Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2011 20:26

per the same graphical tool, the A3 apogee was only 350km...which is probably typical for IRBMs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lycrNUGTKbQ
note the trajectory used was perfectly ballistic 45' for max range.

the 900km apogee is a bit astonishing and must have been designed to 'tell' those that need to know these things what we have cooked up...in a understated and chankian way.

makes me think the A3 dummy payload could be around 2-3tons :twisted: for such a massive motor (vs A2P) to have so 'weak' a range. I guess it could have a 3 x 500kg MIRV type config and reach out to 5000km .... while the bigger A5 will finally bring MIRV range to 7500km and unitary 800kg range close to 10,000km maybe...

I think its very necessary we load one up with 600kg FBF payload and fire it off to the edge of antarctic ice sheet in a max range type shot. the southern IOR is a big place.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2011 20:43

It(~900km) is high loft trajectory for max range.

Any updates on the terminal accuracy?

- pinpoint etc. etc..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 16 Nov 2011 21:43

Singha Garu , for you
5,000-km range Agni-V to be test-fired in February


the Defence Research and Development Organistaion will launch the 5,000-km version of the nuclear capable missile after three months as part of strengthening India’s deterrence capabilities.

“Agni-V is presently undergoing integration and we may test fire it by the end of February next year. It is right on schedule and the successful test of Agni-IV will prove to be a building block in development of this missile,” DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat said in New Delhi on Wednesday.

Addressing a press conference, Mr. Saraswat talked about India’s missiles programme and developing effective deterrence capability against adversaries.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2011 22:42

there was a bbc one liner that we have not yet signed the npt again... sounds like dragon killer is actually the dinosaur killer now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sawant » 17 Nov 2011 00:23

VinayG wrote:
Like all ballistic missiles, example the old Polaris missiles and the current Trident missiles use internal gyros for stability in flight. so Agni dosent need any stabilizing fins on the missile

more detailed information about missiles

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 10_ch9.pdf

How Things Work: Ring Laser Gyros


http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today ... c=y&page=1


Thanks VinayG for the info... Yeah I thought it would have to do with nozzles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 17 Nov 2011 00:29

Singha wrote:per the same graphical tool, the A3 apogee was only 350km...which is probably typical for IRBMs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lycrNUGTKbQ
note the trajectory used was perfectly ballistic 45' for max range.

the 900km apogee is a bit astonishing and must have been designed to 'tell' those that need to know these things what we have cooked up...in a understated and chankian way.


Yup. Same thoughts here. It also shows the missile efficiency and accuracy to miss known space debris in that range (Typical sun-synchronous orbits are about 600–800 km in altitude) :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 01:21

The indigenous ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time


so, ramana, it could be that MINGS was supplement here.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2011 02:54

One major improvement in the stage separation I can see is the old vented truss system is not there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Nov 2011 02:55

http://www.sify.com/finance/agni-iv-pro ... fdcbe.html

2011-11-16 20:50:00
New Delhi, Nov 16 (IANS) India, which successfully tested the new generation Agni-IV medium-range ballistic missile Tuesday, will carry out further tests of the weapon system till 2013 to ensure it is ready for production by 2014, defence scientists said here Wednesday.
They also pointed out that Agni-IV was the first ever missle test by India that soared over 3,000-km range and 'beyond the equator' to the southern hemisphere.
Avinash Chander of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told reporters that the test phase for the Agni-IV missile will be completed in 2012 with repeatable tests and user-trials in 2013 before it goes for production.
He said this will be the shortest time between development and production stages of the missile.
Asked if Agni-IV will leave the 2,000-km-range Agni-II and 3,000-km-range Agni-III redundant, DRDO Director General V.K. Saraswat said each of these missiles had their own unique use for the armed forces and hence would co-exist as operational weapon systems of the armed forces.
Avinash Chander said Agni-II would be for the Western sector. Sarawat noted that India's security needs of these ballistic missiles were limited and hence deployment will be restricted to certain sectors for each of the Agni-series missiles.
Saraswat also pointed out that there was a difference between Agni-III and Agni-IV. The latter was a much smaller in size but had higher accuracy. Agni-IV had a 'pencil-like' look and accelerated much more than Agni-III.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 17 Nov 2011 02:57

karan_mc wrote:Lot of missile test a head , next three months Nirbhay , Barak-2 , Agni-V . and in 2012 Brahmos air launched , Astra to be air launched , exciting year a head for Missile technology for India


