Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Nov 2011 12:44

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby suryag » 15 Nov 2011 12:50

Agni-4 looks like a certain Ms.Bendre i am crazy about. What is the maroon part ? is it the second stage ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby adityadange » 15 Nov 2011 12:56

i dont see any fins as in agni-2. neither to the RV nor at the bottom. also there is no separator between 2 stages.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby hulaku » 15 Nov 2011 12:57


Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Nov 2011 13:02

hulaku wrote:Another pic

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9GGurO ... r_embedded


The video has been taken with a superb camera and a superb zoom lens, it is able to track a missile and warhead which crosses the clouds within a few secs for 2 minutes. That should be easily a few 100Ks up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Nov 2011 13:14

hulaku wrote:Another pic

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9GGurO ... r_embedded



This is old picture of the failed test that took place last year

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 13:15

broadcast tv cameras and movie industry cams do have superb optics and zoom.

my onlee nitpick in typical desi style - the base of the firing platform is around 15ft off the ground. thats very high and makes the TELAR longer than absolutely needed.

if we see df21 and other deployed IRBMs, the base of tube is minimally off the ground, making the TELAR more compact.

maybe they can tune the launch arm design for better efficiency inshallah.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Nov 2011 13:17


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 15 Nov 2011 13:22

Aditya_V wrote:The video has been taken with a superb camera and a superb zoom lens, it is able to track a missile and warhead which crosses the clouds within a few secs for 2 minutes. That should be easily a few 100Ks up.

Congratulations, ASL!

Yes, the tracking was much better and the video crisp, like going from analog to digital. This is one IRBM in a hurry to reach 3000 km!

In one year we have transitioned from

to

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 15 Nov 2011 13:36

The caaws of the scared crows between 1:30-1:35 is music to my ears. :mrgreen:

Like Ramius says in the hunt for the red october --> "World trembles at the sound of our rocket engines..."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prabu » 15 Nov 2011 13:41

Congradulations Team India Scientists ! Let us get AGNI V and ultimately SURYA , which will give 360 degree protection and even make P5's to think 10 times before they dare to even dream any thing against India ! :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Nov 2011 14:13

Even according to DRDO the designed range is 3500 kms for Agni-IV.

By the way don't forget to check the trajectory tracking video which has also been released by DRDO.

Apogee is at 878 kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 15 Nov 2011 14:17

Hey I agree it looks like Ms Bendre :-)

As it doesn't have fins lets canisterize it :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Neela » 15 Nov 2011 14:18


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Nov 2011 14:22

DRDO press release via email


INDIA LAUNCHES NEW GENERATION STRATEGIC MISSILE AGNI 4

India today successfully test fired the most advanced long range missile system Agni-4 today i.e. 15th November 2011. The missile was launched from a Road Mobile System at 9.00AM from Wheelers’ Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile followed its trajectory, in a text book fashion, attained a height of about 900kms and reached the pre-designated target in the international waters of Bay of Bengal. All mission objectives were fully met. All the systems functioned perfectly till the end encountering the re-entry temperatures of more than 3000⁰C.

This missile is one of its kinds, proving many new technologies for the first time, and represents a quantum leap in terms of missile technology. The Missile is lighter in weight and has two stages of Solid Propulsion and a Payload with Re-entry heat shield. The Composite Rocket Motor which has been used for the first time has given excellent performance. The Missile System is equipped with modern and compact Avionics with Redundancy to provide high level of reliability. The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time. The high performance onboard computer with distributed Avionics architecture, high speed reliable communication bus and a full Digital Control System have controlled and guided the Missile to the target. The Missile has reached the target with very high level of accuracy. Radars and electro-optical systems along the Coast of Odisha have tracked and monitored all the parameters of the Missile. Two Indian Naval ships located near the target have witnessed the final event.

Honb’le Raksha Mantri Shri A.K. Antony congratulated the DRDO team on its achievement. Dr Vijay Kumar Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri, Secretary, Department of Defence R&D and Director General DRDO, who witnessed the launch, congratulated all the Scientists and employees of DRDO and the Armed forces for the successful launch of AGNI-4. Sri Avinash Chander, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Controller (Missiles & Strategic Systems), DRDO and Programme Director, AGNI while addressing the Scientists after the launch called it as a new era in the modern Long Range Navigation System in India. He said, “this test has paved the way ahead for the success of AGNI-5 Mission, which will be launched shortly”.
Smt. Tessy Thomas, Project Director AGNI-4 and her team prepared and integrated the Missile System and launched the Missile successfully. In a jubilant tone she said that the DRDO has produced and proven many new state of the art technologies in the Missile System like Composite Rocket Motors, very high accuracy Ring Laser Gyro based Inertial Navigation System, Micro Navigation System, Digital Controller System and very powerful onboard computer system. The Missile having capability to carry Strategic Warheads for the Forces and has provided a fantastic deterrence to the country and it will be produced in numbers and delivered to the Armed Forces as early as possible.

