Nonlethal weapons

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 20:07

I start this topic hoping that people can bring out the uses, abuses advantages and disadvantages of non lethal weapons.

India is facing a situation today when a tube light has suddenly come on and it has been realised that nonlethal weapons may be needed for crowd control. It just does not do to scale up from lathis to bullets - a crowd control tactic that has come down to us from the Brits during the independence movement. The rest of the world has moved on. We have not.

Two factors play in my mind. One is the statement that non lethal weapons will have to be urgently introduced into Kashmir. And the second was the question by Hari Nair in the LCH thread about ideas for non lethal weapons.

Of course Google uncle will give you a list. First - "non lethal" is a relative term. A few will get killed over time.

I know that Indian police use tear gas and water cannon. Tear gas probably is dependent on wind direction and perhaps it tends to get thrown back. Perhaps water cannot is too short ranged and ineffective for violet crowds armed with stones. Mind you this is my speculation and anyone who knows better - please give gyan.

The Brits introduced Rubber bullets into Northern Ireland. I am not sure how non lethal those will be. They also used plastic bullets.

There was a news item about a Bhoot Jalokia grenade. I don't know if it was merely an idea, but apparently US forces have used chilli pellets. Again I have no idea of efficacy. This has been criticised by human rights groups as "torture"

Apart from this there are reports of bean bag pellets, sound waves that incapacitate people, and the recently linked video on BR of microwaves that make it too hot for a person to stand under its radiation. Was this used in Afghanistan and then withdrawn?

Just to get the brain cells whirring and add some color - I will link a photo of a water cannon made by DRDO in use: (I hope everyone can see the image. I can)

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Sep 2010 20:19

Shiv sir,
I remember seeing a show on a Channel, History Channel if i am right, sometime back where the cops who used these equipments called it Less Lethal Weapons... And i also remember a cop saying that the pepper pellets were quite effective against all but the most determined protester, in which case force might be needed anyways...

Also an Idea, i recall that in US companies that give normal citizens a feel of SWAT action used bullets that were tipped with a relatively hardened coloured plasticine... We can use them effectively in Kashmir situation... The impact of the bullet is powerful enough to cause a severe welt and has zero penetrating power... so no chance of any fatalities...
Just my 2 cents...

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 07 Sep 2010 20:26

Has laughing gas ever been seriously considered as a method for riot control?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 07 Sep 2010 20:28

What about tranqualizing darts that are used to subdue wild animals. If they work on Forest animals surely they would work on SDRE animals too for whom destruction of public property is not a big deal.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Sep 2010 20:31

Taser.

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... y3kUXzR1Uw

A Taser is an electroshock weapon that uses electrical current to disrupt voluntary control of muscles. Its manufacturer, Taser International, calls the effects "neuromuscular incapacitation"[1] and the devices' mechanism "Electro-Muscular Disruption (EMD) technology".[2] Someone struck by a Taser experiences stimulation of his or her sensory nerves and motor nerves, resulting in strong involuntary muscle contractions. Tasers do not rely only on pain compliance, except when used in Drive Stun mode, and are thus preferred by some law enforcement over non-Taser stun guns and other electronic control weapons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 20:45

Laughing gas has a strong sickly sweet odor and you have to inhale a lot of that before anything happens.

Yes - I forgot to mention Tasers - but aren't they one-on-one devices?

Microwave heat beam
Video 1 (boring except for last 5 sec)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoK3ung31eY

Another - beam makes reporter jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RewekVjO52M

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 07 Sep 2010 20:56

How about stone-pellting Gun which shoots rapidly in quick succession?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Sep 2010 21:04

Tear gas shells can cause serious injury or death in case of direct hit on body. Sometimes the shell just explodes instead of leaking out the gas slowly.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 07 Sep 2010 21:19

how about just spraying some kind of glue? Should make the clothes stick to the guy standing next to you, make the slippers stick to the road, make the skin stick to everything, make the stones stick to the hand.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 07 Sep 2010 21:37

The police in J&K use slingshots to give protesters a taste of their own medicine. Not strictly "non- lethal", but yeah, it is effective enough. An old HT report had said that many protesters were now scared to join the stone pelting mobs.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 21:56

atreya wrote:The police in J&K use slingshots to give protesters a taste of their own medicine. Not strictly "non- lethal", but yeah, it is effective enough. An old HT report had said that many protesters were now scared to join the stone pelting mobs.

