Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 20 Jun 2010 13:31


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 20 Jun 2010 13:39

SS, why the new thread ? I think we had agreed that threads would run upto 100 pages ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 20 Jun 2010 14:09

Shourya without the booster motor is already something like P-3 solid fueled. The point is whether it will be deployed in such configuration!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 21 Jun 2010 17:08

As this is new thread, answering my incomplete reply here...
viewtopic.php?p=855315#p855315

I said atleast one difference. There is one more difference. Dr.Prahlada, drdo, mentioned Shourya was designed from the beginning as sub launched missile. Designed as canistered missile, it doesnt need diverter as can be seen in the "Sagarika annexure" pic.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Jun 2010 17:51

I got an answer to this too. Shaurya will not be lite.

Prithvi = upto 350 kms
Brahmos = 300 kms
Shaurya = 700 Kms
Nirbhay = 1500 kms
and so on.

There will be waste of time, money and manpower to keep duplicating between these missiles.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 21 Jun 2010 20:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 21 Jun 2010 18:00

Brahmos-2 cannot be 1500 km as the terms of MCTR hold.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Jun 2010 18:09

koti wrote:Brahmos-2 cannot be 1500 km as the terms of MCTR hold.



edit.....
You are right. Error creeps in. I have modified the post accordingly. I was trying to point out why Shourya Lite won't be possible.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 21 Jun 2010 20:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Jun 2010 20:00

You guys are correct Look here

The speed is 6 mach and range not over 290 Kms. I have edited my post as such.

The point I was making is that Shaurya Lite is not going to happen. because its duplication.

Added later....

You see, in 2004, there was a forum called Proton River. We used to discuss 1500 km range Brahmos. Last year, we learnt that it was called Nirbhay and its sub sonic. Old habits die hard. :D

Added later....

I was tempted to call it a secret project. But, you know satyamev jayte. Its better to admit mistake than bullshit. :lol:
Last edited by chackojoseph on 21 Jun 2010 20:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 21 Jun 2010 20:11

Viewed that way, if you discount the sub launch shaurya itself is a duplication of Agni 1.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Jun 2010 20:17

Anujan wrote:Viewed that way, if you discount the sub launch shaurya itself is a duplication of Agni 1.


Right. But Shaurya has a different flight profile.

I added prithvi as its a handy missile and in use, even though its a BM.

I will repeat.

I was only trying to tell why Shaurya will not be a lite.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Jun 2010 22:55

There was a heated argument some months ago on whether Shourya was a CM or a BM or something in between. I dont want to bring it up again. But a correction to your comment: Shourya flies low compared to BMs & stays within the atmosphere - that is correct. But it is still 50 KMs above the surface. So, its not terrain hugging. It can be picked up by a ground radar within a certain range. However, given that it flies a depressed trajectory, combined with its high speed & maneuvering makes it very difficult to be intercepted. Its over-kill for the Pakis anyway.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2010 02:16

Prem Kumar wrote:There was a heated argument some months ago on whether Shourya was a CM or a BM or something in between. I dont want to bring it up again. But a correction to your comment: Shourya flies low compared to BMs & stays within the atmosphere - that is correct. But it is still 50 KMs above the surface. So, its not terrain hugging. It can be picked up by a ground radar within a certain range. However, given that it flies a depressed trajectory, combined with its high speed & maneuvering makes it very difficult to be intercepted. Its over-kill for the Pakis anyway.



To add to the above description, Shourya is a boost glide vehicle. Its not a re-entry vehicle. Its upper atmosphere all the way and can perform terminal manouvers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Jun 2010 07:17

Thanks Ramana. Have any Shouryas been inducted so far?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby andy B » 22 Jun 2010 07:41

ramana wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:There was a heated argument some months ago on whether Shourya was a CM or a BM or something in between. I dont want to bring it up again. But a correction to your comment: Shourya flies low compared to BMs & stays within the atmosphere - that is correct. But it is still 50 KMs above the surface. So, its not terrain hugging. It can be picked up by a ground radar within a certain range. However, given that it flies a depressed trajectory, combined with its high speed & maneuvering makes it very difficult to be intercepted. Its over-kill for the Pakis anyway.



To add to the above description, Shourya is a boost glide vehicle. Its not a re-entry vehicle. Its upper atmosphere all the way and can perform terminal manouvers.


There is some very interesting and useful information on the boost glide vehicle concept development and application also of the manouvering re-entry vehicle in the book Lightning Bolts by William Yengst...rakit loving jingoes should get their hands on this book for sure.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Jun 2010 08:48

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks Ramana. Have any Shouryas been inducted so far?


No, next test flight is due.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VikB » 22 Jun 2010 09:35

^^^ Garu log, one quick clarification please.