Add a successful Endo/Exo ABM Test and this jingo will wish for nothing more in 2012 (Till Q1 that is) :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Nov 2011 02:59

>>And no way a II could be uprated to a IV.
No way, sir.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Nov 2011 03:08

http://business-standard.com/india/news ... al/455781/


DRDO plans early entry of Agni-4 into arsenal

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi November 17, 2011, 0:42 IST


A day after the successful launch of the Defence R&D Organisation’s all-new Agni-4 ballistic missile, a triumphant DRDO chief proclaimed it as good as America’s Pershing-II missiles; and declared that India’s missile arsenal could no longer be constrained by technology denial sanctions

Highlighting the capability of the Agni-4, V K Saraswat, DRDO head, told the media here that this 20-tonne missile could deliver a one-tonne warhead to a distance of 3,500 km, significantly further than the 3,000 kilometres range of the much heavier, 48-tonne Agni-3 missile. Saraswat listed the multiple technological breakthroughs that had permitted this feat — composite rocket motors; a state-of-the-art navigation system and control systems that were both lighter and better.

Asked by Business Standard whether the Agni-4 was qualitatively in the class of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles (the Shaheen and the Ghauri), Saraswat responded, “Agni-4 compares with what is available (globally) in its class of missiles like the Pershing (US missile)… I am talking in terms of technology, not in terms of range, as Pershing missiles have a higher range… they meet global standards.”

Saraswat may have mixed his facts, since Pershing II, the US ballistic missile he likened the Agni-4 to, is a decommissioned 1980s missile with a range of just 1,800 kilometres. But his claim, as evident from his other remarks, was that the Agni-4 met global benchmarks.

Saraswat also explained that the Agni-4 represented the final defeat of the technology denial regime that the West imposed on India from 1974 onwards. India, he said, could no longer be blocked from developing a world-class nuclear deterrent.

“No technology control regimes can stop us from making missiles in this class. We need to thank the technology sanctions for enforcing upon us a degree of self-reliance where we no longer need imports,” said Saraswat.

The DRDO chief praised a range of Indian entities for defeating western sanctions. Defence PSU, MIDHANI developed “maraging steel” for missile components; Kerala Minerals and Metals Ltd (KMML) produces 500 tonnes per year of badly needed titanium; the blockage on Indian imports of composite carbon fibre — essential for the Agni’s heat-resistant nose cone — was defeated. “We have made our own carbon fibre which is better than anything that is available from those foreign countries”, said Saraswat.

The DRDO plans to quickly bring the Agni-4 into military service. “We hope to complete the test phase (two launches) in 2012; the user phase (two launches) in 2013; and in 2014 we would offer it for service. We have dramatically shortened the time from development to service,” said the DRDO’s missile controller, Avinash Chander.

Indian nuclear specialists worry that, although advanced simulation capabilities have reduced the requirement of actual test launches, there is a haste to introduce inadequately tested missiles into the Indian arsenal. { Nuclear specialists worry about missiles? Who are those? }

“In earlier times, missiles like the Pershing were fired dozens of times before being brought into service. Even on Wednesday, at least three to five launches are needed to verify that Agni-4’s performance can be replicated in various conditions. Only then should user trials commence,” says deterrence expert, Brigadier (retired) V K Nair. { Ok, this is the Deterrence expert who became nuclear specialist in earlier para. }

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Nov 2011 03:11

http://www.ddinews.gov.in/Current+Affairs/manmohan.htm

"The trial was fully successful. All mission objectives were fully met. All the systems functioned perfectly till the end encountering the re-entry temperatures of more than 3000 degree C," Gupta said.


The composite rocket motor was used for the first time and gave excellent performance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Nov 2011 03:12

ramana wrote:
Any updates on the terminal accuracy?

- pinpoint etc. etc..
Still not a word on accuracy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 03:14

I think, given scope, it is always good to test from a user's perspective.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2011 03:49

I have over the years given a lot of thought to the low number of tests needed to operatonalise vehicles. I think the key is large number of measurements during the test flights and the ample design margin. What I mean here is if 400V are enough to do something then the driver ckt should deliver 600 V min. If during the test flights the vehicle parameters are nominal with hardly a variation except for noise in the instrument system then its OK.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2011 03:51

From the Sify report above:

Saraswat also pointed out that there was a difference between Agni-III and Agni-IV. The latter was a much smaller in size but had higher accuracy.


