MRCA News and Discussion

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Avid
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Avid » 26 Feb 2010 18:06

nitinm wrote:
NRao wrote:For a fellow who has been here for just a few days he seems to have picked up BR tendencies pretty fast!!!

Sorry for being rude.


I am a quick learner! :wink:

Others I choose to ignore for their shear lack of imagination and incompetence! :P


Definitely not a quick learner. If you were, you would have already known that this forum has plenty of great minds who are subject experts.

As for your Ph.D. -- I have one, and so do many others. Specifically having a Ph.D. in Technology Strategy? Seriously, you ought to give some thought before claiming superiority based on the label of your Ph.D. If indeed the label makes you "special", fact that there are only 50 Ph.D. globally in "Technology Strategy" implies that universities have not seen any value in training a Ph.D. in such a narrow discipline; or the label is a marketing gimmick.

By the way, a mechanical engineer on the shop floor of TELCO is no superior in knowledge of any specific stage/component than the men without degrees who work that segment day in and day out.

Come back after you have completed your dissertation before claiming any superiority. You have only been admitted and not granted a Ph.D.

On the side, when doing a Ph.D. we had a saying:

B.S. -- Bull $h!t
M.S. -- More $h!t
Ph.D. -- Pile High and Deep

(You clearly are piling is very high and deep. Caution: Kind of hard to breath or come out of a pile of dung)

As they say, you can give a man some knowledge, but you cannot give him wisdom

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 26 Feb 2010 21:24

nitinm, Please report ASAP to Kave Kamplex #420 (BENIS thread in Strategic forum) for vigorous re-education. We have many PhDs there in our LMU faculty, all led by that famous iScholar Lalmullah. Salaam!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 26 Feb 2010 21:28

Piling on the derailed wagons carrying horse buggy:

First a couple of Dileep's Fables:

1: Old man to neighbor: "If you get a cold or something, munna here will give you medicine. He just wrote medical entrance onlee"

2: Poor village man goes to town. He got an urgent call from mother nature on line one, so he answered it, facing a wall. A cop on the beat saw it, approached him, and gave him an earful.

The man laughed.

The cop blew off the lid and demanded the reason why he laughed. The man said. "This much for just pee! You would have eaten if I pooped!" (For mallu readers: മുള്ളീട്ട് ഇത്രേം. അപ്പോ തൂറിയേര്‍ന്നെങ്കി തമ്പ്രാന്‍ തിന്നേനേല്ലോ!!”

Come on, Folks! Of course there are a couple of Pee Yech Dees on BRF, but those are in mundane fields like Aeronautics, Nookilar Fyzzics, Propulsion etc. As far as I know, and naturally I know a lot, being from the gods own country (better that, you morons!), there are no Pee Yech Dee in Technology Strategy here. In fact there are no Technology strategy Pee Yech Dees on any web forum. BRF should thank His Nitin ness for granting that distinction to BRF. You thankless lot!!

I saw some reference to some enqyoob or shinqyoob! Who is he? Does he have a Pee Yech Dee? Maybe he does, who knows! But I am suar it would be in some trifling subject like Aeronautics or jet propulsion. I am sure it will not be in Technology Strategy. Too bad he left BRF. It would have been fun His Nitin ness throwing him belly up on the floor! Who is afraid of enqyoob (തമ്മനം ഷാജിയെ ആര്‍ക്കാണ് പേടി?)

If the stoopid yooniverjity had accepted my thissis on "Urinating habits of jonakas" (ചോണനുറുമ്പുകളുടെ മൂത്രപരമായ ശീലങ്ങള്‍) I too would have been a pee yech dee! :cry:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 26 Feb 2010 21:31

Avid said

Come back after you have completed your dissertation before claiming any superiority. You have only been admitted and not granted a Ph.D.


Err shouldn't that be

Come back after you have completed your dissertation and found a job in industry. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 26 Feb 2010 21:44

Congratulations to one and all!
We have successfully changed the MRCA thread to "pee ich dee & piskology Dhagha" !

Raja Bose
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 26 Feb 2010 21:51

KrishG wrote:Congratulations to one and all!
We have successfully changed the MRCA thread to "pee ich dee & piskology Dhagha" !