Good point! I recall that. A great idea! I was a crack-shot with a slingshot when I was a boy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 21:59

ManjaM wrote:how about just spraying some kind of glue? Should make the clothes stick to the guy standing next to you, make the slippers stick to the road, make the skin stick to everything, make the stones stick to the hand.

Tar? I wonder if spraying raw sewage would work?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Sep 2010 22:00

Don't know about any kind of glue, but there is a foam available which covers the person and makes him immobile.

Sling shots! Seriously ??

Although I've seen 1-2 pictures of J&K policemen with sling shots, but I don't think it offers any big advantage. Non-lethal bullets, chili grenade kind of stuff will cause more fear and panic.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 07 Sep 2010 22:41

Jamwal, it is not advantageous in dispersing a riot. But it does put the fear of SDRE in the stone pelters, thus lowering the number of people the next day. They do get serious injuries. One of the stone pelters told HT that he almost lost an eye

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 07 Sep 2010 23:31

The Best Nonlethal weapon is Ahimsa, and Gandhi ji defeated British, nearly won over the brutal South African regime. Even the African National Congress (ANC) adopted the same technique. Martin Luther King Jr did that too.

Proven effective and easy.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Sep 2010 01:02

B B Guns and Frozen Paint balls guns are a great way to control crowds... Not one dies, yet everyone leaves with bruises

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 08 Sep 2010 03:44

ShivaS wrote: Proven effective and easy.

Not by a long shot. Elaborating on this would be OT.

How about bleaching powder in liquid wax (hot wax at around 140 degrees) dispersed using a cannon technology? Will scald and burn the skin and is effective for protester size of about 500. Chlorine is formed on contact with body fluids such as sweat, tears and mucus, chlorine will also cause skin rash and allergy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2010 06:40

From IDSA
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/Nonleth ... ele_030910

It is important to note that non-lethal ways of mob control by security agencies is already in practice in the Kashmir Valley for many years though in a limited form. Unfortunately these methods were not advertised properly. The use of tear gas shells, rubber/plastic bullets and at times firing in the air are all non-lethal ways of mob dispersion. Such practices have been in use for many years but were never properly articulated at the highest level. Now, with the Prime Minister articulating the need for non-lethal ways, the security agencies should start looking for many such options.

Non-lethal weapons (NLWs) are weapons designed to reduce the loss of human life and to a certain extent loss of property as well as loss of life among security personnel themselves. They are essentially used in counter-personnel and crowed control roles. This is achieved mainly by incapacitating individuals. Various techniques involving the release of chemicals, light rays, generation of electromagnetic signals, sound waves, etc. could be used for this purpose. There are weapons available which could discharge a jolt of electric current to temporarily immobilize the demonstrator so that he/she could be arrested without causing any physical harm. One of the basic purposes of using non-lethal weapons is to stun the target. Weapons such as stun grenades/flash bangs are used to create a blinding flash of light followed by a loud explosion.

Another category of such weapons are designed to disturb and irritate the rioters/terrorists. Weapons like Bright xenon flashlight and Isotropic radiators could be effectively used against groups of terrorists at night. Some laser-based weapons are capable of blinding the enemy momentarily. High power low frequency acoustic beam weapons like Infrasound-acoustic beam can cause nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pains. Pepper balls discharge highly irritating fumes and force gathered mobs to disperse quickly.