Sri S.K. Ray, Director RCI, Sri P. Venugopalan, Director DRDL, Dr V.G. Sekaran Director ASL, Sri S.P. Dash Director ITR were present during the launch and reviewed all the activities.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Nov 2011 14:31

Chicom will probably back off now. whether 20 or 125, the kind of accuracy being talked about should deter those within range. But for full deterrence an IGNSS ( with G for global) is required. See what a GPS really does is to correct the accumulated errors of the INS and once you have global coverage this whole 1 MT versus phooljhari debate becomes meaningless.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 15 Nov 2011 15:04

Neela wrote:

Thank you Neela. This video plays with a 1:5 time scale, i.e. 1 second of video time = 5 seconds of flight time.

At first I wondered what was so remarkable about the demonstration of a perfect parabola. Then I read D Roy's post and realised that this perfect parabola spans 3000 km. :eek:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2011 15:30

Singha wrote:> DRDO is now planning to test launch Agni - V by the end of the year, Dr. Saraswat said.

it looks like shift of A5 date to Feb2012 was a hedge against some A2P system not performing upto the mark. with the launch successful, we are back on original schedule.

above is a direct quote from the chief himself, not a 'unnamed source'

There are a lot of common systems between Agni-IV & V. The successful flight has validated these systems and that assures these same systems in Agni-V. Any malfunction in these systems would have led to failure analysis before going ahead with Agni-V, and the consequent delay.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 15:59

[a] at 50km height off target the graph stops? is it because the heat plasma building around nose blocks the telemetry?
[b] if the elliptical trajectory were shifted to a 45' one with lower apogee is that how the max range is 3500km? would the impact speed be less?
[c] at what heights do the 1st , 2nd stages burn out?
[d] is the RV motor burning all the way or a pulsed burn which imparts the final dive velocity and cuts out?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2011 16:13

PratikDas wrote:This is one IRBM in a hurry to reach 3000 km!



:lol: Exactly the thought I had. Looked like it just wanted to finish the delivery and go home

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 17:39

from shiv aroor livefist:- smells like the A4 guidance pkg with minor or no change will guide the A5. what exactly is the MINGS to be redundant with RLG-INS is no explained.

DRDO Statement: India today successfully test fired its most advanced long range missile system, the Agni-IV. The missile was launched from a road mobile launcher at 9AM from Wheelers’ Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile followed its trajectory, attained a height of about 900-km and reached the pre-designated target in international waters of the Bay of Bengal. All mission objectives were fully met. All systems functioned perfectly till the end encountering re-entry temperatures of more than 3000⁰C.

This missile is one of its kind, proving many new technologies for the first time, and represents a quantum leap in terms of missile technology. The missile is lighter in weight and has two stages of solid propulsion and a payload with re-entry heat shield. The composite rocket motor which has been used for the first time performed flawlessly. The missile system is equipped with modern and compact avionics with redundancy to provide a high level of reliability. The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and micro-navigation system (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time. The high performance onboard computer with distributed avionics architecture, high speed reliable communication bus and a full Digital Control System controlled and guided the Agni-IV to the target. The missile has reached the target with very high level of accuracy. Radars and electro-optical systems along the coast of Odisha tracked and monitored all parameters of the missile test. Two Indian Naval ships located near the target witnessed and recorded the final event.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony congratulated the DRDO team on its achievement. Avinash Chander, Distinguished Scientist & Chief Controller (Missiles & Strategic Systems) at DRDO and Programme Director, AGNI addressed his team after the launch, and called today's test the beginning of "a new era in modern Long Range Navigation Systems". He said, “this test has paved the way ahead for the success of AGNI-5 Mission, which will be launched shortly."

