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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 24 Sep 2016 20:12

brar_w wrote:That new engine would be the 'Enhanced' which sees very little changes compared to the EDE but comes in with lower component life. I had a posted a summary of the EPE to EDE differences and the R&D portion was practically identical with very little in specific R&D that GE hasn't already done. What was earlier the EPE, had actual hardware differences compared to the USN funded work for the EDE, and those changes were never funded.

I don't think GE has any plans to actually begin offering yet another R&D program that looks at additional hardware changes to get higher thrust (compared to the EDE) without durability impact - that would naturally require additional spend at a time when they do not have $ commitment for the 4-5 years that it would take them to complete development testing of the enhanced engine changes they worked on for the USN. They are currently involved with 3 Next Generation propulsion programs that are likely to affect their military-engine business for at least the next 3-4 decades so I suspect that they would most likely wait and puruse the expected route if the USN funds it - i.e. deliver the changes the USN was interested in the last decade. That would get you the EDE.

What you are most likely to get is two thrust classes - 26,000 pounds with lower durability compared to the current baseline F414, or same thrust with much improved component life and therefore lower life-cycle cost and higher on times.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-398210/

As things stand, GE offers the Enhanced Engine (Linked to the EDE) with 26,000 pounds of thrust. This would be your higher rated EDE.

http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... hanced.pdf

Its of course entirely possible that someone can come in and spend the substantial amount required to complete development and get into testing but I would be skeptical of that since the USN's main headache is not lack of performance but lack of availability given physical depot capacity that will be a bottleneck for the Rhino fleet starting 2025 when large waves of aircraft would require SLAP. They are more likely to pursue a path that lowers LCC, and improves reliability.


I am looking for more info but there isn't much independent info - copies of a few same sources. From GE site - 2003:http://www.geaviation.com/press/military/military_2003616b.html

The EDE package includes a three-dimensional aerodynamic (3-D aero) high-pressure compressor, high-pressure turbine and exhaust frame, and lower-emissions combustor. The new compressor improves airflow and efficiency, and time between overhauls is increased from 4000 hours to 6000 hours. The 3-D aero turbine is more efficient, with higher temperature capability, while increasing fatigue life from 2000 hours to 6000 hours. These enhancements could be available for production F414 engines in 2009.


BTW @NRao - note that this link mentions possibility of F414 for LCA growth version - in 2003. Also do you know that RM12 was very seriously considered for LCA?? Volvo chickened out, due to GE pressure perhaps. Just a tidbit.

2012: http://www.geaviation.com/press/military/military_20121204.html
GE is also on an ambitious path to incorporate new designs and hardware to equip the F414 with increased thrust and improved durability. An F414 Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) features both a new high-pressure turbine and new six-stage, high-pressure compressor to offer significant maintenance and fuel savings. The F414 Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) will generate up to 20% more thrust by increasing fan airflow with the EDE hardware configuration.


Another more recent article 2015-16:
https://www.scribd.com/document/220955742/F414-400-EDE
.
.
The F414 EDE is billed as an upgrade – not a new centreline engine – but it promises sig-nificant performance improvement. The con-figuration changes are exclusively hardware, but how the performance improvement is realised depends entirely on the software.
The navy can programme the full authority digital engine control system to upgrade the power output of the F414 EDE engine to around 26,400lb-thrust. The same changes can dramatically im-prove the engine’s durability if thrust output is maintained at the 22,000lb-thrust baseline
.
.
The trade-off with upgrading the engine to produce 26,400lb-thrust is a consid-erable hike in maintenance costs. Running the F414 EDE at the higher thrust setting reduces turbine life to 2,000h (comment - same as original F414), Caplan says. This is just one-third of the current 6,000h interval.
.
.In the end, the new passive cooling system integrated into the turbine blades was sufficient to meet the requirements of the engine. GE confirms that the F414 EDE turbine is equipped to survive despite a 66˚C (150˚F) increase in turbine inlet temperature.That increase in temperature margin is the key metric in achieving either increased durability of the overall engine at the baseline thrust level, or the higher-power, less-durable performance at higher thrust setting.
.
.



