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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 19 Feb 2017 06:30

My mistake.. memory failing me.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2017 14:42


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 21 Feb 2017 17:29

So it seems that some radar waves penetrate the outer skin and then get reflected off th internal components.
Outer skin design, shape and RAM are supposed to reduce this, but seeing the air intake duct up on the RCS test stand makes me wonder

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 22 Feb 2017 13:20

NRao wrote:Top view of the AMCA at AI17

https://mobile.twitter.com/livefist/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw


Is the tail stabiliser more slanted in the newer pics ?? Good for stealth definitely

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2017 05:42

I thought someone had posted this earlier. ?????

However, this is the original date.

Just as a FYI, they can use the INS6 for testing purposes. And GE is contracted to supply 6 more INS6.

Aggressive.

AMCA Project To Be Complected In 2019: Project Sources Confirmed

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 23 Feb 2017 05:46

I don;t think its accurate. It will be 2025-2030. Its a complex project and it will take time.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 23 Feb 2017 07:58

With the LCA behind they may just pull it off

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby rohiths » 23 Feb 2017 09:00

There is no way AMCA will be complete by 2019. This is exactly how they get bad press
a) Media makes unsubstantiated report giving an aggressive deadline
b) That deadline will never be met
c) The project will be classified as delayed
d) After the project is delivered it will be branded as "too late" and we should start importing

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2017 10:32

NRao wrote:I thought someone had posted this earlier. ?????

However, this is the original date.

Just as a FYI, they can use the INS6 for testing purposes. And GE is contracted to supply 6 more INS6.

Aggressive.

AMCA Project To Be Complected In 2019: Project Sources Confirmed


Looks like some junk item. Ignore only. At the end they write:

The Above Information is Highly Senstive and Cannot be Shared Without Proper Credit.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 23 Feb 2017 10:49

Saurav Jha‏@SJha1618 : I am sorry, but there is no real visibility on the AMCA program. Like I said, a 'decision' is still three years away.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 23 Feb 2017 11:12

2030 is the right time frame for induction. Lots need to happen before we get there. Years of research and we have just started. we can get a black painted aircraft going even today, but it may not pass muster.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 24 Feb 2017 09:15

who is paying these jokers for such news?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 24 Feb 2017 20:59

SJha is right about lack of 'visibility' on the AMCA.
At least they got the 'Stealth' part correct right from project definition stage :lol:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 25 Feb 2017 01:14

Posting in full.

From AW&ST

BENGALURU, India—Preliminary design of India’s proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will begin in March, with a target of flying the aircraft in 2024 and making it ready for service as early as 2030.

As the defense ministry’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) awaits approval for full-scale development, an upgraded version of the General Electric F414 has become the likely engine for the twin-engine indigenous fighter.

“We have completed the configurations and the feasibility study, and proposed users are happy with them,” says an official involved in the project at ADA. The agency, part of the ministry’s Defense Research and Development Organization, has until now been working on concept design of the AMCA, presented in the form of a model in 2015, by which time the general configuration was frozen.

The decision on whether to launch the program is with the office of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, a defense ministry official says. Saab and Boeing have expressed interest in helping with development. The ADA official says preliminary design will begin in March.

ADA is allowing at least six years between flight testing and entry into service, in part because of its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter, which needed 14 years of flight testing. Experience in verifying Tejas systems will support the shorter period for the AMCA, the ADA official says.[/b]

But the schedule is elastic. Although the official says the fighter will fly in seven years and be ready as early as 2030, the clock cannot start running until the government approves program launch. Another program source points out that the duration of flight testing is hard to predict. Further, ADA has shown a timeline that envisions a first flight in 2025 and serial production from 2036. The Lockheed Martin F-35A needed nine years of flight testing before it became initially operational.

The engine will be chosen soon, the ADA official says, giving no specific date. The choices are the Eurojet EJ200 of the Eurofighter Typhoon, SafranM88 of the Dassault Rafale, and the GE F414, used in the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, KF-X, Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen and the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) Tejas Mk. 2.

ADA sees advantages in choosing the F414, the official says, without elaborating. Two are obvious: experience working with GE in the Tejas program and the F414’s thrust.

ADA says the AMCA needs an engine of 110 kN (24,700 lb.), well above the ratings of the EJ200 and M88. The F414-404, installed in the Super Hornet, generates 22,000 lb. of thrust, but GE is offering an enhanced F414 that it says is in the 26,000-lb. class.
GE also has remarkably rich experience in integrating the F414 and its predecessor, the F404, in different airframes.

