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AMCA News and Discussions

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NRao
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 20 Mar 2017 07:27

Data point:


GE's Pearson at AI 17.

https://youtu.be/cMz7QdNK75c?t=4490

Mentions and shows a slide on GE F414 for AMCA.

As I had speculated GE Bangaluru design division, the Welch Center, is spear heading this effort to uprate the F414 by 10%. This arrangement should meet the DTTI requirements. Pearson, in his talk, does mention DTTI.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 22 Mar 2017 23:24

Found a slide from 2015, showing some of the stealth aspects of the AMCA under consideration (then?):

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 23:41

Infra red signature.
Heat shields around the engines?
Are they going to mix cold air with the exhaust? or an outer layer of cold air from the engine all around the exhaust like in the F-22?
I suppose the air intake and leading edges also heat up some

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 31 Mar 2017 03:09

An article from 2012, that provides some insight about stealth expectations in Indian crafts.

India Explores Low-Observable Aircraft Technologies

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 31 Mar 2017 06:47

6th gen has barely been defined. Although it will incorporate the manned/unmanned concept.

------

6th Generation Fighters are already taking shape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqah2_Avxf4

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 31 Mar 2017 07:07

NRao wrote:Like I have stated, the AMCA is a rather mature project - already.


In what way?

It still sounds very vague like the FGFA "smoke & mirrors" project.

I have not seen nor read any overall plan for the AMCA. Just some vague concepts of stealth, high speed on-board data buses, some vague ramblings about sensors..etc.

What part of the above cannot already be incorporated onto the LCA MK2? And what real advantage does it offer?

There has been no information on the AMCA's design released and no public discussion about what really this so called 5th gen plane design will offer. Some small group of individuals seem to have decided on what it should be without consulting stake holders.

Its not a good sign. I predict the AMCA project will end in chaos as mid way through they discover it offers nothing evolutionary let alone revolutionary as an aircraft.

After reading that terrible plan to make the LCA an unmanned fighter where little thought other than making the aircraft fly way points and drop its load has been given, the AMCA plan (more like lack of it) looks suspect.

Have a debate on the design of this plane BEFORE rushing ahead and making bad decisions.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Apr 2017 02:10

Have been running into a bunch of old AWST articles on the AMCA. Posting some xtracts to provide some continuity (hopefully).

New Design For India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

Feb 11, 2013.



India has unveiled an updated design for its fifth-generation fighter concept, known as the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Representations of the fighter have changed often in the last few years. But the scale 1:8 model of the concept displayed at last week’s Aero India 2013 show in Bengaluru is understood to be the final airframe and platform with which the program will proceed.

The twin-engine, stealthy, multirole fighter was first unveiled at the Aero India show in 2009, in the form of a metallic wind-tunnel model. At the show in 2011, a reshaped model saw its designers give it an F-22-like sensibility.

The final design, or at least the one the concept designers have put out this year, is strongly reminiscent of the Northrop Grumman YF-23 experimental fighter prototype that lost to the Lockheed-Martin led F-22 Raptor program in 1991.




A senior scientist at the AMCA directorate in Bengaluru says, “We have the fourth-generation Tejas on the one hand. But evolutionary technologies we are developing for the AMCA are on the cutting edge. They hope to be comparable with the best in the world. If we need a little help along the way in the interests of pragmatism, cost and time, we will study the feasibility of cooperation. But this ideally needs to be a fully Indian program. Sensitive stealth technologies will not be shared by foreign technology companies.”

A brief list of the ambitious technologies that India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) hopes to equip the AMCA with includes a panoramic active matrix cockpit, triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture, serpentine air intakes to suppress radar signature and an optic-fiber-based digital flight control computer.

Describing the AMCA as a “fifth-generation-plus” platform, DRDO chief Vijay Saraswat recently said, “Work on the AMCA will begin soon. This will involve identifying technologies and systems for the aircraft.”

