Indian Military Aviation

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2011 17:36

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ Not you. Expect that from phoren media. Just being sarcastic.

chacko mone I was also being sarcastic. The foreign media do that and Indians will often believe that because many believe that fellow Indians are liars or may be trying to fool us. This is a heavy problem of indoctrination and lack of belief in India and Indians among other Indians.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 19 Oct 2011 18:18

Read the last para for DDMites of this article.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 19 Oct 2011 18:41

P Chitkara wrote:Read the last para for DDMites of this article.

Gupta said that there is no clue about the pilot. He said after reaching near the wreckage they can tell whether pilot has ejaculated safely. "We have informed the Army authorities too and Army is sending its chopper to spot the exact location of wreckage lying in the hll top," he added.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Oct 2011 18:52

shiv wrote:chacko mone I was also being sarcastic. The foreign media do that and Indians will often believe that because many believe that fellow Indians are liars or may be trying to fool us. This is a heavy problem of indoctrination and lack of belief in India and Indians among other Indians.

Yes, that's correct. That was whet i was referring to. Safeed chamdi is always right.

BTW, Shiv i will tell you another story on the K-13 Missile testing which you are mentioning. When it was being tested in a remote place, a young engineer was supposed to join the place. Before he set out his journey, he got a message "bring 5 kg of rice." (not the exact words though)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2011 19:24

chackojoseph wrote: BTW, Shiv i will tell you another story on the K-13 Missile testing which you are mentioning. When it was being tested in a remote place, a young engineer was supposed to join the place. Before he set out his journey, he got a message "bring 5 kg of rice." (not the exact words though)

Chacko - I think the missile was tested near Jamnagar in the early 1970s. I will tell you a story of rural Gujarat from 2011. A person who did a rural stint there pointed out that while the people were hospitable, the only food available were rotis and some bhaji, taken along with fresh milk and some jaggery. This would drive a South Indian crazy if he wanted rice. Hence the rice.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Oct 2011 19:33

shiv wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Chacko - I think the missile was tested near Jamnagar in the early 1970s. I will tell you a story of rural Gujarat from 2011. A person who did a rural stint there pointed out that while the people were hospitable, the only food available were rotis and some bhaji, taken along with fresh milk and some jaggery. This would drive a South Indian crazy if he wanted rice. Hence the rice.

Yes, possible. I am forgetting the finer details (Else I will have to pick up the phone and ask

)

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Oct 2011 19:50

Paki forums where so into celebration mode that they completely forgot about their own Mirage crash today

, Hope Mig pilots is safe and sound

Fighter jet crashes in Balochistan, pilot dies: PAF

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Oct 2011 20:00

shiv wrote:AM Rajkumar has something to say about the K-13. Its seeker had a very narrow angle of view facing forwards. If a target was acquired the pilot would hear an audible tone and he had to gently point the whole aircraft in a direction where the audible whine became loudest before firing the missile. Presumably a quick maneuver would make the seeker lose its lock. IAF pilots complained that they would rather have a light in the cockpit when the seeker picked up a target instead of this audible whine. This was never implemented. It was a simple enough thing to do but it was not implemented even when the K-13 received a radar seeker.

BTW, wasn't Kiccha responsible for testing the K-13?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2011 20:38

chackojoseph wrote:
BTW, wasn't Kiccha responsible for testing the K-13?

Possibly much earlier than Raj. Don't know for sure.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Oct 2011 14:38

IAF to Hire Copters for Operational Needs
The Indian Express

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Oct 2011 14:42

IAF Discloses Locations of Border Posts
The Indian Express

IAF Discloses Locations of Border Posts
Manu Pubby
Thu Oct 20, 2011

New Delhi : The Indian Air Force (IAF) has landed in a difficult spot after it disclosed locations and precise coordinates of sensitive forward posts of the Army along the Pakistan and China border in an open commercial tender posted on government websites.

The precise location of more than 80 forward landing posts, along with details of altitude and dimensions of helipads were given away in an open tender for hiring of private helicopters to carry supplies to forward locations along the border which was first reported by The Indian Express.

The disclosure is being seen as a violation of service rules, given that the information is officially classified as ‘restricted’ by the Defence Ministry. The disclosure also has security implications given that the the geographic coordinates have given away the precise location of a bulk of the Army’s forward locations and camps along the two borders.