You mean finally this thread has a well-defined purpose :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 26 Feb 2010 22:12

nitinm wrote: For people who see PhDs everywhere, I would like you to show me one Technology Strategist in India for there are only ~50 in the world!


Did you know that there are less than 50 AIDS infected camels in the world? And none in India. Shows their utility I guess.. :oops:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 26 Feb 2010 22:35

sunnyv wrote:One thing i want to ask all gurus - IAF has been saying it wants to be network centric force. How can we do that without commanality????????.
We have Russian planes with GLONASS support others have GPS i assume [su have interoperability among each other but mig29 dont] ,
Mirage and Jags have GPS as per my knowledge.
I assume su cant relay data to M2k or Mig29 directly as two su can do to each other,
similarly AWACS is again non russian how each one integrate with each other and to our own satellites.
IS it possible that all data what MRCA's AESA will get on its screen will be delivered directly to our su30 screen also,i mean in flight directly

This part of integration lies with whom - IAF or company from whom we will purchase.
Also is it possible since su30 has open architecture will it fire A METEOR along with AA-12.

sunny, good question. I'm sorry I don't remember all the details but this is the gist.
in time all IAF/IN aircrafts will have Indian datalinks or at least DLs that are compatible with our networks. I'll get back to you with the details if I can remember/hunt them down.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 26 Feb 2010 23:28

I have a question - what is the advantage of the MRCA planes over the MKI? Can the MKI be fitted with AESA radar in the future if the IAF desires?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2010 00:07

Carl_T wrote:I have a question - what is the advantage of the MRCA planes over the MKI? Can the MKI be fitted with AESA radar in the future if the IAF desires?


Carl_T, all these things have been discussed to death earlier . You could go through the current Su-30MKI thread as well as the archives. Do the same with the MRCA thread as well and you'll come up to speed on what the MKI upgrade consists of and what the MRCA is meant to do.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunnyv » 27 Feb 2010 01:21

I had this news abt Indian air force changing its arsenal of MAGIC missiles to MBDA- ASRAAM instead of going to RAFAEL-PYTHON5 from ISRAEL as predicted by JANES & DN-
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4152656

and now this news
February 18, 2010: India plans to replace its Magic heat-seeking air-to-air missiles with the Asraam missile. Magic is a French developed, 89 kg (196 pound) missile with a max range of 11 kilometers. It was introduced in 1975, and underwent a major upgrade in the late 1980s. But Magic is considered past its prime.
Asraam entered service in 2002, mainly developed by Britain. It is an 88 kg (194 pound) missile with a range of 18 kilometers and a high capability heat seeker sensor system. The Asraam would replace Magic missiles now carried by a hundred Jaguar and fifty Mirage 2000 jet fighters.
To get the deal, Asraam manufacturer MBDA agreed to jointly develop, with India, a new generation air-to-air heat seeking missile.


I suppose this will be a another move that will tilt MRCA in favour of EUROPE.
Its better to have a common missile platform for our non-russian jets. If F16 or F18 were in mind i suppose ISRAEL would have been preferred for integration just like they did on their F16I

And KARTIK can you tell - Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read)
And if MRCA has open architecture can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA on MRCA

This might look stupid but i am a newbie - so do ignore any lack of knowledge.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nitinm » 27 Feb 2010 07:09

NRao wrote:nitinm,

Bhai jan, there are plenty of Ph. Ds on this forum right now.



Thanks, I for once was starting to believe I was the only moron here! :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2010 08:00

Starting to believe?

The time is fast approaching for you to do so!!

Even a cat has only nine lives.

Which way you want to go is up to you though. I would still suggest that you bring something to the table.

...........................

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 27 Feb 2010 08:39

nitinm wrote:Thanks, I for once was starting to believe I was the only moron here! :D

Did you really check or were you looking in the mirror.
Common man, nobody gives a flying fvck about your alma mater here......... don't be so dense. ;)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 27 Feb 2010 11:45

^^^Do you mean to insinuate (see! I too can use big words like TFTA PhD tech strategee wallahs!) that us Nukkad-wasis are good for nothing loafers, hain ji? :evil: :evil:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Feb 2010 13:44

okay, enough pinata games guys. give it a rest. (till next time :P )

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 28 Feb 2010 05:13

NRao wrote:
The time is fast approaching for you to do so!!