If there is a target at 250-300 km, what is better to use - Prithvi BM or Brahmos CM? What are relative merits and de-merits?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vril » 22 Jun 2010 10:10

Brahmos can be deployed and fired a ta very short notice and is a conventional precision weapon. can be used to take out gathering of generals and kernals at GHQ.

Prithvi will take time to fuel and ballistic profile will make sure we have nuclear war at hand.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby neerajb » 22 Jun 2010 10:54

Tushar wrote:I have a question for anyone who can answer me, the video in the multimedia section of the Brahmos being shiplaunched vertically does not have fins as showed in its still pictures. Any reason? are the fins supressed untill the missile stabilizes or gets on the rights trajectory.


Nice find, actually never observed that. By looking at the pics/videos it seems the wings and fins are not visible during the boost phase. When the bosster separates, the missile appears as a speck in the video. So, Hard to confirm when the wings/fins pop out. But this happens only in VL Brahmos, the other one has the wings/fins out as it leaves the tube.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 22 Jun 2010 11:18

^ As soon as the missile is tilted horizontally and nose cone cover pops out the fins are deployed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprb4zUI ... re=related

0:48 seconds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Jun 2010 11:28

Vril wrote:Brahmos can be deployed and fired a ta very short notice and is a conventional precision weapon. can be used to take out gathering of generals and kernals at GHQ.

Prithvi will take time to fuel and ballistic profile will make sure we have nuclear war at hand.


Not sure of the long filling time. IMO, Prithvi's will be battle ready by then.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 22 Jun 2010 11:48

In terms of costs won't prithvi be a better option ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 22 Jun 2010 12:54

While it is debatable, I still feel BM should be avoided to avoid the nuke escalation..... Cost is not important here as the same will be vertically high in event of nuke fall out...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VikB » 22 Jun 2010 14:24

Beats me still.

If we have to nuke say Pakistan, it would be better to use Agni1 with 700km range so that it is reasonably away from the border. So seems that Prithvi is to be used only for tactical conventional payload only. Then will it be better to use a BM vis a vis CM? Unless we are using tactical (smaller) nukes (that does not look an ok thing to my mind as it would surely trigger bigger nuke war)

Related thoughts - what will be the total flight time for a BM and a CM in this case? As in launching Brahmos and Prithvi for 250-300 km range, how long will it take each to reach the destination? Both are hard to kill - one being supersonic and other being BM. Plus, as a comparison - which of the two is more logistically friendly? Meaning - less no. of support vehicles, time to launch, complexity of system (filling of liquid fuel), etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 22 Jun 2010 15:49

VikB wrote:Beats me still.

If we have to nuke say Pakistan, it would be better to use Agni1 with 700km range so that it is reasonably away from the border. So seems that Prithvi is to be used only for tactical conventional payload only. Then will it be better to use a BM vis a vis CM? Unless we are using tactical (smaller) nukes (that does not look an ok thing to my mind as it would surely trigger bigger nuke war)

Related thoughts - what will be the total flight time for a BM and a CM in this case? As in launching Brahmos and Prithvi for 250-300 km range, how long will it take each to reach the destination? Both are hard to kill - one being supersonic and other being BM. Plus, as a comparison - which of the two is more logistically friendly? Meaning - less no. of support vehicles, time to launch, complexity of system (filling of liquid fuel), etc.


When Prithvi was concept we did not have any Brahmos or any other option even for that range.
Prithvi still holds its ground for tactical nuclear attack. Though it might escalate the level of conflict, it would be the best option to retaliate in case of a similar attack on any of the forward military targets. There is still no confirmed information that Brahmos can be armed with N-warheads that we possess.
Prithvi is said to be maneuverable in the air, that gives it a good chance of a successful hit.

Similar strategy can be seen in Russians fielding Iskinder-M 's even though they have good CM's.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vril » 22 Jun 2010 16:28

i dont think there can be any conventional tactical BM attack nor there are any tactical nukes.its a full blown nuclear war. besides prithvi is more cumbersome for warhead it delivers at the distance it does. i think its going to be phased out withmore numbers of brahmos and brahmos II

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby KiranM » 22 Jun 2010 16:49

IMHO the difference between operational use of Brahmos and Prithvi is in the type of warheads to be used. Brahmos will use a unitary armour piercing warhead. Prithvi provides flexibility in using from cluster bomblets to FAE to dispersing mines. Not sure if same flexibility can be imparted to Brahmos.

Regards,
Kiran
Last edited by KiranM on 22 Jun 2010 16:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 22 Jun 2010 16:51

If the Indians are indeed going to phase out the prithvis ., good idea to gift or sell them them to Vietnam and Taiwan .And get some money in the bargain.They would only be happy to have some hundreds of SRBMs for immediate deployment !