The helipads include Chuna, Taksing, Topukhar and Manigong along the Sino-Indian border in Arunachal Pradesh and Pharkian Gali, Kanzalwan, Niru, Z Gali and Baraub along the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir.

Sources said while information regarding the location of forward bases can also be gathered with the use of satellite imagery, the exact coordinates that have been disclosed officially confirm their positions, making them easy targets. “This kind of information is not meant for public circulation. Even within the military, this information is classified as restricted,” a defence official said.

The details were posted in a 33-page tender for hiring helicopters from the private and public sectors to meet operational needs in border areas due to acute shortages and the low serviceability of its existing transport fleet.

It is learnt that the move to hire private choppers to ferry cargo and personnel to forward posts had been cleared by the Army and Defence Ministry but details disclosed that include the precise loads to be carried to each location have come as a shock. A similar tender to hire choppers issued earlier this year did not get adequate response, prompting the disclosure of locations to attract private and public firms.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2011 15:30

there are no pvt 'leasing cos' in India that I know of who could provide a large fleet of transport helis to cart around military cargo.

is is intended to foreign cos like some in eastern europe who might be having some stock of Mi17?

its not as if these details would be hidden from satellite photos.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Oct 2011 15:53

It could well be a feint.. Its highly unlikely that a force praised for its professionalism would make such a silly, but grave, mistake..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2011 15:57

Bala Vignesh wrote:It could well be a feint.. Its highly unlikely that a force praised for its professionalism would make such a silly, but grave, mistake..

No. Some computer data entry operator would actually have made a silly mistake. Someone's head will roll.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Oct 2011 16:43

Singha wrote:there are no pvt 'leasing cos' in India that I know of who could provide a large fleet of transport helis to cart around military cargo.

is is intended to foreign cos like some in eastern europe who might be having some stock of Mi17?

its not as if these details would be hidden from satellite photos.

Could it be intended for Pawan Hans. Allowing them to build capability in order to supplement the MOD airlift capability in times of need.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2011 19:10

I fail to understand what is truly secret about logistical helipads. people are looking at google earth and id'ing things down to the type of radar and SAM these days, apart from detailed analysis of 'secret' nuclear storage and handling sites.

the game has changed. you, me and everyone on earth is a player now. our laws were enacted in an era where entry to the playing field was restricted to national agencies only.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2011 19:18

If heads roll, && the information is wrong, then perhaps the intended mis-information helped safeguard the real secrets[why not take this way?]. Now, we have to only prove those information is really classified info.

IMO, all major power countries have satellites which can zoom on any coordinate and lock it. If we can come up with a terrain showing top view buildings and platforms that merges with the terrain even at 30-45* angle from all sides, then we could cheat satellites.

Now, having given the location, they need only to zoom in now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2011 19:22

Singha wrote:I fail to understand what is truly secret about logistical helipads. people are looking at google earth and id'ing things down to the type of radar and SAM these days, apart from detailed analysis of 'secret' nuclear storage and handling sites.

the game has changed. you, me and everyone on earth is a player now. our laws were enacted in an era where entry to the playing field was restricted to national agencies only.

Well the army did say that the information which would have required an adversary to do some searching, was presented on a platter to them by the IAF. I would definitely dub that a stupid act by the IAF, if true. Not to be repeated.

I worry about some of these things because Indians are babes in the wood when it comes to the Internet. No I am not talking about the 0.001% Indian techies. It's the other 1 billion who are throwing all sorts of info on to the net. Most is personal and useless info but the imagination that the net is private is a stupid disease that affects some in the armed forces as well.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Oct 2011 20:22

Singha wrote:I fail to understand what is truly secret about logistical helipads. people are looking at google earth and id'ing things down to the type of radar and SAM these days, apart from detailed analysis of 'secret' nuclear storage and handling sites.
the game has changed. you, me and everyone on earth is a player now. our laws were enacted in an era where entry to the playing field was restricted to national agencies only.

