Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 13 May 2011 13:06

@ Rohitvats

What's your take on the NAMICA thing? Any idea why the sudden flip?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 May 2011 13:54

Even Nag itslef is in question. May not be inducted in full force. Interventions may come.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 May 2011 05:45

chackojoseph wrote:Even Nag itslef is in question. May not be inducted in full force. Interventions may come.

Could you please explain on the missile thread.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2011 06:32

Can someone please explain this to me? I got it from this link...

At Ex Vijayee Bhava

Validating the joint nature of the operations, GOC-in-C, Western Command, Lt Gen SR Ghosh flew in an IAF Jaguar over the large exercise area covering nearly 2,400 sq km.

It is my understanding that you have to be qualified to operate any fighter aircraft in the Indian Air Force before you can fly in it. The only exception to this would be that one would have to be a rookie pilot learning the ropes of his new aircraft. So if that is correct, how did Lt Gen Ghosh sit in a dual seater Jaguar? It has to be, because someone has to pilot it. I am sure he is not a Jaguar pilot! Is this DDM or is this for real?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 May 2011 06:40

Rakesh wrote:It is my understanding that you have to be qualified to operate any fighter aircraft in the Indian Air Force before you can fly in it. The only exception to this would be that one would have to be a rookie pilot learning the ropes of his new aircraft. So if that is correct, how did Lt Gen Ghosh sit in a dual seater Jaguar? It has to be, because someone has to pilot it. I am sure he is not a Jaguar pilot! Is this DDM or is this for real?

Is it a hard and fast rule? Our presidents seem to take a joyride in the Su-30MKI at least once every tenure. The last I can recall a general officer flying in an IAF fighter would be ACM Tipnis during the Op Safed Sagar in a Mirage-2000.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2011 06:44

Viv S wrote:Is it a hard and fast rule? Our presidents seem to take a joyride in the Su-30MKI at least once every tenure. The last I can recall a general officer flying in an IAF fighter would be ACM Tipnis during the Op Safed Sagar in a Mirage-2000.

Yes Saar, I believe it is. Presidents are exceptions to the rule...they are the C-in-C of the Armed Forces. Guess they have that privilege.

ACM Tipnis is fully qualified on the Mirage 2000.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Perso ... ipnis.html

From the above link...

He was posted to France in October 1983 as the Team Leader for the Mirage Project Team in the rank of Group Captain, where he was responsible for the negotiation and purchase of the Mirage 2000 aircraft into the IAF. On returning back to India three years later, he was posted to the Mirage 2000 base of the IAF, as the Air Officer Commanding, Air Force Station Gwalior in the rank of Air Commodore.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 May 2011 06:48

IIRC Adm Arun Prakash had a ride during the MKI induction ceremony and reraising of No 20 sqdn.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2011 06:51

Rahul M: Another service chief who is a qualified pilot and flew with No 20 Lightnings Squadron, IAF during the 1971 Indo-Pak War flying Hunters.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 May 2011 06:58

I know he served with IAF during '71 but I doubt he is qualified on the MKI.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 May 2011 07:32

Rakesh wrote:Rahul M: Another service chief who is a qualified pilot and flew with No 20 Lightnings Squadron, IAF during the 1971 Indo-Pak War flying Hunters.

...and blasted Chuck Yeager's BeechCraft to its 72.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 May 2011 07:45

lot of new engagement plans, changes in doctrine, formations and executions, information systems, logistics, etc changes once we introduce arjun, namica, nags etc into war games. so, we don't want to talk further on this for games perhaps since none are operational yet.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2011 07:45

Raja Bose wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Rahul M: Another service chief who is a qualified pilot and flew with No 20 Lightnings Squadron, IAF during the 1971 Indo-Pak War flying Hunters.
...and blasted Chuck Yeager's BeechCraft to its 72.

And here is the man's autograph on a hat

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 May 2011 08:37

^^^Who's autograph is on the right?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 14 May 2011 11:39

Pratyush wrote:Guys,

Arjun can only be excercised if the formation equiped with it is a part of the ex. However in a situation where the orders have been capped at 248 and MK2 as follow on. it is a bit premature to accept that Arjun will be a part of regular formation excersise. AS at its best it will not equip more then 12 to 15 % of the armour formations before the FMBT comes on line.

That being the case the IA will excersise with what it has, however much we wish for Arjun.

well your wish is granted

SWAC is next in the line for ex. after the ex. vijaye-bhave ....

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 14 May 2011 12:50

Raja Bose wrote:^^^Who's autograph is on the right?

L-R: Adm. Arun Prakash, Cmde. CO Balaji & Capt. JA Maolankar (Heads the NLCA flight testing)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2011 20:20

Rahul M wrote:I know he served with IAF during '71 but I doubt he is qualified on the MKI.