Which way you want to go is up to you though. I would still suggest that you bring something to the table.



NO! I am quite enjoying these posts and I suspect others are too.

Nitin M, keep it up. Although Nukkad would be a more appropriate thread.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 28 Feb 2010 23:03

Obama's office pitch to MMS office to raise FDI to 49% means quite a powerful force has started acting on this precious deal with "a model of a tolerant pluralistic society in the region..".

The heat is on...for Mr. Blake.
"And it is a country increasingly comfortable with working with the United States,"
India an "indispensable" nation - Obama.

..well, let us put it this way, I think most of us will agree to do this special purpose vehicle 49% up on the FDI for niche sectors, especially in Aerospace Engineering, engines and advanced radar & sensor systems.

Now, we can make this a qualifier.. adding a quality factor to the 49% stake. Only certain tech field may be allowed, for a certain period of time [say 20-30 years].

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Mar 2010 00:07

From an article in the Washington Post, cited by Ankit in the Multimedia thread:

India is also pushing the Obama administration to ease the acquisition of US weapons and technology. Already this year, a high-level US government group cleared the way for Lockheed and Boeing to offer India cutting-edge radar technology for fighter jets.


Has the Apg-79 uber version been cleared for the MRCA? This could make some difference. The US certainly has certain things going for it in this race: (I refer specifically to the F-18e/f although the same could apply to the solah to a certain degree)

1) Ability to supply quickly, in a timely fashion
2) Super duper electronics and gizmos
3) Aircraft that will be in service with the US for a good 20 years.
4) Decent upgrade path
5) Most important - a GOI that seems keen on US goods.

I think the russians have been mollified with the Pakfa, Su-30 and MIG-29K deals, so they seem to be quietening now. The French threw in the towel ages ago and have been sulking in their corner (the M2k deal, despite its cost may be a way to perk them up a bit). Saab has too little going for it. Only EADS and the Tiffy stand in the way, and seems like they are certainly gunning for it. The Tejas engine deal may make a difference.

In some ways an EF-2000 with even the Captor M might be a LOT of capability and could be fit into the budget. How good are these chaps in integrating a variety of weapons (Israeli/Indian/Russian)? The IAF it seems has already chosen the ASRAAM (Jags), what about the main BVR weapon and A2G munitions? How long before the Meteor comes into the picture or will it be the Astra until then?

Thing is, if the EADS chaps show willingness to integrate other systems ala Saab, we can have decent logistics/SCM instead of setting up something totally new as with the 18 or 16.

CM.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2010 01:10

Only an Indo-Israeli venture to build a right FCR can happily integrate with Israeli, Russian and Indian stores. The khans went ballistic even for Israel, when they wanted the Elta ones on the solahs. LM folks issued a therat warning of cancelling even the JSF deal if they did so.

It would be a sad day for India, if our politicians are to make us succumb to sheir khan doctrine. We can encourage a 49% hold, but we can't have the fourty niners to play doctrinal games, and power politics, when we are already knee deep with similar but a totally different set of power politics with khan's ice cold counterpart.

HAL/Indian % must be quite high to demand and supply to our forces without any political hinderance.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Mar 2010 02:30

i'm going to wager a box of mithai on eurofigther as being the winner (available only to members who physically know me in real life :mrgreen: )

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2010 04:35

^^^

Which is why you never got promoted to Admiral.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 01 Mar 2010 04:55

Lalmohan wrote:i'm going to wager a box of mithai on eurofigther as being the winner (available only to members who physically know me in real life :mrgreen: )


what a wimp :((

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 01 Mar 2010 09:24

Cain Marko wrote:Has the Apg-79 uber version been cleared for the MRCA? This could make some difference.


Thats a million dollar question. What we know so far is that TOT "HAS NOT" been approved by the US Gov AS YET!-

AN/APG - 79 - F/A-18 (Boeing - Developed by Raytheon) - "Limited TOT"

Various sources -

Asked about deliberations on licensing the so-called AESA radars for export to India, U.S. Navy Secretary Donald Winter told the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit: "I know that that's under consideration." "There's a very well detailed process that is followed by the department (of defense) that I'm not expert on, and I would defer to those who are," Winter said on Wednesday.