So better than AIII.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 03:57

The key in the number of test should be measured by the quality of tests - from measurements, constraints, environment, range, accuracy, performance, to various user specific aspects including deploy-ability, launchers, controls, etc. So, quite a lot of stuffs in testing.

If QC passes, then why not reduce the number of tests. Of course, if lot of similar components are there, which is already tested, then only those tests comes down. Overall, the system tests need to happen.

As a developer of systems, one is more oriented towards developer rather user.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pogula » 17 Nov 2011 04:27

Kanson wrote:Bulava missile took some where around 30 minutes or more to cover a range of 8000+ km. It reached an apogee of around 1000 km.


I am still fixated on Range vs. Time here.
Bulava took 30 minutes to cover 8000 Km with an apogee of 1000 Km as compared to our A4 that took 20 minutes to cover 3000 Km with an apogee of almost 900 Km.

1. Why such steep launch?
2. Why so slow? --> Indicates either a much heavier payload than advertised, or a very low (horrible) Ballistic Coefficient of the airframe.

Any Mechanical/Civil/Aeronautical pundits on BRF guesstimate the potential range A4 could achieve if the trajectory parameters are changed (launch angle, apogee and such)?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 17 Nov 2011 05:36

^ some basic calc... forgot my projectile math learned in 11th grade :((

Didn't include the curve but treated the projectile path as a triangle...

Bulova
4000 x 4000 = 16000000 Square of half range
16000000 + 1000000 square of altitude = 17000000
√ (17000000) = 4123.10562561766 diagonal distance travelled
4123.10562561766 ÷ 15 half time 30 mins= 274.873708374511 velocity KMs

Agni IV
900 x 900 = 810000 square of altitude
810000 + 9000000 square of half range = 9810000
√ (9810000) = 3132.09195267316 diagonal distance travelled
3132.09195267316 ÷ 10 half time 20 mins = 313.209195267316 velocity KMs

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pogula » 17 Nov 2011 06:13

RamaY wrote:^ some basic calc... forgot my projectile math learned in 11th grade :((

Didn't include the curve but treated the projectile path as a triangle...


I don't blame you. :) I had to dust off my Engineering Dynamics book and read up a bit.
Unfortunately, the book does not deal with self-propelled projectiles, and the usual projectile math won't work on a self-propelled body due to the acceleration vector and zero initial velocity added into the mix.

I will sit down and work on this challenge over this weekend 8)

But, your math is very confusing as to how it fits (even roughly) into calculating the average velocity of the missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 17 Nov 2011 07:25

I was trying to calculate the diagonal in a right angled triangle and calculate the average velocity...

Apogee squared + Half range squared (on the ground) = square of missile travelled in half the time.

I didn't take the missile curve and earth's curvature into account.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 17 Nov 2011 09:12

Kanson wrote:
The composite rocket motor was used for the first time and gave excellent performance.
This clearly indicates a new family of missiles unlike A1, 2 or 3. I believe by 2020, the 00's developed missiles will be replaced by 10's developed missiles
Prithvi -> Prahaar
A1 -> Shourya
A2 -> A4
A3 -> A5

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2011 10:15

Also interesting the 800kg payload. Each Agni version had its own payload. Could mean repackaging or more efficient packages.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 17 Nov 2011 10:18

[/quote]This clearly indicates a new family of missiles unlike A1, 2 or 3. I believe by 2020, the 00's developed missiles will be replaced by 10's developed missiles
Prithvi -> Prahaar
A1 -> Shourya
A2 -> A4
A3 -> A5[/quote]


I will say:-

Prithvi 150-350km-> Prahaar/Brahmos 300-1000km
A1 1000-1500km-> Shourya 2000-3000km
A2 3000-5000km-> A4 6000-8000km
A3 5000-7000-> A5 8000-12000km + MIRV
Last edited by vic on 17 Nov 2011 12:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 10:36

Wondering if we can have one common standard system only differentiated by stages.