<snip>

In Indian context, non-lethal weapons are a relatively new phenomenon. It is important to use such technology very carefully particularly for crowd control. The key challenge for Indian security forces is to maintain some amount of distance from the protesters. Otherwise even a rubber bullet could end up killing a protestor, particularly small children or weak individuals. At times dealing with situations where the life of hundreds of innocent civilians is at stake becomes a difficult task. In the year 2002 around 170 hostages died when Russian authorities had used Fentanyl gas to incapacitate terrorists who had seized a Moscow theatre and took the audience hostage. This incidence had given rise to a debate on the use of non-lethal weapons in such type of situations and its efficacy.

Now, the issue is ‘are Indian security forces geared enough to use such weapons’? Are they adequately equipped and trained to use them? Security forces need to have defensive gear available to protect them while using weapons like gas dispersers. For any country, it is also important to operate with the limits of UN treaty mechanisms while developing and using such weapons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2010 06:42

Marten wrote:
Non-lethal arms should focus on sound -- the types the Japanese whalers use to disable Greepeace activists. There is no option but to leave the area. Even folks with split or broken ear drums cannot withstand the waves. It can be powered by a simple jeep with multiple batteries or by armored vans.

Do you have any more details on this - or a link?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2010 06:57

OK - its called an LRAD - Long Range Acoustic Device.

It weighs 20 kg and presumably can be mounted on a helicopter I guess - no one seems to have tried.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 08 Sep 2010 07:04

Craig Alpert wrote:B B Guns and Frozen Paint balls guns are a great way to control crowds... Not one dies, yet everyone leaves with bruises

Yes and in the paint ball include tear gar or sought instead of paint.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 08 Sep 2010 08:23

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrified_water_cannon

the favoured approach seems to be using sticky glue balls with electric discharge similar to stun guns by way of including 9v batteries

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Sep 2010 10:21

Tasers are one-on-one weapons, so it cannot be used against large crowds. Water cannons with colourful dyes added to the water is an effective tool in identifying people who were part of the crowd (to "deal with them" later). The dyes will not get washed off in a day or two. In Kashmir, i suggest multi-colour dyes. People should know that when they see a man coloured like a peacock, that what he was upto. Since some one pointed out "sling shots" how about a new kind of weapon (crossbows??) which has better range and accuracy than a sling shot? The security forces can reuse the same set of missiles which was hurled at them. Also would leave the rioters (and their media sympathisers) confused as to what hit them. Missiles from the security forces, or was it part of the "friendly fire"

.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 08 Sep 2010 11:00

Marten wrote:..acoustic weapon...

Are these weapons truly directional or covers an area? If you look at the J&K stone pelting many a times the pelter's emerge out of narrow roads with houses and shops on both sides. Unless these non leathal weapons have good directional property inmates may also affected.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Sep 2010 11:13

Any weapon that has unknown side effects (chemical, ultrasound, microwave etc) is going to be objected by the Dhoti/Burqua crowd. Physical force, like water, plastic pellets, slingshots etc don't have that problem.

SRK pandus used to throw the stones back at the students, when those cowards aim the missiles from the safety of the campus wall.

jai · Post by **jai** » 08 Sep 2010 11:57

[googlevideo][youtube]NFRoMUorNEc&NR=1[/youtube][/googlevideo]

Here's another interesting one ...Heat Wave Gun....report claims no side effects.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 08 Sep 2010 12:29

Since we are imagining, how about crossbows? Something that will shoot a large amount of arrows spread out, or one at a time, but with not huge penetrating power to cause damage. The arrows can be made of cheap wood or plastic itself...

We need a simple low cost solution that is effective, and preferably does not require power.

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Sep 2010 12:34

by venturing into non lethal weapons, we'll enter into non ending unlimited possibilities...for example...non physical, physical....organic, non organic, dhoti and burqa (what was that), anything that reaches to the threshold of lethal, and painful enough for a mass to retreat....

and then it must be written on shells or wax balls...use on adults only...or it can be lethal, or disabilitating...