From above sources my assessment is:

So EDE = Vanilla F414 + Improved HPC (3D aero, 6stg) + Improved HPT (better cooling, increased TIT by ~60degC)
EPE = EDE + new fan (3 stage fan with all 3 blisk stages)

EDE HW changes improve Durability at same thrust - from 2000h to 6000h life for HPT. For HTP the main reason is improved cooling (+66deg more TIT limit) apart from small contribution from 3D Aero. Now EPE will bring down this life to 2000h for HPT again at ~20% thrust increase - due to increased TIT to new max limit. But this increase in thrust is also due to new fan i.e. increased Mass flow rate. Since we know the Thrust can be increased easily (at the expense of life) just by tweaking FADEC, GE can easily come up with a thrust setting where EDE uses the increased TIT limit to boost the thrust, even without new fan. Life will be same (F414 level) - thrust will be more - I am betting it would be around 10% - to ~110kN (Because the mass flow rate increase is ~10% which should give ~10% increase in thrust on its own account - linear variation of thrust with mass flow rate, rest 10% due to increased TIT). I have seen mentions of 110kN F414 version that India is interested in (some forums and reports such as one by Ajai Shukla, but they are not very reliable so not posting here - but if smoke is there, fire might as well exist somewhere, who knows). And I think GE can very well provide it with same life numbers as original F414.

Looks like down the line GE simply combined EDE and EPE in EE. Same engine will be giving both options - just choose thrust setting through FADEC. The currently open contract which was supposed to be signed last year but USG didn't provided for in its budget - for sure has all 3-stage blisk which means it has EPE changes.

But now it looks like even if India buys F414, it will be the EE version, and may be India will get to participate in new Fan design. GE would not share hot tech, but Fan can be done easily, as GE was anyway going to out source it.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 24 Sep 2016 21:38

Is there any operational advantage in side-by-side seating against tandems? [re: su-34].

Should we develop a variant?

- improved space for LRUs
- larger radar modules t/r real estate
- better views and useful for WVRs
- better man/machine interface

?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 25 Sep 2016 01:19

JayS wrote:
brar_w wrote:What you are most likely to get is two thrust classes - 26,000 pounds with lower durability compared to the current baseline F414, or same thrust with much improved component life and therefore lower life-cycle cost and higher on times.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-398210/



I don't think anyone will out and out pay GE to develop something. The cost for the very high end of the R&D program required for the EPE or EE will not be trivial. South Korea is probably the only customer that could do it but we have no indication that they have committed to a higher rated variant. India has yet to finalize the initial F414 order from what I understand so I'm not holding my breath nor wanting the MOD to subsidize GE's R&D effort. The only hope is the USN and for them, given their FYDP the only way this comes before 2025 is if it lowers life cycle cost and ups engine on times. No fancy, higher thrust variant will be approved by the Congress until the sequestration lifts. They have depot headaches staring at them mid next decade and can't invest in these upgrades. NAVAIR has its hands full with newer weapons, the F-35C FOD and the new jammer.

Keep in mind the USAF and USN haven't gotten a 'service's budget' for close to 5 years and aren't likely to get it for another 5-6. What you see is the 'Congress's budget' where Congress is micro-managing Obama/Carter's budget down to program-line items. Its a consequence of the BCA and is unlikely to change as long as the BCA is in place.

Given GE is leading the thrust category they aren't going to take IRAD $$s away from their future programs where the investment is going to go hard. P&W has nearly matched their government funded efforts (ADVENT) through internal funding and are showing up for AETD and AETP at the same readiness levels despite getting a pass on ADVENT contracts. In the overall next GEW context the F414 variants are rather irrelevant.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 25 Sep 2016 01:48

^ Sure no one would like to bankroll the RnD cost. I agree USN is the only hope perhaps. India might be willing to do that only in case of some significant ToT, which again is far-fetched. EPE may never come to reality (I recently heard something about the new all blisk Fan module for F414 from a guy in the know, he's one of the top management in one of the biggest GE supliers, but I need to ask him some more details to be sure what's happening).

But tell me something which of the techs which increase endurance are yet to be developed?? I thought all of them are already demonstrated and would need relatively less efforts to incorporate in operational engine. If at all India wants 110kN, IMO EDE with tweaked FADEC is sufficient - no new Fan needed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 25 Sep 2016 03:09

EDE technology is mostly developed but you are still looking at a 1/2 to 1 Billion or so to complete what is remaining and then run an operational test program. GE has said 4-5 years from contract to operational flight so even time wise its not something that can be done very quickly. 5-6 years of stable investment and dedicated test infrastructure requires a level of commitment that won't come from anyone outside of the USN. As I said, the Indian F414 order is likely incomplete so anything to mass procure that and then follow up with a more capable variant is at this point of time a far fetched idea. The ROKAF and DAPA has already moved on their KF-X and will probably look to shore up a contract before the AdA or HAL. They could potentially look for investments but we don't know what their plans are (GE had offered the EPE to them but we don't know whether the EPE, EDE or EE configurations were selected or if they just chose the existing F414).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 05 Jan 2017 05:51

It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 06 Jan 2017 19:20

Indranil wrote:It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.