Like most modern fighters, the AMCA will be a multi-role aircraft. Although it will be shaped for stealth, a non-stealthy version has also been planned. Features will include a weapons bay, serpentine engine intakes, thrust vectoring, modular avionics, integrated aircraft health management, and a radar with an active electronically scanning array using gallium-nitride technology. The aircraft is intended to fly supersonically without afterburning.

ADA proposes that AMCA will replace the Mirage 2000 fighter and Jaguar strike aircraft in Indian air force service. A carrier-borne version is also proposed. AMCA design work began informally in 2008 and became official in 2011.

The configuration has features that have become familiar on stealth fighters: apart from the weapon bay, these features include fuselage faceting, canted twin tail fins, edge alignment, and a forward-swept trailing edge of the main plane.

“Everyone’s stealth fighter looks the same,” says an engineer who is in charge of designing another.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 25 Feb 2017 01:53

Kartik wrote: Further, ADA has shown a timeline that envisions a first flight in 2025 and serial production from 2036. The Lockheed Martin F-35A needed nine years of flight testing before it became initially operational.


That sounds about right and they are basing this data based on their Tejas experience. Hope the government doesn't delay and sanctions this program and releases the money as soon as its possible. I wish they had done the date sharing/scheduling differently. Instead of saying 2030 or 2036, they should just put number of years required in each phase (3 years for design/2 years to make prototype/9 years to test etc. That way its not hard dates that get quoted out of context, but everyone is encouraged to add numbers together before printing another whiny story about delays.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 25 Feb 2017 13:34

India’s indigenous AMCA is set to fly on Russian technology

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than ... ogy_705808

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 26 Feb 2017 01:40


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Feb 2017 02:19

I strongly wish going for politically in the middle ground EF200. Of course, we have to nail the ToT and what ifs in the contracts.

They had a 20-30% thrust growth and TVC in the works [we could get same or better than F414 thrusts / even the massans have not done it!]



a 360* play of 15-20* is awesome.


Get this puppy fast! get the deal.. progress and I am tired of hearing GTRE
Last edited by SaiK on 26 Feb 2017 02:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2017 02:29

You don't ditch an engine because someone else ground tested a vectored nozzle, especially not so if the engine supplier you currently are working with on new programs actually flight tested its design 2 decades ago and has had it on offer across its fast jet engine families since. A legitimate reason to walk away from the GE F404/414 family would be if the Europeans were to develop a clean sheet 5th generation engine comparable to the F-119 or F135 families suitable on the AMCA, or if they truly open the floodgates on technology.

We do not yet know the anticipated timeframe for the European FCAS but if once the current French and British studies conclude they could spin out propulsion requirements. Those would however mean that ADA and HAL have to wait for a minimum of 5-6 years before seeing if that propulsion requirement merges with its own need and if so whether to invest as a co-developer. That is obviously if such requirements do come out of the studies.

Given that RR is currently on the 'watch list' as far as allegations of bribery are concerned I don't see how this will be worked around unless they wait significantly to make a call. One advantage in leveraging the USN investment in a GE - F414 enhanced, while working on developing your own enhancements is that the technology can be back fitted on the modular F414's on the LCA-MK II. You don't get that with the EuroJet so the reason to let go of the current arrangement with GE has to be compelling. In the 110-120Kn thrust class, within the broader size category (M88, EJ200, F-414) only the USN's applications have a need for that thrust bump which they are currently looking to fund as soon as the next US budget cycle.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/2-25-2017/oGPcNr.mp4

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Feb 2017 02:38

RR said it is now on zero-tolerance towards bribery and scams.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... cUAgO.html

Given that review and acceptance of an assurance at really high level, we can go for a gov-gov deal. I am still wary of the AmirKhans for the core tech. At EOD, I want to jump start our learning systems and establishments for r&d, testing, and production (JMT).

And, F414 at the projected augmented offer is not yet ready.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2017 02:51

Given that review and acceptance of an assurance at really high level, we can go for a gov-gov deal.


You can't do a traditional G-G deal because the UK Government, or any government involved in the EuroJet program has not yet funded or owns an up rated version of the EJ-200. If something like this is pursued it would be a commercial deal between the developing entity and a prospective customer.