Agni-IV Project Director Ms Tessy Thomas and her team prepared and integrated the missile system and launched the Agni-IV successfully today. An ecstatic Ms Thomas said today that the DRDO had produced and proven many new state of the art technologies with the Agni-IV like composite rocket motors, very high accuracy Ring Laser Gyro based Inertial Navigation System, Micro Navigation System, Digital Controller System and very powerful onboard computer system. The Agni-IV can deliver strategic warheads, and will be produced in large numbers for delivery to India's nuclear command.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 15 Nov 2011 17:44

^^ MINGS : MEMS based INS+GPS+GLONASS+Magnetometer guidance system. Since it is MEMS based it is addressed as Micro Navigation system.

The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and micro-navigation system (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 15 Nov 2011 18:04

ramana wrote:Kanson, All those Prithvi payloads are submunitions type.

Does that mean
- The cluster bomb technology is now masterd by DRDO?
- Also is the role away from delvering unitary payload? There was mention of unitary payload and FAE version
- And does submunitions mean the accuracy issue is still there?

Bigger question does this mean the Prithvi is finally a TBM for Corps use?

ramana sir, pre-frag warhead listed is of unitary type. Current trend is submunitions which offers more role to play and effective. Mastery? we are progressing, increasing our proficiency day by day. In recent tests, Prithvi accuracy is noted as Zero CEP. It was in tactical role before 2004 as it is only option available; post that lot of developments happened. A logical guess is those tactical prithvi missiles are retained while new ones are strategic. There is mid life upgrade reported by Frontier India. FAE option was considered for future. Not much happened. As the current role is bit more towards strategic.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 15 Nov 2011 18:34

^ Yes, exactly.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby merlin » 15 Nov 2011 19:14

Kanson wrote:^^ MINGS : MEMS based INS+GPS+GLONASS+Magnetometer guidance system. Since it is MEMS based it is addressed as Micro Navigation system.

The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and micro-navigation system (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time.


Source?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 19:14

if this MEMS guidance pkg is small, would like to propose a JPM - Joint pinprick missile for the IAF and IN.

- Astra airframe
- 100km range when launched at 40,000ft @ Mach1 , 70km when launched from subsonic or lower altitude
- HE-frag warhead
- Mach4 terminal speed
- IIR + Glonass seeker

the idea is while ARMs and fatter missiles like brahmos could target the main C4I centers , radar sites, a shower of these relatively small and cheap missiles ( a MKI could carry 10, a MRCA could cart 8) launched in salvo fire mode from a flight of 4 birds could absolutely saturate a command complex, airfield, tank park when programmed with the right targets and overwhelm the vshorad/mrsam defences......probably best to launch a shower of these, get the radars and sams to light up and follow it up with proper ARMs and A-brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 15 Nov 2011 19:34

Came across this @wiki:

In May 2008 Indian scientists announced they had developed and patented a path-breaking technology that increases the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.[24] The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium based material to a rocket's blunt nose cone. The material acts as a reactive-ablative coating that forms a thin low density gaseous layer at the tip of the rocket as it approaches hypersonic speeds; this super-heated gas layer reduces drag by 47% (at mach 7-8), thereby allowing range enhancements at least 40%.[25][26] It has been announced that this technology will be incorporated in future Agni deployments after having undergone ranging and calibration tests.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_(missile)

Please excuse pooch from a KG student in missile class:

a) It can increase the range of Brahmos?
b) Can be used in the hypersonic version being envisaged?
c) Did they use this in AGNI IV? :twisted:

Thanks much.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 15 Nov 2011 19:45

merlin wrote:
Kanson wrote:^^ MINGS : MEMS based INS+GPS+GLONASS+Magnetometer guidance system. Since it is MEMS based it is addressed as Micro Navigation system.


Source?


http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/NL_Oct_2011_web.pdf, page 15.

BTW in guidance mode it is flown for the first time, it means it could have flown previously as a parallel passive system for calibration and other purposes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 15 Nov 2011 20:06

rajanb wrote:Came across this @wiki:

In May 2008 Indian scientists announced they had developed and patented a path-breaking technology that increases the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.[24] The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium based material to a rocket's blunt nose cone. The material acts as a reactive-ablative coating that forms a thin low density gaseous layer at the tip of the rocket as it approaches hypersonic speeds; this super-heated gas layer reduces drag by 47% (at mach 7-8), thereby allowing range enhancements at least 40%.[25][26] It has been announced that this technology will be incorporated in future Agni deployments after having undergone ranging and calibration tests.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_(missile)

Please excuse pooch from a KG student in missile class:

a) It can increase the range of Brahmos?
b) Can be used in the hypersonic version being envisaged?
c) Did they use this in AGNI IV? :twisted:

Thanks much.
As claimed in the wiki page, this tech could be effective in hypersonic regime Mach 7-8. Yes it can be used in hypersonic version. It can be used in high supersonic but it has to be checked & ranged. As far no explicit claims on Agni. It is a coating which can be applied anytime. Unlikely to be used in the initial trials.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Neela » 15 Nov 2011 20:27

Few questions:
IN the tracking video between 3.00 and 3.25, there are few breaks in the graph? Why is that?