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2017 03:56

AMCA layout from ADA's annual report 2015-2016

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nukavarapu » 19 Apr 2017 12:21

Kartik wrote:AMCA layout from ADA's annual report 2015-2016

Image


I was under impression that to achieve all aspect stealth the antennae were supposed to be conformal but this pic tells otherwise. IIRC khan went great lengths to have an effective conformal antennae and sensors to not compromise on stealth.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2017 12:41

Weren't they working on conformal antennas for AMCA..?? Saw something in AI2017. From the ADA AR 2016:
Development of V/UHF Conformal Antenna for LCA MK2 done.
Under Ghatak program, mention of Conformal Antenna development work.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 19 Apr 2017 22:40

Yeah they're working on conformal antennae.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2017 21:31

from where did idrw got this pic from?
http://idrw.org/official-update-of-indi ... ore-132018

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 20 Apr 2017 23:41

From some video I think. I remember seeing it somewhere, most likely a video at ada/drdo stalls.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby malushahi » 21 Apr 2017 00:36


ramana
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 21 Apr 2017 01:45

malushahi wrote:^^^ ada annual report, pg 31



I thought from their secret sources!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 22 May 2017 00:07

India pushing full steam ahead on stealth fighter plane project

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said

India is pushing full steam ahead on its plan to build an indigenous stealth fighter plane amid an uncertainty surrounding the proposed India-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), a top government official said on Friday.

While the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) is still on the drawing board, doubts over the multi-billion dollar programme to develop the stealth fighter with the Russians appears to have lent fresh urgency to the AMCA project. Only the US, Russia and China have such programmes.

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.

India plans to cooperate with foreign military contractors on the AMCA project but no decision has been taken so far. European and American firms have offered technical consultancy for the stealth fighter programme.

Sources said India has also conveyed to Russia that the FGFA project should bring in technology that benefits the proposed Indian programme.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

“It’s too early to even speculate about that as we have not even tested the AMCA airframe. That’s still around a year away. So all options are open,” the sources said.

The IAF has 33 fighter squadrons compared to an optimum strength of 42. It is hoping to beef up its combat potential with the induction of the Tejas light combat aircraft, more Sukhoi-30s, Rafale jets, the FGFA and a medium-weight fighter that could be built in India in collaboration with a foreign vendor.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 07:59

Kartik wrote:AMCA layout from ADA's annual report 2015-2016
Image


It looks so much like the Mitsubishi's Shinshin.

Image

With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?
Russian planes (Su-30, Mig-29) have their engines spaced far apart which gives it the ability to turn in creative ways.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 08:39

DRDO needs to start X-plane (experimental aircraft) projects to test out various concepts in parallel with working on deployable aircraft like AMCA.

Working on deployable aircraft does not allow for taking any design risks. That's because if the design proves to be unworkable, it sets the program back many years. The result is HAL will take no risks.

But design risks are needed to make progress in fighter design.

I was critical of HAL's proposal to experiment with the Tejas as an unmanned plane since they are behind schedule on everything.

But now I'm thinking if they don't experiment with new concepts and plane designs, there will be zero innovation incorporated into deployable aircraft.

They should pursue an unmanned Tejas prototype to learn as much as they can along with more X-plane designs. The payoff will be further into the future. But unless they develop the culture of innovation in design, we will always be dependent on foreign arms supplies doing the R&D.

China cannot cooperate with western/russian/japanese partners, but India can. Use this great advantage of becoming a hub for X-plane design with foreign partners with market sizes too small to sustain these activities.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 10:42

Austin wrote:India pushing full steam ahead on stealth fighter plane project

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said

India is pushing full steam ahead on its plan to build an indigenous stealth fighter plane amid an uncertainty surrounding the proposed India-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), a top government official said on Friday.

While the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) is still on the drawing board, doubts over the multi-billion dollar programme to develop the stealth fighter with the Russians appears to have lent fresh urgency to the AMCA project. Only the US, Russia and China have such programmes.

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.

India plans to cooperate with foreign military contractors on the AMCA project but no decision has been taken so far. European and American firms have offered technical consultancy for the stealth fighter programme.