And, F414 at the projected augmented offer is not yet ready.


Neither is the EJ-200. As far as higher thrust, and/or higher efficiency designs, components and bench testing is concerned, the GE engine has actually tested stuff and has been funded over the years to move their concepts along. Then it is a question of need. Majority of USN's strike fighter force will use the F414 all the way till the middle to late 2030's.

If you factor in the MQ-25 and its likely choice for propulsion it would not be wrong to say that the most important propulsion program for the USN going into the 2020's, 2030's and even early 2040's will be the GE F414. The Super Hornet and Growler fleets need both a higher thrust engine to compensate for added weight (Super Hornets with CFT's) and for more efficiencies (Super Growler and strike fighter configurations). Hence the USN has always had interest in both the EPE and EDE enhancements which both they and GE have funded to refine. It seems they are now inserting a program of record to formalize this into an actual acquisition plan.

Confidence in a higher rated, and technologically upgraded GE-414 comes from the higher maximum thrust at baseline, previously funded and accomplished work, capability requirement from primary user (USN) and for now at least one foreign customer that has an enhanced F414 in its roadmap (Korean KF-X).

Once you get into the weeds of it, I don't think GE or the USG will have a hard time in moving along on the technology front given that they have already done so on the KF-X (I've posted the details a few pages back) but more importantly because the G2G relationship as far as propulsion is already moving along separately under the DTTI effort. Unless there is a political change of course when it comes to this I don't see how GE will have trouble giving enough to match anything RR can offer. The rest is up to politics and outside of the technical characteristics of the product or the offer.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Feb 2017 05:06

brar ji, I am not against GE F414 maturing along on the lines of supporting both KF-X and AMCA. In fact, the more they sell, the better is the flight profile conditions it satisfies. However, I am on a tradeoff mode with current Trump sarkar approach (restrictions and newer regulations - we haven't seen yet that is in the works) - let us say, it is a political view and nothing technical about it. GE capability and maturity is as similar or better than RR. I vote them ahead of EJ200 on their market segment base alone, and stability to support the product better than EJs. I am looking for a political reason for RR (other than the RR bribery) that outweighs few points over the GEs /vice-versa.

IOW, we can't assume the same multivariable parameters that Amirs decide for themselves and apply to our geopolitical needs. I think AMCA will shake the base of JSF, raptor whole or part if not in total. There is a market for it down the years, and that is where we need GE or RR to look at., and come up open to our joint dev/production line offers.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2017 06:07

How do we even know what the political situation is? Has the Trump administration come out and provided a policy direction to the DTTI? There was a broader framework laid down by Ash Carter and Manohar Parikar. I don't think Trump has a lot of policy positions vis-a-vis these sorts of cooperative agreements particularly when there is a clear national security advantage in pursuing cooperation. While Trump may do X Y and Z from a jobs perspective things like the cooperation on jet engines and aircraft carriers don't really clash with that.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 08:45

Also cooperation on jet engines and aircraft carrier technology can be sold to the American public. Shifting production lines - even if it is a 4th generation fighter - to another country is political suicide for the Trump administration.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 09:23

India’s indigenous AMCA is set to fly on Russian technology
http://defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250680

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 28 Feb 2017 09:20

Mislabeled as LCA, supposedly the 20x8 cockpit display for the AMCA:

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2017 14:38

Ignore the pro-Ru hype,as the AMCA will certainly use tech from other sources apart from desi,but this report gives an interesting perspective AMCA,FGFA,MKI and the dev. of stealth birds for the future. One claim that "4 AMCA prototypes will be flying by 2019" ,sounds terribly tall especially as the engine for the bird hasn't even been decided! If the item in the report is true,that Ru is helping us with TVC tech,then it is possible that this may be meant for an improved/perfected Kaveri engine. Ideally,the IAF/GOI would prefer an indigenous engine becos it would be outside the sanctions regime. The TVC EJ engine was shown 3 air shows ago! I've been advocating for aeons an LCA 'tech demo" flying with this engine. Imagine a TVC LCA MK-2.makes your mouth salivate. An alternative engine would also make us less vulnerable to sanctions as of now with the US in pole position to screw our happiness should we N-test again.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than ... ogy_705808
India’s indigenous AMCA is set to fly on Russian technology
25 February 2017 RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
Russian thrust vectoring expertise and stealth technology will play a key role in shaping India’s future AMCA warplane. In the meantime, Moscow and New Delhi need to sort out the remaining issues in the PAK-FA stealth fighter.