You are right, but I guess they gave him a joyride just because of his past stint with the IAF. Anyways I am beating a dead horse. I guess senior officers do get rides aboard IAF fighter aircraft. I never knew.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 May 2011 20:30

still no pics of mk-2

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 May 2011 21:31

LiveFist corroborates rohit's post earlier on some people's takleef on IA not using Arjun in its latest wargames ...

Why MBT Arjun Isn't Part Of The Army's Current Wargame

There's a good deal of curiosity out there (and some speculation) about why India's indigenous Arjun main battle tank was kept out of the current corps-level exercise Vijayee Bhava that's on in 2,400 sq-km of territory not far from where the Arjuns recently entered operational service. Well for an official word (cue, conspiracy theorists), I put the question on Thursday afternoon to the Army's Western Commander Lt Gen Shankar Ghosh, under whose command (HQ: Chandimandir) the exercise is being conducted. He said, "It's very simple. I don't have any Arjuns at Western Command. I cannot use what I do not have under me."

The Arjun regiment (75th Armoured) comes under the Army's South-Western Command, headquartered in Jaipur, a theatre formation that apparently had nothing to do with the current exercise in terms of asset contributions.
...
...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 08:52

^^^^ The fact is true.

At the same time, Read here , The SW command is participating. Hence the whine. He should have asked the Q to the SW commander on why it is not participating and if they had plans to put it through the grine some other excercise. I think the Q was asked to a wrong person.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2011 09:03

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ The fact is true.

At the same time, Read here , The SW command is participating. Hence the whine. He should have asked the Q to the SW commander on why it is not participating and if they had plans to put it through the grine some other excercise. I think the Q was asked to a wrong person.

Can you tell me where does your report says that SW Command is participating?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 09:12

rohitvats wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ The fact is true.

At the same time, Read here , The SW command is participating. Hence the whine. He should have asked the Q to the SW commander on why it is not participating and if they had plans to put it through the grine some other excercise. I think the Q was asked to a wrong person.
Can you tell me where does your report says that SW Command is participating?

It came from Antony'y visit on border. It was mentioned.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2011 09:19

^^^But the link you've posted does not say anything about SW Command participating? And even it is, in what form?

Arjun is with armored brigade of 18 RAPID - unless this Division is participating, which does not seem to be the case as per all known reports, Arjun is not going to participate. And btw, Antony visited Jaisalmer - the Arjuns with 75th Armored Regiment in Jaisalmer are with Southern Command and not SW Command.

You're feeding Unnecessary CTs without any logic.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 09:22

^^^^ I have been feeding what I received. So please mind your keyboard.

I have given the link to be read in alternative to typing the entire thing again. Also, Read carefully what I wrote. I said he asked a question to wrong guy.

Added later ..

I get you point. It is with southern command.

I regret the error.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2011 09:33

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ I have been feeding what I received. So please mind your keyboard.

I have given the link to be read in alternative to typing the entire thing again. Also, Read carefully what I wrote. I said he asked a question to wrong guy.

Why don't you go back and read your own story? Again, can you tell me where your own report says that SW Command is participating? This is what you've written:

The Ambala based 2 Strike corps will engage in a fortnight long excercise starting from May 8th. The Excercise will be conducted on the Rajasthan border and 10,000 troops are sceduled to participate. It includes elements from the artillery and armour. Elements from the Meerut based 22 Div, Patiala based 1 Armoured and “Rapids,” the Dehradun based 14 Division will be a part of the wargames.

OK. 2 Strike Corps is the main element in the exercise. Fine so far.

The aim of the excercise is to transform the strike corps into a more agile, more lethal and networked force capable of meeting all future challenges. The excercise is also going to test the synergy between the Army’s southern and Western command. In 2005, a new South-Western Army Command was created at Jaipur, between the Western and Southern Commands, for a greater offensive punch along the entire western front with Pakistan.

So, synergy being tested between Southern and Western Command. Fine. And then snippet about SW Command. Nothing on the participation of SW Command so far.

The excercise is a part of excercises conducted by the Mathura based 1 Corps, Ambala based 2 Corps and Bhopal based 21 Corps. Each year, one of the three Corps get permission to practice their wargames. Last year, the Bhopal based 21 corps conducted an excercise based on Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) Warfare conditions.

So, the three Strike Corps alternately conduct annual exercises of large scale as this. Fine.

Can you tell me where does it say about participation of SW Command in the entire report - which is what I had questioned?

This is what you wrote:

At the same time, Read here , The SW command is participating. Hence the whine. He should have asked the Q to the SW commander on why it is not participating and if they had plans to put it through the grine some other excercise. I think the Q was asked to a wrong person

So, if you meant Southern Command and not SW Command (that is what your report also says), then own up rather than teaching me keyboard manners.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 09:34

I have edited the post. Above and regreted.