3 stages - >8k wala
2 stages - >3.5k wala
1 stage - <3.5k wala

/ballistics only

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2011 12:58

From the Business Standard Article:

Highlighting the capability of the Agni-4, Dr VK Saraswat, the DRDO head, told the media in New Delhi that this 20-tonne missile could deliver a one-tonne warhead to a distance of 3,500 kilometres, significantly further than the 3,000 kilometres range of the much heavier, 48-tonne Agni-3 missile. Saraswat listed out multiple technological breakthroughs that had permitted this feat: composite rocket motors; a state-of-the-art navigation system and control systems that were both lighter and better


The bolded part is simply phenomenal.

This also means that A3, along with A2 will be on its way out over as the production of A4 gathers speed and they start entering the service. A1 amy make the way for Shourya and Nirbhay. So, we are talking about Prahaar-->Brahmos-->Shourya--->Nirbhay------->A4--->A5.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Nov 2011 13:07

rohitvats wrote:From the Business Standard Article:

Highlighting the capability of the Agni-4, Dr VK Saraswat, the DRDO head, told the media in New Delhi that this 20-tonne missile could deliver a one-tonne warhead to a distance of 3,500 kilometres, significantly further than the 3,000 kilometres range of the much heavier, 48-tonne Agni-3 missile. Saraswat listed out multiple technological breakthroughs that had permitted this feat: composite rocket motors; a state-of-the-art navigation system and control systems that were both lighter and better


The bolded part is simply phenomenal.

This also means that A3, along with A2 will be on its way out over as the production of A4 gathers speed and they start entering the service. A1 amy make the way for Shourya and Nirbhay. So, we are talking about Prahaar-->Brahmos-->Shourya--->Nirbhay------->A4--->A5.


But I think A-3 delivers with a 1.5 tonne payload, so we might need to keep this as a weapon that delivers megaton Nukes to China's industrial heartland if conflicts escalate to where Nukes are used and Big Indian cities are attacked with Nukes.

A situation none of us wants but need to prepare for.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sohamn » 17 Nov 2011 13:17

now one good thing about Agni 4 is that there is no Grill between two stages. That cuts down on the length of the missile and drag while in boost phase. I wonder if they are going to incorporate these changes to Agni 3 as well.

Can someone throw some light as to why did we have that Grill between stages in the previous generation of the missiles. I haven't seen the grill in any western missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhinavjo » 17 Nov 2011 13:21

sohamn wrote:Can someone throw some light as to why did we have that Grill between stages in the previous generation of the missiles. I haven't seen the grill in any western missiles.

I'm guessing some issues with Stage I-Stage II separation

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 17 Nov 2011 13:31

The 'grill' between the motor stages is for venting the rocket exhaust during separation. Having grill design gives you margin during separation. Or else you need to focus on other aspects of separation;quicker ignition etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sohamn » 17 Nov 2011 13:42

krishnan wrote:
The 'grill' between the motor stages is for venting the rocket exhaust during separation. Having grill design gives you margin during separation. Or else you need to focus on other aspects of separation;quicker ignition etc.

I was thinking of the following design:
a) A ring that binds two stages
b) 2nd stage rocket ignites a second after stage seperation

In a laymans terms it seems the common sense. But DRDO must have hit a roadblock and hence they came up with the Grill. Wonder what exactly the roadblock could be?

Now without the Grill -
a) u can make it an sub-missile
b) better boost speed and reduced drag
c) lesser weight and length

Only adv of Grill is that scientists could hang some chicken and when the rocket splashes in bay of bengal the navy could enjoy some overcooked grilled chicken :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Nov 2011 13:56

sohamn wrote:Can someone throw some light as to why did we have that Grill between stages in the previous generation of the missiles. I haven't seen the grill in any western missiles.
'

They start the second stage seconds before the first stage stops , this gives the second stage enough energy to move on in laymans term , without hitting the first stage that continues to accelerate for some time due to inertia.