What happened to the staff who worked on LCA design?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 06 Jan 2017 19:34

^^6 qualified men or organizations?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 06 Jan 2017 19:38

I have to say that AMCA's design management seems to be progressing in a haphazard way. I can't name the org, but they (a GoI lab) are in to structural design optimization phase of AMCA's very crucial component. On the other hand, I am reading the above news. Totally confused onlee...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 06 Jan 2017 19:40

Indranil wrote:It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.


I have seen the EOI. And I was little confused. Its looks very similar to the one they put out for Ghatak. I presumed they reissued the same tender. AMCA is way too big for 6 guys to handle. We have close to 30 Structural engg in my office working only on front Wing-spar of two aircrafts, not counting those from overseas office.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2017 00:01

^^^ There can be only one conclusion. You guys are inefficient. :P Just kidding. I am confused too. These are projects of national importance!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 07 Jan 2017 00:10

Indranil wrote:^^^ There can be only one conclusion. You guys are inefficient. :P Just kidding. I am confused too. These are projects of national importance!

I'm hoping they already have several people (maybe some from the original LCA design team) and this is just to augment the team. If 6 people are going to do the entire structural design of a 5th gen fighter jet it'll take 10 years and even then we might be left with huge problems with the design.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 07 Jan 2017 01:15

I also think these 6 could be extra requirement and most probably they will be used for non critical requirements. This is normal in PSUs, I have worked for little time in a defense PSU's design department and every project had 1 or 2 contract engineers for helping the team

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jan 2017 05:36


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 09 Jan 2017 05:58



Sounds good. The IAF can rest easy now. :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Jan 2017 06:10


Tirupati: With the induction of light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas into the Indian Air Force this year, the Aeron-autical Development Age-ncy (ADA) which has jointly developed the fourth generation aircraft with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is now ready to develop the stealth fighter aircraft.

“The concept and feasibility study for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has completed and submitted to the government. We are awaiting the government’s approval to develop prototype vehicles (PVs),” P.Ramachandra, director, admin and planning, Aero-nautical Development Agency told this newspaper on the sidelines of the Indian Science Congress.

It is designed to be the 25-tonne class aircraft whereas the Tejas is weighing only about 10 tonnes. It will have the range of 2,800 km.

“The aircraft will have many stealth features for evading radars. The weap-ons and antennas will not be visible from outside. This makes the aircraft heavy and it will have twin-engines,” he said.

This was envisioned as a replacement for the British Jaguar and Mirage 2000 which the IAF flies.

According to defence experts, the stealth fighter would be of great help during the initial days of a major war as it will allow the air force to target enemy’s infrastructure such as roads, railways, airfields, radars, headquarters and depots.

The Aeronautical Development Agency also plans to showcase the model in the upcoming Aero India exhibition.

Indian Air Force ordered 40 Tejas aircraft and 83 LCA Mark-1A aircraft with the HAL. The Air Force also wanted better specifications for LCA Mark-1A like mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare suit.

“We are going to carry out the changes very soon,” he added.

When asked about the prolonged delay in developing the LCA, he pointed out that the aircraft was developed within eight years after it was sanctioned in 1993.

“The combat aircraft can be customised to our requirement which was earlier not possible with the imported planes. More than anything we have saved Rs 50,000 crore for the country as the HAL secured orders for 83 LCA Mark-1A planes,” he said.

The HAL is expected to deliver 10 combat aircraft per year in the initial period and it can be expanded up to 16 aircraft per year.

The LCA’s naval version also is currently undergoing various tests at Shore Based Test Facility at Goa.

Some of the foreign fighter jets which are competing with AMCA are Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35, and Saab JAS 39 Gripen.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 09 Jan 2017 08:03

No 1 requirement for the AMCA should be to replace at least half of the IAF fighters, just replacing jaugar/M2000 isn't enough.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 11 Jan 2017 01:17

Indranil wrote:It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.