At time 3.19 , the graph displays 2 dots to the left the trajectory plot in what appears to be a stage falling off - does this mean that radars from Odisha coast can track a falling motor stage almost 2000+ km away?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Boudhayan » 15 Nov 2011 20:53

^^^ That is the exact doubt/question that I had on seeing the video for the first time .... any ideas Gurus ??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 20:57

imo at the stage where those dots were shown falling off wouldnt the 2nd stage have long since burnt off. from the peak of curve to target it would only be the RV motor + RV...maybe the RV motor falls off and the heat shield falls away too to expose the real meat inside? no idea how its tracked though...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 15 Nov 2011 21:15

@Kanson Thanks.

Which means and maybe my interpretation is wishful thinking that the AGNI II Prime, maybe the Agni II with this coating = AGNI IV. Thus increasing its range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 15 Nov 2011 21:26

"Bravo!
Congratulations to the DRDO team for this landmark test.
However, we are still lagging behind in missile technology. A mere 3000km range is just like stone-age weapons when compared to 25000km+ range missiles owned by a few countries including but not limited to our hostile neighbor China! I'm afraid that 3000km Agni IV won't be able to cross even the plateau of Tibet if circumstances ask so. "

This is one of the reader responses to the Hindu article about the Agni 4 launch. Is this a common publicly held view? "Mere 3000km" and "stone age weapons". Really, now. Most of the responses have been laudatory, thank goodness.
Some people don't have a good concept of distance. India is not aiming for a 25000km range missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Atri » 15 Nov 2011 21:43

rajanb wrote:Came across this @wiki:

In May 2008 Indian scientists announced they had developed and patented a path-breaking technology that increases the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_(missile)


DO we really patent the technology developed as part of our defense development program? or is it DDM? If yes, in which countries do we maintain our patents? Because patenting involves publishing all the data online. It does not make sense to publish or patent one's defense OR space research.

http://www.domainb.com/aero/space/launc ... ology.html

The scientist confirmed that the technology would be used not only for application on missiles, but also on space vehicles. He said that a patent application for the technology, which was invented six months ago, had already been accepted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sohamn » 15 Nov 2011 22:54

May be they have patatented the usage in civilian roles, may be in the name of ISRO or something. No body cares about military patents, because technology is not divulged.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pkudva » 15 Nov 2011 23:31

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"Bravo!
Congratulations to the DRDO team for this landmark test.
However, we are still lagging behind in missile technology. A mere 3000km range is just like stone-age weapons when compared to 25000km+ range missiles owned by a few countries including but not limited to our hostile neighbor China! I'm afraid that 3000km Agni IV won't be able to cross even the plateau of Tibet if circumstances ask so. "

This is one of the reader responses to the Hindu article about the Agni 4 launch. Is this a common publicly held view? "Mere 3000km" and "stone age weapons". Really, now. Most of the responses have been laudatory, thank goodness.
Some people don't have a good concept of distance. India is not aiming for a 25000km range missile.


Pls note no country in the world makes the actual range public these details are very confidential.

Pls we also need to understand the names given as Agni-3 & Agni-4, i am quiet sure that Agni-3 will have a range more than 3K just by looking at its Dia and size.

Agni-5 will be more, and just not limited to 5K as Govt says...certain diplomatic points are to be maintained when missile development is undertaken!!!

Cheers!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Lisa » 16 Nov 2011 00:07

sohamn wrote:May be they have patatented the usage in civilian roles, may be in the name of ISRO or something. No body cares about military patents, because technology is not divulged.


Secret patents can be filed in the UK, ie although filed information is not
public. HOTOL tech is an example.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2011 00:31

not necessary. secrete deterrence is is needed. demonstrated capability will leap frog us to 6th element in the power sense. besides, we are not here to sell these in a commercial sense unless there is a hypersonic civilian jet is planned. still, we would not have to in the sense, one would need couple of fingers to count the enemy for these technologies.

preserving the secrets are important here.

bravo tessy team!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sawant » 16 Nov 2011 02:25

just wondering.. no stabilizing fins on the missile ? how does it correct its path then...


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