and artillery must be more madrassa educated leading to stored ammo and fuel explosions, barrel bursts and poor understanding of artillery tables. No need for any discipline or hard work as they use thier hard work.only to attack India.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 29 Nov 2020 15:52

Aditya_V wrote:This is probably true, we have not hit the Pakis hard enough. Quite frankly if we are prepared to escalate we must have the ability to go all the way up the ladder.

But clearly we have to improve our capabilities to hit and dominate Pakistan, the importance of it being a no contest war and preparation for it is totally lost on Indians. It is also easy for us to talk those who do not have relatives near the Paki border.

This is where we need to have planned operation, where we must be able to totally neutralize Paki assets to an extent and thier of skilled manpower, equipment and infrastructure increase so much that they are willing to have temporary ceasefires. We must mate our surveillance capabilities and offensive capabilities to an extent we must be able to take out Paki Army convoys accurately without notice, key bridges, communication, electricity etc. Paki trucks artillery, landed planes, helicopters, key electricity transmission equipment, jeeps with tow missile carriers etc. Pakis need to import everything, let them replace Japanese Hino trucks with less reliable Chinese ones, loose abundant artillery and ammo motors....

Hit them at the time and place of our choosing, not waiting for them to attack and then respond.

We must also encourage Pakis to move away from education to more say slaughter houses with child labor. The guys storing servcing and firing Paki equipment and artillery must be more madrassa educated leading to stored ammo and fuel explosions, barrel bursts and poor understanding of artillery tables. No need for any discipline or hard work as they use thier hard work.only to attack India.


Our capability exists and Pakistani capabilities are no match. We are told this in briefings. But when push comes to shove extreme caution takes over especially with infantry Generals who have spent their entire life in CI. Sometimes I feel that maybe entire Northern Command should be handed over to Armoured Corps, Arty and Engrs Generals.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Nov 2020 18:18

Thank you for this input.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 29 Nov 2020 22:03

Vidur wrote:... Sometimes I feel that maybe entire Northern Command should be handed over to Armoured Corps, Arty and Engrs Generals.


Alternately considering the growing threats on multiple fronts, we should, IMVHO, consider raising/increasing of separate division/s purely for COIN and CT. The senior officers and commanders of such divisions would be specialists in such operations (we have decades old extensive experience now), and they in turn could be the mentors/trainers for the future batches at the academy level itself (where COIN/CT would be separate disciplines).

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Nov 2020 01:35

Manish_P wrote:
Vidur wrote:... Sometimes I feel that maybe entire Northern Command should be handed over to Armoured Corps, Arty and Engrs Generals.


Alternately considering the growing threats on multiple fronts, we should, IMVHO, consider raising/increasing of separate division/s purely for COIN and CT. The senior officers and commanders of such divisions would be specialists in such operations (we have decades old extensive experience now), and they in turn could be the mentors/trainers for the future batches at the academy level itself (where COIN/CT would be separate disciplines).

The RR forces do just that.
The basis of any engagement whether CT or regular stems from a strong basic of infantry combat tactics and training.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Nov 2020 01:37

Vidur wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:This is probably true, we have not hit the Pakis hard enough. Quite frankly if we are prepared to escalate we must have the ability to go all the way up the ladder.

But clearly we have to improve our capabilities to hit and dominate Pakistan, the importance of it being a no contest war and preparation for it is totally lost on Indians. It is also easy for us to talk those who do not have relatives near the Paki border.

This is where we need to have planned operation, where we must be able to totally neutralize Paki assets to an extent and thier of skilled manpower, equipment and infrastructure increase so much that they are willing to have temporary ceasefires. We must mate our surveillance capabilities and offensive capabilities to an extent we must be able to take out Paki Army convoys accurately without notice, key bridges, communication, electricity etc. Paki trucks artillery, landed planes, helicopters, key electricity transmission equipment, jeeps with tow missile carriers etc. Pakis need to import everything, let them replace Japanese Hino trucks with less reliable Chinese ones, loose abundant artillery and ammo motors....

Hit them at the time and place of our choosing, not waiting for them to attack and then respond.

We must also encourage Pakis to move away from education to more say slaughter houses with child labor. The guys storing servcing and firing Paki equipment and artillery must be more madrassa educated leading to stored ammo and fuel explosions, barrel bursts and poor understanding of artillery tables. No need for any discipline or hard work as they use thier hard work.only to attack India.


Our capability exists and Pakistani capabilities are no match. We are told this in briefings. But when push comes to shove extreme caution takes over especially with infantry Generals who have spent their entire life in CI. Sometimes I feel that maybe entire Northern Command should be handed over to Armoured Corps, Arty and Engrs Generals.

But that is also a function of a risk averse culture where mavericks are not looked well upon.
Go to College of Combat and check how well the different thinkers in the junior ranks are graded...

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 30 Nov 2020 11:05

jamwal wrote:Terrorists don't have bullet proof jackets. Also the M-4 could be Darra made. There was one confiscated few months back which looked pretty close to original. They're armed by Paki military which was being financed by Americans not too long back. These terrorists were supposed to disrupt local elections in Jammu region where they'll have very limited local support. So it's not surprising that they'd be well armed and supplied.

The m-4 could have been acquired by them after killing off the american soldier carrying them, like how they acquired hummers.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 30 Nov 2020 15:10

ks_sachin wrote:The RR forces do just that.
The basis of any engagement whether CT or regular stems from a strong basic of infantry combat tactics and training.


Yes, sir. Aware of that.

I think it is better to have a separate branch/discipline specializing on COIN and CT (both urban and other environments), right from the jawan level to the highest CO (Generals) level while keeping the rest strongly focused (training, strategy,...) on the external offensives (including holding of captured territory) in addition to the own border defense.