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 08 Sep 2010 12:42

Another option for Kashmir:

Fire pieces of pig meat, or spray water mixed with pig blood.

100% non lethal.

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Sep 2010 12:52

then it'll be a psychologically lethal weapon...even for enforcers who hope mass would retreat...

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 08 Sep 2010 13:04

I meant it in half jest.. but the crossbow idea is genuine.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Sep 2010 13:28

jamwal wrote:Don't know about any kind of glue, but there is a foam available which covers the person and makes him immobile.

Sticky foam from Wiki

After testing the product for corrections applications, Sandia provided the U.S. Marine Corps Operation United Shield with sticky foam guns and supporting equipment to assist in the withdrawal of UN Peacekeepers from Somalia. Problems with this technology include: the serious risk of smothering the subject; skin clean-up (the foam may not be toxic, but solvents are often harsh); "gun" clogging; targeting and firing; and gun cleaning. The Marine Corps reportedly successfully used the sticky foam guns as part of the operation in Somalia.

not sure how severe the skin damage would be..

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Sep 2010 13:39

manum wrote:then it'll be a psychologically lethal weapon...even for enforcers who hope mass would retreat...

This reminds me of a scene from an old movie "Bhowani Junction" (*-ing Stuart Granger, Ava Garnder et.al). Here a crowd of non-violent Gandhian protestors decides to stop a troop train by lying on the tracks. Firing is ruled out, and lathi charges would always get labelled as "police excess". The colonel in charge of the station security, confirms that the protestors are mainly upper caste Hindus. On the platform edge he lines up a set of scavengers with buckets carrying sewage and the collection from the public latrines. What happens next is obvious, the protestors know what is going to hit them and run for cover. The troop train leaves Bhowani Jn.

Sorry for being OT.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Sep 2010 13:39

Just in..

India shifts to 'non-lethal' force in Kashmir, but some protesters still die

And the non-lethal weapons themselves have also proven lethal.

On August 19, the first day paramilitary soldiers used pellets on demonstrators, a 24-year-old man died in the town of Sopore after suffering multiple chest perforations.

A little over a week later, an 11-year-old boy died of similar injuries after soldiers fired pellets at stone throwers in town of Anantnag. Dozens more people have been hospitalized with injuries from these weapons. At least two boys are said to be critical.

Doctors say the pellets inflict multiple wounds that can leave them struggling.

Sahai, the police chief, acknowledged that more training was needed — and was being planned — for using the new generation of weapons.

But for now, officials say they are finding it difficult to find the time to pull soldiers from the streets for training.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Sep 2010 13:43

^^^ For that matter, even water cannons can be come lethal weapons, if water with such force hits a person at close quarters. Same goes for stuff like tear gas canisters and even rubber bullets. BTW, in socialist republic the police had tested "electric batons" (which gives an electric shock, with the pain of the beating). IIRC it was first used during the last days of the previous Congress led Govt. in Kerala. See a report.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 08 Sep 2010 14:19

India is bestowed with rich experience (historically) in the use of non lethal weapons discharge.

In 1962 we had loud speakers (aka Public address system) blaring Hindi Chini bhai bhai tum ider se chale ja oh!

Some how it ended up apun chele ja oh and we landed in side India and PRC in our lands, but nothing was lost according JLN, Krishna Meanon, and of course BM kaul COAS. The objective of drawing up Chinese into Gangetic plains and then imparting a fitting reply is on hold since then.

We have come long ways baby as the cliché goes...
We now have IC driven mobile Public address system of HiFi quality.

All we have to do is mount these PA systems on Mahindra or Tata Armoured cars playing this song 24X7 in all streets of disturbed areas..

Jai Say ko taisa mila
Kaisa Mazaa Aya
Maaron ke chodun
Tere Tange thodon
Batha teri marizi hai kya...

From the hit movie Jaise ko Taisa

In 20 Kw amplifier in full treble so that the demonstrators tremble in their pants peela..

what say?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Sep 2010 14:56

Klaus wrote:
ShivaS wrote: Proven effective and easy.
Not by a long shot. Elaborating on this would be OT.