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 22 Jun 2010 19:41

why cant a shorter 200-300km type Shourya be quickly developed to replace prithvi? its cansister launched, solid fuel and hence doesnt need any handling / prep time before firing.

i think what Singha ji meant was some thing like the Israeli LORA or the american ATACMS missile ,both have a range of 200-300 km, with a payload of about 500lb or so. They are guided(GPS mostly) all the way, cannisterised and their TELs carry 4 to 2 missiles at a time. They are designed to be cheap (relatively) so that they can be used in a more "tactical" sense on lower value targets .
Both the Prithvi and the Brahmos will be restricted to high value or critical target.The former because it is a liquid fueled and has a large no of support systems and the latter because it is sh!t expensive.
I think we really need something like this cheap, accurate, ready to fire so that possibly hundreds can be used in a war. Hope DRDO is working on a "Shourya-lite".

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 23 Jun 2010 09:17

Would it be possible to have a cheap hypersonic Brahmos lite version., that would be first on my list ! A few hundreds of that *will* keep the chinese at bay in any armed conflict.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 23 Jun 2010 10:02

abhik wrote:I think we really need something like this cheap, accurate, ready to fire so that possibly hundreds can be used in a war. Hope DRDO is working on a "Shourya-lite".

there was talk of an AAD S2S derivative called aswin that would be just that, an ATACMS equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RKumar » 23 Jun 2010 16:19

Akash For The Army

The Indian Army has ordered twelve batteries of Akash anti-aircraft missiles. Each Akash battery has three launcher vehicles, a radar vehicle and several support vehicles. Each launcher is self propelled, carrying four missiles, and costs $2.2 million. Each search radar, which can support several batteries, costs $8.7 million. Each battery has a Weapon Guidance radar, which costs $10.9 million each. Each 701 kg/1,543 pound Akash missile has a 60 kg/132 pound warhead, a range of 27 kilometers and can kit targets as high as 15,800 meters/49,000 feet, or as low as 20 meters.


Further it says ... :?:
India wants to build a version of Akash for use on ships, and is already looking into a longer range (60 kilometers) version.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 24 Jun 2010 05:27

^ Most likely to replace Buk-M1 SAM on existing ships and will likely incorporate semi active/active seeker. Will be fired using the existing rail launchers. Also a fall back plan if Barak-8 doesn't work out.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kailash » 30 Jun 2010 13:17

Sagem delivers Sigma 30 systems for Indian rocket launchers

Sagem completed delivery of its Sigma 30 laser-gyro artillery navigation and pointing system to the first two Indian Army regiments to be equipped with the locally-developed Pinaka multiple launch rocket system (MLRS).
...
India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) selected the Sigma 30 system in 2008. The hardware was installed aboard the launch vehicles by the two Indian companies.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 30 Jun 2010 16:49

This has been posted before... New missile interceptor test in end June: DRDO chief
...eagerly awaiting the test.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 30 Jun 2010 20:25

Vril wrote:Brahmos can be deployed and fired a ta very short notice and is a conventional precision weapon. can be used to take out gathering of generals and kernals at GHQ.

Prithvi will take time to fuel and ballistic profile will make sure we have nuclear war at hand.

Vril,
Prithvi is fueled from the factory itself and then sealed. The fuel can remain in place for 10 years as per the manufacturers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2010 20:49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhSHXjou98&NR=1

nag fire from namica. 25 sec flight.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Barretto » 01 Jul 2010 08:32

I have a few questions;

I believe our major detterence to China is from the sea (namely SLBM)
How far off from the mainland do our subs need to be to avoid detction and destruction ?
In my opinion 700km Sagarika is of no use, because we would have to be more away than 700 km to launch an attack.
So the Agni 3000 km slbm is a good answer, but is it enough to cause the Chinks to shiver in their pants ?????
Is it possible that we could launch dormant missiles that lie on the sea bed/ or surface, that can be propelled closer to land and then activated by a radio signal as and when the it is needed, your thoughts please

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 04 Jul 2010 16:51


Kersi D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 04 Jul 2010 20:07

kit wrote:If the Indians are indeed going to phase out the prithvis ., good idea to gift or sell them them to Vietnam and Taiwan .And get some money in the bargain.They would only be happy to have some hundreds of SRBMs for immediate deployment !


Can we not use them up for practise ?

Well if they go too further, we can always say sorry to our neighbours !!!!!!

K

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Jul 2010 20:30

David Siegel wrote:Programme Update: The Indo-French Maitri SR-SAM

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/programme-update-indo-french-maitri-sr.html


The missile look to me like MBDA VL Mica , is this a JV project to customise mica for our need ?


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