++1, with Google earth, everything is readily available, with Google Earth and Wikimapia one can ID every base, air field, heli pad etc (unless it has been deliberately blurred at the instance of GOI). I see Pshycops here.. if it causes Salwar / robe shiver well and good, no need to have Dhoti shiver.

just remember, ACM Naik posed before Arudra Radar in Naliya AFB and reeled out names of ALGs and AFB during his farewell interview with Nitin G on NDTV!!!
on the contra, this could be some lowlife babu, re-kindling the turf war between IAF and IA!?!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Oct 2011 20:33

^^ Smells Fishy. There are no cargo air / heli transport operators in India. Pawan Hans has hands full with ONGC & other offshore customers. Most importantly, there are no private or PSU pilots with the requisite skills to fly into these difficult terrain where the weather is in best cases bad and in most cases worse. Wind & Met conditions in ridges and valleys require months of patient training and mentoring that IA and IAF does. I doubt anyone else has made such investments in pilot training.

Like it or not, Army Aviation definitely needs organic medium lift choppers.

I remember GoI paying GE to exclusively buy NE and J&K mapping and deny it to others.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Oct 2011 20:52

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:I fail to understand what is truly secret about logistical helipads. people are looking at google earth and id'ing things down to the type of radar and SAM these days, apart from detailed analysis of 'secret' nuclear storage and handling sites.

the game has changed. you, me and everyone on earth is a player now. our laws were enacted in an era where entry to the playing field was restricted to national agencies only.
Well the army did say that the information which would have required an adversary to do some searching, was presented on a platter to them by the IAF. I would definitely dub that a stupid act by the IAF, if true. Not to be repeated.

...

IMO, Singha is right in that any country with decent intelligence agency and interest in Indian military would already have these data. It's not a secret.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Oct 2011 20:59

tsarkar wrote:^^ Smells Fishy. There are no cargo air / heli transport operators in India. Pawan Hans has hands full with ONGC & other offshore customers. Most importantly, there are no private or PSU pilots with the requisite skills to fly into these difficult terrain where the weather is in best cases bad and in most cases worse. Wind & Met conditions in ridges and valleys require months of patient training and mentoring that IA and IAF does. I doubt anyone else has made such investments in pilot training.

Like it or not, Army Aviation definitely needs organic medium lift choppers.

I remember GoI paying GE to exclusively buy NE and J&K mapping and deny it to others.

IAF orders for additional 80+59 choppers are starting to be delivered from this month onwards and will take sometime to be operationalized. The private outsource is a temporary measure ... and which will potentially help develop private helo operators as additional resource (especially in times of war and shortages). Think of it like a private "merchant navy" with the capacity to hire more as needed. This is a trend in all armed forces nowadays.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2011 21:05

srai wrote: IMO, Singha is right in that any country with decent intelligence agency and interest in Indian military would already have these data. It's not a secret.

I actually disagree with that assertion. I think it is naive to imagine that because of Google earth and us, every country with Sat surveillance will know. that is actually naive nonsense. The army is less stupid than we are. They take pains to hide stuff from satellites in pretty much the same way that our nuclear test preparations were hidden. And we have our own satellites to ensure that the preparations they make are not seen or not seen easily. That is why the Army categorically stated that stuff that an adversary would have had to work hard to find out has been given away easily. The Air Force has gone and made that stuff public on the internet and we are whistling nonchalantly and imagining that al iz wel. Al iz not well. It is a stupid mistake that should not have occurred, But now that it has occurred it must not occur again.

We are the forum who call Barkha Dutt "Darkha Butt" and attack her colleague on here with our jingoism blaming her for war deaths. But it does appear that we are as dumb as we thought she was. The army says stuff was given away and we say stupid things like "It's a babu conspiarcy to spark and Army-Air Force rift". That goddam rift is 60 years old and just because we saw that last week in the papers some bright bulbuddin excuses stupidity with the nearest excuse available. Amazing Darkha Buttness on show.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Oct 2011 00:20

Singha wrote:I fail to understand what is truly secret about logistical helipads. people are looking at google earth and id'ing things down to the type of radar and SAM these days, apart from detailed analysis of 'secret' nuclear storage and handling sites.

the game has changed. you, me and everyone on earth is a player now. our laws were enacted in an era where entry to the playing field was restricted to national agencies only.