"The Indians want as much co-production and as much technology transfer as they can get," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, who stepped down in August as the Pentagon's top arms-sale official. "The U.S. government has to decide how far it will go toward meeting India's requests." Lockheed Martin and Boeing declined to comment on the U.S. government's delay in approving their India packages, as did the Indian embassy in Washington.

The United States already has sent AESA technology to Singapore and the United Arab Emirates, but they did not demand as much access to the underlying know-how as India has done, Ostrove said. Washington might resolve its AESA-related dilemma by clearing a "dumbed down" version, he said. Substituting a less powerful processor, for instance, would make it less capable than one now flown by U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet pilots. "This would allow the Indians to build the radar themselves while preventing the most advanced American technology from leaving the country,"


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0622871920071206

As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned, Boeing is still at the "can't discuss in an open forum, lets see how this plays out" mode. At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full-up Super Hornet IN, inclusive of the upgraded GE F414 engine, the APG-79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer. So it's quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/vi ... super.html

here will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.


Is he confirming a dumbed down version?? grrr....

http://spsaviation.net/mmrca.asp?id=2

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3826

And the same restrictions apply to the F-16 AESA Radar (LM - developed by Northrop Grumman)

What we know about other AESA radar approvals of the rest of the aircrafts??

1) RBE2 AESA - Rafale (Dassault - France, developed by Thales) - Full TOT + Source codes

This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,” Chabriol (J.P.H.P. Chabriol, Dassault’s senior vice president for military sales) told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company’s headquarters.


2) Zhuk-AE - Mig-35 (Russia- Russia's Phazotron NIIR corporation) - Full TOT + Secure codes + co-development.

Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India help in building its own advanced radar. "We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, head of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation.


3) Gripen NG (Saab and SELEX Galileo are to enter collaborative development of AESA) - Full TOT.

Saab's level of commitment can be found on the Gripens website itself..

-Saab is willing and able to provide ToT, that exceeds the requirements, to the Indian Government. The level of ToT will enable India to manage all aspects of the life cycle including design.
-Access to all levels of technology
-"Saab is willing to enter a joint venture with Indian Aerospace Industry with the aim to develop the next generation of fighters (MCA)"

4) Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar (Eurofighter - EADS) Full TOT

An upgrade of the current Captor-M, and Selex Galileo working on a "swashplate" configuration, which is a canted radar on a rotating mount in under trials and will only be in active production by 2015. Though this will be a natural successor to the Captor-E, not sure if this is or will be offered as part of future upgrades. I guess if the aircraft is selected it would only be logical.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2010 10:26

Is he confirming a dumbed down version?? grrr....


Just to clarify, ALL vendors have stated that they will meet the RFP (in all aspects of it) WRT AESA recs.

Having said that the two US vendors have stated that they will provide what ever is "approved". The general feeling is that the black box could be assembled in India and no source code.

I do recall reading an article (from either LM/Boeing) that stated that they were willing to work together (as they are with the F-35) and that it did not matter which AESA radar IAF wanted, they would get it after proper approvalS.

On others supplying code, etc - we have been through this discussion many a time. Generally others are way behind the US WRT the AESA. Getting code from them is really nice, but it would not be as mature as the one that the IAF could get from the US.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunnyv » 01 Mar 2010 11:00

sunnyv wrote:I had this news abt Indian air force changing its arsenal of MAGIC missiles to MBDA- ASRAAM instead of going to RAFAEL-PYTHON5 from ISRAEL as predicted by JANES & DN-
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4152656

and now this news
February 18, 2010: India plans to replace its Magic heat-seeking air-to-air missiles with the Asraam missile. Magic is a French developed, 89 kg (196 pound) missile with a max range of 11 kilometers. It was introduced in 1975, and underwent a major upgrade in the late 1980s. But Magic is considered past its prime.
Asraam entered service in 2002, mainly developed by Britain. It is an 88 kg (194 pound) missile with a range of 18 kilometers and a high capability heat seeker sensor system. The Asraam would replace Magic missiles now carried by a hundred Jaguar and fifty Mirage 2000 jet fighters.
To get the deal, Asraam manufacturer MBDA agreed to jointly develop, with India, a new generation air-to-air heat seeking missile.


