AMCA News and Discussions

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brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 22:37

Philip wrote:The F-35 is far too expensive for most nations and those outside the NATO bloc will never get yheir hands on one even if they havd the moolah.


Count the number of customers the F-35 has currently secured in North America, Europe and Asia. A vast portion of the ME market, barring Israel and Turkey, is yet untapped and will likely be opened up in the 2020's (KSA, UAE, Qatar, Jordan etc). The F-35 essentially has the vast majority of the F-16 and F/A-18 market covered. This then leaves other nations who also have the ability to, or want to develop the capability of developing 5th generation aircraft. Out of these, South Korea and Turkey (besides India) have announced plans, with the South Koreans even beginning fabrication of their first TD unit. Notice that all those designs are twin engined aircraft with overall thrust in the 180-200 kN class? Why do you think this is? Why do you think ADA and HAL are also sticking in this ballpark, and why Japan is also looking at a twin engined bird? Why have the Chinese put out two twin engined 5th generation aircraft?

What do you know that these nations do not?

Perhaps when you actually get into the technical specifics such as putting out a meaningful payload, or the ability to go a decent distance and actually perform the missions that require a new aircraft to replace older aircraft the idea of a single engine fighter in this class does not make sense for many of these teams?

If you want to actually develop a SE 5th generation aircraft that can cater to the F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, and Gripen replacement market then you essentially need to start off with a 180-190 kN thrust engine that has enough growth possibility to eventually deliver 220+ kN of thrust over its life as fighters usually require more thrusts over time as they add capability. The risk associated an engine program in this class is SIGNIFICANT and most would rather look to field a twin engined aircraft as there are many many options to choose from in the 20-22K lb thrust class and this significantly reduces the overall risk to the program.

If you have actually done some hard analysis then by all means share what you think the market size for a SE 5th Gen. aircraft is, what attributes (performance and cost) the said aircraft should possess to gain a threshold share within this market, and what fleet replacement needs (or additional incremental capability) such an aircraft offers for the various legacy aircraft operators out there and why the current and planned market options (F-35, KFX, TFX, AMCA, J-31 etc) cannot cater to that need.

kit
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 23 Feb 2019 03:39

brar_w wrote:
Philip wrote:The F-35 is far too expensive for most nations and those outside the NATO bloc will never get yheir hands on one even if they havd the moolah.


Count the number of customers the F-35 has currently secured in North America, Europe and Asia. A vast portion of the ME market, barring Israel and Turkey, is yet untapped and will likely be opened up in the 2020's (KSA, UAE, Qatar, Jordan etc). The F-35 essentially has the vast majority of the F-16 and F/A-18 market covered. This then leaves other nations who also have the ability to, or want to develop the capability of developing 5th generation aircraft. Out of these, South Korea and Turkey (besides India) have announced plans, with the South Koreans even beginning fabrication of their first TD unit. Notice that all those designs are twin engined aircraft with overall thrust in the 180-200 kN class? Why do you think this is? Why do you think ADA and HAL are also sticking in this ballpark, and why Japan is also looking at a twin engined bird? Why have the Chinese put out two twin engined 5th generation aircraft?

What do you know that these nations do not?

Perhaps when you actually get into the technical specifics such as putting out a meaningful payload, or the ability to go a decent distance and actually perform the missions that require a new aircraft to replace older aircraft the idea of a single engine fighter in this class does not make sense for many of these teams?

If you want to actually develop a SE 5th generation aircraft that can cater to the F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, and Gripen replacement market then you essentially need to start off with a 180-190 kN thrust engine that has enough growth possibility to eventually deliver 220+ kN of thrust over its life as fighters usually require more thrusts over time as they add capability. The risk associated an engine program in this class is SIGNIFICANT and most would rather look to field a twin engined aircraft as there are many many options to choose from in the 20-22K lb thrust class and this significantly reduces the overall risk to the program.