Sources said India has also conveyed to Russia that the FGFA project should bring in technology that benefits the proposed Indian programme.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

“It’s too early to even speculate about that as we have not even tested the AMCA airframe. That’s still around a year away. So all options are open,” the sources said.

The IAF has 33 fighter squadrons compared to an optimum strength of 42. It is hoping to beef up its combat potential with the induction of the Tejas light combat aircraft, more Sukhoi-30s, Rafale jets, the FGFA and a medium-weight fighter that could be built in India in collaboration with a foreign vendor.


Too long for first prototype. IMO ADA should go for a flight prototype for Aero config testing, FCS development and real life RCS measurements in 5yr time frame. This particular prototype/s can be built with existing LCA technologies with the PDR stage aero configuration with GE F414 (whichever available version). Assembly it quickly with available subsystems without much modifications. This should let them start flight testing much earlier (a large part of flight envelop can be easily covered by this type of prototype much early in the program, giving real life data for fine tuning component and system level design) in the program. Not only this would let them fine tune Aero, RCS, but also FCS and give IAF a chance to give feedback on real system rather than only on simulators. They can even test TV on this prototype and integrate it in FCS. Doing it the LCA way (serially) would take too long time. 10yr for first prototype is simply too old school in 2020.

Things like co-cured co-bonded structure, better composite materials for enhanced radar evasion, RAM coatings, internal systems such as avionics and all bells and whistles will come later. By the time full fledged prototype comes in 10yr time frame, a lot of other things which are not depending on them will be sorted with this kind of approach. Similarly sub-systems such as Radar, EW, weapons, can be tested on modified LCA on multiple parallel tracks.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 10:45

Neshant wrote:With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?
Russian planes (Su-30, Mig-29) have their engines spaced far apart which gives it the ability to turn in creative ways.


Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 22 May 2017 11:03

The AMCA is like NASA's plan to send a manned mission to Mars - 20 years away for the last 30 years.
If they need another 10-12 years for just the prototype to fly, what work have they done till now?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 11:52

JayS wrote:Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.



Supposedly the effect of varying thrust on either engine spaced further apart helps increase rates of turn (not sure in what pitch, roll or yaw).

Also to maximize the effect of TVC, the engines should ideally be some distance apart.

This is what I read but there are a million opinions on this.

Most of the 4+gen aircraft like Rafale and Eurofighter have their engines practically sitting side by side where the wings do most of the turning.

Like everything, there must be a million factors that go into airframer's decision making.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 14:45

Neshant wrote:
JayS wrote:Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.



Supposedly the effect of varying thrust on either engine spaced further apart helps increase rates of turn (not sure in what pitch, roll or yaw).

Also to maximize the effect of TVC, the engines should ideally be some distance apart.

This is what I read but there are a million opinions on this.

Most of the 4+gen aircraft like Rafale and Eurofighter have their engines practically sitting side by side where the wings do most of the turning.

Like everything, there must be a million factors that go into airframer's decision making.


Well, probably there would be some advantage of having spaced engines with TVC, but it would be small only. Not something which would force you two put engines apart just for that. And Su-27, MiG-29 can do a lot of funky stuff even without TV.


And the reason for the particular config of Su-27 and Mig29 is because they have lifting body design where the channel between the engine pods helps generate a significant amount of lift from the fuselage. But those were the old days. Now with blended body, one could get similar fuselage lift even without having such channel.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 May 2017 15:16

Neshant wrote:With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?





Japan's next fighter (Shin Shin is a mere technology demonstrator), KF-X , AMCA or TF-X will all require 5th generation or 5+ generation propulsion in the absence of which there will be considerable pressure on the aero guys from a design, system and weight perspective. That is likely the performance limiting factor for these designs at least in the first half of their service life as better engines are developed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Liu » 25 May 2017 13:39

<POOF>

Admin note: you are not going to give your "opinions", which are nothing but baiting, so please post only URLs and their interpretations. Next ban is going to be permanent


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