The keyboard comment is because you should stop irritating comments and state the facts. If you do it, i can read and understand. Otherwise it gets lost in what you are saying. more concentration goes into the nonsense you type and the fact gets unnoticed.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2011 09:50

chackojoseph wrote:I have edited the post. Above and regreted.

The keyboard comment is because you should stop irritating comments and state the facts. If you do it, i can read and understand. Otherwise it gets lost in what you are saying. more concentration goes into the nonsense you type and the fact gets unnoticed.

All the posts by me are factual and to the point. If you get down from your high-horse, may be, you can read through them and not fly off the tangent.

And since, you already have access to MOD and Services HQ, you can ask them in what form the Southern Command is participating and let everyone here know the story.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 09:55

^^^^ I have made my point. Take it or leave it.

Why should I follow a poinless exercise on your Southern Command angle when they are not participating? ---> this is exactly the keyboard manners of yours I was talking about.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 May 2011 10:36

Please stop it guys, please for god's sake. This thread is about educating us about our armoured corps and not about misunderstandings.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2011 11:07

rohit don't be impolite. Knowledge confers special responsibilities.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 May 2011 17:11

Raja Bose wrote:^^^Who's autograph is on the right?

Mao

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 15 May 2011 20:09

rohit don't be impolite. Knowledge confers special responsibilities.

Ramanaji: Not taking up cudgels on anyone's behalf, but lets put a stop to nonsense from self styled yellow journalists as well. The shallowness and sheer errors in some of the "writings" spouted by some characters would make the Kerala version of Punjab Kesari proud. If we want to uphold some standards, pls crackdown on sheer BS as well...

On some page, it is about Golf courses and some MLI WW-II veteran (jeez its difficult to determine who is senile- the veteran or the "journalist'); in some other page , its some fiction about knowing the inner workings of BRO because some character has "experience" of traveling around on BRO roads; in this page it is about making the Arjun regiment transfer commands just to keep some hack happy...all in the best traditions of "adjust maadi" ...

And when rohit points out the obvious BS, the character puffs up like an overstuffed puffer fish and says take it or leave it, and provides links to his own mag articles as supporting evidence!! Talk about circular logic...

Can we pls have at least a minimal level of quality control!!

certainly we can, and the first step would be to cut down on posts from people like you who twist facts and use lahori logic post after post. don't think that your hyper aggressive posting history has gone unnoticed.
Rahul.

manum · Post by **manum** » 15 May 2011 20:21

and that is, not to say anything? or being shot down be sheer data..what are you a communist supporter...? Its better things to be sorted by two individuals and a senior member interrupting only if fundamental errors occur...no need to get nasty, let two take down together...it is better than you dirtying the water...
Let mods interrupt if they find some thing to point about...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 May 2011 20:33

Avik wrote:Ramanaji: Not taking up cudgels on anyone's behalf, but lets put a stop to nonsense from self styled yellow journalists as well. Can we pls have at least a minimal level of quality control!!

Can we keep the ad hominem attacks out please. Where & how is Chackojoseph a self styled yellow journalist? I think he has been reasonably upfront about his profession & he has a right to his views. As matter of fact, you are taking cudgels on one side despite your note otherwise, and the discussion continues to be sidetracked. The point is rohit has made the correct claim that there were no Arjuns in the exercise because the command having them did not participate. Fair point & can we now move on?
The larger point is why the Army continues to drag its feet regarding Arjun inductions, with only orders placed for 248 units. Are there any answers on that front..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 20:43

<snip>

do NOT respond. report post if you have a problem with it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 May 2011 20:59

Chacko,

Are there any hopes for any further MK2 orders beyond the initial 124? What does your grapevine say? Sometime back one heard at industry events etc that CVRDE was somewhat optimistic that the Arjun will speak for itself resulting in substantial orders but then again, Ajai Shukla recently noted:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... ad-to.html

He notes the T-72 Upgrade program continues to dodder, without a FCS being selected by the Army trials team (after a decade since the program was launched!), no engine upgrade means that extra armour will compromise mobility (and extra armour is sorely needed to keep pace with todays threats)..

But, since more than a thousand T-72s will continue to be in service beyond 2022, the army plans to spend Rs 5 crore per T-72 (it was bought for Rs 9 crore each) on retrofitting crucial systems, including the fire control system, main engine and night vision devices. This procurement has sputtered along for almost a decade with barely visible success.