They want foreign operators to work in that region

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Oct 2011 00:42

^^Who wants foreign operators? Operating on what? This goof-up was by someone in the IAF, not the govt. or the media.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Oct 2011 00:48

Acharya wrote:They want foreign operators to work in that region

who are they and why would they want this ?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Oct 2011 01:16

So that the region - 'southern Tibet' will be known as Indian territory

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Oct 2011 05:39

you don't need foreign operators to engage in military supply to do that.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Oct 2011 21:17

India Oman Air Exercise 'Eastern Bridge II' Concludes at Jamnagar

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 22 Oct 2011 23:36

self deleted

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Oct 2011 00:09

Saptarishi, there are some dozen more topics where you could post this. Go on, go on.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 23 Oct 2011 07:38

SORRY BUDDY,,,,

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Oct 2011 07:42

kindly move to an appropriate thread, either china mil or Indian defence R&D thread and delete this post.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 18:19

Please have a look at this fantastic videos of land gear test on F/A-18. It is simply amazing and I marvel at the level of engineering required to achieve something lke this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzCwTwGTks

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 24 Oct 2011 21:23

Apparently the cheetal incident happened because they were going in to rescue another chopper which was downed due to mech. failure. Any news on what happened to that chopper?

also i heard there was a similar incident in 2007 where a pilot was shot or something can someone tell me abt that?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Oct 2011 21:46

Rahul M wrote:you don't need foreign operators to engage in military supply to do that.

Wish 'Auxiliary Air Force' was around to handle such an assignment.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Oct 2011 23:47

MMRCA Bids To Be Opened On November 4

Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition are to be opened on Friday, November 4.

-Ankit

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Oct 2011 02:03

SAAB pitches "Pipeline Protection Aircraft"

Bushke today said the 2000 MPA aircraft could be used for pipeline protection and for anti-terrorism surveillance. “We have a good product in 2000 MPA and we are trying to strike a good offer here,” he added.

Why does navy need a sea borne "pipeline protection" aircraft ?
Is it for offshore rigs, or is the gas from South pars - North dome coming ourway

Saab 2000 MPA Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft

The Saab 2000 MPA encompasses all the key ingredients of a successful MPA. Long range, long endurance, fast transit time, high dash speed and long time on station.

With 350 knot (TAS) high-speed dash capability the aircraft can arrive on an incident quickly and stay on station for extended periods of time providing continuous surveillance coordination and communication. The perfect mix of airframe, engine, sensors and C4I capability.

High quality 360° maritime surveillance radar
High quality multi mode electro-optical sensor
Advanced C4I Mission System
Automatic Identification System (AIS)
Identify Friend of Foe (IFF)
Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
Self-Protection System (SPS)
SATCOM and data link solutions

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Oct 2011 07:18

21 additional Hawk Mk132s to be acquired for the Surya Kirans ! Total Hawks in the IAF and IN will then total 144..

link to Broadsword blog

The IAF has initiated the procurement of 21 additional Hawk aircraft, built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore. Hawk advanced jet trainers would allow SKAT to fly faster, turn tighter and manoeuvre more spectacularly, than was possible with the vintage Kiran Mark II trainer aircraft that they have flown since 1996.

With the additional Hawk procurement underway, HAL chief, Ashok Nayak told Business Standard that HAL would build another 21 Hawks as soon as it completes the 123 aircraft, ordered by the IAF and the Indian Navy. “The IAF has initiated the follow-on procurement of 21 additional Hawks from BAE Systems. These are mainly for its aerobatics team, but also to replace the couple of Hawks that have been lost in crashes,” says Ashok Nayak, the HAL Chairman.
....

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 25 Oct 2011 07:22

Kartik wrote:21 additional Hawk Mk132s to be acquired for the Surya Kirans ! Total Hawks in the IAF and IN will then total 144..

link to Broadsword blog

The IAF has initiated the procurement of 21 additional Hawk aircraft, built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore. Hawk advanced jet trainers would allow SKAT to fly faster, turn tighter and manoeuvre more spectacularly, than was possible with the vintage Kiran Mark II trainer aircraft that they have flown since 1996.

With the additional Hawk procurement underway, HAL chief, Ashok Nayak told Business Standard that HAL would build another 21 Hawks as soon as it completes the 123 aircraft, ordered by the IAF and the Indian Navy. “The IAF has initiated the follow-on procurement of 21 additional Hawks from BAE Systems. These are mainly for its aerobatics team, but also to replace the couple of Hawks that have been lost in crashes,” says Ashok Nayak, the HAL Chairman.
....

Couple of Hawks? I thought only crashed in Bidar..