I suppose this will be a another move that will tilt MRCA in favour of EUROPE.
Its better to have a common missile platform for our non-russian jets. If F16 or F18 were in mind i suppose ISRAEL would have been preferred for integration just like they did on their F16I

And KARTIK can you tell - Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read)
And if MRCA has open architecture can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA on MRCA

This might look stupid but i am a newbie - so do ignore any lack of knowledge.


PLZ if any one could help me with this post, I asked it few days back .
Waiting for someone to answer to this

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 01 Mar 2010 11:21

NRao wrote: it did not matter which AESA radar IAF wanted, they would get it after proper approvalS.


I would love to believe that :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 01 Mar 2010 13:48

PLZ if any one could help me with this post, I asked it few days back .
Waiting for someone to answer to this

Your first question:
I pretty sure the Su-30 MKI is capable of carrying the Meteor, but the real question is does it need to? If one of the Euro canards gets chosen would the Su-30MKI need to be integrated with the meteor? The three contenders are all great A2A fighters. The meteor is going to be incredibly expensive I've heard estimates of close to 2million dollars per missile. Missiles for the MRCA order and for the Su-30's might be expensive. It might make more sense for India to just wait for Russia's Next-Gen BVR missiles which would be used on Pak-Fa.
Your second question:
It would require some integration/testing but its not hard to integrate those missiles on the MRCA (its been done on the M-2000, Sea harriers etc). I don't think the US would allow ASTRA to be used on the MRCA. They've never really allowed foreign armaments on their aircraft (except to Israel or NATO allies). They might allow India to integrate it but with the Aim-120-D available i don't know why you would want to integrate ASTRA. SAAB has said it would help India integrate any foreign weapon India desired on the Gripen-NG. EADS said they would have no problems with India integrating indigenous weapons, didn't mention if they would help India do it though (considering the size of the deal they obviously would even if it mean Integrating Russian arms). France would allow it im gonna assume b/c they can't afford to loose this order at any cost.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunnyv » 01 Mar 2010 14:02

b_patel wrote:
Your first question:
I pretty sure the Su-30 MKI is capable of carrying the Meteor, but the real question is does it need to? If one of the Euro canards gets chosen would the Su-30MKI need to be integrated with the meteor? The three contenders are all great A2A fighters. The meteor is going to be incredibly expensive I've heard estimates of close to 2million dollars per missile. Missiles for the MRCA order and for the Su-30's might be expensive. It might make more sense for India to just wait for Russia's Next-Gen BVR missiles which would be used on Pak-Fa.
Your second question:
It would require some integration/testing but its not hard to integrate those missiles on the MRCA (its been done on the M-2000, Sea harriers etc). I don't think the US would allow ASTRA to be used on the MRCA. They've never really allowed foreign armaments on their aircraft (except to Israel or NATO allies). They might allow India to integrate it but with the Aim-120-D available i don't know why you would want to integrate ASTRA. SAAB has said it would help India integrate any foreign weapon India desired on the Gripen-NG. EADS said they would have no problems with India integrating indigenous weapons, didn't mention if they would help India do it though (considering the size of the deal they obviously would even if it mean Integrating Russian arms). France would allow it im gonna assume b/c they can't afford to loose this order at any cost.


Thanks for reply
I actually asked it deliberately bcoz i read somewhere in report by CAG that india's arsenal of a2a missiles were not performing at full par. METEOR on su30 will come in handy then.
And ASTRA needs to be integrated to MRCA bcoz - it will cost less in a typical a2a mission in war with PAF(once F16 are cleared).
And to wipe out outdated fighters like F7,mirage3, or JF17 for that matter there is no need to fire METEOR if ASTRA can finish the job.
And the specs or kinematics , sensors, seekors on ASTRA are not bad , how will they compare to MICA/R77 that i cant guess.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 01 Mar 2010 15:09

Northrop pushes for F-16IN.. claims APG-80 on the F-16 is the only one to be "tested under Indian conditions".. also talks about customer-based customization for the future..

How the Northrop AESA radar compare with that offered by competitors in the Indian MMRCA competition?