The early retirement of the T-72 has been stymied by the army’s incomprehensible refusal to order larger numbers of the DRDO-developed Arjun, a 60-tonne Main Battle Tank that outperformed the T-90 during comparative trials conducted by the army’s 180 Armoured Brigade near Bikaner in March 2010. While a bulk order for Arjun tanks would allow HVF Avadi to scale up its production line, the army has capped its order at 248 Arjuns.

The T-72, after its planned upgrade, would cost Rs 14 crore per tank. The T-90s that HVF has produced since 2009 cost Rs 17.5 crores apiece. In contrast, a brand new Arjun, with a 1400 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, an acclaimed 120 millimetre gun, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, comes in at Rs 16.8 crores.

Given the Arjun’s much-delayed success, the army and the DRDO are formulating the specifications of a next-generation tank, so far referred to as the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT). This will be developed by the DRDO as an entirely indigenous project. Additionally, the army has sent out a Request for Information (RFI) to global vendors for light tanks, which it plans to deploy in north-eastern India and for mountain warfare.

My only reaction to this FMBT business is "?????" - when we already have an excellent indigenous design available!!

The T-72 has had its day, we should start retiring the oldest, mothballing/keeping in reserve the ones that still have life in them and selectively upgrade the newest ones to the best standard, while inducting Arjuns en masse. Ask the GOI for funds, for the overall logistics upgrade. They will pony up, given the Arjun is a local product and will significantly benefit local industry. This will also allow for license production of key systems and components that were hitherto imported, driving down the import % by cost per tank, as is commonly used to target the program. I find it somewhat ridiculous the IA continues to order a superior design (to the T-90) piecemeal, whilst cribbing about its import content by cost, not noticing that the piecemeal orders prevent volume indigenization. Also, the staged upgrade program for T-72 has had its day. That might have been ok for the early-mid 90's, with some T-72s receiving all upgrades, rest getting by with basic ones, but now, as the Lebanon conflict showed, the proliferation of antitank weaponry & in the Indian context, the extensive upgrades being done to Pak/Prc armor make most of their designs peers to the T-72. There is no clear edge in terms of firepower & mobility. Best to go for comprehensive upgrades AND newer tanks like the Arjun. All the while, there continue to be reports that the T-90 thermal imager problem remains. How will they ever fit in the Battlefield Management System into that cramped, turret & deal with its heat generation/electricity problems?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2011 21:19

KaranM,

If you remember my predictions on the second order. My next prediction is a third lot with mk 2+ (but, not mk 3). The 500 required could be in service. You see the logic of placing Arjuns in Southern Command. DRDO labs in south come under S command. This is something akin to LCA being housed near HAL and is expected to be southern Air command part. It has to do with logistics. At the same time, Arjuns are in Rajasthan, along the borders and deployed in one of the hotest part. IMHO, Arjuns will be ultimately joining the Western or SW command. SW is my best bet. I also have additional point to make. In the event of a major war, Arjuns will move further mid western as western command will be seen moving mid western to north.

Arjun might have a mk3 in 4th and 5th lot. MK 1 and mk 2's will see upgrades of upto mk 2+.

So my final tally is 300+ tanks with mk2+ standards. Then 300++ to -600 in Mk4.

FMBT's are expected to replace the older T-90's, as I see DRDO being able to modify Arjuns to meet the updated situations as it is made in India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 May 2011 22:08

mk3? any details of the specs in comparison with mk2?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 May 2011 00:06

Wow - 900 more Arjuns? Chacko, is that your gut feel, or something that has been communicated, based on user perception? Given the intransigence shown by the IA in taking even the first 124, if they take another 300 of the MK2 variety, I'd say the Arjun has come good. Your thoughts welcome

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 May 2011 08:39

KaranM,

Not 900 more. I wrote - 600, means below 600. My guess is 4 -5 lots (2 already placed).

I will give you some feedback on Arjun.

The tanks have been well received and the logistical issues are being sorted out (as with most inductions). I had been to a function and I was been asked "don't you know Arjun outperformed T-90 in the trials?" It was an indirect answer to my query on its induction.

is that your gut feel, or something that has been communicated, based on user perception?

It is my perception. :p: The 500 figure from DRDO is expected to be a bench mark for the production. IMO, 500 + (- 600) is already figured out in the current plans.

SaiK

mk3 in my opinion will be some difference in electronics.

mk4 i am refering to MLU's.

MK1 MLU will bring it on par with MK 3, hence I am saying mk2++

At the fag end of the deployment, we will see MK2++ & Mk4 standards existing side by side. You will also see T-90 MLU'S and FMBT's too. But, FMBT deployment will take some time. Everything falls in Long term re equipment plan.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 16 May 2011 08:49

chackojoseph ji,
Thanks for the input. Even though -600 is too low a number (from where will the replacement of T-72s come?), it is still a number which exceeds our expectations from Army. Hope your perception turns into reality.