FGFA T-50: Armaments in action
Why India needs to fast track the PAK-FA
FGFA may be armed with BrahMos cruise missiles

India is increasingly looking to localise production of aircraft. Source: Getty Images
Even as India and Russia sort out the issues facing the PAK-FA, there are suggestions from certain quarters that the Indian Air Force should look elsewhere for its future stealth fighter. This is ironic, considering that India’s indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is set to fly on technology developed in Russia.

K. Tamilmani, Chief Controller R&D (Aero) of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), says India has the basic technologies but Russia is cooperating in critical areas such as thrust vectoring.

Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency – which designed the Tejas warplane – had in 2015 asked for Russian assistance in getting the AMCA off the ground. Following a government to government memorandum, a number of Russian companies agreed to help out in the stealth aircraft project. The most significant partnership is between Klimov and the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop three-dimensional thrust vectoring for the AMCA’s engines.

Other partnerships include a joint venture between the Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) with the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design for the development of an active electronically scanned array or AESA radar, and between ADA and Sukhoi for stealth and related technologies.

The ADA has a long wishlist. It pitches the AMCA as one of the world’s top dogfight dukes, boasting “extended detection range and targeting, supersonic persistence and high speed weapon release”. Close-combat operations will be facilitated by “high angle of attack capability, low infrared signature and all round missile warning system.”

A key Russian influence is supermanoeuvrability, which is defined as the ability of an aircraft to fly extreme manoeuvres such as Pugachev’s Cobra. Even the American F-35 stealth jet – which has swallowed $1 trillion during development – does not have supermanoeuvrability. It is an indication that the ADA is aiming for a truly world class fighter.

Tamilmani says “four prototypes are expected in 2019”. That may sound overly optimistic – especially in the backdrop of stealth fighter programmes in the U.S., Russia and South Korea experiencing developmental issues. However, it is also a pointer to the Indian defence establishment’s confidence in its ability to develop an entire weapons platform from scratch after the success of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

Different planes, different roles
Sukhoi’s PAK-FA (Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi or Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces) is intended to be an air superiority warplane, with ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary missions. Known as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in India, it is a heavy aircraft that will perform the same role as the IAF’s Su-30MKI “air dominance” fighter.

On the other hand, the AMCA is aimed at replacing much smaller ground attack jets such as the Mirage-2000, Jaguar and Mig-27. The IAF will always have a need for a mix of aircraft, including large, medium and small jets for a variety of combat roles. Therefore, replacing the FGFA with the AMCA makes no sense at all.

Why is the FGFA important?
India has a steep learning curve in stealth fighter development. In this backdrop, the knowledge gained from the FGFA will help India in the indigenous AMCA.

To be sure, Indian scientists haven’t gained much hands-on experience in the project because the PAK-FA T-50 is a fairly mature aircraft for India to get substantial work share. In fact, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) – which initially hoped to get some development work from Sukhoi – has surrendered much of its quota of work.

While the T-50 may be far down the developmental path, the Russian side insists the FGFA is a different bird meant for Indian skies. “This is an entirely new project for building a new aircraft,” says Viktor N. Kladov, Director, International Cooperation, Rostec, Russia’s largest state holding company in the defence sector.

Stealth troubles: Why leading air forces want more traditional warplanes
Even if the Indian role in the FFGA project remains confined to customisation – rather than joint development – it could still turn out to be valuable exposure for Indian scientists. Here one needs to look at the substantial Indian contribution to the Su-30 Flanker programme. The Indian MKI version of the jet is now the most advanced Flanker in the world, with the Russian Air Force also going in for the same standard. Customisation, therefore, shouldn’t be sneezed at.

Synergies in FGFA and AMCA
When India and Russia inked the FGFA deal in December 2011, HAL had only 15 per cent of the work share but was paying 50 per cent of the development cost. But India’s share in research-and-development was limited by its domestic industrial capabilities. The country had no expertise in stealth, which has taxed the world’s leading armament companies.

However, India’s work share will gradually increase as local engineers and scientists gain experience in the concurrent AMCA and FGFA projects. According to Igor Korotchenko, head of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Global Arms Trade, “Russia will certainly provide all necessary knowledge and logistics support to Indian specialists, but developing skills and acquiring experience in design and development of advanced fighter aircraft takes a long time and substantial effort.”