Dave Wallace (Mr Dave Wallace, Manager, F16 Sensor Improvements, Northrop Grumman Global Sensor Solutions.): I really don’t know, to be honest we have familiarity with our American brethren who supplying their radar with the Boeing. It should be noted that Boeing did not bring their radar to India and try in the Indian environment and Lockheed did, so we’ve demonstrated that our radars are fully operational and exportable here in these conditions.

The more we can learn about our competitors from the Press is that they are in various stages of development. Apparently a couple of them have a flown a couple of times, a couple of their fighters but they can hardly be conceived to be operational. The biggest difference here is that APG 80 has been operational for 4 years after development and testing now and all of the modes are mature, proven, can be demonstrated and measured. From the time they have been developed to the time they’ve been operational use, all the modes have been tweaked by the customers and they have to perform at a very high level. I think our other 4 competitors have the 4 year operational period yet to come. So, they don’t have that benefit of expertise. Well in this case, it has been fully developed from the time is has been operational. I was explaining it to someone we make the radars and we supply with modes and performance the customer demands to begin with. What I’ve learnt watching the flight trial over here is our pilots have spoken to customers and they have made some very clever usage of this and taken some interesting paths that we could not envision – very positive paths.

We must also notice the maturity and reliability. We have never had to replace an APG 80 antenna, over 40,000 flying hours and we’ve never had to replace it.


I thought Raytheon is a all weather radar.. Would weather have any impact on the performance of radars? Is Northrop justified in claiming brownie points for having the radar tested in Indian conditions?? Not as far as I know..

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/detailin ... .jsp?id=31

NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2010 17:28

shukla wrote:
NRao wrote: it did not matter which AESA radar IAF wanted, they would get it after proper approvalS.


I would love to believe that :)


For one you seem to be fairly recent in the game (perhaps I am wrong). But do make google your better friend. It is all out there. I did not bring any of my bookmarks when I changed my laptop. However, here is an example (I know there are FAR better ones - like LM and Boeing themselves):

Northrop Grumman is developing several fourth generation AESA radars for several platforms. The AN/APG-77 is operational with the USAF/Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor since January 2006. The AN/APG-81 developed for the F-35 Lightning II (JSF) and AN/APG-80 developed for the F-16 Block 60, built for the United Arab Emirates (UAE) – this model is also offered with the F-16 proposed for India's MRCA program. APG-81 will introduce new capabilities yet unsupported by other AESA systems, including detection and tracking of both fixed and moving ground targets. It was the first time the actual radar is displayed in public.


And even this seems dated!!

Here is Feb 15, 2010 interview (with Head of Lockheed Martin India, Mr. Roger Rose) on other techs (outside of MRCA) being "offered".

OK. Found one for you:

Raytheon to transfer AESA radar technology to India up to the level permitted by US government

That too from 2008 for heaven sake.

You need to do some leg work buddy. Look for statements from Boeing, LM, Northrop and Raytheon. There are PLENTY of statements specifically related to the Indian MRCA.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 01 Mar 2010 18:04

NRao wrote:You need to do some leg work buddy. Look for statements from Boeing, LM, Northrop and Raytheon. There are PLENTY of statements specifically related to the Indian MRCA.


When I said 'I would love to believe that', (it wasn't doubting your claims that there are statements around..) I was just expressing skepticism that US would allow even limited TOT as a joke.. Humor me :) sorry for the misunderstanding matey..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 02 Mar 2010 00:18

I think US would allow a scaled down or may be a full TOT on apg79/80 ,they may not give100 percent technology, but still giving a better offer than others.

I guess they wont allow any one else to take back $10-12 bn ,because whosoever wins ,will have a long term presence in Indian defence market ,. And they are playing long term,(nuke deal,patent agreements,etc)

If they give something they will earn something as well,. Imagine a situation where they earn 100s of millions from yearly upgrades and also have an arm twisting position in future,.

They wont leave this opportunity as of now, specially not for the Russians ,who will stimulate their sluggish arms industry,from such a contract.

If we invite USA or Russia as the winner of MRCA ,we give them a huge influence in our defence procurement , right now khans have tasted the blood and will give any TOT we ask, because they will use it as a bait to enter our market ,. once they are in,our position would be like japan,aus,SK.