How about bleaching powder in liquid wax (hot wax at around 140 degrees) dispersed using a cannon technology? Will scald and burn the skin and is effective for protester size of about 500. Chlorine is formed on contact with body fluids such as sweat, tears and mucus, chlorine will also cause skin rash and allergy.

If someone is sensitive enough, anaphylactic reaction could kill them... Plus considering the fact that chlorine is by nature a toxic gas, its use should be avoided...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2010 15:17

ShivaS wrote: what say?

I would say

"Hellooooo John Umrao"
..from the film "Deja Vu AD 700"

(copyright Spinster circa 1798)

wig · Post by **wig** » 08 Sep 2010 15:46

i have observed that police units involved in crowd control generally have a truck fitted with a water tank and a fire hydrant type pump and nozzle on top of the cab. (similar to a fire brigade truck, albeit a different colour)
i opine that if the water that is to be pumped onto the agitating crowd is coloured with some non toxic agent it will be quite enough to scare away the trouble makers. when the water is pumped onto the agitators exposed skin and clothes should get dyed. the colour should not come of the skin and clothes of the trouble makers for a few days at the very least.
in this manner trouble makers will be identified from afar and the risk of arrest as a trouble monger will keep most of them indoors.
not to mention that in certain areas in north india getting doused/ drenched even with plain water any day of the year is not a very comforting thought

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 10 Sep 2010 03:41

Use Mercaptans. It is added in a very small percentage in cooking gas because cooking gas is itself odourless and the smell of added mercaptan warns people of the leaking gas. In its pure form it has such strong and obnoxious odour that if a can with pure mercaptan was opened 50 metres away, one would start vomiting. And Mercaptans are a class of compounds, the specific compound from this class with least side effect could be chosen. In cooking gas, I think T-butyl mercaptan is used afaik. And the one sprayed by the animal skunk is butyl-seleno mercaptan.
This is just one example. Organic chemists could suggest better examples perhaps. Other compounds with nasty odour (mainly organo-sulphur compounds) could be chosen.

Bottomline: The basic idea is the substance is gaseous or volatile liquid that will spread very fast and has an intolerably foul odour but no other health effects on people.

Benefits:
- Very strong odour means it could either be delivered by a tear-gas type shell the size of elongated bullet or the size of a lipstick
OR one could dilute it with another inert gas to required % and pack in large tear-gas sized shell
Colour code the shell based on dilution level. Use the dilute ones for general crowd and strong ones for instantaneous crowd dispersal in emergency.

- Miniaturized delivery mechanisms possible that an individual soldier can handle and carry multiple of them strapped on his chest like a bullet belt for instantaneous use.
For example: The agent could be filled in small lipstick sized can with thin glass diaphragm at one end normally covered with a cap when not in use. The glass diaphragm would break upon impact with ground when thrown by soldier and let the gas/ voltatile liquid escape.

- There is no clean up required in the area after the use unlike other crowd dispersal methods considered. Wind and diffusion will eventually disperse the gas used.

Additional uses:
If some ultras were firing while hiding behind some boulder or an urban structure and our troops did not want to use grenade because of danger to others or because they want to catch ultras alive then again such malodorous agent shells could be thrown at the ultras’ hideout. Either they will move to another location or at least their concentration is ruined by opening of a new dimension- smell.

Some pertinent info: source- http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry ... lsmell.htm

•"Who-Me?"
Five ingredients are used to make this sulfur-based chemical, which smells of rotting carcasses. "Who-Me?" was developed during World War II so that French resistance fighters could humiliate German soldiers by making them stink. In practice, it was very difficult to restrict the application of the chemical to the intended target.

•"US Government Standard Bathroom Malodor"
American chemists developed this combination of eight molecules, said to emit a stench resembling that of human feces, to test the effectiveness of air fresheners and deodorizers.