At Aero India 2017 in Bangalore, Defence Minister Manohar Parikkar said that the vexing issues in the FGFA were being sorted out. “There are some issues to be addressed in terms of manufacturing, how it will be exported after the project is completed and what approvals will be required,” he said.

The Defence Ministry has constituted a team to look into the various aspects of the FGFA and it is likely to submit its report within a month after which things would be finalised. A three-star officer is heading the panel.

Until the Tejas arrived, India had lacked a locally built jet fighter since the 1970s when it had the Marut and Gnat/Ajeet. Both were excellent fighters – especially the Gnat, which was a scare word in the Pakistan Air Force – but were retired quickly because the IAF wanted to only import foreign fighters. India thus lost development continuity. This blunder must not be repeated because airpower in the 21st century will reflect India’s manufacturing strength. With warplanes growing in complexity and costs, and hostile stealth aircraft about to debut in India’s neighbourhood, imports are certainly not an option.


PS:For those who think that Ru needs our money to develop the FGFA,read the latest Bloomberg report in the media today.Increased oil prices have given Russia a huge bonus and its wheat exports,which were the world's largest are now playing second fiddle to oil,with producers waiting for higher prices offering smaller amts. on the market. The Soothis and their bum-chums,who thought that they could bankrupt Russia with lower prices and greater production have been completely blind-sided. Wheat,other mineral wealth,diamonds,etc., have in part made up for oil price shortfalls of the past. Putin is a great chess player.The Saudis have no other product barring desert sand! In fact they could export sand worldwide for the building industry and reclamation. They've for the first time started taxing their people.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 01 Mar 2017 22:04

And that is why they have a humongous order of 12 PAKFA, and are running to the Saudis to finance the development of Mig LMFS.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2017 23:02

but Russia is cooperating in critical areas such as thrust vectoring.


That is the only area one Russian company is acting as a consultant.

Even the American F-35 stealth jet – which has swallowed $1 trillion during development – does not have supermanoeuvrability.


Not all 5th gen planes have the same goals in mind. If supermanoeuvrability was important for the F-35, they had the F-22 to lean on.

Tamilmani says “four prototypes are expected in 2019”. That may sound overly optimistic


Once you figure out when Dr. Tamilmani made that statement, you will recognize the dog and pony (sorry) that this article is. Was SK even thinking of a stealth craft then?

especially as the engine for the bird hasn't even been decided!


Just BTW, the AMCA team was ready to use two 90 kN engines, when along came the GE F414 INS6 @ 98 kN per engine. Then India requested an updating of this engine to 110 kN (no idea where that stands). BUT, GE is contracted to supply 6 more INS6 engines. More than enough to put at least one AMCA in the sky and provide a much needed buffer for a more powerful engine.

People need to leave the AMCA alone, IMHO.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 01 Mar 2017 23:36

Even the American F-35 stealth jet – which has swallowed $1 trillion during development – does not have supermanoeuvrability.


I wonder whether writing this crap is a matter of habbit for some journalist or just plain incopetence. Just to recap, the Research Development Test and Evaluation program, and the Procurement program for the three US services that includes an estimate acquisition of some 2400 aircraft comes in at $394 Billion between 2001 when the EMD started and 2038 when the last of these aircraft are expected to be ordered (for the purpose of this calculation). It did not cost a $ Trllion to develop the aircrft. That is the total program O&S cost starting with the very first aircraft that was handed over to the Department of defense in the last decade, and ending with the very last F-35 leaving the DOD sometime in the 2060s.

Essentially take the estimated procurement of 2400 aircraft (plus change), and multiply their sustainment costs per hour by 8000.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Marten » 02 Mar 2017 00:03

Brar saab, this is the same as LCA 30 years late boohoohahaha. Let it go... the quality of the article speaks for the quality of the journalist.

Can someone edumacate us on the thrust requirement for the AMCA? Is the 110Kn engine a must, or is it overkill?
I mean, in terms of mission profile and weapons requirements and so on. We have seen multiple slides over the years, but not a compelling reason other than supercruise. How often will the bird supercruise and with what kind of loads, on what kind of mission profile?

Serious question.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 02 Mar 2017 00:58

I do not recall the numbers (and have misplaced my hard drive from an old laptop), but, the 110 kN has plenty of extra power. I recall one of the quotes where someone said they did not want to make the mistake made with the LCA (mk1 vs. Mk2).