Better to give this contract to the French ,our long time supplier ,offering an aircraft which most of us prefer.
After all they were supposed to win the contract initially but they closed mirage assembly lines
I am sure they will happily give much more than what is written in contract terms :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 02 Mar 2010 01:26

Going with US has a disadvantage of giving "arm twisting" capability to an unreliable partner
Going with Russia means, too much of dependence as they already have a sizable share in the Indian market

We have Options like going with France, EADS, Sweden.

Objectively, its positive impact on LCA must be considered.

If we choose France, then we have to make sure that they play along without causing any overruns in Scorpene deal.
It appears both the French and EADS have good chances.

This will help maintain the balance in procurement. Going with US will be the most foolish decision as they cannot be trusted for anything crucial.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 02 Mar 2010 02:48

sunnyv wrote:And KARTIK can you tell - Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read)
And if MRCA has open architecture can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA on MRCA

This might look stupid but i am a newbie - so do ignore any lack of knowledge.


Sorry, I didn’t see this post earlier. There is nothing that restricts the Su-30MKI from carrying a Meteor, although the likelihood of that happening is very small. You’d need a NATO standard pylon since the electrical and cooling connectors for the Meteor won’t work on the Russian pylons on the Su-30MKI. That can be done easily, but then there is the big issue of integrating the Meteor with the Bars radar on the MKI. See, integrating an IR or IIR weapon that doesn’t require target information and mid-course updates from the radar (like Python V or ASRAAM) can be done in-house in India itself. It’s been done in the past where R-73s were integrated with the Mirage-2000 and Magic-II was integrated with the MiG-21s. But when it comes to active-guided missiles like the Meteor or R-77, unless and until the source codes are provided to the integrator, it is not possible to integrate the weapon with the radar. And being an EU weapon that too cutting edge, I don’t think that MBDA will part with source codes to allow Russia to integrate the Meteor to the Bars or Irbis. And Russia would likely be just as reticent in wanting to do the same, which is handing over the radar source codes to allow a European company to integrate the Meteor.

Instead I believe that the updated versions of the R-77 will continue to be the main BVR weapon on the MKI even after its Mid Life Update.

For the Astra to be used on the MRCA, India needs the radar source codes from the manufacturers so that the radar can guide the Astra till its onboard active seeker acquires the target in its terminal phase. I think that that source code transfer has been added as a clause in the RFP and ability to integrate our own weapons to the MRCA through-out its life-cycle is one of the aims for transfer of source codes. For the Su-30MKI, I think that DRDO will seek Russian help in integrating and test-firing the Astra and use the knowledge and experience gained from that to try the same with the other platforms in the IAF (MiG-29, Mirage-2000 and LCA) and later on with the MRCA.

Regarding the MRCA using Python V or ASRAAM, it can be done. Any of the MRCA winners can do that, although my guess is that if the MiG-35 wins, the K-74 will be the WVR weapon of choice and if the Rafale is chosen, Dassault will try to push for the MBDA MICA IR although it’s terribly expensive. But the IAF can make a choice and ask the OEM to integrate it. Considering the scale of the MRCA order, all of them will surely comply.
Last edited by Kartik on 02 Mar 2010 02:59, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2010 02:55

price contrasting here..
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12470 The upgrade, which will give the aircraft new radar systems, a new weapon suite, missiles, electronic warfare system and modern electronic warfare, is crucial for the India Air Force as it would also give its most potent fighter an extension in service life. The deal will upgrade 51of the fighters

no engines? /ot.

nevertheless, that is astounding $43M per upgrade.. The French is so expensive!. One can't think about India getting Rafale at this ransacking prices (pro-rate yourself for Rafale cost)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VishalJ » 02 Mar 2010 08:54

Came across this photo, why does he look so surprised ?

Kersi D
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 02 Mar 2010 11:53

Lalmohan wrote:i'm going to wager a box of mithai on eurofigther as being the winner (available only to members who physically know me in real life :mrgreen: )


STINGY !!!!!!

You can give a marwadi or a scotsman an inferiority complex !!

K

manjgu
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 02 Mar 2010 12:08

i am willing to wager 2 boxes of mithai ( kalakand / doda sweet) for eurofighter.... for anybody who can make it to my residence :mrgreen:

just because we could resist yankee presure !!

jamwal
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 02 Mar 2010 12:13

^^^
I can :lol:


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