I tend to agree with Vidur ji that a different mindset (at the top) is required for different type of objectives.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 30 Nov 2020 16:27

That is why RR was created and they are doing a great job. The main problem is in how the commanders mindset develops due to experience and environment of CI/CT operations. In CI Operations senior commanders and even Ministry and PMO may interfere/monitor/keep close check. If something 'goes wrong' the entire hierarchy may descend on the CO asking for updates, giving advice. And media too. Human Rights, jail, all can be threats. That naturally engenders risk averseness. In addition the constraints on operational freedom, extreme aversion to 'collateral damage' play a big role in moulding a risk aversion and defensiveness in senior commanders minds.

Thats why apart from the CI Forces and RR sectors, other formations of Northern Command and the Command itself must be commanded by Armour, Arty, Engrs officers who will not have this mindset. And Infantry officers can command Western, SW and SC. Will have a lot of organizational benefits including opening up Infantry commander's minds. Inter arm rivalry will also reduce. Cross arm fertilisation is first step to cross service fertisaltion and jointness. Lanyard parochialism is very strong in army. Its useful till Brigadeir level but becomes a serious detriment above that.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cyrano » 30 Nov 2020 16:37

Makes a lot of sense Vidur ji. CI and battlefield are very different environments, what is good for one doesnt translate the same way to the other.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Nov 2020 19:47

Vidur wrote:That is why RR was created and they are doing a great job. The main problem is in how the commanders mindset develops due to experience and environment of CI/CT operations. In CI Operations senior commanders and even Ministry and PMO may interfere/monitor/keep close check. If something 'goes wrong' the entire hierarchy may descend on the CO asking for updates, giving advice. And media too. Human Rights, jail, all can be threats. That naturally engenders risk averseness. In addition the constraints on operational freedom, extreme aversion to 'collateral damage' play a big role in moulding a risk aversion and defensiveness in senior commanders minds.

Thats why apart from the CI Forces and RR sectors, other formations of Northern Command and the Command itself must be commanded by Armour, Arty, Engrs officers who will not have this mindset. And Infantry officers can command Western, SW and SC. Will have a lot of organizational benefits including opening up Infantry commander's minds. Inter arm rivalry will also reduce. Cross arm fertilisation is first step to cross service fertisaltion and jointness. Lanyard parochialism is very strong in army. Its useful till Brigadeir level but becomes a serious detriment above that.


Are you saying must be commanded as in Inf offers not allowed to command NC?
NC has had GOCs from Armd / Arty.

While you make a good point and while CI ops may contribute to the defensive mindset it’s not the whole story.

By the RR also has Other arms on deputation and Armd / Arty offers can also command the RR sector forces if not mistaken. An RR tenure is seen as a must have for advancement.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 30 Nov 2020 21:00

Manish_P wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:The RR forces do just that.
The basis of any engagement whether CT or regular stems from a strong basic of infantry combat tactics and training.


Yes, sir. Aware of that.

I think it is better to have a separate branch/discipline specializing on COIN and CT (both urban and other environments), right from the jawan level to the highest CO (Generals) level while keeping the rest strongly focused (training, strategy,...) on the external offensives (including holding of captured territory) in addition to the own border defense.

I tend to agree with Vidur ji that a different mindset (at the top) is required for different type of objectives.


After CRPF, J&K Police and Rashtriya Rifles, you still need another branch to deal with COIN and CT ? Well only God can save you then.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 30 Nov 2020 21:48

darshhan wrote:After CRPF, J&K Police and Rashtriya Rifles, you still need another branch to deal with COIN and CT?


Not another branch per se, Darshan Sa'ab. Perhaps i worded it wrong. I meant the command, training, SOPs would be separate specialist disciplines (with some levels of inter-operability for sure). But for frontline operations the command, troops, SOPs would be different. Vidur ji has described it much more elaborately and very succinctly in his thought provoking post.

Vidur wrote:...That is why RR was created and they are doing a great job. The main problem is in how the commanders mindset develops due to experience and environment of CI/CT operations. In CI Operations senior commanders and even Ministry and PMO may interfere/monitor/keep close check. If something 'goes wrong' the entire hierarchy may descend on the CO asking for updates, giving advice. And media too. Human Rights, jail, all can be threats. That naturally engenders risk averseness. In addition the constraints on operational freedom, extreme aversion to 'collateral damage' play a big role in moulding a risk aversion and defensiveness in senior commanders minds....


darshhan wrote:Well only God can save you then.


Well the indian forces have saved us for a long time now haven't they.. a lot of their success is because they have adapted to the changing threat environment. Internal terrorism/militancy was not the primary threat in the 60s-70s. The RR got formed accordingly in the late 80s-early 90s to tackle that threat when it became huge and the powers that be realized that it would require different sort of tactics, training, SOPs etc. Another example - the DCA (Defence Cyber Agency) being formed in 2018 to address the cyber threat which has become quite huge.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Dec 2020 06:07

CI / CT should not be the role of the Army.

There is a detailed article on the formation of the RR and the reasons for the same. One big reason for the RR was that CI deployment for regular inf played havoc with our troop rotation. Also, the Army did not want to be actively seen to be involved in CI/CT - hence RR us under the Home Ministry.

Creating a dedicated cadre of troops and officers for CI / CT ops means a cadre that is ill-equipped for anything else.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 01 Dec 2020 06:37

RR is under MoD control.

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Re: CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Dec 2020 09:07

nachiket wrote:RR is under MoD control.

AGree but supposed be funded by Home..


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