If you have actually done some hard analysis then by all means share what you think the market size for a SE 5th Gen. aircraft is, what attributes (performance and cost) the said aircraft should possess to gain a threshold share within this market, and what fleet replacement needs (or additional incremental capability) such an aircraft offers for the various legacy aircraft operators out there and why the current and planned market options (F-35, KFX, TFX, AMCA, J-31 etc) cannot cater to that need.


I think i understand your point ; the single-engine fighter you are alluding to is the MWF that is the LCA mark 2 , meaning it will replace the low end of the mix, the high end is the AMCA is the stealth class heavy fighter in evolution., its just that Indians do things in increments but they will get there., what flies now ( Indian Standard Time :mrgreen: ) is better than a superfighter on the drawing boards.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 03:44

Philips usual rants have been deleted.

Please get back to quality discussion on the AMCA.

Thanks.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 03:46

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.


A non-full stealth version, use internal bay weapons only if available. Use the exact tech that is available for MK2. Once the stealth version is available with new weapons & tech, upgrade them if required.

ADA intend to have a version with external load. So create that first.

Fundamentally it will be a 2 engine LCA, with basic stealth shaping and usual composite. Will help the stealth program immensely to resolve flight testing and FBW.


You can't develop a program like that.
Stealth is baked into the design via shaping and then RCS treatments add to it.
Can't expect making a non-stealth version of the AMCA will be easy or reduce time drastically.
All the core work of developing a fighter and making it fly, fight remains.

brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 23 Feb 2019 04:01

kit wrote:
I think i understand your point ; the single-engine fighter you are alluding to is the MWF that is the LCA mark 2 , meaning it will replace the low end of the mix, the high end is the AMCA is the stealth class heavy fighter in evolution., its just that Indians do things in increments but they will get there., what flies now ( Indian Standard Time :mrgreen: ) is better than a superfighter on the drawing boards.


That was not my point. Phillip wanted what essentially amounted to a light-medium weight SE stealth fighter or essentially a stealthified MK2. I was telling him that this is not possible without serious design compromises and the price that 5th generation/LO capability extracts shifts the weight and size closer to the medium-heavy class and most will then shift to a twin engined aircraft because essentially only 1 propulsion option exists if you wanted to develop something with a SE while still retaining performance that can satisfy the MiG-29/F-16/M2K/F/A-18 replacement need.

As Karan points out, a 5th gen aircraft is designed from the inside out with all design features that aid in its Low observability baked into the design from the very start. The order of magnitude reduction in RCS required to play in that category cannot be applied on something not designed for it from the very begining. Moreover, beyond design the production process also needs to shape up for this change. THIS is the best resource on what it takes from an engineering and industrial perspective on executing a 5th generation advanced fighter aircraft. It will be a long and hard road but the spillover affects of the capability ADA, HAL and its suppliers will get through the process has the potential to dramatically increase the capability to meet IA, IAF and IN needs across their respective weapons portfolios.

The MWF is something the IAF needs in the next decade to begin to replace some of the medium class fighters like the MiG-29, Jaguar and M2K etc. ADA and HAL are responding to their customers needs as the LCA cannot effectively meet this requirement without the planned modifications. The AMCA is going to have to be a completely fresh design with a completely different approach but they need to do both concurrently because of IAF's needs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 04:13

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098821123716698113 ---> ADA's target right now is to get the first AMCA tech demonstrator airborne by 2025. The second one will follow in six months.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 06:59

Can you guys stop referencing Philip's posts. He is not to post on this thread due to his past antics and the more you respond to rubbish, more you will have spam on the thread.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 07:02

I have deleted both mine and souravB's posts. Sorry Karan.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 07:20

Rakesh to clarify..not referring to you or the other more serious posts, sorry about any confusion.. i meant all the stuff about fit and finish etc which was just unnecessary. And Philip as usual almost wrecked the thread with his rants. Don't want him to come and finish it off.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 08:38

some of the pics and the walk-around video doesn't seem to connect well for me. my eyes are getting old

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 28 Feb 2019 01:59

Aeromag show daily 1

Interview-Dr. Girish S. Deodhare Programme Director, Combat Aircraft & Director, ADA