But I do know it can use the INS6. Not sure if that engine can go into production.

Indranil
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 02 Mar 2017 02:30

Nothing is finalized. But it will take something special to delink the F414s from the AMCA program. EJ200s can be modified to provide 110kN, but who will fund it? The same goes for the RD-93. By the way, it is a wrong opinion that the RD-93s are unreliable. However, the F414s are a much safer and cheaper bet. We will only be partially paying for its development cost.

The only real threat to F414s is the Kaveri++. It is a place for the Kaveri++ to take, but the real question is when : LSP stage, SP stage or never. One thing is quite certain, with the LCA lesson, the Indian designers will not tie the AMCA program to the Kaveri program. They will progress in parallel, and a merge will only happen when the latter is ready. But expect at least the prototypes to be powered by F414s.

On paper, Kaveri++ has a lot of potential. The current govt. has been decent with the funding. If you follow that space, you can see a flurry of activities. Using western knowledge for the core, and the Russian knowledge for TVC is kind of best of both worlds. However, the latter has never been confirmed by Indian officials yet. DRDO-GTRE-Safran say that they are on the last mile, but that is often the longest. It is unlikely that they will have a world-beater on our hands in our first attempt. But, a reliable engine with a TWR of 9:1 and decent SFC, will mean that we have turned a page.

Regarding the required thrust, 110 kN is what ADA is targeting. F-22 is a lesson for everybody. It was the best plane of its time. No compromises were made with its RCS, or aerodynamics (given certain stealth boundaries) or avionics. Even today, it is second only to the F-35 in avionics, and first in almost all other aspects. However, such pinnacles of performance came at a price. Everybody has taken a lesson from that and redrawn the "desired performance" on each parameter axis based on economic and technological viability.

Almost everybody relented on all aspect stealth. F-35s banked more on avionics than aerodynamics. For them, it was real choice. And many are fel that the dependence on avionics is a little too far askew. Thee Russians and Chinese had no other choice. Their 5th generation place more emphasis on aerodynamics. However, the Chinese have a handicap: engines. They are buying the least number of Su-35s that the Russians are willing to sell for one and only one reason. The whole damn world, including the Russians know this, but they need the money to develop their next generations. No. wait! Philip sir doesn't.

The Indians, South Koreans and Turkish and Japanese are also leaning the other way than the F-35s. They can't bank on their domestic engine manufacturing capability and have gone with the Americans. Almost of them are targeting ~220 kn of thrust for a machine with the same weight as the F-35. None of them can have the uber avionics the Americans can have now. but, how wide will that avionics divide be 15-20 years from now, and how much will it tip the favour from one side to the other? Only, time will tell.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 02 Mar 2017 02:53

he Indians, South Koreans and Turkish and Japanese are also leaning the other way than the F-35s. They can't bank on their domestic engine manufacturing capability and have gone with the Americans. Almost of them are targeting ~220 kn of thrust for a machine with the same weight as the F-35. None of them can have the uber avionics the Americans can have now. but, how wide will that avionics divide be 15-20 years from now, and how much will it tip the favour from one side to the other? Only, time will tell.


Also watch the space vis-a-vis the F-35 propulsion upgrades both incremental ones to its own engine in terms of taking AETP technology and infusing it into the current F135 and creating a new adaptive engine. Same with Avionics. Quite a few things will change in 2 decades as far as state of the art in avionics and networks are concerned. A 2030's F-35 will look a lot different form the block 3F that will be undergoing OT&E next year.
Last edited by brar_w on 02 Mar 2017 16:11, edited 1 time in total.

Rakesh
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2017 04:43

AMCA scale model with bomb bays open
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 2052112384

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2017 05:24

Rakesh wrote:AMCA scale model with bomb bays open
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 2052112384


raptor-indiski

Image

SaiK
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2017 05:25

Q: where would be the hard point for BrahMos?

Indranil
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 02 Mar 2017 05:31

Won't be internal.

Gagan
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 03 Mar 2017 07:00

No stealth weapons on the amca?
There needs to be a whole family of weapons for this plane. The whole project must target low visibility weapons for carriage on amca.

Is a tie up with soko or japan possible?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 03 Mar 2017 10:40

There was an image or a mockup (don't remember which) which had an amca with normal hardpoints loaded with weapons. No recessed or stealthified(whatever that might be) pylons/hardpoints for outboard weapon carriage.


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