Without grill you would need a slightly complicated approach towards stage seperation e.g using retro rocket or some other approach.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2011 13:57

A3 is a different ballgame than A4. it is our 1st heavy ICBM and precursor to the A5.

it is needed for MIRV delivery. neither the A2 or A4 have the volume and throw weight for a good complement of nukes.

the right mix will be a mix of A4, A3, A5 eventually, but things are moving fast because we do not have a huge prior inventory to maintain.....it will be some time before we stabilize around a 'standard' landmark design like the M51, Topol family and Minuteman family.......

in the future as we catch up and attain the sophistication of the best ICBMs, we will likely retain just A1++/Shorya++ for 1000km range , n-tipped Nirbhay version and just a single 50t MIRV ICBM road and rail mobile common design...A7 or whatever its going to be called.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 17 Nov 2011 14:00

AoA indeed; but 'ye dil mange more'. A-10 with MIRV is what we need, after all even we would like to contribute to this noble cause of bringing democracy to the so called uncivilized world, need to lessen that burden off the shoulders of budhau Unkil. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2011 14:13

all in good time biraders. we have our list of to-do's and giving the burhau a shove to the retirement community is at #30, well behind being a economic supapawa and capturing all his treasure of knalege first. we have a long list of much badder guys to deal with first.

meantime, there is some speculation that our SLBMs will have a BGRV at the nose , to extend the range of final stage hugely and make it very tough for ABM systems to plan an intercept once the missile is detected at edge of space.
imagine this pic with a detaching shroud over the actual vehicle.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ooster.jpg

some say the Rus tested this using a Topol that flew in depressed trajectory and then released a high-hypersonic BGRV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Dilbu » 17 Nov 2011 14:21

'Agni Putri' Tessy Thomas breaks glass ceiling
NEW DELHI: Tessy Thomas can take a bow as 'Agni Putri', or the daughter of fire, proving as she has her mettle as the project director of the 3,500-km new-generation Agni-IV missile that was successfully tested on Tuesday.

Having systematically broken gender barriers in the decidedly male preserve of strategic weapons and nuclear-capable ballistic missiles over the last two decades, does she still feel out of place? "No, not at all. Science has no gender. I have five-six women working in my team," the 48-year-old DRDO scientist told TOI.

A B.Tech from Thrissur Engineering College, Kozhikode, and M.Tech from Pune-based Defence Institute of Advanced Technologies, she was selected for "a guided-weapon course" being offered by DRDO. Her missile sage began soon after.

"Dr A P J Kalam was my original guru. He was my director. I have been with the Agni programme since 1988...I have designed the guidance programmes for all the Agni missiles," she said. From the original "missile man" to the new "missile woman", things have indeed come full circle.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 17 Nov 2011 14:27

I think only the 2nd (red) stage has a composite motor case now. The next step will actually be to have a composite case for the first stage as well.
Manufacturing Technology for Filament Winding Large
Solid Rocket Motor Cases: 1960-65

Early Minuteman motor cases were constructed of steel and
titanium. Research was aimed at replacing the Minuteman II
(MM II) second stage metal motor cases with lighter-weight
fiberglass filament-wound cases. Although the MM II system
program office (SPO) did not adopt this technology, the work
provided experience and confidence; which eventually led to
the introduction of a composite third stage motor in the
Minuteman III, and composites in all three stages of the
Peacekeeper
.
Image
Source: Tarmak007
Last edited by PratikDas on 17 Nov 2011 14:47, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 17 Nov 2011 14:30

sohamn wrote:Only adv of Grill is that scientists could hang some chicken and when the rocket splashes in bay of bengal the navy could enjoy some overcooked grilled chicken :D


Overcooked soaked grill chicken

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby arijitkm » 17 Nov 2011 14:56

RamaY wrote:^ some basic calc... forgot my projectile math learned in 11th grade :((

Didn't include the curve but treated the projectile path as a triangle...

Bulova
4000 x 4000 = 16000000 Square of half range
16000000 + 1000000 square of altitude = 17000000
√ (17000000) = 4123.10562561766 diagonal distance travelled
4123.10562561766 ÷ 15 half time 30 mins= 274.873708374511 velocity KMs

Agni IV
900 x 900 = 810000 square of altitude
810000 + 9000000 square of half range = 9810000
√ (9810000) = 3132.09195267316 diagonal distance travelled
3132.09195267316 ÷ 10 half time 20 mins = 313.209195267316 velocity KMs


Sirji, as per your logic the velocity of Agni IV is
174.928556845359 / kms

Agni IV
1500 x 1500 = 2250000 sq. km. (half of the dist.)
900 x 900 = 810000 sq. km. (altitude)
----------------
3060000 sq. km.
√ (3060000) = 1749.28556845359 km. diagonal distance
travelled
1749.28556845359 km. / 10 mins. = 174.928556845359 km.



arijitkm


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