We needed a higher thrust engine for AMCA which is currently not available. So, while developing a higher thrust engine, in the meantime we are going ahead with the existing engine that is used for Mark-2 which is the GE414. The design project has already been sanctioned. In about 7 years, we are planning to complete AMCA with GE414 right up to certification. This includes the stealth part too. We are aiming at four prototypes. Subsequently, this will be up-scaled with the new higher thrust engine.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 08 Mar 2019 05:07

Yeah, I saw the latest models of the AMCA and saw actuators under the wing. Damn.

So when looking at this drawing of the AMCA:

Image

1. In the top view, at the wing's trailing edge corner, that is not an actuator for the flaps between the fuselage and wing flaps?
2. In the front view, no actuators visible at all. They show the smallest notches on the tail but not the actuators on the wing seems odd.

So, are the AI 2019 models accurate or this engineering drawing that were released a while ago? Who knows...

Sorry Mods, I know off topic - will carry on in the AMCA thread.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2019 04:00

dkhare wrote:....will carry on in the AMCA thread.

I moved your above post to the AMCA thread. Thank You.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Mar 2019 01:07


Karan M
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 15:06

Notes Uttam has 150km range for 2sq mtr RCS. Hence, around 130km for 1 Sq Mtr, and 190 km for 5 sq mtr. Its a fairly decent radar and if LRDE introduces LPI modes, it can be very potent in the A2A arena.
We really need to have them upscale it for the Su-30. I wonder why the IAF has not already asked them to do so, time is of the essence.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 13 Mar 2019 23:46

Karan, that 150 km detection range for a 2 sqm RCS target is with 750 TRMs, right? Any idea if that is for the Tejas Mk2 sized radome or for the AMCA?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Raveen » 14 Mar 2019 00:00

SJha just tweeted an interesting development about the AMCA

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby esommuk » 14 Mar 2019 00:11

Rolls-Royce pulls out of Turkish Fighter TF-X programme. BAE systems is still engaged and will be involved in production of TF-X. BAE might not be a good choice for vetting AMCA design given the fact that Turkey is pretty close to Pakistan.

https://www.ft.com/content/164c5ee0-3d1 ... 761f19a974

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 01:27

Kartik wrote:Karan, that 150 km detection range for a 2 sqm RCS target is with 750 TRMs, right? Any idea if that is for the Tejas Mk2 sized radome or for the AMCA?


Tejas Mk1 sized radome.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 14 Mar 2019 04:42

Raveen wrote:SJha just tweeted an interesting development about the AMCA

Is it this? Please, next time just provide the tweet....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1105774556680085504 ---> And btw, don't be surprised if in the next Aero India, you see an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft model with something akin to an electrical-optical distributed aperture system being displayed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Mar 2019 06:56

Sometime back there was an image from aerodynamic studies for AMCA and what appeared to be divertless supersonic intakes. Looks like the AMCA designers are trying out all options before fsed kicks in.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 14 Mar 2019 13:27

esommuk wrote:Rolls-Royce pulls out of Turkish Fighter TF-X programme. BAE systems is still engaged and will be involved in production of TF-X. BAE might not be a good choice for vetting AMCA design given the fact that Turkey is pretty close to Pakistan.

https://www.ft.com/content/164c5ee0-3d1 ... 761f19a974


I think Turkey's economy officially went into recession.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47522338

Stay away from the sick man of Europe.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 17 Mar 2019 01:23

Not that this brings anything new to discuss, but a reference good to have (if not already linked here)

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... ngine.html

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2019 10:29

https://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraf ... ch-program
107kN dry thrust, 115kN wet.

we might as well focus on this:
https://defence-blog.com/news/japan-dis ... craft.html

x-posting in MRCA for ref

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2019 10:31


Austin
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 30 Mar 2019 11:38

Looks very F-22 ish

I wonder why they still use a Big VS instead use a smaller all moving one like PAK-FA or J-20


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