Can you please provide link to the EOI. One person I know has expressed interest...need to forward EOI copy to him ASAP. I was not able to find EOI details on ADA's website.

Thx

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 11 Jan 2017 04:21

Zynda wrote:
Indranil wrote:It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.

Can you please provide link to the EOI. One person I know has expressed interest...need to forward EOI copy to him ASAP. I was not able to find EOI details on ADA's website.

Thx

It may be too late but it doesn't hurt to try: https://www.ada.gov.in/currentdocs/EOI-2.pdf

There's a link on the top right of ADA's website which reads "PBQ & EOI". You'll find a hyperlink there to the same document.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2017 06:33

Indranil wrote:It looks like ADA is close to finalization of the external shaping of the AMCA. It has now put out an EOI for 6 qualified men who can take care of the structural design based on the above layout in about 24 months.

Does it actually say "men"? Just curious

PS - just saw the pdf - it says "manpower required"-6 :)

Never mind - but this is a call for people with software package skills. Not being in that sort if business I am discovering that a lot of jobs do not get gone unless we have people with the requisite skills in using sophisticates software packages - like CAD or GIS

Someone correct me if I am wrong but it looks like "CATIA V5 R19", "Hypermesh" and "PATRAN-NASTRAN" seem to be some type of specialized software packages.

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prasannasimha

Postby prasannasimha » 11 Jan 2017 07:20

All of these are used for aerospace vehicle design.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 11 Jan 2017 08:55

Thanks Pratik. I did see that EOI but I was expecting the words AMCA and over looked it. Anyways, looks like the last date for applying is over. Too bad because, the person I know has the required skills set.

Prasannasimha, those software packages are used in industries outside of Aerospace as weii.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 11 Jan 2017 09:09

Zynda wrote:Thanks Pratik. I did see that EOI but I was expecting the words AMCA and over looked it. Anyways, looks like the last date for applying is over. Too bad because, the person I know has the required skills set.

Prasannasimha, those software packages are used in industries outside of Aerospace as weii.

Ask him to contact them nonetheless. Who knows if they were able to fill all 6 positions. It looks like a specialized skill set that might be quite rare in India.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 11 Jan 2017 20:49

shiv wrote:
Someone correct me if I am wrong but it looks like "CATIA V5 R19", "Hypermesh" and "PATRAN-NASTRAN" seem to be some type of specialized software packages.


CATIA - CAD s/w used for 3D modelling here I suppose. As such its very extensive package and has many features spanning entire Product Life Cycle Management including support for manufacturing.

Hypermesh - Meshing s/w. Used for meshing the 3d model made above for structural analysis. Basically break the entire component in millions of tiny small cubes or tetrahedrons.

Patran-Nastran - Finite Element Solver. Solve Solid Mechanics governing equation on each of above tiny elements to get Stress-strain relationship, deformation for given load and so on. Nastran is made by NASA long time back (perhaps 1st of its kind) and its used by almost everyone now.

If they wanted 6 people as individuals they would have literally thousands flocking outside ADA. But they want some contractor company to provide them those 6 people as one package. There lies the rub.

Zynda wrote:Thanks Pratik. I did see that EOI but I was expecting the words AMCA and over looked it. Anyways, looks like the last date for applying is over. Too bad because, the person I know has the required skills set.

Prasannasimha, those software packages are used in industries outside of Aerospace as weii.


Still ask for your friend to give it a try. Last time for Ghatak ADA had extended the tender date.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 11 Jan 2017 21:19

JayS, the tender calls out manpower supply similar to Ghatak one as you have pointed it out. 6 folks of experience level 5-7 years supplied by one organization...not individual contributors. The interested person just wanted to try...he is not part of any org. I am really surprised by ADA's thought process. Asking onlee for 5-6 folks! Dunno what difference or significant contribution can be availed by such small number of engineers. I have a feeling that these tenders are more for optics purposes rather than to be of any significance!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jan 2017 21:44

Like I had already posted earlier PSUs in India have the habit of temporary hiring of people. They are over and above the authorised permanent strength of the project. They are called contract engineers, used for mostly auxiliary work to help the team and cannot continue beyond a certain period

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 02 Feb 2017 00:27

How come others don't get to these news and only IDRW guys are able to?

Initial requirements for AMCA currently been discussed between ADA and IAF is 115-120 aircraft to replace its current fleet of 60 Mig-29UPG and 50+ Mirage-2000 when they are up for retirement post-2030. IAF is clear that AMCA will replace all Medium class Combat jet in its current fleet but it is still an initial estimate since Indian Airforce also has 120 Jaguar Strike aircraft which all will be gone by 2030, which too requires replacement but Jaguar replacement might also come in the procurement of LCA-Tejas MK2.

http://idrw.org/latest-update-on-amca-n ... ore-123314


The hilarious aspect is they warn you not to cut+paste or link while they do all that. They don't own this public news. AMCA, LCA are from public tax payer money

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ranjan.rao » 02 Feb 2017 02:37

is it really feasible to get the AMCA up and flying with FOC in next 13 years, when these planes will be up for replacement. I had worked in similar situation when everyday we're fighting everyday but missing out the bigger picture...Hope the powers that be are thinking that 13 years will pass just like that and in that we may have a non namo govt

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Feb 2017 06:16

SaiK wrote:How come others don't get to these news and only IDRW guys are able to?

Initial requirements for AMCA currently been discussed between ADA and IAF is 115-120 aircraft to replace its current fleet of 60 Mig-29UPG and 50+ Mirage-2000 when they are up for retirement post-2030. IAF is clear that AMCA will replace all Medium class Combat jet in its current fleet but it is still an initial estimate since Indian Airforce also has 120 Jaguar Strike aircraft which all will be gone by 2030, which too requires replacement but Jaguar replacement might also come in the procurement of LCA-Tejas MK2.

http://idrw.org/latest-update-on-amca-n ... ore-123314


The hilarious aspect is they warn you not to cut+paste or link while they do all that. They don't own this public news. AMCA, LCA are from public tax payer money



All IDRW exclusives are just rumours and conjunction cooked up by their team as click baits.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 02 Feb 2017 21:59

ranjan.rao wrote:is it really feasible to get the AMCA up and flying with FOC in next 13 years, when these planes will be up for replacement. I had worked in similar situation when everyday we're fighting everyday but missing out the bigger picture...Hope the powers that be are thinking that 13 years will pass just like that and in that we may have a non namo govt

It depends on how you do it, and that depends on how have done it in the past. [example: GTRE]

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 03 Feb 2017 22:02

Too early for this topic, but, an image from AWST on the UK-Turkey 5th gen effort.

Image

AMCA lookalike.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Chinmay » 04 Feb 2017 09:15

NRao wrote:Too early for this topic, but, an image from AWST on the UK-Turkey 5th gen effort.

Image

AMCA lookalike.


More like an F-22 lookalike, no?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 04 Feb 2017 09:20

The AMCA, to me at least, has more "diamond" wings than a F-22. The AMCA is closer to the YF-23, IMHO.

But, it is too early for the AngloTurk 5th gen plane.

What is very interesting is that ALL of these countries (Turkey, UK, SK, Japan) are buying the F-35.

Perhaps India should dump the Grip and F-16 And join the crowd.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 06 Feb 2017 14:57

All of them rather not buy the F-35. Most signed up early on not knowing really what they were getting themselves into. That's why there has been a trend to cut down the planes numbers by various countries over time and massive pressure from US lobbyists to stay in the program. Unofficially, none can back out of this program.

Secondly most, except perhaps Turkey, are obligated to support the US and buy US planes regardless of their concerns over performance.

The time for joining the project was back when the work for it's development was being parcelled out. Its well past that stage and not only is there no domestic R&D gain to purchasing this plane, it's end result has not been what was expected.

The next opportunity for buying it is perhaps 10 yrs from now (if it has not been mothballed!) after all problems have been ironed out.

Indranil
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2017 23:51

NRao wrote:The AMCA, to me at least, has more "diamond" wings than a F-22. The AMCA is closer to the YF-23, IMHO.

That is not the final config that they settled on. Th e final config looks very similar to this (and F-22).

Gagan
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2017 05:22

Change in wing design like this?
Image

Indranil
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2017 06:28

Yes, search for AMCA 3B-09 configuration. The highest detail of the wing was provided in this years NAL's Director's Report. It is very F-22 like.

Kartik
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 07 Feb 2017 07:05

Image

Kartik
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 07 Feb 2017 07:07

Image

Kartik
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 07 Feb 2017 07:08

Image


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